Author Topic: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity  (Read 16515 times)

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Offline UncleBob

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2012, 12:14:36 AM »
Magazines and radio?

You want to talk magazines?  Do a little bit of google-fu on magazine sales of late.  Check out the number of magazines that have stopped publishing of late... Aside from Nintendo Power and the small handful of other gaming magazines published all by the same publisher, what gaming magazines are out there?  Wizard and ToyFare have both burned to the ground... is there even a comic-news magazine anymore?  Speaking of comics (which are magazines)... wow.  Should we even discuss how hard of a time they're having?

Radio?  It seems it wasn't that long ago, the major terrestrial radio conglomerates were trying to get a bill passed that would force any digital musical player sold in the US to have an FM radio antenna in it... if that's not a sign of desperation, I don't know what is.  For radio, it's just a matter of time until wireless providers get their heads out of their asses (or until technology/bandwidth improves) and we'll be listening to Pandora-esque programs in our cars.  The ability to stream her phone through her car stereo was the only major feature my wife wanted in her new car she just got... and she's far, far from a technophile.
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2012, 12:22:07 AM »
They're not going to add those features to physical products. There's too much room for abuse, and to make it work you'd have to remove parts you like about the physical products. You will never be able to install a game from a physical product and be able to play it independently of that physical product while retaining the ability to play solely off the physical product without authenticating to a server.

And regarding newspapers, go find me a source that said they were going to be completely gone 12 years ago and I may take you seriously. I have family in the newspaper business, and know other people in it through them, and they are going through really rough times. They're either going to die out or transform dramatically into an entity that works on the internet, which they are currently very far from. Either way, they're going away.
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2012, 01:07:01 AM »
I've been digging and haven't had much luck... this is about the best article I can find referencing the push by terrestrial/FM stations to get FM antennas put into some digital music players.

http://www.mobiledia.com/news/73001.html

This article only references cell phones - but I could have sworn there was a similar effort for all digital music players...
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2012, 04:24:37 AM »
I remember reading that as well, so it's not just you.
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Offline famicomplicated

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2012, 05:24:13 AM »
Just to get this thread back on track, I think Sony are doing some cool stuff for their online stores.
*PSVita games are (a little) cheaper digitally.
*There are some PSVita games where you get the PS3 game free and they tie in together (or vice-versa)
*Transfarring on MGS games between the Vita and PS3 to encourage multi-game buying.

It would be very sad if none of these ever came true for Nintendo games/systems.

I mean technically, one day (far from now probably) NSMB2 and NSMBU will be available on the same store, yet will probably be the same price as they were in 2012 and will never come bundled together.
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Offline Chocobo_Rider

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2012, 01:58:33 PM »
@UncleBob

Fellas, the point wasn't that those industries aren't hurting or aren't feeling the effects of the internet.  If you haven't checked, right now just about every industry is hurting, and to ignore the impact of the internet on those particular industries would be idiotic to say the least.  The point was people being in love with predicting the complete demise of things that just never seem to happen, much as you are doing now with physical game media.

Also, Pandora is a radio service. It is even sometimes called "Pandora Radio!"  It's not that those things aren't allowed to evolve.  It's that there is a big difference between evolving and dying out.

Can I assume we're in agreement on the non-exclusivity of those features you mentioned?

@Insanolord

Here's a 1998 article from CNN summarizing the perspective from back then.  "Newspapers should have been dead by now. They lost nearly 5.5 million subscribers between 1986 and 1996, and pundits declared the end was near. Young people didn't read, they said. The Net would replace paper. Corporate owners were destroying newspapers' souls. In 1993, Washington Post media critic Howard Kurtz wrote, 'The smell of death permeates the newspaper business.'"  LINK

Also, you say those features would never be universally added to physical media, so what's different about digital releases that would make it possible?

@famicomplicated

Perhaps I'm missing something.  You like Sony's practice that "encourages multi-game buying" but are disappointed that a console game and a handheld game will likely be sold separately?  Also, since when does Nintendo need to prove they will bundle old releases? Mario All-Stars, Metroid Prime Trilogy, Kirby's Dream Collection ...
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 02:10:56 PM by NinSage »

Offline UncleBob

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2012, 02:14:14 PM »
Also, Pandora is a radio service. It is even sometimes called "Pandora Radio!"  It's not that those things aren't allowed to evolve.  It's that there is a big difference between evolving and dying out.

