Topic: Super Smash Bros. Ultimate And The Never-Ending 3rd Party Character DLC

[Caterkiller]

My post from Resetera.

Ok sorry for the ultra late update. I just wanted to be a little cautious even though everything I'm about to mention is more or less known or could be inferred by everything we've already learned about Smash development. This was not an interview, I'm not apart of any gaming organization or anything of the sort. It was just 2 Nintendo fans chatting it up and everything I'm about to mention is super simplified from our half hour conversation. 

So today at the San Diego Comicon I ran into Nintendo Treehouse's JC. Super duper nice guy. You can tell he loves working at Nintendo and is absolutely proud of it. One of the first things I did was tell him to thank Sakurai for Ridley. I mentioned how I am married with children, I mentioned my profession and that I was well adjusted mentally(allegedly). I told him I waited 17 years for Ridley to be playable and I cried real tears of joy during the direct. I showed him the video I posted last month and he sure got a kick out of it. He more or less told me those are the types of reactions he and Sakurai loves from the fans and thats when we got into Ridley discussion.

- The Treehouse folks have been very aware of the constant Ridley debates for years. How could they not right?
- Treehouse tentacles are all over the net.
- Naturally Sakurai gets feedback from Treehouse and wonders who would be a big deal.
- Apparently a lot of characters are discussed but even the treehouse guys don't know who ultimately gets picked.
- Ridley is brought up as the big deal but over in Japan it's hard for Sakurai and the team to understand, he wants to know why.
[/size]- People aren't talking about Ridley and Metroid over there like we do.
[/size]- Metroid doesn't sell so well out there and even over here in the west it doesn't exactly light up the sales charts.
[/size]- It gets explained that Metroid carries a prestige with it and the fans who love it they really love it. -There were other talks about Sakurai's comments regarding Ridley after Smash 4 released, like the too big stuff but I don't really remember.
- Sakurai in the Direct basically said he hopes we don't expect too many newcomers this time around. I'm not quoting JC but man when I heard him say it the way he said it in his own words there was some clear cut weight to the statement. [/font]
- Balancing all 60+ characters is very difficult and it takes a ton of work. Thats a big reason why there will probably be less newcomers than we are used to.[/font]
- Getting everyone back was a huge priority. [/font]

You look at my posts since the Direct I didn't really believe Sakurai and have been thinking 10 total including 2 or 3 echos. Now I'm taking Sakurai's words seriously. I'm just assuming all of this of course. [/font]

We didn't discuss the possibility of DLC at all but after that exchange my personal guess is the majority of our newcomers will come from DLC. [/font]

- We talked about what it was like working for Nintendo and that there are certain people who just fit right in with the Nintendo work place culture. [/font]
- Nintendo is extremely small compared to other developers.[/font]
- Iwata was very familiar with all of those Treehouse guys and his passing was difficult for everyone. Not just guys sitting at the very top.[/font]
- I told him Dixie is my final request. [/font]

Let me think of what else we talked about. The topics of newcomers and Ridley stood out the most by far. Sorry if you expected some major news revelation.

[Luigi Dude]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/95i99m/for_some_reason_the_galaga_remix_from_the_smash/

Get ready for Simon.

Hmmm, I wonder if the leak around E3 was true then.  It had Ridley and Simon, plus every character from Wii U returning along with Ice Climbers and Snake.  So there actually might be a Castlevania collection coming as well.  Hey maybe it might be revealed after tomorrows Direct as well.

[Adrock]

If Simon Belmont is a newcomer in Ultimate (Assist Trophy doesn’t count) and Konami releases a Castlevania Collection without any weird part-download nonsense, I’d be willing to amend #fuckKonami to #fuckKonamibutatleastbuythemdinnerfirst

[broodwars]

Simon Belmont would pretty much complete my list of iconic 3rd party characters you could realistically see in a Smash Bros. game. I mentioned this on Twitter, but I'd love it if his Final Smash was like MegaMan's or (IIRC) Shulk's, where he summons all the Belmonts together in one big attack.

[Adrock]

Holy Cross is the obvious choice, but I doubt Nintendo wants a bunch of crucifixes swirling around in one of its top multiplayer games.

