Author Topic: Mafia 73: Phoenix Wright: Turnabout Mafia: Endgame thread.  (Read 11704 times)

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Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Mafia 73: Phoenix Wright: Turnabout Mafia: Endgame thread.
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2017, 06:00:04 PM »
You know speaking of time stamps I misstook that we didn't have that much time when we voted on the second day but it turned out that we had till the morning to vote so you see the Insanolord and Mop it up votes by Khushrenada and Fatty the Hutt after our votes.  I has a bit worried about that.
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Offline that Baby guy

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Re: Mafia 73: Phoenix Wright: Turnabout Mafia: Endgame thread.
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2017, 10:50:56 PM »
Day 2 arrived, and we waited pretty eagerly. My gambit had paid off, but at the same time, we were in damage-control mode with Insanolord, which became damage-control for BeautifulShy.

The plan today was to exploit Khushrenada's protection actions as best as possible.

And at first, it seemed not one of you took the bait, though I suppose only two players could take the bait.

Not one player, outside of Khushrenada and the mafia, contacted me for advice or with the goal of forming an alliance, or anything.

If I recall correctly, I started this day out with two pieces of advice to my mafia. First off, the longer Insanolord and/or BeautifulShy go without being voted out, the longer it should take before other members of the mafia face too much skepticism.

I had initially planned for Insanolord to continue pretending he was the investigator, as outlined at the end of my last post. I gave it some thought, and realized the choice wasn't really mine. I presented him with two options: He could continue pretending, like I would do and like I imagine Khushrenada would do in his place, or he could come clean to the players he messaged about having a role, which is what most players would do. He chose the latter, unfortunately.

The second, a much, much more meaningful piece of advice for any player in the mafia: When you are in the mafia, you know you're guilty. But every other player out there? They're innocent. That means any apparent action you take to keep them alive? To them, it has a great chance of being an action to save someone who is a townie, and can go a long way toward building trust, whether it is merited or not.

I followed that second piece of advice the second day. I reached out to nickmitch, and basically said I'd like to try to put together a force to save him, but had little reason to do so. I had already voted for Fatty_the_Hutt in the thread, who was literally a scapegoat. Had I been a townie, I would have certainly voted for Insanolord on Day 2, unless he had contacted me and said he was the investigator, in which case, I would have voted someone who went after him the day before without anything better to go on. I used Fatty just because he mentioned every player participating, and tried to color as an effort to place blame on everyone but himself, calling it a mafia tactic.

To be honest, I wish I could have gone somewhere else with this vote. Players who participate are awesome. Players who discuss things, post, and analyze are why I enjoy this game. But I was the godfather. There wasn't room for that. I needed a scapegoat, and he was the only player posting for whom I could think of an angle of attack.

My move to save nickmitch paid off, and he confided his role and that he didn't investigate the day before. He also confided that he was fairly certain Insanolord was mafia, as Insanolord had messaged him claiming to have nickmitch's role. That's when a new plan was concocted. One to cast doubt on nickmitch and try to turn him into a villain for a day. I had thought the plan was pretty clever, myself. I was hoping it would make the third day easier. We'll get into that later.

The difficult part? Convincing nickmitch that instead of voting out two players who were obviously mafioso, it would be smarter to leave them in the game for a round or two to analyze their actions and get hints on the other members of the mafia. I provided nickmitch's name to Khushrenada as a means of adding trust, and provided Khushrenada's role to nickmitch in effort gain his trust and influence his actions. In doing so, I managed to convince him to leave Insanolord and BeautifulShy to vote out for another day, investigate a player (I gave a list and honestly don't even remember who was investigated) that did not have a role, and take part of a vote for a player (Fatty_the_Hutt) for virtually no reason.

I had set a plan in action, as well, to publicly expose nickmitch the following day. The townie alliance was extremely limited in size. It was me, Khushrenada, and nickmitch. It appeared larger in part because of Mop it up. BeautifulShy and Insanolord were instructed to stay away from this bandwagon in hopes of at least being able to say they didn't vote out a townie.