If you're going to group all music streaming services as "radio", then I don't think you'll find a single source that says that "radio" is going to die out.
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Offline Chocobo_Rider

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2012, 04:45:02 PM »
@UncleBob

The prediction was that with entire music libraries at our finger tips people would no longer want to be at the mercy of random/unknown music, ie "radio."  The fact that people are still willingly participating in such practice (via new AND old services) when they have the choice not to proves those predictions wrong.  But, if you wanted an argument of semantics, I can't help ya out there.

@Bob/Insano

Back to the main topic, can I assume all my unacknowledged points were met with tacet, if reluctant, understanding?

Offline UncleBob

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2012, 05:47:25 PM »
I can't speak for the entire population of the world, but I don't think anyone with any credibility ever said radio would be dead because people wouldn't want random/unknown music.

A LOT of people still listen to radio/streaming services *just* because they *want* to be exposed to new music.  This will *never* change.

As per your other points - some are correct, some are opinion... but here's some more.  Digital releases have the potential to allow you instant access to the media with little wait (depending on your broadband speed), no going to a store and hoping it's in stock, no worries about it going "out of print", no concerns about pricing of second hand sales - and, as a salesman, no concerns about shoplifting and no concerns about taking a loss on markdowns if the product flops and doesn't sell.
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Offline tendoboy1984

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2012, 06:03:33 PM »
Neo, I don't think any such law exists. You see video games, books, DVDs, cars, etc. all sold below MSRP all the times. After all, it's just the manufacturer's SUGGESTED retail price. They can't force retailers to sell it for that. A retailer could sell a new $50 game for $1 if they wanted, but they would only be hurting themselves. A retailer pays the publisher for the game, then sells it for what they want. The lower that the retailer sells it for, the less profit they make. So whether Target sells NSMB 2 for $10 or $40, Nintendo makes the same amount of money since Target already paid them for it.


Wait, if the retailer pays the publisher for a game, then ultimately consumer sales don't matter. Nintendo has their money.
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2012, 06:27:48 PM »
Neo, I don't think any such law exists. You see video games, books, DVDs, cars, etc. all sold below MSRP all the times. After all, it's just the manufacturer's SUGGESTED retail price. They can't force retailers to sell it for that. A retailer could sell a new $50 game for $1 if they wanted, but they would only be hurting themselves. A retailer pays the publisher for the game, then sells it for what they want. The lower that the retailer sells it for, the less profit they make. So whether Target sells NSMB 2 for $10 or $40, Nintendo makes the same amount of money since Target already paid them for it.


Wait, if the retailer pays the publisher for a game, then ultimately consumer sales don't matter. Nintendo has their money.

The retailer only pays for each shipment as it comes in, and Nintendo only makes real money if they order more shipments. Also, if the games stop selling, retailers will stop even ordering the first shipment.
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Offline tendoboy1984

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2012, 06:31:21 PM »
Neo, I don't think any such law exists. You see video games, books, DVDs, cars, etc. all sold below MSRP all the times. After all, it's just the manufacturer's SUGGESTED retail price. They can't force retailers to sell it for that. A retailer could sell a new $50 game for $1 if they wanted, but they would only be hurting themselves. A retailer pays the publisher for the game, then sells it for what they want. The lower that the retailer sells it for, the less profit they make. So whether Target sells NSMB 2 for $10 or $40, Nintendo makes the same amount of money since Target already paid them for it.


Wait, if the retailer pays the publisher for a game, then ultimately consumer sales don't matter. Nintendo has their money.

The retailer only pays for each shipment as it comes in, and Nintendo only makes real money if they order more shipments. Also, if the games stop selling, retailers will stop even ordering the first shipment.


I always thought the retailer bought shipments in bulk (as in a "case of 30 games"). Then when a game is sold to a consumer, the publisher get a certain percentage of their money back. Is that how it works?
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Offline Chocobo_Rider

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2012, 06:35:02 PM »
I can't speak for the entire population of the world, but I don't think anyone with any credibility ever said radio would be dead because people wouldn't want random/unknown music.

And yet, many people did.  Just Google "death of radio" or any similar doom-inciting phrase.  But again, don't let the specifics trip you up.  It's not like everyone gathered around the national sooth sayer and he predicted it.  It's always just the mindless, knee-jerk predictions of every era's Michael Pachters, the general fear-mongering news and the general buzz-hungry populace that perpetuate these notions.  Just as they are doing today by saying physical media will surely be gone soon.

