Author Topic: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?  (Read 14026 times)

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Offline nickmitch

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2016, 12:41:25 PM »
I don't trust any rumors that have not been confirmed by cats.
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Offline KeyBilly

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2016, 03:26:26 PM »
I don't like the implication that anyone who doesn't like the female Link option is a bigot or hater.  There should be room for nuance and differences of opinion.

As for me, I'm not sure how I feel.  It makes sense to have character selection, given the Western RPG inspiration Nintendo has hinted at.  It could make some sense if they began in a nursery or orphanage, with some magical entity deciding who to imbue the triforce of courage into.  You might even watch them play with others and see their personality, which could have gameplay consequences.

With that said, I wouldn't want Samus to be male.  Being female is part of her character, and having her suddenly be male to appeal to a larger demographic would feel wrong.  Similarly, I don't think female gamers need a female Link to relate to.  The idea is in itself insulting to female players.  As I have built an idea of who Samus is, I can see others feeling that bond with Link as a male and Zelda as a female.  They do have some balance in that way.

The main exciting thing, for me, is that they seem to be approaching the series in a new way, and that usually means more inspired and excited developers, which leads to better games.  The Zelda series needs that.

Offline Soren

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2016, 05:02:27 PM »
The Samus comparison puzzles me. She's not a player avatar. TLoZ's timeline has always been consistent in that you're not playing the same character over and over. In addition, Skyward Sword was the only game in the series where there's an explicit romantic link(heh) between Zelda and your avatar. Both characters can have the same bond regardless of their gender or biological sex.


Also: all the things you said are still possible because the choice between male or female is still optional.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2016, 05:04:49 PM by Soren »
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Offline Kairon

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2016, 05:08:35 PM »
Well said KeyBilly.

I think something that others have brought up is there's a question as to whether Link is a character or an avatar, and beyond that whether The Legend of Zelda is a defined story with characters, or a mythos ("Legend") with general archetypes.

Given that I personally connect the idea of The Legend of Zelda with the story of Shigeru Miyamoto poking around the country side looking for caves as a kid, I subscribe to the idea that Zelda is not really about the characters, it's about the adventure. To me the secret cave you stumble upon, the mysterious darkness you delve into, the bush you peek around to find a hidden space, that is what Zelda is. Someone has to discover it, sure, but that's just exposition and window dressing. The real Legend of Zelda lies in a sense of wonder and adventure.
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Offline ejamer

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2016, 06:55:31 PM »
Why would anyone be upset because you have different options in games? If you don't like an option, don't use it. Problem solved!


This is especially mystifying with Link. The character is intentionally a blank slate, and it's been pretty clearly indicated that the hero isn't the same character each time. I've played every game in the series, and haven't seen anything suggesting that hero needs to be male.
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2016, 09:58:42 PM »
While I don't care, there is an argument to be made that time spent developing options that one won't use is time taken away from developing options that one would use.

Alternately, I would argue that making "Linkle" (or some such female Link) instead of developing Zelda as a strong, independent character who is more than a plot device to reach the end of the game would be nice - but, really, it"s not like playable characters in Zelda have ever gotten much development.
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Offline Kairon

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2016, 10:10:22 PM »
Yeah, the mere fact that we know that these are different Links should give the games all the flexibility they need on this point in my opinion, lore-wise at least.

One argument against "choice" I guess is that it probably moves things further away from a very distinctly described narrative built around the main character. I haven't played the latest Fire Emblem game, can anyone speak to how well it wove a detailed story when the gender of the main character was optional?

Of course, I personally believe that Zelda games need less hard-set plot and more adventure, so I don't really subscribe to a line of thinking that will turn The Legend of Zelda into Final Fantasy.

Although I guess one question is about whether the trinity of (male) Link, Zelda, and Ganon is either essential to the Legend of Zelda, or not. If the triforce NEEDS to be a trinity (let's not forget that the original triforce was split into EIGHT pieces, not three, or was this only the Triforce of Wisdom?), and that trinity NEEDS to be cemented in individuals, what are the REQUIRED traits of those individuals?

