Poll

Who Should Be Added in the Second DLC Wave?

Shrek
1 (2.5%)
Godzilla
1 (2.5%)
James Bond
1 (2.5%)
James Jones
1 (2.5%)
Super Kong
1 (2.5%)
Tutorial Pig
1 (2.5%)
Who cares? Fox Only, No Items, Final Destination
1 (2.5%)
Your Mom
2 (5%)
Malon
3 (7.5%)
Geno
2 (5%)
Funky Kong
4 (10%)
Reggie
2 (5%)
Iwata
1 (2.5%)
The Playstation All-Stars
1 (2.5%)
Goku
1 (2.5%)
The volleyball from Dead or Alive Xtreme Volleyball
2 (5%)
Nintendo Characters!
6 (15%)
The Mon-Stars from Space Jam
2 (5%)
More 3rd Party Characters!
5 (12.5%)
Sakurai
2 (5%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Voting closed: March 21, 2020, 02:36:44 PM

Author Topic: Super Smash Bros. Ultimate And The Never-Ending 3rd Party Character DLC  (Read 127107 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stratos

  • Stale lazy meme pirate
  • Score: 70
    • View Profile
Maybe Dixie and Tails are coming and one will be an echo fighter of the other, since they both have appendages that twirl around for floating/flying purposes.
My Game Collection
NNID: Chronocast
Switch: SW-6786-5514-9978
3DS Friend Code: 0447-5723-6467
XBL Gamertag: Chronocast

Offline Luigi Dude

  • Truth Bomber
  • Score: 4
    • View Profile
Maybe Dixie and Tails are coming and one will be an echo fighter of the other, since they both have appendages that twirl around for floating/flying purposes.

That wouldn't work though.  Echo fighters are characters that take the existing model of one character, and reskin it and just add some tweaks to existing attacks.  Dixie ponytail is on her head while Tails tails are on his butt which would make it impossible to just reskin one into the other.

This is why Dixie won't be a Diddy Echo fighter either like I see many on the internet think since Diddy doesn't have a ponytail or anything on his head that can be easily reskinned into ponytail related attacks.  Dixie will have to at least be a Luigi type character like Lucas and Wolf were that might be based off another but still have quite a few unique attacks.

This is the game where Ganondorf finally uses a sword in some of his attacks and Wario was given his shoulder charge again after it was stupidly removed for 3DS/Wii U.  If Sakurai is trying to make other characters more accurate to their official counterparts, I don't see Dixie being playable if she doesn't have several attacks that use her most defining feature.
I’m gonna have you play every inch of this game! - Masahiro Sakurai

Offline nickmitch

  • You can edit these yourself now?!
  • Score: 82
    • View Profile
    • FACEBOOK!
I had an interesting idea for what "mech" could be: Chibi Robo.  I can picture a tiny Chibi Robo that pilots a much larger version, since he has the inverse problem of uh. . .actually he has the totally unique problem of not being the right size for Smash Bros.  And this would be an adorable way of fixing that problem.  Just a tiny Chibi Robo inside a relatively giant Chibi Robo that looks exactly the same as the small one.

Still, 11 new characters when Sakura told us not to expect too many is a lot.
TVman is dead. I killed him and took his posts.

Offline Stratos

  • Stale lazy meme pirate
  • Score: 70
    • View Profile
Marth and Lucina aren't copy models, they are just similarly designed. I presumed similar move sets were what defined echo fighters.
My Game Collection
NNID: Chronocast
Switch: SW-6786-5514-9978
3DS Friend Code: 0447-5723-6467
XBL Gamertag: Chronocast

Offline Adrock

  • Chill, Valentine
  • Score: 138
    • View Profile
I figure only Sakurai knows what defines an Echo fighter. I’m having a hard time coming up with a consistent set of rules. Dr. Mario isn’t an Echo of Mario for whatever reason. Sure, he has a different move (no F.L.U.D.D.). Then again, Dark Pit has a different move and he is an Echo fighter so *shrug*

Ultimately, this is up to the whims of Sakurai which works for me. It’s best not to think about it.

Offline Evan_B

  • Formally known as Bevan Ee
  • Score: 5
    • View Profile
Oh, for pete's sake.

LET'S DO THE THING:
Echo Fighters are characters whose hurtboxes are exactly the same as the character they are based off of. They also have the same attack animations with minor exceptions. They can possess different weights, attack power and properties, and literal model differences, but they are for the most part exact copies of another fighter. Another important detail is that an Echo Fighter is a UNIQUE character.

