Topic: Flaws in Great Games

[Ceric]

Last Area of Earthbound right before Giygas.

[Pixelated Pixies]

Last Area of Earthbound right before Giygas.

All of Earthbound.

 

[Phil]

LEGO City Undercover - initial loading times. After the game has loaded the city, there isn't any loading as you explore the city, only when you enter the police station or a mission


Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D - Lesser frame-rate when compared to its big brother


Mario Kart series - the blue shell


I'll post more later.

[Luigi Dude]

Here's a good one for just games in general, anything that's so obscure it requires a guide to get or complete.  A lot of RPG and Adventure games, especially older ones that have at least one area, sidequest, or item that is literally impossible for the average person to find on their own. 

It's one thing to have secrets or curtain puzzles that they want to challenge the player but if the game doesn't at least give one hint at some of these things, how the **** is anyone suppose to do them?  It's not really a challenge if you make it so the player has to go to Gamefaqs to do it because the game itself makes it impossible to do.

[Pixelated Pixies]

Here's a good one for just games in general, anything that's so obscure it requires a guide to get or complete.  A lot of RPG and Adventure games, especially older ones that have at least one area, sidequest, or item that is literally impossible for the average person to find on their own. 

It's one thing to have secrets or curtain puzzles that they want to challenge the player but if the game doesn't at least give one hint at some of these things, how the **** is anyone suppose to do them?  It's not really a challenge if you make it so the player has to go to Gamefaqs to do it because the game itself makes it impossible to do.

Totally with you. I dislike anything in a game that causes me to put the controller down, but referring to a guide in order to proceed is perhaps my least favourite. I'm reasonably perseverant and won't let a little bit of frustration ruin a game for me, but if I'm consistently having to put the controller down in order to refer to something outside of the game then I rapidly lose interest.

Having to reference a guide annoys me most, however, when it's a good game. If it's a bad game then I either want to get through it as quickly as possible, in which case a guide is welcome, or I don't want to continue playing it, in which case a guide isn't necessary. If it's an otherwise enjoyable game though, the fact that I've found it necessary to put the controller down in order to read an (invariably poorly written) FAQ is a real bummer.

That's partly why I found La Mulana so agonising. There was an awesome game in there somewhere, but the obtuse design just killed my enjoyment.

[Adrock]

Here's an example of that.

I don't even know how anyone even found this. Final Fantasy IX has another extremely ridiculous quest. You have to make it to some room in Memoria (which is on disc four) in under 12 hours to obtain Excalibur II, the strongest weapon in the game. I haven't played the game in well over a decade, but I don't remember there being any hint to that.

[Ian Sane]

I don't mind as much some optional bonus item being hidden away in a way that only the most obsessive players would ever find it on their own.  It's actually kind of neat to have something hidden like that.  I don't like when to even progress in the game you need to do something seemingly random.  There are times where I'm stumped and resort to a FAQ and upon looking at the answer think to myself "Of course!" and there are times where I think "WHAT THE ****?!!"  If it doesn't make sense after you know the answer and it is something one has to figure out to complete the game the designers screwed up.

[Mop it up]

If we're seriously going to pick on Zelda: Ocarina of Time then here's one that's always bothered me.

When Link gets the Giant's Knife/Biggoron Sword, it is explained that the reason Link can't use a shield is because he needs to use two hands to hold and swing the sword. Yet, when you press the usual R button that would use the shield, Link crouches down... and holds the sword in one hand. He can even poke with it using just the one hand. Clearly, the sword isn't too much for him to handle with one hand, so why can't he use his other hand to grab his shield during this? I know that animations were limited on the N64 for one reason or another, but this is a pretty big oversight when this is described as the sole reason for not being able to use a shield. Plus, when you press R during Z-Targeting, Link has a whole new pose of holding his sword in front of his face... which doesn't actually do anything, but looks kinda cool. So why change it here but not for crouching, where it matters most?

Worst game ever.

[Khushrenada]

This turn in discussion just got me thinking about the Phoenix Wright games. Aside from the fact that I'm very, very, very positive that each game has at least two misspelled words in it, there is another problem I have with them.

