Topic: Mario Galaxy

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Kairon

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Originally posted by:
but that they never realized that so far should tell you something.

Yeah tells me that Nintendo doesn't want to take the time to flesh out the multiplayer in a Mario platformer.

[Kairon]

Mario 64 2 never came out GP. Don't you wonder what they wasted all that time on?

[Nick DiMola]

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Originally posted by: Kairon
There are inherent design problems with taking mario into straight 2-player co-op that Nintendo keeps bumping into, and no amount of wishful thinking and incessant complaining on the party of fanbois will change that. Like I said before they've been trying to do this ever since they had the 64DD and put Mario and Luigi jumping around the N64 logo... but that they never realized that so far should tell you something.

Sorry but I can figure out solutions to the problems he is describing. What seems more likely to me is that they are unwilling to invest the proper amount of time to truly bring Mario into the coop multiplayer realm. The solution they implemented for Galaxy is so shallow it's ridiculous.

In reference to the interview,

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The co-op mode - that's something new for the Mario series. Where did that come from, and why didn't it involve two players on screen at the same time?
Well, the idea of having two players on screen at the same time has been around for a while, but we've always been trying to solve the problem of implementing it - there's quite a few problems there, like if one person starts to walk off screen what happens to the other one? Do you make it so the screen can't scroll?

You can solve this problem by making the game either split screen, or you can zoom out the camera ala Smash Bros. Keep the solutions to puzzles close that way the panning of the camera doesn't need to go to ridiculous lengths to show everything on one screen.

I'd love to know what other issues they are running into that are "unsolvable."

Here's my question, if Nintendo can make something as unbelievably innovative as Mario Galaxy, how on earth could they not figure out a 2 player coop mode? It seems to me that they don't want to invest the time or effort to create this. I don't believe for a minute that it is unable to be done.

EDIT: Let me also expand this by saying that I'm not really complaining, because at the end of the day I really couldn't care less. I just don't think that the solution they implemented should be complemented because it is not impressive and not all that interesting.

EDIT 2: I've been thinking about this some more and I realized another glaring reason why Nintendo wouldn't want to do co-op mode, which is precedent. If they did it, it would become precedent in Mario to create a coop mode in each subsequent game. Development time is already lengthy enough, so I'm sure adding a coop mode would extend that dev time to levels of hurting profits substantially on the game.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Kairon
Mario 64 2 never came out GP. Don't you wonder what they wasted all that time on?

Yeah like many of Nintendo's games, they screwed around and then it disappeared. Doesn't mean it was related to the multiplayer, the game could have been a side project or PERHAPS the N64 wasn't even powerful enough.

[Mashiro]

Maybe it's just me but a co-op mode in Mario seems like the worst idea ever with the current games formula.

[Spak-Spang]

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Originally posted by: Mr. Jack

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Originally posted by: Kairon
There are inherent design problems with taking mario into straight 2-player co-op that Nintendo keeps bumping into, and no amount of wishful thinking and incessant complaining on the party of fanbois will change that. Like I said before they've been trying to do this ever since they had the 64DD and put Mario and Luigi jumping around the N64 logo... but that they never realized that so far should tell you something.

Sorry but I can figure out solutions to the problems he is describing. What seems more likely to me is that they are unwilling to invest the proper amount of time to truly bring Mario into the coop multiplayer realm. The solution they implemented for Galaxy is so shallow it's ridiculous.

In reference to the interview,

Quote
The co-op mode - that's something new for the Mario series. Where did that come from, and why didn't it involve two players on screen at the same time?
Well, the idea of having two players on screen at the same time has been around for a while, but we've always been trying to solve the problem of implementing it - there's quite a few problems there, like if one person starts to walk off screen what happens to the other one? Do you make it so the screen can't scroll?

You can solve this problem by making the game either split screen, or you can zoom out the camera ala Smash Bros. Keep the solutions to puzzles close that way the panning of the camera doesn't need to go to ridiculous lengths to show everything on one screen.

I'd love to know what other issues they are running into that are "unsolvable."

