Topic: The Matrix Reloaded!!!!!!!! Spoilers ahead!!!!!

[Hostile Creation]

Spoilers, sort of
I thought that the movie was very good.  The sex scene was not at all graphic, I don't know what everyone's complaining about, and  it did accomplish things.  the action sequences were spectacular; I laughed aloud at the coolness more than once.  Last, while I thought the plot was very good, even better than the first one, I can understand why some people would be disappointed in it.

[Vanilla Thunder]

The "goon" who got shot with the silver bullet was a werewolf.  He was an agent carried over from the older version who was skillful with bladed weapons and whose program could only be deleted with a silver bullet (which is what you kill werewolves with).  Cool stuff.

The only way I can see Neo winning this war is if he actually manages to free every single individual within the Matrix, and we're talking billions of people in doing that.  Perhaps he'll find some system command that can unlock all of the minds simultaneously, and then combine their strengths in the real world to topple the Machines in a Third Renassaince.  In the Revolutions trailer you see what looks to be like a giant war between the humans and the machines, with the mechs and ships battling the sentinels and giant control units.  So maybe...

Still, sounds pretty crazy.  I loved Reloaded's cliffhanger.  It makes for endless possibilities...

And DRJ, do you happen to have access to the final script of the movie?  I'd be really interested to see it.

[Hostile Creation]

Yup.  As for winning the war, he wouldn't need to free every human, just the majority.  One billion people could not power all the robots that are attacking Zion, and if he saves many others, they'll be there to help fight the robots when they come.  That, however, is not the way that it will go, methinks.  There will be another way that Neo will help win the war.
**SUPER SPOILERS**
Remember what he did pre-coma?  It seems his mental capabilities that he uses to affect the Matrix can also work outside of the Matrix.  Which makes sense, since the robots use the Matrix as a source of energy, and are directly linked to it.

[DRJ]

Quote
The only way I can see Neo winning this war is if he actually manages to free every single individual within the Matrix, and we're talking billions of people in doing that. Perhaps he'll find some system command that can unlock all of the minds simultaneously, and then combine their strengths in the real world to topple the Machines in a Third Renassaince

Remember that even if the humans are freed they still will be worthless to the war cause. They wont be able to walk, cant see very well, they wont even know what the hell is going on. They havnt used the muscles ever in their whole life.

Also the humans were defeated by the machines when they were at the hight of their civilization. Their armies were organized. There started the war when they thought they had the best chance of winning, and they lost. Brute force will not beat the machines. Maybe they can make a virus to shut them down, but they cant rely on any humans outside of zion helping.

Quote
Remember what he did pre-coma? It seems his mental capabilities that he uses to affect the Matrix can also work outside of the Matrix. Which makes sense, since the robots use the Matrix as a source of energy, and are directly linked to it.

The machines may be linked to the Matrix, but how is Neo able to tap into it?

Quote
And DRJ, do you happen to have access to the final script of the movie? I'd be really interested to see it.

Ive been looking. So far all I have found is the conversation betwenn Neo and the Architech. If anyone finds a copy post a link.

[Matt]

Apparantly, Revolutions will focus on death... death of either The Matrix or of the people in it, we don't know what yet.

[Termin8Anakin]

With Neo able to use powers OUTSIDE of teh Matrix, Revolutions will be one interesting movie.

[nolimit19]

yea hte only way to defeat the machines is in an indirect way. kind of like independence day. send the virus to the mother ship. neo will have to shut the machines down threw the matrix....or some other computer program that controls all the machines....i dont think by brute force. AND THEY DIDNT SHOW ZION BEING DESTROYED!!! i feel left out. revolutions is going to have to do a lot imo to make up for the holes in this movie.  

[RickPowers]

Spoilers below.  Don't scan this unless you've seen the movie, and aren't quite sure what's going on.  I'm going to break it down as I seem to understand it.