Unfortunately, this meant I had to hit Khushrenada this night. As Khushrenada stated, we often play together, even on opposite sides. He makes the game more interesting, as I think was clear he feels I make the game interesting as well. I could go through interesting moments throughout mafia, but he hit quite a few of them in his post, and a lot of them came from times we worked in conjunction or against each other, or even that one time we hosted what was probably the most complicated game overall.

All things said, because the pieces of my plan came together and fit so neatly in my mind, with a townie losing the vote, Insanolord & BeautifulShy living for another day, being able to convince nickmitch to investigate a no-role townie, and change his vote, the lack of investigation on day one, because all these things fit together, I had confidence I could spin a narrative together that he was mafia who faked his role because the pressure was on, and then used information I provided to make a hit on Khushrenada. The plan moved forward, the hit was sent, and the mafia lived through Day 2.

Edit note: Don't let Khushrenada fool you, either! There was definitely enough evidence at this point between him and nickmitch that he was well on the way to figuring out my duplicity! He might be acting humble, but if he had been alive in the game by Day 3, if this occurred with someone else as the doctor and Khushrenada as a random townie? There is no way he would have allowed nickmitch to be voted out within his power. I didn't target him because I knew this about him, not at all. More, it was just more elements of the plan that all somehow fit together by chance. In my plan, the doctor had to die. For the plan to work, Khushrenada could not be in the game. Had he not been the doctor, I would not have put a hit on him at any point at this time, and instead, I would have had to form a much different plan that involved being much more discreet.

Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Mafia 73: Phoenix Wright: Turnabout Mafia: Endgame thread.
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2017, 12:19:51 AM »
This is why I've always enjoyed playing the game with Thatguy in it. The shenanigans!!!

Edit note: Don't let Khushrenada fool you, either! There was definitely enough evidence at this point between him and nickmitch that he was well on the way to figuring out my duplicity!

Ha ha ha! Ah, the big fear of Mafia games: Don't be fooled by Khushrenada. What a reputation I've gained. No one wants to trust me no matter how much I may help them or prove to be on their side in a game because it might still all be part of some grand master plan. Am I really the Mafia boogeyman?

As for figuring things out, I'm guessing thatguy is referring to the only real bit of analysis I did this game. I'll post it here to give players an idea of how I try to work things out in a game.

After Day 2 had begun and thatguy swore he was too busy and tired to be Mafia to self-hit and wished he was Mafia to take advantage of it (looks like you got your wish!), he posted for players to contact him and start a townie alliance. But after the first 24 hours or so, nothing had really happened and he told me no one had contacted him. Finally, around the evening of the 27th, he sent me this pm:

And... nickmitch says he's the investigator, but skipped day one. I'm asking him to investigate stevey, Stratos, or Stogi, since they're always so tough to read. He wanted to investigate you, but I figured if I steer him away, that'll be best for now. In true nickmitch fashion, he says he missed the deadline for investigations on day 1, so it never happened.

And the funny part? He says Insanolord contacted him yesterday and claimed to be the investigator. If he were mafia, I think Insanolord would have been hit. If Insanolord was mafia, it's definitely a weird, out of character move on his part. So I'm going to try to keep both of them alive tonight, reach out to Insanolord, and see if I can't get him to work with me.

So, this is an odd situation. We've been given news that two people are claiming to be the investigator and it involves the two central players in the first day 1 bandwagon who both were getting votes into day 2.

I knew that Day 2 was coming to a close in the morning of the 28th. Later that night, before bed, I thought about it and that I should try and give thatguy an answer to help him if he's trying to decide what to do instead of just leaving all the work to him for a townie victory. Thus, I tried to consider the various scenarios that could explain this situation and what we actually knew for sure while trying to figure out what the most likely motive would be based on those scenarios and comparing it to my recollections of the player's past game history. This was my reply:

I'm going to chance it and vote Insanolord. If nickmitch is Mafia, it makes no sense to claim investigator so early on just to target Insanolord. That lie could be exposed very fast. Unless he believes Insanolord to be the investigator and is willing to sacrifice himself to get him removed by vote but why not hit him? There are others that tried to target Insano so his tracks would be covered enough.