This calls to mind a time when the Triforce of Courage transferred itself to Zelda (it abandoned it's current corrupted owner and instead "chose" Zelda) at some point in the Valiant comics. Hmm...
« Last Edit: April 10, 2016, 10:17:17 PM by Kairon »
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Offline Luigi Dude

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2016, 11:00:29 PM »
While I don't care, there is an argument to be made that time spent developing options that one won't use is time taken away from developing options that one would use.

Not really since the only change a female Link option requires is some dialogue changes that are very easy to implement.  It's not like there's anything that happens in Zelda games that would require a complete overhaul for the female option that would require a sacrifice to a certain aspect.  Plus since this is a new Zelda game with a new Link, it's pretty easy for Nintendo to make the story something that would work the same whether Link is male or female. 


Which shouldn't be hard since all the other Zelda games have pretty gender neutral storylines anyway as well.
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Online Evan_B

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2016, 02:54:35 AM »
One argument against "choice" I guess is that it probably moves things further away from a very distinctly described narrative built around the main character. I haven't played the latest Fire Emblem game, can anyone speak to how well it wove a detailed story when the gender of the main character was optional?

Of course, I personally believe that Zelda games need less hard-set plot and more adventure, so I don't really subscribe to a line of thinking that will turn The Legend of Zelda into Final Fantasy.
This is my main issue with the gender choice, which factors into the immersive qualities of the title. See, if they explained the choice of the two playable characters as siblings within the narrative, I would be fine. But the more you place the character creation in the hands of the player, the more hands-off the narrative becomes. And listen, Zelda stories have never been incredible, but allowing the players some sense of immersion is important. It was one of the hardest things for me to get over in Xenoblade Chronicles X- within the scope of the main plotline, my character had little to no use in the story, and Elma and Lynn were the main characters.

One could argue that Link was a puppet to Navi or Midna, but he has a distinct personality in games like Wind Waker and Skyward Sword. But I would rather feel that my character is a direction connection to the game world, not something I impose upon the game world. It's really a game philosophy idea, which is kind of weird, but I'm not going to throw a big stink until I actually play the game, because I have been surprised before.
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Offline Enner

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2016, 03:30:17 AM »
It was one of the hardest things for me to get over in Xenoblade Chronicles X- within the scope of the main plotline, my character had little to no use in the story, and Elma and Lynn were the main characters.

I'd argue the Cross avatar is the one doing most of the leg work (i.e. playing the game) which is an important, if thankless, task.

Not that far from how a lot of Links need to "prove themselves" for every Zelda.

Offline ejamer

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2016, 09:11:41 AM »
While I don't care, there is an argument to be made that time spent developing options that one won't use is time taken away from developing options that one would use.

...


But that's a horrible and selfish argument - especially when the option being discussed is appealing to a HUGE part of the target demographic. I still believe that guys play video games more often than girls... but it's not as huge a division as it once was and there are many guys who might choose to use a female protagonist anyway for all sorts of reasons.


(I know you aren't advocating the argument, just bringing it up.)


If it was prohibitively expensive (ie: developer time and effort) to add a choice of protagonist, or if doing so required the entire story to be rewritten, then maybe it wouldn't be a good idea.  I doubt that's the case, based on my experience with every Zelda game released on Nintendo consoles.
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2016, 12:39:19 PM »
Under typical circumstances if you took moved in a direction where the main character was more of a blank slate for the player you would lose a lot of potential for character development within the story.  But this is Zelda and I fully expect it to have a very basic and kind of dull story (but with at least one or two details that completely screw up timeline discussion) so we're not losing much, if anything at all.  This can work simply because if Miyamoto is involved the story is usually a half-assed afterthought.  Link's character isn't much beyond being a really brave and heroic person.  And then with that new-hero-each-time thing the Zelda series is unique in this being able to work without it contradicting all the story beforehand.