Fox/Falco: At the time of their first appearance, Falco was a CLONE AND AN ECHO FIGHTER, as he possessed all of the same animations and model size as Fox, had a slower running speed and faster fall speed, as well as a higher jump. Now that Falco's jab animation, forward smash, neutral aerial, forward aerial, and down special have been substantially changed giving them drastically different animations and hitboxes, he is NO LONGER AN ECHO FIGHTER
Captain Falcon/Ganondorf: At the time of their first appearance, Ganondorf was a CLONE AND NOT AN ECHO FIGHTER, as he was a resized Captain Falcon model. Over time, his model and animations have continued to change, and with Smash Ultimate, he has been given entirely new smash attacks atop his very different smash special animation. Ganondorf was NEVER AN ECHO FIGHTER
Link/Young Link: At the time of their first appearance, Young Link was a CLONE AND NOT AN ECHO FIGHTER as he was a resized Link model. In Smash Ultimate, he is neither an Echo Fighter to Link nor Toon Link, as his model is a different size, and his moveset matches Toon Link, but not Smash Ultimate Link. Young Link was NEVER AN ECHO FIGHTER
Marth/Roy: At the time of their first appearance, Roy was a CLONE AND AN ECHO FIGHTER, as he possessed all of the same animations as Marth, had a slower running speed and faster fall speed, along with fire properties and a different "tipping" mechanic. Now that Roy's jab attack, forward tilt, forward smash, forward and backward aerials, and counter animations have been substantially changed giving them drastically different animations and hitboxes, he is NO LONGER AN ECHO FIGHTER
Pikachu/Pichu: At the time of their first appearance, Pichu was a CLONE AND NOT AN ECHO FIGHTER, as he is a resized Pikachu model. Because of this size difference, Pichu was NEVER AN ECHO FIGHTER
Mario/Dr. Mario: At the time of their first appearance, Dr. Mario was a CLONE AND AN ECHO FIGHTER, as he shared a moveset and model size with Mario despite having different attack and weight properties. Now that he has a different down special and down aerial, Dr. Mario is NO LONGER AN ECHO FIGHTER
Ness/Lucas: This is a stupid comparison, as Ness and Lucas have very different attack animations and properties despite being similarly sized. Lucas WAS NEVER AN ECHO FIGHTER
Marth/Lucina: Lucina possesses all of Marth's attack animations with one exception, being her down aerial having a different sweeping animation that goes from back to front rather than front to back. The only substantial difference between the two is Lucina's lack of "tipping." This means SHE IS AN ECHO FIGHTER
Mewtwo/Lucario: This is an even dumber comparison, as these characters share a similar neutral special attack and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE. Lucario WAS NEVER AN ECHO FIGHTER
Pit/Dark Pit: Dark Pit possesses all of Pit's attack animations, and his Electroshock Arm is an aesthetic alteration with different attack properties. This means HE IS AN ECHO FIGHTER
Peach/Daisy: Daisy possessed all of Peach's attack animations, with one apparent exception, being her up aerial, which Peach might also have. Her attack properties may be different, as well. This means SHE IS AN ECHO FIGHTER

Based on this, Echo Fighters must share a similar model size and have extremely minimal animation changes, while still possessing the same moveset at the original fighter with tweaked attack attributes. The best comparison I can think of is putting a Shadow the Hedgehog skin on Sonic, making him more slippery than the former, and making all of Sonic's blue attacks yellow.
I am a toxic person engaging in toxic behavior.

Offline Adrock

  • Chill, Valentine
  • Score: 138
    • View Profile
So, like, Sakurai could nix this whole Echo fighter confusion by literally changing like one or two moves per Echo fighter? I’m basing this off your explanation of Mario/Dr. Mario. I’m not saying you’re necessarily wrong. It just seems like a really low bar but a bar nonetheless. Going all the way back to Melee, this made no sense to me. He’s the same guy with a lab coat, pretending to be a licensed physician. Why does he have different attributes? Yet he does; all the characters do. With that in mind, the whole Echo fighter dealie just seems needlessly complicated when the alternative would have been:

Us: Those characters are clones.
Sakurai: No. I changed the weight, knockback etc.
Us: But the moves are all the sa-
Sakurai: I changed some.
Us: But...
Sakurai: 🤷🏻‍♂️
Us:*buys game either way*
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 02:03:27 AM by Adrock »

Offline MagicCow64

  • Still no title
  • Score: 9
    • View Profile
I noodled before about condensing the roster a bit by putting these echo-type clones into a sort of costume status where they'd be nested in one slot, but that doesn't appear to be the case here, which makes the distinction all the more functionally arbitrary.

