Author Topic: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread  (Read 118380 times)

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Offline Halbred

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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #75 on: October 28, 2009, 06:35:27 PM »
Oh, Pachycephalosaurus is pretty cool. It's the big dome-headed one that might've bonked heads like bighorn sheep.

Although, honestly, evidence to that is sorely ambiguous. The dome was made of fairly spongy bone (it grew quickly) so it might not've been able to withstand a full-on impact with another one. More likely, these animals went after each other's sides or flanks.
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Offline Stratos

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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #76 on: October 29, 2009, 04:05:31 AM »
You know, when I was younger, I was reading an encyclopedia of all the different dinosaurs and after reading one entry for a dinosaur that looked like a young Brachiosaurous (sp?), I theorized that a lot of dinosaur discoveries were not new species, but juvenile and older dinosaurs of already discovered species. I think the entry in question was the Vulcansaurous (again, sp? spellcheck doesn't cover dinosaur names).

Nice to know I was roughly on the right track.
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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #77 on: October 29, 2009, 12:58:37 PM »
You know, when I was younger, I was reading an encyclopedia of all the different dinosaurs and after reading one entry for a dinosaur that looked like a young Brachiosaurous (sp?), I theorized that a lot of dinosaur discoveries were not new species, but juvenile and older dinosaurs of already discovered species. I think the entry in question was the Vulcansaurous (again, sp? spellcheck doesn't cover dinosaur names).

Nice to know I was roughly on the right track.

Yes, the adult in a species looks very different than the younger offspring:

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Offline Halbred

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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #78 on: October 29, 2009, 01:04:03 PM »
Vulcanosaurus is most certainly a valid taxon. It is a "cetiosaur" grade sauropod. But I see what you mean.
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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #79 on: October 29, 2009, 01:05:04 PM »
Do dinosaurs taste like Chicken or Ostrich?
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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #80 on: October 29, 2009, 03:37:31 PM »
Vulcanosaurus is most certainly a valid taxon. It is a "cetiosaur" grade sauropod. But I see what you mean.

Do you think this is going to spawn a re-evaluation of a lot of Dinosaur species? Wasn't that similar to what happened with Brontosaurus and Brachiosaurus?
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Offline Halbred

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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #81 on: October 29, 2009, 04:15:37 PM »
Evaluating ontogeny is tricky. Without a good sample size, it's not easy to differentiate juveniles from adults. Even in this case, it's still not a slam-dunk that Dracorex is a juvenile of Pachycephalosaurus. It might just be a juvenile of an animal we haven't found the adult form of.

This is actually a big problem in ceratopsian systematics. Ceratopsians go through pretty radical cranial changes as they get older, especially centrosaurines. At least two ceratopsians that have their own genus name (Brachyceratops and Avaceratops are most likely juveniles of other genera. But without a good sample size, you can never tell.

Let's say you find Brachyceratops, which is clearly a juvenile, in the same formation as Centrosaurus and Chasmosaurus (this would never happen, it's just hypothetical). Given that all juvenile ceratopsians pretty much look alike, how would you know whether Brachyceratops goes with Centrosaurus or Chasmosaurus? Without more intermediate age groups, it's impossible to tell.

Other potential synonymes: Nanotyrannus is probably a subadult Tyrannosaurus, and Torosaurus may just be an old adult Triceratops (I'm not sold on that last one).

So I don't think this will spark a re-examination of existing taxa, just because it's impractical and entirely dependant on existing specimens. Great question, though.

Also, the Brachiosaurus/Brontosaurus thing you mention...there's no such thing as Brontosaurus, and here's why: Back during the Great Bone Wars of the late 1800's, Cope and Marsh basically gave a different name to every bone they pulled out of the ground (they were competing with each other). As a result, they royally screwed up Morrison dinosaur taxonomy. At one point, Allosaurus fragilis had nine different names.

Anyway, the same thing happened to Apatosaurus. It was found intially based on incomplete remains. Years later, another specimen was dug up and given the name Brontosaurus. Several decades later, a paleontologist studied both specimens and determined that they're the same animal. Because Apatosaurus was named first, that's the name that sticks.