Sometimes, the next step can be a bit obtuse or you might not make the connection the game thinks you should be making. For instance, during the investigation sequences, there always seems to be a couple times where I don't know where the game expects me to go next. So, I've taken to tapping everything on screen every time I visit and as soon as I get a new piece of evidence show it to everyone again to keep up and make sure I don't forget anything. While it seems to work pretty good, there have still been a couple times where I'm going to each place and it is empty or everyone I talk to has nothing new to say and I'm cycling and cycling through everything to find out what the hold up is and finally I stumble upon the answer and can move on. That always kills my enthusiasm for what is going on in the game.

Then there are times during a trial where I'm just not sure where the game is going or what connection I'm supposed to be making. Sometimes that is the fun of it but there have been times where I need to present a piece of evidence and I just can not figure out what item is needed. I'll just start doing a process of elimination and start going in order and showing everything, resetting as I need to carry on. A few times I've done this and still had no result so I had to look up a FAQ to find the answer and when I get the answer, I swear I already did that step and showed that evidence but I do it again and then it works. One particular answer I remembered that aggravated me was that I had to ask a question or press further about one part of a person's testimony but then after getting that answer, I had to go to a different part of the testimony and present the evidence. My problem was I could see the contradiction already and so was presenting the correct evidence where I needed to but because I hadn't pressed further on that first part of the testimony, it was not accepting my evidence. That is just bad direction on the part of designers I'm afraid.

[Khushrenada]

I love Super Mario Sunshine but I also have to admit, I don't think I'd have ever completed it without a guide. Put a piece of fruit into the turning vent on the drink hut on Gelato Beach? Climb to the top of the Pianta village, stand on the platform there and spray into the sun? Or stand on the golden mushroom and spray into the moon at night in the village? It never once occurred to me do that or think of that as an answer to where items could be hidden.

[Luigi Dude]

I love Super Mario Sunshine but I also have to admit, I don't think I'd have ever completed it without a guide. Put a piece of fruit into the turning vent on the drink hut on Gelato Beach? Climb to the top of the Pianta village, stand on the platform there and spray into the sun? Or stand on the golden mushroom and spray into the moon at night in the village? It never once occurred to me do that or think of that as an answer to where items could be hidden.

Oh and don't forget all those blue coins.  Unless you have a guide where you can check off the spots you find each one as you find them, it's so easy to lose track of which ones you've already found, making finding every single one next to impossible on your own.

[Adrock]

If we're seriously going to pick on Zelda: Ocarina of Time then here's one that's always bothered me.

When Link gets the Giant's Knife/Biggoron Sword, it is explained that the reason Link can't use a shield is because he needs to use two hands to hold and swing the sword. Yet, when you press the usual R button that would use the shield, Link crouches down... and holds the sword in one hand. He can even poke with it using just the one hand. Clearly, the sword isn't too much for him to handle with one hand, so why can't he use his other hand to grab his shield during this? I know that animations were limited on the N64 for one reason or another, but this is a pretty big oversight when this is described as the sole reason for not being able to use a shield. Plus, when you press R during Z-Targeting, Link has a whole new pose of holding his sword in front of his face... which doesn't actually do anything, but looks kinda cool. So why change it here but not for crouching, where it matters most?

Worst game ever.

And shouldn't Link have no problem lifting the sword once he gets the Silver Gauntlets or failing that, the Golden Gauntlets which make him even stronger?

It kind of reminds me of how Kratos can push a titan's fingers apart yet occasionally has trouble lifting stone doors. I get that they're loading doors, but still, it's an odd choice.

[Phil]

I love Super Mario Sunshine but I also have to admit, I don't think I'd have ever completed it without a guide. Put a piece of fruit into the turning vent on the drink hut on Gelato Beach? Climb to the top of the Pianta village, stand on the platform there and spray into the sun? Or stand on the golden mushroom and spray into the moon at night in the village? It never once occurred to me do that or think of that as an answer to where items could be hidden.

Oh and don't forget all those blue coins.  Unless you have a guide where you can check off the spots you find each one as you find them, it's so easy to lose track of which ones you've already found, making finding every single one next to impossible on your own.

Or the awful camera and certain poorly designed levels.


Then again, I don't consider Super Mario Sunshine a great game.

