Topic: On Even Terms With Xenon and NOT PS3?

[Avinash_Tyagi]

You know the same thing is going with the PSP, all the hype is due to the fact that it looks cool, ignoring that you have to pay an arm and a leg to enjoy movies on it, UMD's that are useless anywhere else, or memory sticks which cost almost as much as the DS, and games that are the same as on the PS2 for about the same price as a new PS2 game.

And just imagine all the broken systems, it'll make the PS2 seem reliable.

[mjbd]

Nintendo will probably have the same battle against PS3 that they are having with right now with the PSP.  I dont care if Revolution is only on par with Xenon is terms of processing power.  We already know that Revolutions key selling point will be its unique features, and not processing power.  If Gamecube can pull off games like RE4 and the new Zelda, I can imagine that a system with 5-10 times the processing power of current consoles will have little trouble pulling off truely photo realistic games.  The only way I could be disapointed is if the unique features suck, which would be a major let down at this point.

[Talon]

I think the power of the next gen systems is really irrelevant and more so for fan boys to compare dick sizes. I think it would be a safe bet to assume that all three systems will probably be on par with one another and the differences between graphic qualities will most likely be smaller than this generation.

One must not forget that although Sony is boasting about its new Cell technology that the ps3 isnt just a video game console but also a Blu-Ray player, toaster...etc.

Nintendo had the right idea with the Gamecube in the sense that its meant purely for video games only. With that in mind the gamecubes hardware was designed and built around this philosphy allowing for a much more efficient console with no so many bottle necks the ps2 and xbox face.  So although on paper its technical inferior to the X-box in reality there isnt much of a difference between the two in terms of graphics.

So to all those people worried about hardware specs go buy a computer.  Video game consoles are about the games and more importantly gameplay.  Id prefer to play a graphically inferrior game with really tight gameplay as apposed to the most beautiful graphical game that has the worst of the worse gameplay.

Graphics is only part of what makes a video game good. Lets not forget about gameplay, playability and most important FUN.

[KDR_11k]

Another reason why graphics sell is that devs usually give equal attention to all aspects of the game. Bad graphics usually mean the other parts of the game are similarily underdeveloped. Of course, after a certain point it all comes down to skill.

[Talon]

Quote
devs usually give equal attention to all aspects of the game

In an ideal world they do, but in reality its generally not the case for example:
Super Mario Sunshine review on IGN was
6.0 Presentation
8.0 Graphics
7.0 Sound
9.0 Gameplay
9.0 Lasting Apeal
9.4 Overall

As you can see the games sound lacked a bit and the graphics werent quite on par with its gameplay. One of the comments IGN made about the Graphics was 'Bad art and textures damage it' but it sill managed to score 9.4 overall. You will notice that games that have more foccus put onto their gameplay rather than their graphics still score quite high on sites like this one and ign.

There are four factors that face developers when making video-games and/or software and thats

Scope

Quality

Time

Cost
Now you can easily juggle three of those factors but there is always one that you cant juggle at all.
For example if a developer has hard deadlines then the scope of a project has to be reduced to fit into the time frame, if the scope is reduced then cost is generally not an issue but the project itself looses quality.
Likewise if a developer has soft deadlines to meet than can continually get pushed back the scope of the project doesnt suffer and the quality is usually high but the cost of the project gets blown out of preportion.

Developers are constantly trying to juggle these factors and in reality something has to suffer.

[Ian Sane]

Super Mario Sunshine is a bad example because it's rather LAZY graphics and presentation is very un-Nintendo.  Compare it to say Pikmin, SSBM, Wind Waker, and Metroid Prime that manage to have gameplay on par with SMS and much better graphics and presentation.  It's more of an example of a rushed game than anything else.  There's NO EXCUSE for a great game to have graphics like Sunshine had because we have so many examples of great titles that also have great graphics.  Nintendo in particular has shown that the two elements are not mutually exclusive and we shouldn't tolerate it when they are.

Gameplay is the most important thing for sure but a game with great gameplay and graphics is better than a game with just great gameplay.  We shouldn't accept anything else particularly from a company that has proven to be capable of delivering on both elements.

[Bill Aurion]

Come on, Sunshine easily made up for "poor" textures with some eye-popping draw distance...

[Galford]

Here's one main question.

How easy will it be to access the power of Rev, Xenon, and the PS3?

I can tell you from a programmer's stand point, that getting nine processors
that all work independently, to run at maximum power is not an easy task.  

 

[nemo_83]

I thought Sunshine looked great, except the island people.  

[Tanookisuit]

Yeah, SMS looked fine.  What did people expect Super Mario SUNSHINE to look like?  Dark, gritty and bump-mapped?  I think it looks very "Nintendo."  I get dizzy looking at some of the levels from the top (like Noki Bay, for example).  

[KDR_11k]

Galford: Multiply that by four, ONE Cell has one main processor and eight VPUs, the PS3 has four of 'em. Yeah, kinda nasty to code for and hell on earth to debug.

[Don'tHate742]

Unless Sony has a very very intuitive developing program, I don't see "Toy-Story like-graphics" in their future. Developing for it is going to be a bitch. And to make a game that's amazing graphically and gameplay-wise may take a whole lot longer on Sony's machine than the REV.

I am assuming the REV will be manufactured with developers in mind, and un-like the GameCube era, I see that really helping Nintentdo. Nobody wants to spend a year on half a year's work, and Nintendo could capatilize on that concept.

