Topic: Wii Exclusive Dead Space Extraction Goes On Rails

[NWR_insanolord]

The Wii is the place to be for survival horror and the place to be for on-rails shooters and this is a survival horror on-rails shooter. It's like releasing a first-person shooter on the 360; it's something that should be expected and at the same time is something that has to be really good to deserve any attention because of all the competition it has.

[Ian Sane]

Heck I knew this from the start, that the companies were going to be forced to create different content for the Wii and utilize the motion controls. It isn't a surprise and anyone with any common sense would have realized that regardless of whether or not Wii was the market leader.

I assumed this too, thought I didn't think the Wii would be number one.  I figured it would get completely screwed on third party support for being too different and I was right but I figured this would be from a second or third place position.  Once the Wii became number one is became logical to assume that it would get the BEST and most siginificant third party support.

It doesn't.  While multiplatform releases aren't really possible the thing is most major games shouldn't be a non-Wii game in the first place.  Dead Space is the A game - Dead Space Extraction is the B game.  It should be the other way around.  The Wii should get the A games and then those should either be exclusive or get ported to the other consoles with graphics that don't make full use of the hardware.  The Wii should be the default and the PS3 and X360 should suffer from being different.

But no third party looks at it like that.  When they make a major game they make it for the other consoles.  Most Wii projects seem like afterthoughts.  "Oh we need something for the Wii.  Well let's crank out this mini-game comp or let's port this PS2 or PSP game or let's reuse some of the elements of this PS360 game and add some lazy remote usage and make a spin-off."  It's very rarely "LET'S MAKE A BIG GAME FOR THE WII."  The Conduit is that and Dragon Quest X is that but those are rare.

Third parties should be making the bulk of their games with the Wii in mind and with PS3 and X360 development as an afterthought.  Make the next sequel for your big series for the Wii and make full use of it and then later see if you can get the controls to work on the other consoles.

Dead Space Extraction is not a major third party effort designed to make full use of the Wii.  It's just EA wanting to sell some sort of Dead Space product on the Wii and they can't just port the thing straight so they use Capcom's old idea for RE because it's easy to do and doesn't require much effort on their part.  That is what ALL of these Wii spin-offs are: lazy attempts to get some product for a popular IP on the Wii with no real regard for quality or giving the fans what they want.  That is **** third party support.  It's an insult and a blatant CON.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Ian have you even bothered buying games like Deadly Creatures? My guess is that you don't which makes your whining all the more irritating. In fact I'm willing to wager you won't even buy Madworld. Also I'm getting sick of this talk that Dead Space Extraction is a cash in, you have zero basis for that statement except it is on rails. We know it has been in development for a year from a fairly talented studio. Most indications are that it is NOT a cash in, maybe different from what was expected, but a cash in, no. Unless a game is development hell, longer development times usually mean they are taking the game seriously.

I bought a Wii for DIFFERENT game experiences, and I have gotten that. Third Party Support has been growing with fresh, new games that you won't see on PS3 or Xbox 360. Even Tenchu 4 was built for the Wii and downgraded for the PSP from what I understand. The Wii is actually reviving genres that most thought were about dead, like your oh so hated on-rail shooter or Point N Click games. Even the beat em up is being revived in a huge way with Madworld.

In regards to the Wii being number 1, you have to realize companies are still making money on HD titles so there is no huge need at the moment (though that could change because of the economy) to switch to Wii as a primary console for their more ambitious games. Not to mention the fact that many are still testing the waters in regards to how well more ambitious games will sell, Zack and Wiki tanked. The true test will be seeing how HOTD: O, Madworld and Conduit sell. If just a couple of those do poorly, then I cannot blame third parties for shying away from them in the future. And you know who would be responsible? Individuals like yourself Ian who don't support good, high quality third party games even though you may pretend you do.

[Ian Sane]

Also I'm getting sick of this talk that Dead Space Extraction is a cash in, you have zero basis for that statement except it is on rails.

I'm getting sick of the talk that Dead Space Extraction is NOT a cash in.  I don't see how there's any basis for that.  It doesn't even matter if it turns out good or not.  I don't see how bringing a spin-off of Dead Space to the Wii instead of the real series is not a lazy way to just get product on the shelf.  This has been done before.  Numerous third parties have done the EXACT SAME THING and those were cash-ins while the other consoles got the real game.  So why would I assume that ELECTRONIC ARTS of all companies is going to buck the trend and the fact that this has so much in common with previous cash-ins is just a coincidence and this is a brilliant Wii project thought up from the ground up that is going to push the system in directions it never has gone before?