Here's my question, if Nintendo can make something as unbelievably innovative as Mario Galaxy, how on earth could they not figure out a 2 player coop mode? It seems to me that they don't want to invest the time or effort to create this. I don't believe for a minute that it is unable to be done.

EDIT: Let me also expand this by saying that I'm not really complaining, because at the end of the day I really couldn't care less. I just don't think that the solution they implemented should be complemented because it is not impressive and not all that interesting.

There so much more at issue and at stake than just zoom and keep everyone onscreen at the same time.

First, Nintendo has created competitive and sorta co-op modes in 2D Mario games already.  I think the best was the Super Mario Bros. on the Game Boy color with 2 player levels.  And then there is the DS battle mode in New Super Mario Bros.  

But 3D  has much larger issues to tackle.

Camera Control Issues.  How do you develop a smart Camera that can keep both players onscreen, enemies, hazzards and pitfalls, and still make the game control well and engaging?  The only possibility is online play.  Split Screen reduces the playing area too much for a 3D platformer.  The problem with online play is that Nintendo wanted to impliment a design that allowed 2 people in the same house to play together.

Puzzle Design and Platforming Elements.  The 3D Mario's how two core gameplay elements at its core design.  Platforming challenges and puzzles.  Each level is carefully designed to create a series of challenging and fun platforming/jumping elements usually leading, or being a part of a puzzle element to get a Star.  How do you design the levels and stars to be won both with a friend and without a friend.  If it can be won by yourself then it may be just one player running to the star to win...if it is a puzzle that needs your friend then you can only play it with a Luigi partner.  As well it begs the question what happens if a second player dies?  Do you all start over?  How do you design the levels to where every player can do the challenging moving platform elements.  How could Luigi's Purple Coins be designed for two players?  It can't.

Enemy Placement:  This is another issue like designing the platforming elements.  Once the enemies are dead the players can be left in a barren level with nothing to do.  If one player runs off, or kills the enemies the other character is left doing nothing.  So then you let them respawn you say...but at what respawn rate, and then coulding an unfair death be designed by an enemy you thought was dead sneaking up behind you?

So yeah issues get very complicated very fast...so I would not just assume there is a easy solution...as I have illustrated even taking the game online doesn't solve all the issues and problems.

[Nick DiMola]

Spak, I probably should've made this clearer, but I would expect Nintendo to make an entirely separate set of challenges designated for 2 players. Reworking the single player mode for two players would be near impossible. All of the sticking points you have with that I can completely level with. Hell even if Nintendo decided they were going to make another Mario that was a stand alone 2 player game I would be overjoyed. Conceptually it's just a goldmine and I know Nintendo could do great things with it.

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: Mr. Jack

You can solve this problem by making the game either split screen, or you can zoom out the camera ala Smash Bros. Keep the solutions to puzzles close that way the panning of the camera doesn't need to go to ridiculous lengths to show everything on one screen.

I'd love to know what other issues they are running into that are "unsolvable."

I think it's sort of ludicrous that we're sitting here playing Mario Galaxy and thinking we could do a better job. Nintendo's already the best there is in the industry, and if they can't even get Mario Galaxy's camera to work all the time on spherical worlds and in ONE player, and if the rest of the industry is continually plagued by horrible camera problems and has been since 1996, it's sort of flip to simply say "Oh, zoom the camera out!" Besides, the game you mentioned, Smash Bros... is TWO-DIMENSIONAL for all intents and purposes.

And that's just one intractable design problem that hasn't been solved for years upon years. Without a doubt, there are more.

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Originally posted by: Mr. Jack

EDIT: Let me also expand this by saying that I'm not really complaining, because at the end of the day I really couldn't care less. I just don't think that the solution they implemented should be complemented because it is not impressive and not all that interesting.

When you can get girlfriends playing, and when you can guide along a less skilled player with your pointer, this feature is absolutely brilliant. Yet another example of Nintendo not giving us what we think we want, but giving us instead what we never knew we needed.