This matter was further confused because at the time, the only good sauropod skull was from Camarosaurus (a relative of Brachiosaurus), so the guy who mounted the composite "Brontosaurus" skeleton thought it had the same kind of skull. This later turned out to be totally incorrect, of course. Macronarian sauropods have leaf-shaped teeth while diplodocoids have narrow skulls and chisel-like teeth.
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Offline Stratos

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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #82 on: October 29, 2009, 04:22:51 PM »
Ah, it was Brontosaurus and Apatosaurus that had the confusion.

I didn't know they were competing like that to name dinosaurs. About how many dinosaurs got screwed up in that debacle? Are people still finding mistakes from them or have all those conflicting names been resolved?

Interesting how Brontosaurus is corrected in my spell check yet other, legitimate dinosaur names like Apatosaurus are not.
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Offline Halbred

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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #83 on: October 29, 2009, 05:20:56 PM »
Plenty of dinosaur taxa got re-named multiple times. Triceratops had 15 species at one point. Now it's down to two, and that's based entirely on stratigraphy. Sauropods and ceratopsians got really horribly mistreated during the Bone Wars, but theropods turned out okay, probably because they're rarer, so there were just fewer specimens to name. But like I said, Allosaurus had like four different genera and nine species. Now there is one recognized species, though at SVP, I found out about another one.

The mess has largely been cleared up now, though. Most of the "species" named during the Bone Wars were later found to be either synonyms or completely useless. Naming a dinosaur based on a single dorsal vertebra is like "com'on." So a lot of names have been scrapped entirely.

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Offline Stratos

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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #84 on: November 12, 2009, 04:26:20 AM »
Can you recommend a book about the Bone Wars and the history of Dinosaur paleontology in general?. It is something I would enjoy reading more about.
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Offline Halbred

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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #85 on: November 12, 2009, 02:14:46 PM »
Go find a copy of "Hunting Dinosaurs" by Louie Psihoyos. It's not about the Bone Wars themselves, but it does go into that. It's more about the modern understanding of dinosaurs (circa the late 1990's) and lots of juicy interviews and field expeditions with real paleontologists.

For a taste of the Bone Wars themselves, try the excellent "Bone Sharps, Cowboys, and Thunder Lizards." It's not 100% historically accurate, but it captures the rivalry between Cope & Marsh during that period. Wonderful book (and it's a comic!).

As for new stuff, I just downloaded a big fat chunk of new papers that I have yet to read, but here's the short version:

1) Brand-new transitional sauropodomorph, Aardonyx celestae, that fills in a critical morphological gap between "core prosauropods" (like Plateosaurus) and actual sauropods. It seems to be a bipedal animal with robust limbs, a surprisingly deep tail, and a skull with a very large naris.

2) A new study involving energy expenditure suggests that any animal that is facultatively bipedal (like all dinosaurs, ancestrally) would have HAD to have been endothermic just to keep that up. This suggests, in turn, that endothermy was achieved before bipedality. Did any dinosaurs secondarily lose their endothermy upon going back to a quadrapedal posture (sauropods, ceratopsians)? There's no good reason to think so...

3) Bugs aren't really my thing, but a new Mesozoic scorpionfly with a long proboscis was discovered. Because the scorpionfly predates flowering plants, that suggests it was drinking nector from gymnosperms plants (ferns). There are plenty of surprises here, chief among them that necter-feeding evolved before flowering plants, that some gymnosperms evolved a necter-based reproductive system, and that scorpionflies developed a necter-feeding variety.
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Offline Halbred

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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #86 on: November 19, 2009, 03:00:51 PM »
The Sahara wasn't always a desert. It used to be occupied by diverse dinosaurs and crocodilians. The latter were surprisingly common and mean-looking:

http://pensoftonline.net/zookeys/index.php/journal/index

Some real gems in here, including the giant "boar-croc," Kaprosuchus saharicus, which looks like the horrible love-child of a crocodile and an entelodont. The paper is free online: I recommend downloading it just to see the pictures of the animals!

National Geographic has some CG pictures, though I can't vouch for their accuracy or quality. They do give a good indication of the diversity of Cretaceous crocodilians, though.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/11/photogalleries/dinosaurs-crocodiles-crocs-missions/index.html
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #87 on: November 19, 2009, 03:09:37 PM »
What I wanna know is, how do they know that everytime they find some crazy skeleton it's a new species?
what if it's just some abnormalty of nature and thats the reason it dies out, it was a one of a kind or very rare mutation, like elephantitis or something.