Ian have you even bothered buying games like Deadly Creatures?

Why would I buy a game made by THQ that is getting an average review score in the 70% range?  I don't bother with average games by publishers I associate with crap just because I have little else to pick from.  If you're going to point out third party games I don't own at least pick ones that are unanimously considered good.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Why would I buy a game made by THQ that is getting an average review score in the 70% range?  I don't bother with average games by publishers I associate with crap just because I have little else to pick from.  If you're going to point out third party games I don't own at least pick ones that are unanimously considered good.

Zack and Wiki, Boom Blox, HOTD: O, Tenchu 4, Blast Works, World at War, MoH 2,No More Heroes, De blob, Okami (Oh no but that doesn't count!), Guitar Hero IV, Rock Band 2, World of Goo and YES Deadly Creatures for those that aren't closed minded whiners who won't even give the game a chance even though it has MIXED reviews.

I'm getting sick of the talk that Dead Space Extraction is NOT a cash in.  I don't see how there's any basis for that.  It doesn't even matter if it turns out good or not.  I don't see how bringing a spin-off of Dead Space to the Wii instead of the real series is not a lazy way to just get product on the shelf.  T

Wow great rationality there. Lets ignore the long development cycle. Have you even considered that maybe that we will get a main edition to the series later on? I'm not surprised it isn't a main entry this soon in the franchises life, and guess what, I'm happy with that because I want to see what they can do with the atmosphere in an on-rails shooter. Seriously, if the game wasn't a port of the original, who honestly thought it would be anything but a spinoff this soon?

Where are these spin-off cash ins? I remember Soul Calibur Legends, Castlevania Judgement, Dragon Quest Swords and MAYBE RE: UC but that game is actually a quality title, if we get cash ins like that I'm all for them.  Then again that is four whole games, must be an epidemic!

[Ian Sane]

Have you even considered that maybe that we will get a main edition to the series later on?

No.  Why would I assume that?  The only series to do that on the Wii is Dragon Quest.  My whole opinion of this game is based on what has already frequently happened on the Wii.  The trend is spin-off instead of real game.  The real series always turns out better and the Wii doesn't get the real series after getting the spin-off.  I'm just naturally making a prediction based on the trends.

For this to buck the trends it would be a very exceptional situation.  I don't think it makes much sense to ASSUME the exceptional situation will occur, particularly since the companies involved don't have reputations for busting out exceptional games very often.

Where are these spin-off cash ins?

You just named the most significant ones and RE counts (how good it is doesn't matter; it's the attitude of the third party to give us spin-offs instead of the real thing).  There is also Prince of Persia, Final Fantasy (we get Crystal Chronicles but not the real one) and Dead Rising.  As for the real deals we have Dragon Quest, Guitar Hero, Rock Band, Monster Hunter (which is apparently very popular in Japan but gets mixed reviews here; in other words right up the Wii's alley) and...  Tenchu and Fatal Frame are established but certainly were not considered major franchises.  Sonic certainly doesn't count anymore.   I think that's enough to say that when a major franchise is brought to the Wii it's not the main series.  That's 8 spin-offs with this Dead Space one being the ninth and so far only one of the franchises has resulted in a new entry in the main series actually being announced.

What Square Enix is doing with Dragon Quest is what we should be getting.  We're getting the real series and it's being designed specifically with the Wii in mind.  That's awesome but should be routine for the market leader.  Instead it's an exception.

[Mop it up]

I might check this out after it is released. I'm not into shooters but I do enjoy a good co-op game.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Did Ian post another response? I guess I'll never know what it says.

[Stratos]

I'm more bothered by developers jumping genres in games.
If I want an on-rails shooter, I'll get HotD.
If I want a 3rd person adventure game then Resident Evil or Dead Space work.
If I want a point and click game, then I look to Monkey Island, Kings Quest or Sam and Max.

Now, there are exceptions that break the mold and are still enjoyable, but you run the risk of alienating your series fans.
The same issue comes up with Age of Empires on the DS versus the PC.
Also with Halo Wars versus Halo 1-3. How many PC RTS fans are also going to own a DS and how many of those people are going to like SRPG's? How many FPS XBox fans are also going to like RTS's?

Dead Space Extraction may be amazing as it stands against other on-rails games, but do fans of Dead Space want or like this type of game. Not everyone likes any game genre under the sun and even those people have preferences. If you lose your series fans for one game like this, will you recoup enough players who do have an interest in it to sustain it?

