Topic: Mario Isn't Missing

[MagicCow64]

Rayman Origins certainly looks better, but I'm not sure it's better from a gameplay perspective. I definitely liked what I played of Rayman Legends better than NSMBU, but that may just be because I really didn't like NSMBU. I'm definitely more excited for NSMB2 than Rayman Legends, though.

Yeah, I'm with you there. Origins looked great, but there was a cog missing somewhere that kept it from reaching NSMBW's level, despite the latter game's conservative visuals.

[oksoda]

Really enjoying the conversation so far. I want to talk about this topic on next week's Connectivity, and I'd love to have some thoughts from you guys on the show. If anyone is interested, please email Connectivity@nintendoworldreport.com and answer the following:

Are you experiencing Mario fatigue right now? Why or why not?

I centered my post around the shortcomings of New Super Mario Bros. as a series, but feel free to address any aspect of Mario in your answer.

[Mop it up]

I'm probably the only one in the world who thinks we need more Mario. But even I agree with this article about the New Super Mario Brothers line. It isn't just about style, but those Mario games back in the day also had their own feel to them which required relearning the game. Since the NSMB series all play the same way, I already know how all the mechanics work, and there will be no surprises. Even Super Mario Galaxy 2 had a bit of this, and is the main reason why I consider Galaxy 1 the better game.

Maybe that's why Nintendo are keeping the games the same, so that the more casual players don't have to relearn the game every time.

[LudicrousDa3ve]

If you spread them by differing consoles and styles (2D&3D), it doesn't seem so extreme. Let's see how the next couple of years pan out. A few more samey NSMB titles on the same platforms will definitely throw us into Mario fatigue.
    I do really hope we get a new 3D one on WiiU by '14, though.

[DonnyKD]

The problem lies with the fact that whereas Super Mario Bros 1 - 3 were relatively different from each other, each NSMB game is pretty much identical.

You keep telling yourself that Lost Levels is different from SMB. And you keep telling yourself that SMB2 USA is a Mario game. Hey, at least the NSMB series never reskinned another game.

All these different branches of the Mario tree are separate from one another, but for me they're all suffering from the same problem, which is that they're not evolving fast enough and in some cases not evolving at all.

What the heck is your definition of "evolving"? Being an entirely different game, except that you drive/party/jump around? What the hell else are you going to do with a platformer? The only reason SMB3 is that different from SMB1 is because the latter is heavily limited. You only move forward, you only have 2 power-ups, few enemies, repeating levels, extremely linear gameplay, primitive sound quality, only four tracks in the entire game, so really, yeah, SMB3 "evolved" from SMB1, but that's like comparing a 1 minute game to Uncharted.

And remember when everyone else said that SMW was "SMB3 in 16-bit"? Yeah.

[Pixelated Pixies]

The problem lies with the fact that whereas Super Mario Bros 1 - 3 were relatively different from each other, each NSMB game is pretty much identical.

You keep telling yourself that Lost Levels is different from SMB. And you keep telling yourself that SMB2 USA is a Mario game. Hey, at least the NSMB series never reskinned another game.

All these different branches of the Mario tree are separate from one another, but for me they're all suffering from the same problem, which is that they're not evolving fast enough and in some cases not evolving at all.

What the heck is your definition of "evolving"? Being an entirely different game, except that you drive/party/jump around? What the hell else are you going to do with a platformer? The only reason SMB3 is that different from SMB1 is because the latter is heavily limited. You only move forward, you only have 2 power-ups, few enemies, repeating levels, extremely linear gameplay, primitive sound quality, only four tracks in the entire game, so really, yeah, SMB3 "evolved" from SMB1, but that's like comparing a 1 minute game to Uncharted.

And remember when everyone else said that SMW was "SMB3 in 16-bit"? Yeah.

I give up.

[NWR_Lindy]

I'm not really concerned so much about the proliferation of Mario games as I am Nintendo's over-reliance on the franchise to carry its systems.

I can't even remember the last time Nintendo themselves launched a truly new console IP in a genre other than party game or fitness.  I honestly can't think of the last time that happened.  You could maybe say Endless Ocean and Excite Truck/Bots on Wii, but those weren't even developed by Nintendo.  Probably Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, which is cheating a bit as it's using an existing IP.  Ugh.

Really, you'd have to go back almost to the dawn of GameCube, with Luigi's Mansion, Pikmin, and Wave Race.  That feels like the last time Nintendo was really putting out consistently new games that we'd never seen before. They've been recycling franchises for over a decade now.