[Luigi Dude]

I cant wait to see what the music selection is going to be for the stage.  The leak already shows Bloody Tears and you know Vampire Killer will get in.  Hopefully it'll get a wider variety that covers the whole series like Metal Gear had in Brawl and not limited to just the early games like Mega Man in 3DS/Wii U. 

[Adrock]

There he is. Simon lashes out.

[Adrock]

34 tracks in Dracula's Castle?! Jebus...

More than 800 total...

[Adrock]

I can’t even wrap my mind around everything.

-Simon AND Richter
-Dracula’s Castle looks aaaaaammmmaaaaazing
-Stage Hazard toggle
-That K. Rool troll then actual K. Rool

[broodwars]

At work so I couldn't watch the Direct, but did they announce any SP content beyond Classic mode? In a game marked "Ultimate", I'd have liked to see at least Adventure Mode return.


That said, they gave me all of the stages & some fantastic new characters in Simon Belmont, King K. Room, and Shovel Knight (and Dark Samus is here for...some reason). Overall, I'm quite happy with what's here.

[Adrock]

There’s a censored out mode. May be Adventure Mode or Smash Run.

Sakurai mentioned bosses, but he could have been referring to a stage boss instead of Adventure Mode. Either way, looks like there's at least a Monster Hunter stage that didn’t get an official announcement unless I blinked and missed it.

I’m disappointed Dark Samus is an Echo fighter. Doesn’t make sense, but whatever something something Simon something.

[Luigi Dude]

34 tracks in Dracula's Castle?! Jebus...

Well it looks like Sakurai saw my post last night.

[TOPHATANT123]

The secret condition that Dracula will appear under is that he will only appear every 100 years.

[broodwars]

The secret condition that Dracula will appear under is that he will only appear every 100 years.

My bet's on a variation of the Konami Code.

[lolmonade]

The secret condition that Dracula will appear under is that he will only appear every 100 years.

My bet's on a variation of the Konami Code.

That's a neat idea, I hope you're right.

[Stratos]

OK Kiddies, see if you can figure this one out.

July: The characters “King” and “Ponytail” will be revealed in a mini direct

August: The character “Old Man” will be revealed at years EVO

September: The character “Archer” will be revealed in a direct of some kind

October: The Characters “Warrior” & “Secretary” will be revealed in a Smash Ultimate focused Direct.

November: The character “Mech” will be revealed in a surprise character announcement

The other characters: The Characters “Rhythm” “Folklore” “Doll” and “Prime Ribs” won’t get reveal trailers until post release.

So...


King = K Rool
Ponytail = Belmonts ('whip' their hair back and forth?)


Though I think this has been debunked now, as Sakurai confirmed all character will be revealed before the game releases.

[Luigi Dude]

It's so funny how after E3 so many people where bitching about how the roster that was shown was going to be it, even though Sakurai said there were still more characters to appear.  Now we just got 5 revealed in this Direct alone and he even says there's still more on the way.  So people only had to wait 2 months before more characters would be revealed but that was too much for some.  I love it when the haters get proven wrong so spectacularly like Sakurai did today.

So with Richter as an Echo I think it's safe to assume Ken is probably in.  With Konami having 3 reps, there's nothing limiting other third parties from getting that many and with Ken being very popular and Sakurai a huge Street Fighter 2 fan (seriously, if you read interviews with Sakurai he spent a lot of time in the arcades playing that game in the early 90's and was almost obsessed with it) I'm having a hard time seeing how he doesn't get in.

Also the interesting thing about Chrom is even though he's listed as a Roy Echo, he has Ike's Up-B.  So that certainly makes the prospect of some Echo fighters interesting if they might borrow moves from other characters that there base doesn't have.

Also when looking at the website Fighter page, we're at 67 unique characters right now since the Echo's are lumped with the character they're based off of.  So we should at the very least get 3 more unique fighters so the website will at least have a character count that goes up to 70.  Plus when you combine all the current unique and Echo fighters together, we have 73 characters.  So if we get 3 more unique fighters and 4 more Echo's, that will give us 70 unique characters and 80 total characters.