[Khushrenada]

I love Super Mario Sunshine but I also have to admit, I don't think I'd have ever completed it without a guide. Put a piece of fruit into the turning vent on the drink hut on Gelato Beach? Climb to the top of the Pianta village, stand on the platform there and spray into the sun? Or stand on the golden mushroom and spray into the moon at night in the village? It never once occurred to me do that or think of that as an answer to where items could be hidden.

Oh and don't forget all those blue coins.  Unless you have a guide where you can check off the spots you find each one as you find them, it's so easy to lose track of which ones you've already found, making finding every single one next to impossible on your own.

True but I found that after finally locating them all the first time, I never had to refer to a guide on other playthroughs after that. Every area of the game had the same number so I'd know what was left and at least the map would tell you how many blue coins you had found in each area so I knew if I missed something or not. And the ones I couldn't find the first time were sort of imprinted in my memory so that I knew where to look on the following playthroughs I did. But admittedly, a simple fix might have been to be able to have multiple pictures of an area/level with an x made on the spot of where you found a coin to help you out more. The pictures could even look like postcards to fit the whole vacation theme.

[MagicCow64]

I actually don't think the camera was a problem in Sunshine. Aside from the infamously glitchy stuff that occurs once or twice, the camera is just radically unpiloted by the CPU. Managing the camera becomes part of playing the game, and though a lot of people hate it, it set a precedent for almost every third person game that exists today, where the right stick is in constant use to readjust the view on the action. Now, Nintendo decided this was not the way to go, and did a complete 180 with Galaxy and even moreso 3D World, where camera control no longer exists.

[Mop it up]

And shouldn't Link have no problem lifting the sword once he gets the Silver Gauntlets or failing that, the Golden Gauntlets which make him even stronger?

Ha ha, good point, I hadn't thought of that!

[pokepal148]

In oot there are two more things I realized...
First the whole rule of the lost woods

Anybody who comes into the forest will be lost.
Everybody will become a Stalfos.
Everybody, Stalfos.
So, he's not here anymore.
Only his saw is left. Hee hee."

The exception of course being those under the protection of a fairy which as we see in the beginning of the game Link is not. The implication is that the deku tree is performing that duty but that is never fully explained and with the great deku tree dead that duty has passed on to navi but she just ditches him at the first opportunity at the end of the game while the great deku tree is still to our knowledge dead. (what's the point of going into the tree if he's gonna be dead either way,)

Based on the implications made by the timeline Link eventually succumbed to the lost woods curse thus becoming the hero's shade. Did Navi know this was supposed to happen and that's why she suddenly left at the end of the game?

[pokepal148]

The ending of OOT as I think of it also makes little sense. Link's goal is to prevent ganondorf from entering the sacred realm and acquiring the triforce so let's break down the three endings

Hero falls: Link dies and ganon is sealed in the sacred realm with the triforce of power.

Future timeline: Ganon shows up again and hyrule gets flooded, again he has the triforce of power.

Link's childhood: link returns and somehow convinces the king not to trust Ganondorf when his daughter, who apparently has some gift of prophecy that people know about is unable to do so herself.

Later on the sages try to execute ganondorf and learn that he has somehow gained the triforce of power because... I dunno,
 

Either way he failed all three times, way to go hero.

[pokepal148]

And Malon, when you first meet her she is immediately able to deduce based on your clothing style and accompanying fairy that you are from the forest. Wait a minute...

How does she know that

A. There are people living in the forest

And B. Said people tend to dress like peter pan and have a fairy around them.

The only way for her to know that would be for her to have met someone who has visited the forest or to have visited there herself, but wait anyone who enters the forest becomes a stalfos, (or skull kid if they are kids) so where did she get this information?

And in the future if you complete her obstacle course with epona in a certain amount of time she has a cow delivered to your house, HOW??? She would have had to enter the forest, find out which house belongs to link, find a way to get the cow safely up the ladder and into his home, and get out but all of this implies she didn't become a stalfos which of course she didn't so how would she be able to do that?

[NWR_insanolord]

The only way Link could have truly succeeded in OoT is if he found the spiritual stones and then buried them in a random unmarked spot. Ganondorf got the Triforce of Power because Link opened the Door of Time, which he does in all three official timeline paths.