[TJ Spyke]

I can't even remember the last time Nintendo themselves launched a truly new console IP in a genre other than party game or fitness.  I honestly can't think of the last time that happened.  You could maybe say Endless Ocean and Excite Truck/Bots on Wii, but those weren't even developed by Nintendo.  Probably Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, which is cheating a bit as it's using an existing IP.  Ugh.

Xenoblade says "Hi".

[Kairon]

I thought I had Mario Fatigue. And then I played Mario 3D Land MONTHS after it came out on a whim. Dear god that game... SO GOOD! It re-readied my boyd for any and all Mario that Nintendo can dish out!

[MegaByte]

Really, you'd have to go back almost to the dawn of GameCube, with Luigi's Mansion, Pikmin, and Wave Race.

Huh?

[Chocobo_Rider]

Let's also remember one important piece of information ...

In the earlier days, the definition of a Mario game had not been fully formed.  They could fearlessly experiment.

These days, especially with the nature of "fans" on the internet, changes have to be made in drips and drabs.  If there were ANY sweeping changes made to the franchise?




So, we'll get high quality games that gradually evolve over time.  Drastic changes will take place every so often in the form of new sub-series ("New," "Galaxy," etc.).

I, and millions of other gamers, will gladly take it.

[famicomplicated]

Before purchasing NSMB2 I was pondering this "Mario overkill" a lot, something I've never done before, because as Scott pointed out, there has always been enough time between releases before now.
Heck, if Mario 3D Land didn't exist, anticipation for the latest couple of games would be exponentially more methinks.

After playing the first couple of worlds and a bit of the **spoiler removed** I can confirm that my fears were unfortunately realised, at least at first.
I definitely got that "deja-vu" feeling I've not felt before, which is not to say I'm not enjoying it, it's just....I wish i was playing this a year later, maybe with more features *cough* online multiplayer *cough*.

[DonnyKD]

I can't even remember the last time Nintendo themselves launched a truly new console IP in a genre other than party game or fitness.

Steel Diver, Sakura Samurai, Pushmo, Xenoblade, and technically, Project P-100.

Welcome to 2012.

[HeyItsMe]

I don't remember how much times I died to get the (very) final star in Super Mario Galaxy 2 but it seriously took over 6 hrs. ARGHH RAGE..

6 hours? Took me around 12 minutes. : :

Really the very last star. The 242 star. I played it for 6 hrs. straight trying to beat that damn level..

[HeyItsMe]

While I don't mind Nintendo releasing Mario games all the time. I kinda wish they would bring back more of their own franchises. Don't get me wrong they have been doing a great job recently with Kid Icarus, Pikimin and many more.  Or maybe create a new IP all together. I would love to see another Wave Race, or another F-Zero. NintendoLand looks like a great new game something different. Which I'd admit it was dumb shown at the press conference but I really can't wait to play it now. These ideas are what Nintendo needs to put out there.

[broodwars]

Let's also remember one important piece of information ...

In the earlier days, the definition of a Mario game had not been fully formed.  They could fearlessly experiment.

These days, especially with the nature of "fans" on the internet, changes have to be made in drips and drabs.  If there were ANY sweeping changes made to the franchise? *rage photo*

From my experience, that's only been the reaction when the changes have been blatantly bad.  Even Other M, a game that is fairly widely derided now for the things that it did, did not receive such a reaction until people had played the game and saw that the new elements were badly implemented.  But as I've constantly said, I'm glad they tried to change things up, and I'd be quite open to them making another, better attempt in the future.  I'd rather companies tried new ideas with their franchises and failed than keep a series stagnant because they fear the risks.

Not changing things because you're petrified that people will revolt at the slightest provocation is why we have still regurgitated **** like the Dynasty Warriors games, which (apparently) have not substantially changed in over a decade.  To me, throwing new ideas into spin-off series instead of revamping the core experience is cowardly and shows a distinct lack of faith in your game designers.

[Pixelated Pixies]

s

I don't remember how much times I died to get the (very) final star in Super Mario Galaxy 2 but it seriously took over 6 hrs. ARGHH RAGE..

6 hours? Took me around 12 minutes. : : :

Really the very last star. The 242 star. I played it for 6 hrs. straight trying to beat that damn level..

I got every star but that one. It was just too frustrating for me.

[oohhboy]

It's definitely franchise fatigue setting in exacerbated by the short timing between this and the last game also the dual release timing and the laziness of it. It's a real rookie mistake I would would expect some idiot fresh out of Uni with a MBA would make. It's all part of the increasingly short term outlook Nintendo is having and it's a serious problem that will hurt them more than their competitors ever could. Instead of having a road map and making small course adjustment along the way, they are driving like they are looking through the floor boards and swerving wildly.