Offline Luigi Dude

  • Truth Bomber
  • Score: 4
    • View Profile
Echo Fighter is basically a politically correct term for Melee style clones that Sakurai made up in hopes people wont lose their **** like they did when Dark Pit was revealed last time.  He's hoping that by creating the term Echo, people should realize that these characters were easier to make and didn't take away resources from more unique characters being created. 


https://nintendoeverything.com/sakurai-on-the-clone-characters-in-smash-bros-wii-u3ds/

Quote
There are 3 fighters [Lucina, Dark Pit, and Doctor Mario] that are alternate models (clones) in the game. Each was originally a color variation, but during development, they were given balanced characteristics. Since their functionality had differences, forms were separated from each other. However, it was vital that this didn’t increase the required man-hours. Some relative tuning was sufficient as it wasn’t necessary to create balancing from scratch.

Yeah we can argue over Dr. Mario blending the line but for the most part, Echo fighters will be characters that don't require radical change from the ground up to create and balance.  As he says, they're free characters that they were able to add during development without messing up the schedule.

As he also said

Quote
This is like a free dessert after a luxurious meal that was prepared free of charge. In a restaurant with this type of service, I don’t think there’s anybody who would say, “Change this to a meat dish!!”

Yet, I’m told [to do that] about Smash Bros. But, I guess since a lot of them are children, it cannot be helped.

I imagine because of the huge roster we probably won't get as many unique character as Brawl and For so we'll get a lot more clones to try and pad out the newcomer list.  This is just Sakurai's way of trying to calm some of the upcoming shitstorm when the final roster is revealed.
I’m gonna have you play every inch of this game! - Masahiro Sakurai

Offline Adrock

  • Chill, Valentine
  • Score: 138
    • View Profile
This is just Sakurai's way of trying to calm some of the upcoming shitstorm when the final roster is revealed.
If some people can’t get behind “Everyone is Here!” there’s no pleasing them anyway. Trying to get ahead of people with that mindset is a fool’s errand. Drawing attention to it is really not helping Sakurai’s cause. The path of least resistance would have been to just not mention it. Change a move or two then really play up the “Everyone is Here!” aspect of the game. Ultimate, to me at least, feels like a greatest hits of the series.

Then again, I’m pretty easy to please. Lucina was my go-to in Wii U/3DS; I have no business complaining about Echo fighters. Sakurai even gifted me Daisy so no complaints here. In Melee, especially without the knowledge that the development cycle was like 13 months, padding the roster with “clones” felt cheap. I was also 17 year old at the time. As the roster grew, particularly with Wii U/3DS, it was easy to accept these quicker turnaround fighters.

I get it. Everyone has a favorite who’s still missing in action. Without delving into lists, I feel like villains and female characters are underrepresented.

Offline nickmitch

  • You can edit these yourself now?!
  • Score: 82
    • View Profile
    • FACEBOOK!
And Waluigi.  Waluigi is underrepresented.
TVman is dead. I killed him and took his posts.


Offline nickmitch

  • You can edit these yourself now?!
  • Score: 82
    • View Profile
    • FACEBOOK!
And Waluigi.  Waluigi is underrepresented.

Who?

See? That right there is the problem.
TVman is dead. I killed him and took his posts.



Offline Luigi Dude

  • Truth Bomber
  • Score: 4
    • View Profile
I like that we've been getting one new music sample every week since E3.  As a huge Mega Man fan I really loved the most recent update and can't wait to hear the full version in the final game.  The Mega Man remixes were amazing in 3DS/Wii U but only covered the first 3 games so it's nice to see we're going beyond that in this one.

Remixes by none other then famous Sonic composer Jun Senoue as well.  With Senoue on board hopefully this means we'll get some new Sonic remixes as well since Sega is pretty controlling with Sonic music and usually only allows their own composers to do any remixes.  This is why we've only had one Sonic song remixed in Smash Bros with Angel Island in Brawl which was also done by Senoue.
I’m gonna have you play every inch of this game! - Masahiro Sakurai

Offline Stratos

  • Stale lazy meme pirate
  • Score: 70
    • View Profile
My Game Collection
NNID: Chronocast
Switch: SW-6786-5514-9978
3DS Friend Code: 0447-5723-6467
XBL Gamertag: Chronocast



Offline Caterkiller

  • Not too big for Smash Bros. after all
  • Score: 74
    • View Profile
I like that we've been getting one new music sample every week since E3.  As a huge Mega Man fan I really loved the most recent update and can't wait to hear the full version in the final game.  The Mega Man remixes were amazing in 3DS/Wii U but only covered the first 3 games so it's nice to see we're going beyond that in this one.

Remixes by none other then famous Sonic composer Jun Senoue as well.  With Senoue on board hopefully this means we'll get some new Sonic remixes as well since Sega is pretty controlling with Sonic music and usually only allows their own composers to do any remixes.  This is why we've only had one Sonic song remixed in Smash Bros with Angel Island in Brawl which was also done by Senoue.