The storyline about there having been more than one Matrix was established as far back as the first movie.  Agent Smith was discussing the previous "versions" of the Matrix with Morpheus when he was trying to get the codes to the Zion mainframe.  It was also foreshadowed (or telegraphed, if you prefer) several times in Reloaded, such as the french guy talking about Neo's "predecessors".

The first Matrix was perfect, but no one would accept it. With the help of the Oracle, they created a flawed world that gave people "choice".  The problem is that while more people than ever accepted the falsity of the world, by definition, a small contingent would NOT accept it.  These people would break free and rebel, freeing others, breaking down the system.  In order to fix this "problem", they created a Messiah, "The One", Neo ... who would actually bring about the destruction of the ones who were freed because they believed in him.  However, again, the problem of choice is handled, but it's not a "real choice.  The One is given the choice of picking a few people to rebuild Zion with, or going back to the Matrix to save the ones he loves, in this case, Trinity.  Predictably, Neo chooses to go back, fulfilling his "purpose".

There have NOT been six different versions of "The Matrix".  There have simply been six different ZIONS, each time destroyed by the machines, unknowingly betrayed (even unbeknownst to him) by The One.  Zion is an eventuality, the result of choice, although just as predictable a result as anything else.  The One is a trojan horse, sent to infiltrate Zion and bring about it's destruction ... and that's why Neo can do the tings he can do.  It's his purpose.

That's right.  Neo is not real.  He's a program with a purpose, just like all the others.  I'm under the impression that "Revolutions" will deal with Neo taking a path that was not predicted, using the flaw of choice to choose to fight his own purpose and destiny and try to end the cycle.  I'm still not entirely sure what the reasoning is behind Neo being able to use his abilities outside the Matrix proper, but I'm working out the logic behind it.  Perhaps Neo is simply a machine himself?

[oohhboy]

I believe that Neo is real and not just a result of a program, or else he could not have made the choice in the first place.

[RickPowers]

Not true.  Remember, the entire point of the series is that the humans developed Artificial Intelligence, and the machines they created rebelled against them.  The computers were given the ability to choose, and chose to no longer be slaves.  Neo being a program but making the choice to fight WITH the humans would be just as reasonable.

We have computers that can do this today, albeit in a much more limited fashion.  It's called "Fuzzy Logic", where instead of a simple on or off switch, the routine can choose.

[baberg]

My thoughts, below:

The humans in Zion are not actually free of the Matrix, they're simply in another Matrix.  The "real world" hasn't yet been seen by any humans - everybody who has "broken out" is actually still trapped, although in a different world than the rest of humankind.  99% of the world can be fooled by the 1999 world.  The other 1% is too skeptical and needs this harsher "reality" because, after all, it's pain and suffering that defines reality (see Agent Smith's comments on the previous version of the Matrix).  

The other Zions were other meta-Matrixes that the machines culled.  Let a few break out of 1999, and when the numbers get high enough to warrant it, track them all down and kill them.  I'm not sure where Neo fits in, though.  Maybe he's a special kind of Agent, as Rick suggested.  Maybe he's supposed to somehow believe he's doing the right thing to save Zion but ends up destroying it, I don't know.

It's kind of a cheesy way out, but the meta-Matrix does explain how Neo can use his abilities "outside" the 1999 Matrix - the "real world" still a computer program that he can affect.

[RickPowers]

Baberg ...

If what you suggest is true ... why would they need Neo at all?  In fact, why would they need the Sentinels to destroy Zion?  The "more than one Matrix" has far too many plot holes to be the direction they're going.  Well, it does NOW, at least.

[DRJ]

The machines dont need Neo, They probably dont even want him and would like to kill him, but he is created through a flaw in the matrix. As the architech said "Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent in the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden deciduously avoided it is not unexpected and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you inexcerably here." They dont want Neo, but they know that he will be created, so they create a control (enter Zion).

So here is what I think has happened.