On another note, I won't cast judgment on the programmers for being lazy cop-outs since I have no idea if it is easier or not to make one type of game or the other. I also have a massive respect for game developers since I once tried to enter their field with dismal results.

Also note that it is the very same team making Extraction that made the original game. Most of the time the 'cheap knock-off' games you mention are not being made by one of their top tier dev teams. Who knows, EA may have told them "Make a Dead Space game for we that uses the Wii's strengths" and the Dead Space team may have said "A rail-shooter would be awesome".

@Ian
I wouldn't use meta-critic to make all of your game purchasing decisions. There are a lot of fun games out there that I would have missed if I relied on meta-critic.
Though, I wonder, what current 3rd party games on Wii would you consider 'unanimously good'?

[GoldenPhoenix]

Dead Space Extraction may be amazing as it stands against other on-rails games, but do fans of Dead Space want or like this type of game. Not everyone likes any game genre under the sun and even those people have preferences. If you lose your series fans for one game like this, will you recoup enough players who do have an interest in it to sustain it?

I think I'll like discussing things with you, you seem rational! My argument would be that Dead Space really does not really have many expectations because it is a new franchise. Not to mention going to different genres is nothing really new, remember the Dead Aim games for the RE series (OK maybe you don't want to). I'd say it is much easier to diversify a license in REASONABLE ways (Not like having a Dead Space Party Bash) when it is so new.

[Ian Sane]

@Ian
I wouldn't use meta-critic to make all of your game purchasing decisions. There are a lot of fun games out there that I would have missed if I relied on meta-critic.
Though, I wonder, what current 3rd party games on Wii would you consider 'unanimously good'?

If I ignore critics how do I even hope to narrow down what games to consider buying?  I have bought very few outright duds and paying attention to reviews is how I do that.  Typically I buy games that I have been interested in since they were first revealed.  If anything I have occasionally been encouraged to check out games I otherwise had not been paying attention to because of consistently high review scores.  And sites like Meta-critic are a good way to get a feel of what reviewers are saying.  "Whoa!  This game I've only barely heard of is getting 90% scores across the board!  I better read up on this."  And I'm not going to ignore a game that previously had my interest entirely from a score without reading the reviews and finding out why it's getting the reviews it is.

But when a game that I'm not already interested in and is made by a publisher I don't trust and a developer I either don't like or don't know and isn't a concept I find very interesting and looks generic and dull in screenshots gets average scores lower than 80% I don't go out of my way to check it out.  And honestly why would I?  Are the odds really that great that I'm going to miss out on one of my favourite games in that situation?  It should also be noted that often the only place I see Wii games that fit this description getting pushed as something I should try is HERE on a Nintendo forum where everyone is a Nintendo fan and has a potential motive to overpraise Wii exclusives (likely unintentionally).

What is unanimously good on the Wii?  Zack & Wiki is probably the best exclusive third party Wii title but I wouldn't say there's anything that would be considered a GOTY contender aside from Nintendo's first party titles (or last gen ports).  No third party game on the Wii is on par with the best PS3 or Xbox 360 third party games.

And I agree with Stratos.  The whole reason ANYONE on the Wii would want Dead Space is to play either the game they haven't had a chance to play because they only own a Wii or a new Dead Space game with the same style of gameplay.  No one asks for a spin-off.

[Halbred]

I think it's interesting that light gun rail shooters are quickly becoming a dominant genre on the Wii. HotD2&3, Overkill, RE: UC, Link's Crossbow Training, and Ghost Squad are all pretty much light-gun shooters. And personally, I love it. Light gun rail shooters work extremely well on the Wii, but I would ask that EA make the game graphically impresive.

I say that because when you don't actually control the character (except shooting things with a floating reticule), your attention tends to focus on the sights and sounds. Capcom did good with RE: UC, and Nintendo did fine with Crossbow Training. The Overkill guys kind of missed the graphics memo, but made up for it with camp and soul.

I actually just bought Dead Space for my PS3 last week but haven't gotten around to playing it yet.

[UltimatePartyBear]

I've always liked light gun games, but I don't want other kinds of games to just be turned into light gun games.  When it happened to Resident Evil, it seemed like a one-time deal, and it was a weird choice that turned out okay.  Now that the same thing is happening with Dead Space, it isn't a one-time deal anymore, and rather than an odd risk like UC, it looks like a copy cat move.  The implications are scary.  I like light gun games, but I also like other kinds of games.  I won't cheer when an existing game franchise comes to Wii as a light gun game in lieu of what the other consoles got.  I don't care how much effort is put into it.  I don't care how good it turns out.  I want to know if they're willing to build the light gun game from the ground up for the Wii, why weren't they willing to do the same for a Wii remake?