As per your other points - some are correct, some are opinion...
 

Where is the opinion in saying those same things are possible w/ physical media?
 
 
Digital releases have the potential to allow you instant access to the media with little wait (depending on your broadband speed), no going to a store and hoping it's in stock, no worries about it going "out of print", no concerns about pricing of second hand sales - and, as a salesman, no concerns about shoplifting and no concerns about taking a loss on markdowns if the product flops and doesn't sell.
 

 No going to a store / Immediate access upon release.

No.  Online ordering means you can get games on release day w/o leaving your home.

No "out of print" worries.

YES!!!

No concerns about second hand pricing.

Sorry, that works both ways.  And way more often than not, games go DOWN in price and not up.  So, for the vast majority, nope =\

No headaches for salespeople.

Also, no since those folks would be too busy being out of business to care if there were no more physical versions.  But then there wouldn't be good places to sell hardware, which is why the manufacturers wouldn't be happy, which.. again... is why it ain't happenin'.

~~~

So, barring your identification of those "opinions," we have reached a total of 1 absolute advantage.  Which brings the score to 1 vs at least 1 (actually OWNING the media).

Now, even that advantage falls a bit flat when you consider the following ...

A) The vast majority of games are not hard to find within about 5 years of their release unless there is some REASON for it (poorly accepted, very obscure, some kind of controversy or legal issue).
B) After a game generation has passed, we still have to hope those same issues are not in play AND the service provider still feels like offering that game.  After all, even in digital services, games are sometimes taken down, are they not?

Offline tendoboy1984

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2012, 06:42:40 PM »

 No going to a store / Immediate access upon release.

No.  Online ordering means you can get games on release day w/o leaving your home.

No "out of print" worries.

YES!!!

No concerns about second hand pricing.

Sorry, that works both ways.  And way more often than not, games go DOWN in price and not up.  So, for the vast majority, nope =\

No headaches for salespeople.

Also, no since those folks would be too busy being out of business to care if there were no more physical versions.  But then there wouldn't be good places to sell hardware, which is why the manufacturers wouldn't be happy, which.. again... is why it ain't happenin'.

~~~

So, barring your identification of those "opinions," we have reached a total of 1 absolute advantage.  Which brings the score to 1 vs at least 1 (actually OWNING the media).

Now, even that advantage falls a bit flat when you consider the following ...

A) The vast majority of games are not hard to find within about 5 years of their release unless there is some REASON for it (poorly accepted, very obscure, some kind of controversy or legal issue).
B) After a game generation has passed, we still have to hope those same issues are not in play AND the service provider still feels like offering that game.  After all, even in digital services, games are sometimes taken down, are they not?


Look at the popularity of digital music/movies (iTunes, Netflix, etc.) and tell me why that wouldn't work for games. We already have services for distributing games digitally (Xbox Live, PSN, Steam, Nintendo eShop), and those are all doing well.


Pretty much everything is going digital these days. The creation of the Internet meant it was inevitable. And for those of you that still like physical copies, but hate going to the store, there's always Amazon.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 06:44:31 PM by tendoboy1984 »
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Offline broodwars

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2012, 06:59:17 PM »
I'm surprised that no one's mentioned yet that digital releases allow you to access your games immediately without the inconvenience of having to locate and switch out a physical copy.  One of the nice things about my Vita is that I probably have 12-14 digital PSP games and 3-4 digital Vita games on the unit at any one time.  That's 12-14 UMDs and 3-4 SD cards I don't have to be concerned about transporting at any time, and I can easily and quickly switch between games whenever I want.  Sure, I have a portable carrying case for my physical Vita games if I ever wanted to play more than one at a time on the road, but I rarely need it.

As for the immediacy of purchasing, sure you can get cheap release day shipping on upcoming releases at places like Amazon, but for anything older you have to pay a fairly substantial cost to get games on Next Day Shipping.  Otherwise, you'll be waiting a while for your copy to arrive, and that's assuming that the game can be easily purchased online anyway.  By contrast, digital releases can be obtained immediately without having to pay any extra cost whatsoever.  I'll often take the hour or two of downloading a game over the week or so (+assorted hassles with the mail service and intercepting the mail, depending on where you live and how competent your local carrier is) waiting for the physical copy to arrive.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 07:03:40 PM by broodwars »
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2012, 07:11:45 PM »
And yet, many people did.  Just Google "death of radio" or any similar doom-inciting phrase.
I don't think that means what you think...  Quick look brings up articles talking specifically about terrestrial radio or articles talking about the current "commercial radio" business model.  Both of which will need to change and adapt or be destroyed.