So, let's trust that Nickmitch is the investigator. What does that make Insanolord? If Insano is Mafia then his lie could be exposed if the investigator dies so why risk the claim? It could have been a desperation move to sway the vote and save himself but he could have claimed any other role to do that. Moreover, desperation doesn't really mean he's Mafia. He could be a townie protecting himself or he could have a different role and didn't want to give it away but that just leaves townie whore.

Of course, we just have Nickmitch's word that Insanolord said it and it's pretty convenient that he has no investigation result despite claiming to be the investigator and voting near the end of Day 1.

Insanolord is right that Nickmitch willing to vote a player on Day 1 is unusual yet it could be that he has a townie role like investigator and is trying to play harder not to blow the role and harm the townies. Moreover, I can't think of a time where Nickmitch has schemed in such a way to falsely claim a role just to target one player especially so early in the game. Thus, I'm going to do what I said and join Stogi in voting Insanolord to possibly cause a tie and see if Insano is saved by the whore giving that possibility some credence.

I'm also going to protect Nickmitch just in case Insano is Mafia and he wants to cover his tracks. If one of them is the investigator, I feel I should try to protect one and Nickmitch seems more believable than Insano at the moment. Unless you want the protection again. I'm perfectly fine with doing that but I just think the Mafia will be shy to target you again with their first hit on you failing and will turn elsewhere.

One last note on Insanolord. He was investigator in a recent game I hosted called Animal Kingdom aka Mafia 68. He was a lot more cautious about revealing his identity as investigator to someone unless they were a confirmed townie role despite the fact he got targeted a lot in the early going and was almost voted out a few times. For him to risk giving away his identity so soon in this game seems a bit out of character but maybe he's changing his approach after that game.

I was disappointed didn't change his vote to Insanolord also that day but I wasn't sure if he got the message in time or not. Later, thinking on this scenario, I just didn't see why the Mafia would target Nickmitch that night if he hadn't told anyone else his role with the only exception being to hide a lie told by Insanolord but that could always be dismissed or a false story by Nickmitch. Thus, I went with my Mop it up choice feeling she might have been a higher priority for the Mafia if they didn't target me.

As I read Day 3, it became pretty clear who was Mafia then. Thatguy sent me a message early in Day 3 apologizing for the fact he had to remove me from the game and lie to me. At this point, BeautifulShy seemed to be in cahoots with thatguy and Insanolord seemed pretty much exposed with Nickmitch even calling them both out. By Day 4, the last member Mop it up finally became clear with Stogi even calling her out. I thought thatguy was going to have to start voting out his mafia members to keep himself hidden because he seemed to be exposing himself by playing pretty hard and boldly giving away all kinds of info but despite various members being exposed, townies failed to organize in time.
Whoever said, "Cheaters never win" must've never met Khushrenada.

Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Mafia 73: Phoenix Wright: Turnabout Mafia: Endgame thread.
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2017, 02:51:01 AM »
Quote
As I read Day 3, it became pretty clear who was Mafia then. Thatguy sent me a message early in Day 3 apologizing for the fact he had to remove me from the game and lie to me. At this point, BeautifulShy seemed to be in cahoots with thatguy and Insanolord seemed pretty much exposed with Nickmitch even calling them both out. By Day 4, the last member Mop it up finally became clear with Stogi even calling her out. I thought thatguy was going to have to start voting out his mafia members to keep himself hidden because he seemed to be exposing himself by playing pretty hard and boldly giving away all kinds of info but despite various members being exposed, townies failed to organize in time.

Yeah the 4th day it was pretty apparent that us 4 were mafia because how we were acting on day 2 and 3 so we spread out our votes to avoid the majority and we basically were going to chance things with us all voting for lolmonade and being exposed and being voted out in quick succession or voting out lolmonade and winning in perfect fashion. Well you see the result.
Maxi is dead. I killed him and took his posts and changed genders.
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Offline that Baby guy

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Re: Mafia 73: Phoenix Wright: Turnabout Mafia: Endgame thread.
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2017, 03:16:29 PM »
I guess it's time to talk about Day 3 and Day 4.