But I got to feel sorry for Zelda herself.  She's been waiting 20 years for a non-CDi starring role and Nintendo goes and makes a female Link instead?  I figure that if the gender option is actually happening that we're not getting playable Zelda at any point as Nintendo would probably see it as pointless with a female player option already available.

Offline TurdFurgy

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2016, 06:45:07 PM »
I don't feel as if the option of choice takes away from the character development(as if there's a ton of that in Zelda games). I expect a female Link to make the same dumb, goofy expressions and reactions to story elements that a male Link would make.

Offline Stratos

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2016, 07:37:24 PM »
Fire Emblem pulls it off fairly well for what it is. In Japan, Awakening had several story points where the dialogue changed if you were a guy or a girl, but they reduced them down to one script in the English version. It does add a few interesting points depending on who you are and what you chose (a person who tries to kill you for a greater good could be your daughter OR your wife, and the dialogue changes accordingly).

Considering how much lighter the story is in LoZ I don't see anything being a problem with a M/F option for Link.
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Offline TheXenocide

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2016, 10:22:33 AM »
Admittedly, it would be cool to finally answer the question "What if Zelda was a girl?"
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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2016, 12:57:24 AM »
I don't feel as if the option of choice takes away from the character development(as if there's a ton of that in Zelda games). I expect a female Link to make the same dumb, goofy expressions and reactions to story elements that a male Link would make.
If written properly or with the right amount of effort allocated, games have a potential to handle this idea with ease. However, there is the potential (as with Xenoblade Chronicles, I hate to cite the same title but it's currently the only reference I can think of, in terms of Nintendo-related products) for gender-ambiguous characters to be referenced less, or to have odd connotations. Would Zelda's dialogue with Link at the start of Skyward Sword have as much tension if she were talking to a female? She says she wants to ask him something, but is cut off- this moment would have a completely different connotation if the protagonist had a different gender, and that's a pretty awesome thing- if the risk to keep that sort of dialogue remains.

People argue that Zelda doesn't need to emphasize its story, or that it isn't necessary for the franchise, but I disagree. Games have to play a delicate balance with the AMOUNT of dialogue, because there can be lore-, narrative-, and/or flavor-based text. There's plenty of action-adventure titles, like Assassin's Creed, which do next-to-nothing in regards to their flavor-based text, but heap narrative-based text on the player. Zelda doesn't utilize nearly as much narrative text, but it does have a bit of flavor- and minimal lore-based text. Flavor text is what causes the most immersion- how characters react to you based on the things you do- and depending on the world the game is set in, there could be neutral reactions to a male or female doing something, or there can be the exact opposite sort of reaction. However, when characters within a game react in a neutral way to a player and then in the opposite way towards each other, it creates a disconnect that separates the player from the game world. The item-check character from Skyward Sword wouldn't be as endearing as she is if she didn't have the bizarre relationship she does with Link by the end of the game.

With Zelda, the tone of the series is more whimsical, and I would want it to stay that way. However, when the innocence and simplicity of its text is muddled with neutrality, I worry the overall experience would be quite bland. Once more, Xenoblade Chronicles X is an engaging world with interesting lore, but its flavor text and the way characters regard you is neutral because they have to give limited choice to response and encompass two genders. Zelda isn't particularly fascinating, locale-wise- it's an uncharted world filled with dangers, but they rarely boggle the mind like XCX's vistas, and you won't see any giant robots running rampant (or maybe you will, judging by the initial teaser). Thus, it's charm needs to be created by the characters and their whimsy, not by the world or the plot, which will likely involve a titular character and her rescue.