What if some future scientist found the remains of that one eyed kitten or the two headed snake. What if they found the remains of that dud from the movie The Mask (the one with Cher and the guy had elephantitis all over his face). WOuld htey think it was some new species of cat, snake and pre-modern human?

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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #88 on: November 19, 2009, 03:15:29 PM »
Do you know much about the 'Super-Croc' they found out there that has a skull as large as a human? I saw a special on it. They unearthed a near intact skeleton near Egypt if I recall.

Wikipedia entry on Supercroc aka Sarcosuchus

What I wanna know is, how do they know that everytime they find some crazy skeleton it's a new species?
what if it's just some abnormalty of nature and thats the reason it dies out, it was a one of a kind or very rare mutation, like elephantitis or something.

What if some future scientist found the remains of that one eyed kitten or the two headed snake. What if they found the remains of that dud from the movie The Mask (the one with Cher and the guy had elephantitis all over his face). WOuld htey think it was some new species of cat, snake and pre-modern human?

If you find multiple copies of the same creature then it is most likely not an abnormal one-of-a-kind specimen.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #89 on: November 19, 2009, 03:21:03 PM »
but are they finding multiple copies?

Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #90 on: November 19, 2009, 03:21:16 PM »
10,000 years from now scientists will dig up a Dachshund skeleton and discover a new species. They will then discover the Pit Bull species and the Greyhound species.

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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #91 on: November 19, 2009, 03:26:03 PM »
but are they finding multiple copies?

Most every extinct creature has multiple skeletons confirming them as legit species. Though confusion has occured in the past. Refer to Halbred and I's discussion of dinosaurs getting multiple species names attached to them. A page back in the thread.

Plenty of dinosaur taxa got re-named multiple times. Triceratops had 15 species at one point. Now it's down to two, and that's based entirely on stratigraphy. Sauropods and ceratopsians got really horribly mistreated during the Bone Wars, but theropods turned out okay, probably because they're rarer, so there were just fewer specimens to name. But like I said, Allosaurus had like four different genera and nine species. Now there is one recognized species, though at SVP, I found out about another one.

The mess has largely been cleared up now, though. Most of the "species" named during the Bone Wars were later found to be either synonyms or completely useless. Naming a dinosaur based on a single dorsal vertebra is like "com'on." So a lot of names have been scrapped entirely.


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Offline Halbred

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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #92 on: November 19, 2009, 03:33:47 PM »
Bone pathologies are very easy to tease out, and many species are known to have osteologic features that are NOT related to taxonomic diagnosis, but pathology. For example, many chasmosaurine ceratopsids have squamosal fenestrae. Their variability across multiple species and specimens indicates that they represent areas of reabsorbed bone tissue or, in some cases, injury by intraspecific combat or disease.

It's certainly possible that some animals, for example, Sereno's "Rat-Croc," are just freak mutants who are not representative of their species generally. However, that's almost impossible to actually know without an enormous sample size. Until many dozen more specimens are found, the safer bet is that its unique qualities are genuine taxonomic markers.
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #93 on: November 24, 2009, 03:08:59 AM »
Dinosaur Birthday!

Dinosaur Birthday

Dinosaur Birthday!

Dinosaur Birthday

DINO

dino

DINO

dino

D I N O S A U R   B I R T H D A Y ! !

Offline Stratos

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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #94 on: November 24, 2009, 03:13:34 AM »
I thought the birthday was tomorrow? Oh, wait, it already is tomorrow. Happy birthday, Halbred ;)
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Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #95 on: November 24, 2009, 03:29:27 AM »
Happy Birthday Halbred!

I think someone should post some Dinosaur pics with Birthday cakes.
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #96 on: November 24, 2009, 03:32:07 AM »

Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #97 on: November 24, 2009, 03:46:37 AM »

How did I know that that was going to be picked.
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Offline Halbred

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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #98 on: November 24, 2009, 01:37:15 PM »
Thanks, guys! You warm my ectothermic heart. Wait...I'm bipedal, so by necessity, I'm endothermic. Hooray!

I wish I had some cool dinosaur news to post. There was a finite element analysis of the "club" of Mamechiosaurus' tail, but I'm not convinced it's a club at all. It looks like three or four fused vertebrae that resulted from injury or pathology.
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Re: Halbred's Paleo-News Thread
« Reply #99 on: November 24, 2009, 01:47:22 PM »
Happy Birthday!

What's the best dinosaur-birthday pun you've heard today?  Hopefully it's not "Dino-riffic!"