I had a plan outlined for Day 3. Blame nickmitch for everything, basically. I waited to ensure whomever it was he investigated as not the town whore, since that was the only factor I could think of that would ruin my plan, as nickmitch would likely feel comfortable getting in contact with such a person, which would leave me out of control of crucial information.

He did not find the role, so I made my choice.

Khushrenada messaged me before the end of Day 1. My claim was that he contacted me after he saved me from the hit. I was careful with language. He was not alive to refute my claims. nickmitch didn't make much of a case for himself. In fact, he didn't make any case for himself.

It looked like no one took my bait, and I was worried at first. Then Stratos reached out. Finally, I had found the vote changer. He believed me, forgot to vote, but changed the vote in my favor. It was an easy day.

That night, I had a choice. I could kill Stratos and eliminate the vote-changing role, which looks like the best move in a long game, but when one looked at the pathway from where we began to now, including Stratos in the mafia hit would leave just a few too many coincidental lucky hits, and I was concerned that if the game did end up having legs after Day 4, then such a move would become the tipping for players to finally ask "Who would kill people in this order like this?" and draw me as a conclusion, though, as Khushrenada points out, I was gradually growing less and less concerned about my cover.

Day 3 ended, I picked a townie who voted for Mop it up and who was communicating. It was actually at Mop it up's recommendation, and I think she made an astute observation when preparing for Day 4. We knew our greatest enemy wasn't that at least two of us were on the voting block day after day, but rather, our concern was seeing the townies unite and all go after the same target. If that happened and if inactive players suddenly showed up, we knew there was potential trouble.

So at Mop it up's recommendation, I think it was Silenced that we hit. He seemed the most likely to rally townies to a voting alliance, even if for just one day, and the hit on someone who didn't vote Insanolord or BeautifulShy on this day would put suspicion on someone else.

Which brings us to Day 4's strategy. Day 4, the goal wasn't to really even fool anyone. In the PM I sent to the mafia, I called it "Divide and conquer." Our goal was to spread votes around. To try to get votes on me, on Mop it up, on Insanolord, and on BeautifulShy, but not an overwhelming amount of votes on any one of us in particular. It went well enough... I voted for Insanolord early on since the votes the day before went against BeautifulShy, and I invited voters to vote for me for my "mistake" the day before. In the end, it was still BeautifulShy vs. Insanolord among the townie voters, but it was divided enough for us to succeed.

At this point, I also wasn't very concerned with my cover. I knew if we could just convince one townie to vote for another townie, we would have enough votes for a win, should Stratos be inactive. I knew if Stratos was active, and we could get him to change votes the way we wanted, we'd almost certainly win regardless. What's the saying? "You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time." In this case, I realized the general townies just... weren't paying attention to what I was doing. Really. So I narrowed my focus to just "some of the people."

I sent Stratos a message in the second half of the day. I figured if he was still on page with me, his help might be useful or needed, and if he wasn't, I'd get an idea if he would be changing a vote or leaving things as is. I also knew our plan, as the mafia, was a last minute torrential vote against one player.

Once again, I refer back to my decisions earlier in the game to make efforts to control all the information. I was fairly certain nickmitch had not been in great contact with other players. I knew other players weren't in contact with other players. I knew Stratos was not in contact with other players. I used this to my advantage. In PMs, I claimed that nickmitch contacted me after the vote, but before the results to pass on the one player he did manage to investigate. I claimed this player was Insanolord. This would fall in line with most player's preconceived notions. Investigate the people who look the most like mafia, and once confirmed, kill via vote. It doesn't quite line up with nickmitch's Day 3 vote, but the amount of cognitive dissonance needed to accept it would be at a minimal.