Damn this game is just insane.  We have a realistic chance at 80 character or more and over 100 stages with over 800 different songs (with 34 of them Castlevania, Holy ****).  Even the craziest Gamefaqs and Smash Boards dream rosters from a decade ago could have never predicted all of this.

[Stratos]

Chrom is a composite through-and-through.


Found a breakdown of his moves on r/FireEmblem

Alright since there seems to be a lot of confusion in his trailer he has:


Marth/Roy dash


Marth Nair


Roy Ftilt


Marth dthrow


Ike Up special


Roy up smash (Not sure on this one)


Roy Fair


Marth side special


Roy neutral special


Definitely a mash up.

[Adrock]

Neither Belmont has a ponytail...

I’m still holding out for Ayami Kojima redesign-inspired costumes for Simon and Richter. Alucard’s Assist trophy model uses Kojima’s design.

Also, super-excited about the Final Smash meter. It’s like Sakurai and his team just lurked forums for the last couple years and made a game out of it.

It's so funny how after E3 so many people where bitching about how the roster that was shown was going to be it, even though Sakurai said there were still more characters to appear.

Ew, no. Who are these people?

I would have been happy with a near-straight port.

Sakurai: Here’s Daisy.
Me: Well, I guess I’ll shut the **** up now.

Literally every time he shows something new, I feel like he has every right to become this meme:


Then, he just reveals more stuff no thought would be in the game.

[Stratos]

Neither Belmont has a ponytail...

I was suggesting the ponytail was the whip (like the song where "I Whip my hair back and forth")

But, yeah, I was grasping at straws with that one.

[Luigi Dude]

It's so funny how after E3 so many people where bitching about how the roster that was shown was going to be it, even though Sakurai said there were still more characters to appear.

Ew, no. Who are these people?

You've already forgotten how some reactions across the web where after E3?  You were even annoyed at the situation back then.

Is it asking too much that people wait six months or probably fewer with leaks to find out if this is the final roster? Of course it is. I should expect less, not more from the internet.

I mean, people thought they would show almost everything about the game 6 months in advance?  It was stupid for people to be getting angry about it back then and you even agreed.  After today I hope those complaints will finally be dead since we get 5 newcomers in one day and we have 4 more months to go with Sakurai outright saying in today's Direct there's more characters left to show.

[Adrock]

Nah, I haven’t forgotten. You misunderstood. “Ew, no. Who are these people?” was rhetorical, as in I can’t believe there are this many people who can still be displeased with what has been announced thus far. As I said above, Sakurai just keeps showing us more things we never thought would be in the game. I was already happy with less yet I keep getting more so I just can’t get behind these people who are still complaining.

[Khushrenada]

Alright. Let's talk stages. I'm sure it's already been covered elsewhere but I'll do a breakdown of what has been revealed.

There are currently 103 stages yet the picture of Stage Select shows that there is a possibility of another 6 that could still be added based on the black gap on the bottom row.



What are all the returning stages? Well, let's break it down.


Super Smash Bros 64 (7/9)


Returning

Peach's Castle
Kongo Jungle
Hyrule Castle
Yoshi's Island (now called Super Happy Tree)
Dream Land
Saffron City
Mushroom Kingdom


Did Not Make The Cut

Planet Zebes
Sector Z



Super Smash Bros Melee (21/26)

Returning

Battlefield (Technically not the same stage but same layout. 1st time introduced.)
Final Destination (Technically not the same stage but same layout. 1st time introduced.)
Princess Peach's Castle
Rainbow Cruise
Kongo Jungle (now called Kongo Falls)
Jungle Japes
Great Bay
Temple
Brinstar
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Yoshi's Story
Fountain of Dreams
Green Greens
Corneria
Venom
Pokémon Stadium
Onett
Mushroom Kingdom II
Brinstar Depths
Big Blue
Fourside


Did Not Make The Cut

Mushroom Kingdom
Poké Floats
Mute City
Icicle Mountain
Flat Zone



Super Smash Bros. Brawl (26/29)