[Halbred]

Well, honestly, and I don't mean to push any buttons here, but the Wii wouldn't be able to handle a straight port, not without rebuilding the entire game. And wouldn't you rather just have a really well-made, high-production-value light gun shooter than a dumbed-down port of an existing game?

Also, I really hope Capcom gives us a sequel to Umbrella Chronicles, because they kind of skipped over RE2, and Code Veronica would be cool in light-gun form, and they could really go to town with some RE4 sequences.

[UltimatePartyBear]

I originally said port, but went back and changed it to Wii remake for exactly that reason.  I know that a port would require rebuilding the entire game, but they're doing that anyway.  I'm sure they're going to have to rebuild a lot less of it this way than if they remade the original game, but I still have to question their willingness to devote so many resources to only going halfway.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I'm sure Halbred is coming from the same perspective I am. We both own systems other than Wii, so for us we want something more then a port or a remake. If we want to play Dead Space we can get it on 360 or PS3, but this game we can get no where else, and since we both enjoy the resurgence of the on-rail shooter it is something to look forward to. There is so much untapped potential in that genre and with a year of development time under their belt it opens up some exciting possibilities.

[Halbred]

Well, I'll stick with my guns (mining equipment?) here.

I'd rather have a really well-done short game than a poorly made long game.

It's really just a production value argument. Look at Patapon: It's a really really well made game with very simple (but effective) graphics and sound and unique gameplay. It's also very short. But it's one of my all-time favorite games because Pyramid went all-out to make a short, but incredibly engaging game.

[UltimatePartyBear]

I'm sure Halbred is coming from the same perspective I am. We both own systems other than Wii, so for us we want something more then a port or a remake. If we want to play Dead Space we can get it on 360 or PS3, but this game we can get no where else, and since we both enjoy the resurgence of the on-rail shooter it is something to look forward to. There is so much untapped potential in that genre and with a year of development time under their belt it opens up some exciting possibilities.

I also own a PS3, lady. 

Finally a use for Bill's grumpy smiley, and I never saved it.

[Stratos]

@Ian
You don't consider Boom Blox very good? Or have you not tried it? I would rate Blox higher than Z & W. I don't recall any bad reviews of de Blob either.

I did not mean to say that you shouldn't use game reviews to influence your purchases. I was more voicing against using Metacritic as the main determinant of what games you will purchase. Some people, like the old 1Up reviewers, didn't want a numerical score attached to their opinions. Numbers can mean a lot of things to different people. You don't look at games unless they have an 8 or better. Other places like WiiWare World view games rated 6 or 7 as the same value as you appear to put in an eight. The only game they ever gave a perfect 10 was World of Goo.

I don't lend as much credence to numbers because I find they can be cruel mistresses to adhere to. I have differing opinions and I like to discover some things on my own.

@GoldenPhoenix
I'll grant that Dead Space is a new franchise with little prior precedence game-wise. I'll also grant that on-rail shooters and first-person shooters are similar enough to make a logical jump (shooting guns - in different ways!). A matter of note though is that this is a big franchise. EA has been pushing it like no tomorrow since last spring at least. They have the comics, a movie, action figures and game(s) planned or already being produced. The comics were even out before the game. So even though the game itself is only just being established, there is a full fledged canon already in place. So there may be a number of DS fans already established before the game hoisted it's colors. This can be both boon and bane for our little Wii shooter. Because EA has built this franchise to be diverse in its outlets, there may be plenty of room for Extraction to flourish. The problem is that since DS for PS360 was the first, it also made the biggest impression. People already have an opinion of what to expect and how things will work. A glance at the several topics on NRW dealing with this game shows that a number of people expected -- and still demand -- that this game be akin to its predecessor.
Also from reading around the web, DS is billed as the spiritual heir to Resident Evil set in space. This alone sets a huge tone for what people expect from any future DS game on any system.

It does appear that the devs do want to channel a lot from the first game, though what were the pulls of the first game? Will there be enough of them to draw in first time players and DS veterans? They mention a number of appeals from it like strategic limb removal. I have noticed several people complain that the sense of exploration will be lost. Is that a big enough change to lose people? I don't know because I have yet to play the original game and I am personally biased towards wanting a direct port as opposed to the Extraction shooter. I'll keep an open mind, but I am not overjoyed at the direction it took.