Nintendo really needs to look out the window as these corrections are going to get worse and worse each time they make them. The 3DS price issue hit had them hard and the correction they had to make was costly, but necessary. It's embarrassing how obvious these mistakes are.

[Chocobo_Rider]

@broodwars

You ALMOST have a point there but you're neglecting a key element that makes the Other M situation entirely unique.  The issues some people have with that game deal with characterization and consistency with some mythical prior experience.  In other words, in that case, it is something that couldn't be experienced before playing most of the game.

The gameplay itself reflects my point about substantial yet gradual evolutions.  Yes, there are new and exciting tweaks, but it is built on the Super Metroid model and even manages to control largely with NES-style inputs.  Which, again, accomplishes something "new" without reinventing itself.

Ultimately, you make part of my point for me.  Of course people don't mind change when it's "good," the problem is that a lot of gamers fear change just as much as Nintendo fears alienating them.  Gamers want game changes to reflect the ideal IN THEIR HEAD.  When the result is different (as is the overwhelming statistical likelihood)? "rawr." "this change was BAD."

That's why I mentioned new sub-series, or whatever you want to call them.  THAT's where companies like Nintendo who have looooong standing franchises can take risks because people don't have the same expectations.  They can't "rawr" if there were no expectations to be cognitively dissonant about.  Think of the PKMN Ranger series.  People liked the games but not as much as the flagship titles.  Imagine if one of them was called PKMN Black/White instead.

@oohhboy

It couldn't have anything to do with how some gamers/journalists have tried to crucify Nintendo in recent years for not having enough Mario games towards the beginning of a platforms cycle, could it?

[oksoda]

I can't even remember the last time Nintendo themselves launched a truly new console IP in a genre other than party game or fitness.

I know that, to us, it isn't on par with more traditional games, but Wii Sports was a new IP and sold a whole lot of Wiis. It shouldn't be overlooked.

[oohhboy]

It couldn't have anything to do with how some gamers/journalists have tried to crucify Nintendo in recent years for not having enough Mario games towards the beginning of a platforms cycle, could it?

Yes and no. Having a Mario game is good for a launch. They are just far too similar to each other. If the WiiU game was a 3D Mario they would have gotten away with it since Golden Showers is alternating from a 3D Mario. They could have launched with a 2D Mario, but they would have had to hidden GS's existence and launching that later. Any backlash would have been relatively isolated to GS instead of both. A 3D WiiU Mario would have had enough of a wow factor to overcome the issues facing these two games.

[Shaymin]

I can't even remember the last time Nintendo themselves launched a truly new console IP in a genre other than party game or fitness.

I know that, to us, it isn't on par with more traditional games, but Wii Sports was a new IP and sold a whole lot of Wiis. It shouldn't be overlooked.

I think he's taking that into account, though I have to ask which of "party" or "fitness" Wii Sports would fall under.

[AnGer]

I'll never suffer from "Mario fatigue" since I am not especially a big Mario fan. I pick up some of the games (I bought SM3DL for example, but mainly because I was lacking a good non-RPG single player experience at the time), but Mario or the lack thereof will never be a deciding factor whether I'll pick up a Nintendo console or not.


Despite that, I fail to understand how people are annoyed by the large number of Mario games coming out. Yes, it is a cash cow and yes, it appears to be the same game all over again (at least the "New" series), but then again, Nintendo can (and will) most likely pour the money into other projects which will maybe not sell like hotcakes.

[Kairon]

I think something people aren't talking about is Nintendo front-loading their new systems with ever-green titles. Games like New Super Mario Bros. 2 or Mario Kart 7 will have the rest of the 3DS' (or Wii U's) lifetime to do their evergreen/long-tail selling, something a financial safety net of sorts for Nintendo to strike out from.

[Luigi Dude]

Yes and no. Having a Mario game is good for a launch. They are just far too similar to each other. If the WiiU game was a 3D Mario they would have gotten away with it since Golden Showers is alternating from a 3D Mario. They could have launched with a 2D Mario, but they would have had to hidden GS's existence and launching that later. Any backlash would have been relatively isolated to GS instead of both. A 3D WiiU Mario would have had enough of a wow factor to overcome the issues facing these two games.

But once again, it's only one 2D Mario per system and they have huge legs.  Most of the audience for the 2D Mario games will be buying them over the next several years since Mario platformers are the prime definition of ever green titles.

People have to remember after NSMB U comes out this fall, it'll be at least 5 years until a new 2D Mario is released.  So even if NSMB 2 and NSMB U are too much for some people because of how close they are, any sales one game takes away from the other this year, will be made up in the next several years since the other game is the only other new 2D Mario for a long time.