A Matrix is created in which 99% of all people will accept it. 1% will not and so Zion is created. The people are set free by the machines. In Matrix 1 it is said that there was someone born in the matrix that set the first person free. Anyone born in the matrix is a creation of the machines with a purpose. So some people who will not accept the matrix are set free, but in reality they are still in another level of the matrix, a level that they will accept as real. They then seek out people in the matrix that are part of the 1% anomilies and set them free thus unknowingly keeping the matrix stable. Unfortunately there is one flaw that the machines must still deal with. Eventually "The One" will be born. Either real or not, I'm not sure, but his life is the sum of the errors in the matrix and thus he can manipulate the matrix to his will. The machines then introduce the prophecy to control him. his path eventually leads him to the architech where he is given the choice to save zion or destroy it, and he always chooses to save it, thus he is really helping the machines to maintain control and the cycle repeats. In this case he chose to save Trinity and sacrifice zion. He is then able to utilze more power in the outer matrix "Real World".

When Neo leaves the matrix and the sentinals are ready to attack he knows that they have a bomb even though they have never used bombs before and the computer screen didnt show us anything that could have tipped Neo off. At least the other crew didnt know there was a bomb. Does this mean that Neo can now subconsciously read the code of the outer matrix? He can also control the sentinals because they are just a computer program.

Right now I think that there have not been any humans freed from the matrix. In Matrix 3 I think Neo will destroy the Matrix and set himself free and wake up in the real real world to find that he is the only one truly freed.

If anyone has an explaination that would allow Neo to use his powers outside of the Matrix I would like to hear it. I want to believe that there are some freed humans and that there is hope of overpowering the machines, but I just dont see how... yet.

[baberg]

I agree, Rick.  As I was typing my reply, I realized that Neo isn't really needed at all.  Unless it is as DRJ implies, that Neo's interface (assuming we're in meta-Matrix here) has a small bug in the software that makes him aware of the meta-Matrix.

But then again, why don't the computers just switch him off?  And why don't they switch off the 1% who doesn't accept the 1999 Matrix?

You're right - the meta-Matrix fixes the plot hole of using powers outside the Matrix, but opens up far too many others to be right.

[Hostile Creation]

They can't switch him off.  He's not on their system.  He broke away from their grasp in the first movie, after he swallowed the pill.  The only way they can get rid of him now is to physically kill him while he's in the Matrix (kill him from inside or outside of the Matrix, actually).

Something like Neo destroying all the burrowing robots and then dying could happen.  Just a speculation, probably won't happen.

[Termin8Anakin]

You know, the idea of ANOTHER matrix IMO is pretty reasonable. Tha fact that 1% don't accept 1999 as the reality, but accept the post-apocalyptic underground reality is actually pretty good thinking in terms of trying to control the humans. It's the best explaination so far as on how Neo has EMP.
So I'm willing to accept that until Revolutions comes out.

EDIT: All this talk of ANOTHER reality is actually a pretty similar concept to that in the movie 'The Thirteenth Floor'. If any of you see this movie in the video store, rent it. Like The Matrix, it's a movie that also presents questions on our perception on reality, and it's also less confusing.

[Armed]

Yes i saw it, and it disappointed me, Neo was still as stiff as ever when he fights, he looks like a robot moving around except the part where he used that pole and started kicking everyone sideways that actually looked ok, but his fist fighting, hehehehe it just made me laugh just like the first one.  Also the part when Morpheus was making a speech, that sounded pretty weird how he used emphasism throughout that whole speech it sounded over exagerated.  But the story was pretty good, it was ok, not great, but ok.

[Arbok]

After seeing Matrix Reloaded I would have to give it the coveted "most over hyped film in history" award.

I loved the first, but the second left me cold...

The film seemed about about 30% filler to me, and the fights seemed.... well worn out. They rarely ever reached the same level as the first Matrix.

The dance scene, as others have mentioned, is probably the most painful part. I swear the scene was constructed with the sole purpose of giving customers a chance to run out and get some popcorn.

If I had to make the choice again, seeing Matrix Reloaded or $9, my wallet would be $9 thicker... but live and learn.