Nintendo isn't Nintendo because they make sequels with bigger and better features. They're Nintendo because they keep innovating in unexpected ways, they keep surprising us, and they keep revealing new never-before-thought-of horizons of what games can and should be.

[Nick DiMola]

Well it's clear our tastes just don't align Kairon, I'll stop beating a dead horse. I do disagree wholeheartedly about a number of issues mentioned. I understand that Nintendo may be the best out there, but that doesn't mean they have all of the answers.

[Smash_Brother]

The funny part? Ubisoft beat Nintendo to the punch on this one via the co-op Splinter Cell campaign which has two agents cooperating through a series of areas as they rely completely on each other for all sorts of crazy actions, like flinging each other over gorges.

The better the team, the better you did. It was surprisingly well done and proved that a multiplayer mode dedicated to multiple players is easily possible. A similar concept with Mario and Luigi could be insanely fun. If they can rethink Zelda puzzles for Four Swords, they could bring the Bros. back for their own adventure, for sure.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
The funny part? Ubisoft beat Nintendo to the punch on this one via the co-op Splinter Cell campaign which has two agents cooperating through a series of areas as they rely completely on each other for all sorts of crazy actions, like flinging each other over gorges.

The better the team, the better you did. It was surprisingly well done and proved that a multiplayer mode dedicated to multiple players is easily possible. A similar concept with Mario and Luigi could be insanely fun. If they can rethink Zelda puzzles for Four Swords, they could bring the Bros. back for their own adventure, for sure.

Quiet Smash, Mario Galaxy is perfect and you should know it is IMPOSSIBLE to do that, Kairon says so.

[Stogi]

Seems like Kairon's open-mindedness isn't as open as I once thought.

[Donutt007]

Ya know if they want to do co-op for the next game it needs to be like this;

Able to play the same level by yourself, so you don't have to rely on a second player.

Co-op does mean "cooperative" so it has to have a way for one player to help another. Not against each other.

Maybe have it so while one person is playing the other is interacting with the environment somehow.

Give the second player certain functions and abilities that the first player wouldn't have playing solo.


 

[Caliban]

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Originally posted by: KashogiStogi
Flaws? I'm 87 stars deep and I have yet to experience a flaw. And don't tell me swimming or meneavuring as spring mario a flaw. This game is everything I've always wanted mario to be: insanely creative; creatively insane.

It being insanely creative and creatively insane, I can agree on.
As I've said before on one of my prior posts, the camera issues I can deal with because I can see that it is quite difficult to create such a perfect system for such a game, yet Nintendo does it better than expected.
However, I do have a problem with the fact that you can't escape from quicksand, yet you still have a chance to escape if Mario touches lava or when he is swimming in frozen water. It just doesn't make any sense to me, and that's probably my only qualm with this game. Anything else I just shrug it off, but that doesn't mean that Nintendo does not make mistakes.
The swimming controls are good, that is until you are trying to jump out the water and you don't know if you should be pressing up or down because all of a sudden the swimming controls are switched, at least to me it creates confusion.

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: Mr. Jack
Well it's clear our tastes just don't align Kairon, I'll stop beating a dead horse. I do disagree wholeheartedly about a number of issues mentioned. I understand that Nintendo may be the best out there, but that doesn't mean they have all of the answers.

I personally would have loved a co-op mode, I'm ALL ABOUT co-op modes! ... But I don't think I can criticize Nintendo if my only objection is based on my own personal pre-conceptions.

On their own terms, Nintendo is successful in Galaxy's co-op mode, something that's actually quite amazing in its ability to reach out to normally non-participatory members. This is the basis of Nintendo's outreach for non-gamers... and it's doing very well for them. They aren't lazy, they have their priorities straight.

And of course, Nintendo isn't the end-all and be-all of development. That's why I buy plenty of third-party software too! ^_^ Lot's of co-op modes in Ghost Squad!

[Smash_Brother]

A co-op Mario and Luigi would need to be like Four Swords: built from the ground up to be a multiplayer game.

It'd be neat, but I doubt we'll see it.