As for Sunshine graphics.....did you see the water?! The game was based around that aspect, and the graphics proved it. I admit that the textures were bleak, but who cared during Noki Bay? That level was beautiful.

[KDR_11k]

The "Toy Story Graphics" are NVidia's job, the Cell does very little for that. Which defeats the whole point of the Cell as it's best for graphics or very simple physics, it's just an overly expensive POWER CPU for everything else.

[Bill Aurion]

I am assuming the REV will be manufactured with developers in mind

During Iwata's GDC speech, he said that deving for the Rev would "be very familiar"...So I assume it will be near identical to work with as the Gamecube...

[ghostVi]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Galford: Multiply that by four, ONE Cell has one main processor and eight VPUs, the PS3 has four of 'em. Yeah, kinda nasty to code for and hell on earth to debug.

What? Where did you get that number from?

[Don'tHate742]

KDR -- That's great! Though too early to call, it seems like Sony is already making mistakes with their next console.

The REV has yet to be even slightly revealed, so it's hard to geuss anything at this point. One thing is for sure, it has to be able to stun.

[Koopa Troopa]

Quote
Galford: Multiply that by four, ONE Cell has one main processor and eight VPUs, the PS3 has four of 'em. Yeah, kinda nasty to code for and hell on earth to debug.

And that is an understatement. I don't think you could pay me to program for the PS3; I might be inclined to try it for fun (gotta love a good challenge,) but I really wouldn't want to be under the gun developing for it.

[Galford]

So KDR, do you think they will go with a four Cell layout?

I find it hard to believe, but then again Sony did develop the PS2...

 

[Gamefreak]

I'd like to take every down a trip through history lane....

Early 90's. SNES more powerful than Genesis.
Mid 90's. N64 more powerful than Saturn or PS1.
Fast forward to right before this generation.

Nintendo - Gamecube will use an ArtX graphics chip and IBM CPU. We won't answer any of your questions about specs cause we're cool like that.
Sony - PS2 is teH RoXXoR! It has a state of the art Emotion engine and can do 75 million polygons per second! owned!
Media - Reports indicate that Nintendo's new console will be inferior technologically compared to the PS2.
Fast forward to unveiling of GCN specs and Rogue Leader. It went something like this.
"Kutaragi - Our emotion engine can render unheard of numbers of polys per sec-SMACK
*Nintendo *****slaps Kutaragi*

Face it, there has never been a home console more powerful than a Nintendo one except Xbox, and even with the Xbox's hardware superiority (marginally) the title of best looking console game still goes to RE4 on Gamecube.

Nintendo always makes powerful consoles, they just don't brag about them. I mean Nintendo's probably the only company in the world that will give you REAL polygon-per-second numbers and even then give you lower numbers that what the Gamecube is capable of. Even on day one developers were saying Nintendo's specs of around 14 million polys per second (i think, can't remember, it was years ago) were ridiculously low.
Even the Wavebird's wireless range on the box is 3 times less that what everyone knows it really is.

Nintendo's a modest company. But I can garauntee you the Revolution will be powerful. Perhaps not PS3 level since Sony is going out of their way to not be the weakest console this time, but definitely more powerful than Xenon because 1. it will have one year newer parts from the same CPU and GPU companies and 2. MS is going out of their way to minimize Xenon costs.

[KDR_11k]

Galford: I'm not sure where I have that number from but IIRC the patent calls four a good standard configuration for game systems and everybody is talking about four Cells in the PS3. The Cell is meant for multiprocessor systems so you can expect at least 2-3, probably four because of the powers-of-two logic prevalent in hardware design.

I think the performance numbers Nintendo gives are meant for developers. When Sony tells you the theoretical maximum you still don't know how much you can do with the system. Nintendo says "we managed to get these numbers in our tests" and the developers can see that these are real world numbers. I think the Cell will also exhibit some bottlenecks like when you have to send data between Cells instead of having everything you need at the Cell where you need it. Sure, it's still pretty fast but knowing game development the glass is always half empty.

Sony claims they can abstract it to the point where you don't even notice you're working with more than one processor but I can gurantee you no dev will accept that. It means you don't know how fat data can be transferred between steps as you have no idea where the instructions are processed and I have a feeling the heavy branching present in games will cause further issues (how will the load balancer react if suddently an apulet has to be replaced but it doesn't know that the old one has to be removed? Will it suddently direct your data stream through other Cells?).

[Don'tHate742]

KDR -- I don't know what the hell you just said, but I like it...

[ThePerm]

hmmm, i wonder how production costs are going to be on ps3 as opposed to xen and rev

[Galford]

Seems to me the four Cell layout was an idea presented in the original patents that where found on the net about Cell.

Also, unless Sony can get the heat down on Cell, a four Cell PS3 should be able to cook breakfast
with no problem...

I kinda wonder how MS is going to sell Xenon's CPU?  Is MS going to position it as a three core unit or as a six thread unit?

[Grant10k]

Quote
Also, unless Sony can get the heat down on Cell, a four Cell PS3 should be able to cook breakfast

"If that port on the bottom of the PS3 isn't for a broadband adaptor, then what the hell is it for?"

"The PS3 Waffle Iron"

[Galford]

"The PS3 Waffle Iron" ...


With all the things that Sony wants to put Cell into,
nothing would suprise me anymore...