Quote
Where is the opinion in saying those same things are possible w/ physical media?

Quickly, the one that comes to mind is about storage size.  I said one advantage is having everything on a tiny chip - you came back with "Well, you can buy them and copy them to a tiny chip."  Yeah, but you still have a closet full of CDs that way.  Now you've got a tiny chip and 400+ CDs.
 
 
Quote
No.  Online ordering means you can get games on release day w/o leaving your home.

And wait for it to come in the mail, hope it isn't damaged, hope you ordered from a reputable vendor and hope they don't decide to hold your shipment for whatever reason.

I tell you what - you place a pre-order for NSMB2 from GameStop.  I'll download it from the e-Shop.  We'll see who gets our copy first and the other pays for it. :D

Quote
No concerns about second hand pricing.
Sorry, that works both ways.  And way more often than not, games go DOWN in price and not up.  So, for the vast majority, nope =\

Mostly true.  If you want a simple, mainstream title, then you'll get it cheaper second hand.

If I want to dig up a copy of Congo Bongo for my Intellivision though....

Quote
Also, no since those folks would be too busy being out of business to care if there were no more physical versions.  But then there wouldn't be good places to sell hardware, which is why the manufacturers wouldn't be happy, which.. again... is why it ain't happenin'.

Yes, yes, robots are going to take our jebs and put everyone out of work.
ATMs may put a few tellers out of work, but it's going to create new jobs of people to fill and maintain the tellers.  I don't feel that jobs should be kept for the idea of keeping jobs around.

Also, I'm confused - why are MP3 Players sold in stores when the stores don't sell MP3s?

Quote
A) The vast majority of games are not hard to find within about 5 years of their release unless there is some REASON for it (poorly accepted, very obscure, some kind of controversy or legal issue).

Which is great if you don't care about obscure games or games that have interesting backgrounds behind them.  Personally, I love to laugh at how pathetic Custard's Revenge is and the controversy that was around it.

Quote
B) After a game generation has passed, we still have to hope those same issues are not in play AND the service provider still feels like offering that game.  After all, even in digital services, games are sometimes taken down, are they not?

Which is why I said I'm not sold on digital yet.  The potential is there... but the service isn't quite right for *me* yet.  I have little doubt that, as digital is becoming more in-force, the various contracts being written up are being done in such a way to cover some of the legal issues we're seeing now with re-releasing older products.

You know, it wasn't that long ago that TV shows would get a license for particular music, but only for broadcast - because TV shows on home media were fairly uncommon back in the day.  We're seeing the effects of this now with DVD releases, where shows have to edit/change music because they cannot get the license for a DVD release or it's deemed to be too expensive to be worth the cost.

So now, most licenses include clauses that cover for a release on home media.

We'll be seeing this more with video games - exact clauses detailing how and when a publisher/developer/license holder come into play with digital releases in the future.

I only wish I had a time machine and could go back to Capcom/Disney-era and get them to adapt these policies back then.
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Offline tendoboy1984

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2012, 08:40:51 PM »


Also, I'm confused - why are MP3 Players sold in stores when the stores don't sell MP3s?


I love this rhetorical question, and I'm going to answer it anyways:

You need the hardware to use the software.
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Offline Chocobo_Rider

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2012, 08:43:21 PM »
@broodwars

... the ability to carry your entire collection on a tiny chip

@UncleBob

1. Having all the games on a tiny chip AND on 400 CDs is still having them on the tiny chip.  One doesn't negate the other.  If you're purely worried about saving space you can throw them out if you really need to =P

2. As for immediacy, yea, I suppose most games would release digitally by noon and most mail trucks deliver around 3 or 4pm, right? So, boom, there's 4ish hours of advantage for digital release. Whoopetydoo! =P

3. Right.  That Intellivision game would be a problem... which is why I said "the vast majority" go down in price.

4. I don't care about keeping those jobs around =P  But if manufacturers don't want their hardware/accessories/merch relegated to general electronic stores they would want GAME stores to stay in business =P