[Stogi]

Honestly I rather Zack and Wiki have a coop mode before Mario. All Mario needs is an old school battle mode updated.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

GEEZ NINTENDO SUCKS

[Hostile Creation]

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However, I do have a problem with the fact that you can't escape from quicksand, yet you still have a chance to escape if Mario touches lava or when he is swimming in frozen water. It just doesn't make any sense to me, and that's probably my only qualm with this game.

It was the exact same way in Mario 64.  Anyway, there's a simple solution: don't fall into the quicksand.

Is anyone else reminded of Pikmin 2 when they play this game?  That was one of my favorite Gamecube games, and the atmosphere/style of Super Mario Galaxy often seems eerily similar.  I think it has something to do with those purely creative environments (entire galaxies that can be based around ideas like toys or a garden, akin to the caves in Pikmin 2).

Can't wait to go home this weekend and play some more of this game.

[DAaaMan64]

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It was the exact same way in Mario 64.  Anyway, there's a simple solution: don't fall into the quicksand.

Ya try continuing to feel that way when you are 60 coins into collecting all 100 hundred and you have to do it again for the third time.  Then you turn around and have to collect another 100 coins while riding on a moving platform.  Then try continuing to feel that way when you have to collect all one hundred with a running to limit.

I want to go back to just having to find 8 blue coins and trying find them in fun creative ways at my own pace.

I don't really have  a problem with any of the other comets.  I like speedy comet because it reminds me of sonic a little bit.  But ya on these collect 100 coin levels the camera does piss me off some times.

[Bizzy_Fatso]

I'm about 45 stars deep in this game, and I already have a variety of complaints.  It's leaps and bounds above the abomination that is Super Mario Sunshine, but for me it still doesn't come close to approaching Super Mario 64's greatness.  I agree with what has been said about the co-op mode...i.e., it's totally pointless.  I would have even preferred a mode where one player is Mario and one is Luigi and you just take turns until either one of you gets a star or dies (similar to the way 2-player mode worked for all the 2-D mario games).

Also, I really hate the camera...I like that they tried to make it automatic in order to give the best perspective in most situations, but it annoys the hell out of me that I can't always manipulate it.  Why can I rotate it on some stages, and not on others?  Why when I go into first-person mode am I limited in the amount I can turn around?  One of the best parts of Mario 64 was exploring every nook and cranny of the world they created, and not having this ability with Galaxy because of these arbitrary camera movement limitations really bugs me.  

- Chris

[Stogi]

Is the camera really that much of an issue?

Have you ever died as a result of the camera?

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: Bizzy_Fatso
Why when I go into first-person mode am I limited in the amount I can turn around?  One of the best parts of Mario 64 was exploring every nook and cranny of the world they created, and not having this ability with Galaxy because of these arbitrary camera movement limitations really bugs me.

Yeah, this is really strange. One of the reasons that Nintendo pushed Metroid into first-person is because exploring your environment is far more natural in first-person, switching to first-person view in games like OoT and Mario 64 is the first and best way to get a real good look at your surroundings. For them to hem that in with Galaxy actually runs counter to their previous sayings on the topic.

Also, I was in some ways disappointed with the camera, which didn't quite deliver on the hype. Certainly the planetoids helped, but maybe I just need to get used to some of the instances where I felt left disoriented by it... Don't get me wrong, the fact that I haven't thought about camera till now is an achievement, but I don't think that Nintendo has quite nailed it 100% yet.

As for your complaints about co-op... well, my thoughts on how awesome it is is well known! ^_^ I played co-star for my roommate almost through his entire game!

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: KashogiStogi
Is the camera really that much of an issue?

Have you ever died as a result of the camera?

I have.

[Nick DiMola]

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Originally posted by: Bizzy_Fatso
It's leaps and bounds above the abomination that is Super Mario Sunshine, but for me it still doesn't come close to approaching Super Mario 64's greatness.

Hating Super Mario Sunshine makes Jesus cry. You don't want to make him cry do you?

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Originally posted by: KashogiStogi
Have you ever died as a result of the camera?

Unfortunately, yes, on many occasions. See my previous posts for examples.