I stated he reached out still, even after all I said because I was still the only player he knew was a townie outside of Insanolord. I then claimed my vote against Insanolord was a move intended to finally draw out the mafia members. I reasoned that anyone willing to vote against Insanolord at this point was highly likely to be mafia. Lolmonade took Insanolord's bait to discuss things, but didn't change his vote. That made him the perfect scapegoat this time around. I convinced Stratos to slide the votes against lolmonade, and had braced him for the idea that a small townie alliance would be voting him out near the end of the day, hoping he wouldn't realize this was the mafia trying to push in suspicious votes last minute near the end.

On this day, we avoided telling the townies that this was their last chance. Anything that would get townies to start talking, to realize the stakes, and to all team up and go after one of the two obvious targets was discouraged, killed, or dealt with preemptively in private messages, though by this point, there wasn't much. My vote for Insanolord guided the townies to split their votes once again, and even had it not worked, a reasonably planned message for Stratos helped to seal our victory.

Offline that Baby guy

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Re: Mafia 73: Phoenix Wright: Turnabout Mafia: Endgame thread.
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2017, 03:33:26 PM »
At the end of each game, I usually post advice, mafia or not, that would be helpful for the general player.

I've got a few pieces here. First, decentralize information! Don't ever rely on one player to make all the decisions, and don't rely on one player to hold all the information. In my case, as godfather, I was able to control just about any real information in the game, but even when there's not a circumstance with a mafia godfather, if the game is centralized on one player, then there is a great risk of the mafia hitting said player each and every night. If one player controls it all, the townie alliances are lost. Decentralized information also disallows a lying player from reaching too far. If nickmitch had shared the results of the second night's investgation with another player, or even stated who he investigated in Day 3's thread, I wouldn't have been able to claim he told me, and only me this investigation.

Additionally, the doctor, as a townie player, can actually wield an immense amount of power, especially if he has self-protections. Imagine being able to safely message a few random players at the beginning of the game. Tell them that you're the doctor, and that you intend to investigate them on this night. As the night passes, they make the move I do. Boom, suddenly, there's a dead townie killed by the mafia. Furthermore, if Khushrenada had picked three players to share this message to, and I had killed myself, he'd suddenly find much, much more reason to trust the other two players. Past that, if he told it to three players, and more than one of them were in the mafia, he would stand a chance at psyching them out of hitting him, imagining he's a townie just aiming to get reactions, especially since it would be clear he's drawing attention to himself.

The biggest thing I learned from this game? For the mafia, it isn't always about persuading the majority. It was clear this group of townies refused to work with each other. Refused to have discussions. Refused to work things out. They all saw something obvious, that Insanolord and BeautifulShy were mafia, but refused to accept that any of them were at fault when day after day, these players still wound up alive, surviving the day's vote. These players played right into our hands. We didn't have to convince them, on the whole, that they were wrong late into the game. I only once made an argument that Insanolord and BeautifulShy weren't mafia. While the mafia had solidarity, the townies had disharmony to an extreme I don't know if I've seen before, so I only needed to focus my efforts on gaining one or two votes to vote out a townie each day.

Mafia isn't a guessing game. It's a game of politics, deception, and intrigue. This time around, I played the politician. I had a base of a few townies, and told them what they wanted to hear. I had a plan. I had a solution for everything. By the time any one player had enough information that they would realize with enough certainty to act what I was doing, they were out of the game... But had there been contact by these people outside of my group, I'd have been figured out by Day 4, and the entire mafia would have likely lost, depending on how well Mop it up kept a cover, which we had started to do away with anyway, given our fourth-day plan.

Offline TOPHATANT123

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Re: Mafia 73: Phoenix Wright: Turnabout Mafia: Endgame thread.
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2017, 08:12:13 AM »
Good game everyone!

Offline Fatty The Hutt

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Re: Mafia 73: Phoenix Wright: Turnabout Mafia: Endgame thread.
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2017, 10:52:33 AM »
As for my self-sacrifice play on Day 2, I got tripped up by thread closing. I had hoped to sway some votes toward Mop it up, who I was pretty sure by then was Mafia, but I put up my impassioned plea way too close to thread-closing time. I had read the timestamps incorrectly.
Ah, that explains it! I was wondering why you didn't tie it up to save yourself. I was actually sad that Thatguy chose you to vote out, I was enjoying your character.
Thanks! That's probably my favourite part of any Mafia game is taking a character and hamming it up (not that I've played too many Mafia games ... yet). I had fun hamming it up as Extreme French-Bird Jacques in the Animal Crossing New Leaf Mafia too. I love the role-play that people get into.
Oui, Mon Gars!