Ohhh... I knew Sega was very controlling about what gets to be done with Sonic and the music but I wasn't aware that they only allow their own composers to do remixes. If this is true I expect at least 1 more new classic arrangement from Sonic!


First Sega wanted Sonic in Smash, then they didn't, then they did. Notice how Sonic doesn't show up in the newcomer videos either? Or how he only showed up as a 2D sprite in a couple official character artworks.


I'd like to talk with a Sega rep about all this.
Nintendo players and One Piece readers, just better people.

RomanceDawn

Offline nickmitch

  • You can edit these yourself now?!
  • Score: 82
    • View Profile
    • FACEBOOK!
Quote from: Nintendo Life
Are there plans to either announce characters between now and December or is the finalized, complete roster?  Can we expect to see more at a later date?
Trinen: We can answer that when we get closer to December.
Link
Pretty vague answer on when we can expect more character announcements, but I think it points to the timeline from the rumor being untrue.
TVman is dead. I killed him and took his posts.

Offline Stratos

  • Stale lazy meme pirate
  • Score: 70
    • View Profile
Rumor has it we are getting something this weekend. Supposedly Nintendo uploaded a private video on YouTube and the description was Smash related. We may be seeing the reveal of "King" and "Ponytail" tomorrow.
My Game Collection
NNID: Chronocast
Switch: SW-6786-5514-9978
3DS Friend Code: 0447-5723-6467
XBL Gamertag: Chronocast

Offline Evan_B

  • Formally known as Bevan Ee
  • Score: 5
    • View Profile
I wouldn't trust a 4chan rumor as far as I could throw it.
I am a toxic person engaging in toxic behavior.

Offline Stratos

  • Stale lazy meme pirate
  • Score: 70
    • View Profile
So IMDB of all places has "leaked" that the Chorus Kids from Rhythm Heaven are coming to Smash...Can't anyone edit those entries to say anything? While it would confirm an old Smash 4 rumor as a cut character returning, I still don't buy it. Only way this happens is if it truly was a planned character but was cut last minute and is already mostly complete. Just feels like hundreds of other characters are more deserving of a spot and would be much better gag characters.
My Game Collection
NNID: Chronocast
Switch: SW-6786-5514-9978
3DS Friend Code: 0447-5723-6467
XBL Gamertag: Chronocast

Offline nickmitch

  • You can edit these yourself now?!
  • Score: 82
    • View Profile
    • FACEBOOK!
It doesn't make sense to me that a character would've been worked on and then cut from Smash 4, since the DLC characters were worked on after release.  But I guess there could be some valid ones.

I think the IMDb listing got updated to remove that listing, but there were some assist trophies and Pokeball Pokemon on there too, so this might have an extra grain of salt.
TVman is dead. I killed him and took his posts.

Offline Luigi Dude

  • Truth Bomber
  • Score: 4
    • View Profile
We know from the old Gematsu leaks that Chorus Kids along with Chrom were originally planned for 3DS/Wii U.  In Chrom's case Sakurai even admitted it but changed his minds after realizing that Robin had much better potential for a unique moveset.  He hasn't acknowledged the Chorus Kids though so we don't know the situation on what got them cut.

If the Chorus Kids were going to be like the Ice Climbers then I could see why they got cut because of the 3DS limitations.  If that's the case then I could easily see them being brought back if Sakurai already had a moveset designed but had to scrap because of technical reason the Switch wont suffer from.  If they were cut because Sakurai was having a hard time creating a decent moveset then I'd imagine they'll stay gone and at best become an Assist Trophy this time.

Rhythm Heaven is a very popular franchise in Japan and at least has some niche status in the West so it's not hard to imagine a character from that series getting into Smash Bros.  The sale of it's last few games have been better then several other series that are already represented in Smash Bros.  Of course I see a lot of list on the internet thinking Chorus Kids are guaranteed which is jumping the gun to me but at the same time I wouldn't 100% count them out either.  Unless we know the exact reason they got cut, it's hard to clearly say one way or another how likely they are to be in this game.
I’m gonna have you play every inch of this game! - Masahiro Sakurai

Offline Order.RSS

  • Resident Evil 420
  • Score: 32
    • View Profile
Haha that's the type of nice curveballs I expect from Sakurai! Next up, Mona from WarioWare?

Offline Adrock

  • Chill, Valentine
  • Score: 138
    • View Profile
Haha that's the type of nice curveballs I expect from Sakurai! Next up, Mona from WarioWare?
Ah, gawd, yes, please.

I wouldn’t even care if she was an Echo of Wario. What? Girls can fart.

Offline nickmitch

  • You can edit these yourself now?!
  • Score: 82
    • View Profile
    • FACEBOOK!
Well, she has that red scooter to mimic Wario's motorcycle. . .
TVman is dead. I killed him and took his posts.