[oohhboy]

No the meta martrix would provide too many problems. It would also be the easy way out for the brothers, beening the variant to "Waking up from a dream" plot ending. If the third Matrix ended with that ending, the entire series would have been a waste of time. "Waking up from a dream" plot ending is like a Cardinal sin in writing any story.

Remember, Neo is human, also remember that he does not believe in fate and morphies re-enforces that belief. And because of that belief we was able to make the choice that the last 5 "Ones" did not make.

As for the EMP thing with Neo, seeing how well the brothers have written the plot so far and that this is a 3 part movie, all so called major plot holes would be filled quite nicely.

[Termin8Anakin]

It would, but it's the bst we have on it so far. I wouldn't be surprised if it was.
But man, imagine the crap that the brothers would get if it was.

[oohhboy]

It is the best we have, but considering that we don't do it for a living, the is still pretty bad.

If all the Brothers could come up with is waking from a dream, the matrix trilogy would become the worse trilogy ever produced and the brothers would get more flak than the Dixie chicks. If that was to happen and I lived in L.A. I would happyly help run the brothers out of town.

[Ian Sane]

Well I saw Reloaded on Sunday and I thought it was a pretty entertaining movie.  However I didn't go in with as high of expectations as everyone else which is why I wasn't really disappointed.  I remember I initially hated the first film because every geek praised it like it was Citizen Kane or something and as a result it was really disappointing.  I later saw the first film again knowing what to expect and enjoyed it a lot more.  I went into this film expecting something similar, an action movie with some cool special effects and an anime "question the existence of humanity" plot, and got exactly that.  Because really when you start thinking about this sort of movie too much you immediately realize that one cannot survive someone shooting at their car from another car at close range merely by ducking down.

[DRJ]

Overall I think the movie was very good. There were some problems that I had:

1) Why are the agents such bad shots? They put 1000 bullets into the car in the chase scene, but hit nobody, and when trinity is falling from the building she doesnt dodge at all, all the bullets just miss.
2) The way the twins (ghosts) died was completely cheap.
3) when morpheus and the keymaker are on the truck and they are about to collide with the other truck, why are they just standing there. Why cant they just jump off the freeway and land unharmed a couple hundred feet away? They can just off skyscrapers just fine.

Very good movie. The cliffhanger sucks, but it was very good. I just dont want to wait. Fortunately we will all know the truth in 6 months. If it is a dream sequence then someone is gonna die.  

[Ian Sane]

"1) Why are the agents such bad shots? They put 1000 bullets into the car in the chase scene, but hit nobody, and when trinity is falling from the building she doesnt dodge at all, all the bullets just miss."

I know.  You figure a machine would be the exact opposite and would have like a 99.9% hit accuracy.  But you have to remember the number one rule of action movies: every action hero has a special ability to dodge any bullet regardless of distance, accuracy or the amount of bullets.  Other rules include the ability to shrug off any injury no matter how severe and the ability to ignore real world physics providing that the resulting action looks really cool.

[Termin8Anakin]

"1) Why are the agents such bad shots? They put 1000 bullets into the car in the chase scene, but hit nobody, and when trinity is falling from the building she doesnt dodge at all, all the bullets just miss."

Hmmm, probably the fact that they're falling off a DAMN SKYSCRAPER? I mean, in real life if you really do fall that slow, then you would have time, but geez, you're falling at one hellava speed, so aiming would be the last thing you'd want to think about. You'd just wanna get as many rounds off as possible.

"2) The way the twins (ghosts) died was completely cheap."
Did they really die? They just got flung up and then they turned into their ghost version. Who knows if they lived or died.

"3) when morpheus and the keymaker are on the truck and they are about to collide with the other truck, why are they just standing there. Why cant they just jump off the freeway and land unharmed a couple hundred feet away? They can just off skyscrapers just fine."
The Keymaker has no abilities at all other than to make keys. He can't fight like they can, he can't jump up walls, or land two hundred feet away. Besides, you'd be scared sh*tless to do anything anyway. And if theyr did jump, there'd be all the cars pounding toward them.

Haha. That's just my opinion.