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Re: Mafia 73: Phoenix Wright: Turnabout Mafia: Endgame thread.
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2017, 11:07:14 AM »
That's probably my favourite part of any Mafia game is taking a character and hamming it up (not that I've played too many Mafia games ... yet). I had fun hamming it up as Extreme French-Bird Jacques in the Animal Crossing New Leaf Mafia too. I love the role-play that people get into.
Role-playing? Hamming it up? What are you, some kind of sissy?
You listen up, buddy boy-o, we got an important job to do. We're fighting for Freedom, for Democracy, for everything that's still good in this God-forsaken world! I don't need my soldiers wasting their time mimby-pambying around like some kind of cabaret dancer. Shape up, Bucko!
Damn those sonsabitches all to Hell!!!

Offline Wah

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Re: Mafia 73: Phoenix Wright: Turnabout Mafia: Endgame thread.
« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2017, 02:44:13 AM »
So Khush who's hosting the next game?
Made you look ****.

Offline pokepal148

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Re: Mafia 73: Phoenix Wright: Turnabout Mafia: Endgame thread.
« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2017, 03:40:04 AM »
That's not a good sign.

Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Mafia 73: Phoenix Wright: Turnabout Mafia: Endgame thread.
« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2017, 04:48:27 AM »
I don't know. I'm laughing already and the game hasn't begun so maybe this is a good thing?

So Khush who's hosting the next game?

We'll never know. There was a list of hosts for Future Mafia Games but then Cattank stormed these forums and nuked it out of existence. And we were so close to Mafia 75. If only there was some brace soul who was willing to host Mafia 74 now... Someone with the charisma of Waluigi.... But I guess it's impossible to find someone like that here. :(
Whoever said, "Cheaters never win" must've never met Khushrenada.

Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Mafia 73: Phoenix Wright: Turnabout Mafia: Endgame thread.
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2017, 11:43:39 AM »
As for my self-sacrifice play on Day 2, I got tripped up by thread closing. I had hoped to sway some votes toward Mop it up, who I was pretty sure by then was Mafia, but I put up my impassioned plea way too close to thread-closing time. I had read the timestamps incorrectly.
Ah, that explains it! I was wondering why you didn't tie it up to save yourself. I was actually sad that Thatguy chose you to vote out, I was enjoying your character.
Thanks! That's probably my favourite part of any Mafia game is taking a character and hamming it up (not that I've played too many Mafia games ... yet). I had fun hamming it up as Extreme French-Bird Jacques in the Animal Crossing New Leaf Mafia too. I love the role-play that people get into.

I loved your French-Bird Jacques roleplay in New Leaf Mafia. It's actually the avatar I still picture you by despite all the other pics you've used over the years.
Whoever said, "Cheaters never win" must've never met Khushrenada.

Offline Fatty The Hutt

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Re: Mafia 73: Phoenix Wright: Turnabout Mafia: Endgame thread.
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2017, 02:51:29 PM »
That's probably my favourite part of any Mafia game is taking a character and hamming it up (not that I've played too many Mafia games ... yet). I had fun hamming it up as Extreme French-Bird Jacques in the Animal Crossing New Leaf Mafia too. I love the role-play that people get into.

I loved your French-Bird Jacques roleplay in New Leaf Mafia. It's actually the avatar I still picture you by despite all the other pics you've used over the years.
Merci, mon gars!
Oui, Mon Gars!

Offline Mop it up

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Re: Mafia 73: Phoenix Wright: Turnabout Mafia: Endgame thread.
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2017, 05:12:19 PM »
By Day 4, the last member Mop it up finally became clear with Stogi even calling her out.
To be fair, that's a move I make as a townie as well... though it's certainly gotten me into trouble before as a townie!