5. I'm not discrediting obscure/controversial games.  I'm simply saying that many of the same obstacles which make certain retail games hard to find would apply to digital versions as well.

~~~

I'm glad you're not sold on digital yet.  Neither am I =)

But, ultimately, the root of our conversation was whether or not digital would make retail extinct in the near future.  I just don't see that happening for a very long time.  What do you think? After the next gen? After two?

@tendoboy

Exactly.  His analogy falls flat because those are general electronic stores.  Not "MP3" stores.
 

Offline tendoboy1984

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2012, 08:48:33 PM »
not sold on digital yet.  Neither am I =)

But, ultimately, the root of our conversation was whether or not digital would make retail extinct in the near future.  I just don't see that happening for a very long time.  What do you think? After the next gen? After two?


Hardly anyone complains about buying music or movies on iTunes (or a similar service), so why would they complain about having digital games?


I've bought plenty of games on the eShop, WiiWare, PSN, and iTunes, so I'm all for the conveniences of a digital future. No more scratched discs, no more broken disc drives.
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Offline MegaByte

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2012, 08:54:48 PM »
Hardly anyone complains about buying music or movies on iTunes (or a similar service), so why would they complain about having digital games?
Well the one difference right now is that games are still tied to proprietary systems, whereas music and movies are relatively standardized or universalized.
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Offline Chocobo_Rider

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2012, 10:54:10 PM »
Hardly anyone complains about buying music or movies on iTunes (or a similar service), so why would they complain about having digital games?
Well the one difference right now is that games are still tied to proprietary systems, whereas music and movies are relatively standardized or universalized.

He said it so I didn't have to.   :D   Well done, 'byte.

Offline UncleBob

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2012, 11:11:46 PM »
1. Having all the games on a tiny chip AND on 400 CDs is still having them on the tiny chip.  One doesn't negate the other.  If you're purely worried about saving space you can throw them out if you really need to =P

I'm pretty sure that current copyright laws require to you retain possession of the original media in order to retain copies... so if you get rid of the original, I don't think you get to keep the copies.

Quote
2. As for immediacy, yea, I suppose most games would release digitally by noon and most mail trucks deliver around 3 or 4pm, right? So, boom, there's 4ish hours of advantage for digital release. Whoopetydoo! =P
Now, factor in the increase in price to get release date delivery as applicable...

Oh, and if it's a Nintendo game that releases on a Sunday...

Still gonna take me up on my offer?

Quote
4. I don't care about keeping those jobs around =P  But if manufacturers don't want their hardware/accessories/merch relegated to general electronic stores they would want GAME stores to stay in business =P
[...]@tendoboy
Exactly.  His analogy falls flat because those are general electronic stores.  Not "MP3" stores.

So, we want to save "game" stores?
Who here cares to save GameStop?  Show of hands?



Also, I'm confused - why are MP3 Players sold in stores when the stores don't sell MP3s?


I love this rhetorical question, and I'm going to answer it anyways:

You need the hardware to use the software.

Um... stores that sell MP3 players don't really tend to sell much in the way of MP3 software...?
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Offline tendoboy1984

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2012, 01:45:27 AM »

I'm pretty sure that current copyright laws require to you retain possession of the original media in order to retain copies... so if you get rid of the original, I don't think you get to keep the copies.

Actually, you can legally copy music to and from CD's through iTunes and Windows Media Player. It's built into the software.
 
Um... stores that sell MP3 players don't really tend to sell much in the way of MP3 software...?


Well of course not. You buy the MP3 player (iPod) at the store, then download all the music through your computer.
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Offline Kairon

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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2012, 03:05:11 AM »
I'm surprised that no one's mentioned yet that digital releases allow you to access your games immediately without the inconvenience of having to locate and switch out a physical copy.

This is why I KNOW that I'm buying Animal Crossing 3DS digitally.
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Re: The 3DS Download Card Mark-Up Absurdity
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2012, 07:55:01 AM »

I'm pretty sure that current copyright laws require to you retain possession of the original media in order to retain copies... so if you get rid of the original, I don't think you get to keep the copies.

Actually, you can legally copy music to and from CD's through iTunes and Windows Media Player. It's built into the software.

I'm well aware of that.

However, your original license for the music is the physical CD.  If you sell, lose, or throw away the original CD, you, legally, are no longer permitted to have the copies.
 
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Well of course not. You buy the MP3 player (iPod) at the store, then download all the music through your computer.

Again, that was my original point.  The store (most generally) doesn't sell MP3s (or, at least, isn't likely to be the one selling you MP3s) - yet they still sell MP3 players.  NinSage is trying to argue that console makers won't be able to get their hardware in stores if they don't let stores sell the games.
Just some random guy on the internet who has a different opinion of games than you.