Returning

Delfino Plaza
Mushroomy Kingdom
Mario Circuit (now called Figure-8 Circuit)
WarioWare, Inc.
Bridge of Eldin
Norfair
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi's Island
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium 2
Port Town Aero Dive
Castle Siege
Distant Planet
Smashville
New Pork City
Summit
Skyworld
Shadow Moses Island
Luigi's Mansion
Pirate Ship
Spear Pillar
75 m
Mario Bros.
Hanenbow
Green Hill Zone


Did Not Make The Cut

Rumble Falls
Flat Zone 2
PictoChat



Super Smash Bros. 3DS Exclusive Stages (18/20)


Returning

3D Land
Golden Plains
Paper Mario
Gerudo Valley
Spirit Train
Dream Land GB
Unova Pokémon League
Prism Tower
Mute City SNES
Magicant
Arena Ferox
Reset Bomb Forest
Tortimer Island
Balloon Fight
Living Room
Find Mii
Tomodachi Life
PictoChat 2


Did Not Make The Cut

Rainbow Road
Pac-Maze



Super Smash Bros Wii U Exclusive Stages (19/24)


Returning

Big Battlefield
Mushroom Kingdom U
Mario Galaxy
Mario Circuit
Skyloft
The Great Cave Offensive
Kalos Pokémon League
Coliseum
Flat Zone X
Palutena's Temple
Gamer
Garden of Hope
Town and City
Wii Fit Studio
Wrecking Crew
Pilot Wings
Wuhu Island
Windy Hill Zone
Pac-Land


Did Not Make The Cut

Woolly World
Jungle Hijinxs
Pyrosphere
Orbital Gate Assault
Miiverse



Super Smash Bros. 3DS/Wii U Shared Stages (8/8)


Returning

Boxing Ring
Gaur Plains
Duck Hunt
Wily Castle
Super Mario Maker
Suzaku Castle
Midgar
Umbra Clock Tower



Super Smash Bros Ultimate Stages (4 so far)


New Donk City Hall
Great Plateau Tower
Moray Towers
Dracula's Castle


So, I expect that there will be more new stages to fill in that bottom gap. Much like how Sakurai has warned not to expect too many new fighters, I believe that same warning will apply to stages. Ten new stages is low compared to past entries but it is one more than the original game had and with all the returning and updated stages there is still a lot to play on.

Adding up the numbers, there have been 116 unique stages created so far over the various Smash games with the 4 new entries in Ultimate bringing that total to 120 at the moment. Of the 116 past entries, 17 did not make the cut. 5 of those are from Melee so it looks like Ultimate won't be able to replace it after all.    In a lot of cases, the stages that didn't make the cut seem to have already had another stage similar to it appear in a later version that I guess is considered superior. The biggest surprise might be Flat Zone 2 from Brawl not making the cut since it returned in 3DS and is the only stage to return in another game that isn't appearing in Ultimate. Some of the stages are of the side-scrolling nature that a lot of people have often complained about. And in some cases, things have changed to make it hard to bring a stage back. MiiVerse is no more. Ridley is a fighter and different than his appearance as a stage hazard in Pyrosphere. I can't say I'm too heartbroken over most of the stages not returning but there's a couple I would have liked to have seen brought back. There's always a chance of DLC to complete things in the future, I suppose.


What are your thoughts on the stages that are in and out?

[Adrock]

Does anyone even like Mushroomy Kingdom? It’s terrible and a complete missed opportunity. Why is it a desert? It should have been overrun with vines and giant mushrooms with forgotten Mario enemies and bosses showing up to attack you.

Disappointed Rainbow Road, Pac-Maze (especially since Pac-Land is so lame), and Jungle Hijinxs didn’t make the cut. I won’t miss the vertical scrolling stages. Otherwise, I could give or take the rest of the cut stages.

[Stratos]

Maybe we can get the rest via DLC?


I really want Pokefloats to return. That was a crazy fun stage.


Have a feeling the final two 64 stages will be in, just seems to much of a miss to leave them out.


I thought the premise of Mushroom Kingdom was a great concept and would like it back too (that was the scrolling stage through the first levels of the original SMB, right?)