Also, Dead Aim shows the dangerous route spin-offs can go. Umbrella Chronicles was a better to my understanding. Super Mario RPG was a very good spin-off. Sonic Chronicles was not from what I've read. Final Fantasy and the Tactics spin-off worked very well also.
Star Wars games may be another good example of a franchise where somethings work. There are a number of games with varying genres covered. Masters of Teras Kasi (sp?) was a flop, but Super Star Wars and Rogue Squadron worked well.

In summary, it has potential to work really well, but also potential to crash and burn. I think people are more worried (and passionate) because it is another game Wii owners will feel they have to buy to convince the 'Big Boys' to make 'serious' games on the Wii. It doesn't matter that the game itself is good; if we don't support it, they will turn around and use it to justify not supporting the Wii. We are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Buy spin-offs we may not truly be interested in, or buy poorly implemented ports. Very rarely is there a chance like Godfather or Okami where a brilliant port is produced, or Z & W or another truly good original game arrives. In the case of those three games I mentioned, we failed. In the case of Umbrella Chronicles (and RE4), it seems we had a resounding success. If that matters to you.

*Wow, 7 posts while I worked on this. I think too much. 

[GoldenPhoenix]

Stratos, the game is a prequel to the main story so at the very least it is apart of the mythos of the series. Now from what I've read they understand what made Dead Spacel, Dead Space. In regards to exploration, once again I nor anyone has any idea what to expect. What you can gather though is that they seem to have a grasp and vision on what they expect Dead Space to be. Is it different from what people expected? Yeah, but that isn't always a bad thing if handled correctly.

Let's also not forget it is being handled by the core Dead Space team with assistance from Eurocom. It isn't a game franchise that is being farmed out but is instead being kept in the hands of its creators. If you respect their work with Dead Space, why can't you at least give them the benefit of doubt for their prequel? From the interview they think they can innovate the on-rail genre like they did with the 3rd person shooter genre. It comes across to me that they want to challenge themselves but at the same time by sticking to these tenants:

1. Exciting and rewarding gameplay
2. A horrific experience set in visually stunning environments
3. Incredible mood and sound
4. A mature and thought provoking story
5. Unique, terrifying, and satisfying enemies, weapons and bosses

They also mention that high production values are key as well like the first game.

[Stratos]

One other concern I have with it being a rail-shooter is with game length. Many of the light-gun games are too short for me to dump $50 on one. Umbrella Chronicles' length should be the beginning of the norm instead of the exception regarding length.

If they can truly innovate the genre and give the game better length and replay value than other games then they can easily have a winner on their hands. I do hope it pans out well for the sake of attracting more traditional games from EA like Godfather 2.

[GoldenPhoenix]

One other concern I have with it being a rail-shooter is with game length. Many of the light-gun games are too short for me to dump $50 on one. Umbrella Chronicles' length should be the beginning of the norm instead of the exception regarding length.

If they can truly innovate the genre and give the game better length and replay value than other games then they can easily have a winner on their hands. I do hope it pans out well for the sake of attracting more traditional games from EA like Godfather 2.

It is pretty amazing what Capcom did with RE: UC, it is unlike any other light gun game out there, it had strategy along with length. I do hope Dead Space Extraction is much longer then HOTD: O. It needs to at the very least, compare to RE: UC.

[Kairon]

I'm sure Halbred is coming from the same perspective I am. We both own systems other than Wii, so for us we want something more then a port or a remake. If we want to play Dead Space we can get it on 360 or PS3, but this game we can get no where else, and since we both enjoy the resurgence of the on-rail shooter it is something to look forward to. There is so much untapped potential in that genre and with a year of development time under their belt it opens up some exciting possibilities.

I don't own any other console than the Wii... so I guess I'm not invited to your club? T_T

[GoldenPhoenix]

I'm sure Halbred is coming from the same perspective I am. We both own systems other than Wii, so for us we want something more then a port or a remake. If we want to play Dead Space we can get it on 360 or PS3, but this game we can get no where else, and since we both enjoy the resurgence of the on-rail shooter it is something to look forward to. There is so much untapped potential in that genre and with a year of development time under their belt it opens up some exciting possibilities.

I don't own any other console than the Wii... so I guess I'm not invited to your club? T_T

Nope, it is for serious gamers only.

[Mop it up]

Count me as part of the Wii-only crowd, as that's the only "current-gen" system that I own. Perhaps I'll start a club entitled "Wii Have Faith" for all of us who show the utmost loyalty by owning only a Wii. Wii want games to come to Wii, Wii don't want to come to the games!