Some people say they don't play for the story, but if you're playing instead for the puzzles or combat specifically, I can't really comprehend. Text is meant to enhance an experience, and while some might argue its inclusion in the Zelda franchise, it has had mixed results that have helped and hurt the pacing and immersion of the game. I don't know how else to say this. I'm not going to decry the game if its narrative is less-complex than Skyward Sword or Twilight Princess, but I would like characters to approach and respect me based on my selection of gender. The easy way to handle this is neutrality- I'd like to see Nintendo rise to the occasion, instead.
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Offline Kairon

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2016, 04:36:06 AM »
If this game is a thematic return to the very first Zelda... well, there wouldn't be much need for characters to interact with Link in anything deeper than saying "Hey, you broke down my door, I'm going to charge you 200 rupees for repairs" or "It's dangerous outside, take this" or "It's a secret to everybody" or "grumble grumble".
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Offline pokepal148

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2016, 05:43:46 AM »
There are really only two games in the series that really actually
Why would anyone be upset because you have different options in games? If you don't like an option, don't use it. Problem solved!


This is especially mystifying with Link. The character is intentionally a blank slate,
That is not entirely true. Link's Awakening had a slightly more established portrayal of Link then other games in the series. Also, let me remind you that the Hero's Shade in Twilight Princess is a past incarnation of Link.

Offline Triforce Hermit

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2016, 05:54:58 AM »
Wow....this is the stupidest fucking thing I've heard all month.
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Offline TurdFurgy

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2016, 09:05:04 AM »
i think there's an easy solution in having a few special characters that would interact with a different gender. Kind of like how there's a couple exclusive Pokémon to each pair of games.
 I never saw Link and Zelda as romantic. Even in Skyward Sword. That love is platonic, yo. And really there can't be anything there because that would totes lead to incest somewhere down the line...
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 09:12:37 AM by TurdFurgy »

Online Evan_B

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2016, 10:20:25 AM »
Wow....this is the stupidest fucking thing I've heard all month.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I know I got a bit wordy in my post, but don't get me wrong- I think having choice of gender is not a bad thing by any means. i just hope that it doesn't hurt the narrative, even if that narrative has a minor inclusion.
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Offline nickmitch

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2016, 10:34:01 AM »
There are really only two games in the series that really actually
Why would anyone be upset because you have different options in games? If you don't like an option, don't use it. Problem solved!


This is especially mystifying with Link. The character is intentionally a blank slate,
That is not entirely true. Link's Awakening had a slightly more established portrayal of Link then other games in the series. Also, let me remind you that the Hero's Shade in Twilight Princess is a past incarnation of Link.

One Gameboy color game and an NPC (who still didn't have a real personality, let alone a gender-specific one) aren't the best examples.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2016, 01:04:17 PM »
Flavor text is what causes the most immersion- how characters react to you based on the things you do- and depending on the world the game is set in, there could be neutral reactions to a male or female doing something, or there can be the exact opposite sort of reaction. However, when characters within a game react in a neutral way to a player and then in the opposite way towards each other, it creates a disconnect that separates the player from the game world. When the innocence and simplicity of its text is muddled with neutrality, I worry the overall experience would be quite bland.
I agree with just about everything you said, but this part in particular was something I had trouble putting into words. Well-spoken, mate.

Offline Triforce Hermit

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2016, 06:06:26 PM »
Wow....this is the stupidest fucking thing I've heard all month.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I know I got a bit wordy in my post, but don't get me wrong- I think having choice of gender is not a bad thing by any means. i just hope that it doesn't hurt the narrative, even if that narrative has a minor inclusion.
Not your post. The female Zelda. I thought Linkle was stupid enough.
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Offline gamewizard65

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Re: Possible Details About Zelda Wii U Emerge?
« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2016, 05:28:23 AM »
As each year passes, I become less and less a fan of Nintendo. I honestly feel Nintendo is closer to becoming a third party developer than what any of us realize, even Nintendo, themselves. If it is true that one can play as a female Link, I will not buy the game, and I may just completely quit playing on Nintendo consoles.  No one wants a male Samus, or a female Mario, ect,ect.


All Nintendo does anymore is alienate its fans, make stupid gimmicky aspects to their consoles, that no one wants. Nintendo has no clue, period.
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