Topic: Accidental Racism

[GoldenPhoenix]

I think everyone is making good points as to how people can understand the context and learn to be less offended by it.

My beef, as James C. mentions in his blog post, is that it isn't that hard to change your habits when it comes to typing it. I'm pretty appalled that some just can't be bothered to do something so insanely simple.

I hope you are talking about others besides those here, because I don't do believe anyone here has said they use it. My point is that for those that do use it as a lazy way of writing Japanese shouldn't be taken offense of. In a way since I'm coming at this from a female perspective, I view it in a similar way to those that use masculine terms like "fireman", "policeman", etc. I don't like the terms that much because of their gender specific connotations but I'm not offended by them because I know most don't mean any harm.

[Pale]

Well I guess I may be misunderstanding some people's stance then, but I was getting the impression that people were basically saying "It's dumb for them to be offended so why should I change the way I type it."

[GoldenPhoenix]

Well I guess I may be misunderstanding some people's stance then, but I was getting the impression that people were basically saying "It's dumb for them to be offended so why should I change the way I type it."

You can peruse the board all you want and I can guarantee I have NEVER used the term. I've maybe used it once or twice total EVER and that was when I put a period after it to show it was an abbreviation and that was because I was typing on something uncomfortable. I've seen A LOT of people use it at gamefaqs and no seems to really complain about it because of the context. So basically what I am saying there is a time to be offended and a time to not be offended, you may not like something but it doesn't mean you have to get offended by it.

It is one of those things that I don't see as a huge deal to go on a mass correcting spree, just like some various gender biased terms. I'll keep from doing it but I'm not going to badger people who are lazy and shorten Japanese.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

JPN, PEOPLE, THAT'S ALL YOU NEED.

[GoldenPhoenix]

JPN, PEOPLE, THAT'S ALL YOU NEED.

Isn't that an abbreviation for Japan? It just doesn't sound right if used in the context of the people.

[UltimatePartyBear]

Let's show our love of Jpse games without hating on the people of Jpn!

This is the main part I'm bothered by.  Correcting ignorance is all fine and good, but ignorance isn't hate.  If you had said, "Let's show our love of Jpse games without offending the people of Jpn!" it wouldn't have offended me so much. 

I see that presumption of bigotry in so much PC preaching that it's gotten beyond old.

[Pale]

I wasn't speaking specifically to you GP.

My best experience with this issue is when I play Final Fantasy XI. For those that don't know, it has a healthy mix of both Japanese people and Americans (as well as other regions obviously).  There is an auto-translate feature in the game so that you can communicate (at least about game elements) with people that don't speak your language.

When in a party, there is often a lot of slang used, and this can cause some frustration for people when they don't realize another member doesn't speak english.

I have witnessed the following events (more or less) on multiple occasions.   (Curly braces represent auto-translated terms)

English Speaker A: Heal me... HEAL ME... I'M POISONED! COME ON YOU ARE THE WHITE MAGE!

Japanese Speaker: (Doesn't heal them.)

English Speaker B: He's Jap man, talk like this...

English Speaker B: {{White Mage}} -> {{Thief}} {{Please Help!}}

Japanese Speaker Leaves the Party and quits.


Party is confused as to why their White Mage just bailed on the party.  As you can see from that conversation, the second english speaker was genuinely trying to help the situation and meant no offense.

But, if you read that conversation knowing that "Jap" can be seen as a racial slur, the entire thing can be viewed as saying the Japanese White mage sucks solely because he is Japanese.

This is why you have to be careful when it is typed text. With absolutely no inflection, true meaning is difficult to arrive at.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Fair points Pale. I think that pretty much ends my involvement with the thread, both sides seem to have fair points and I doubt we'll be able to get much more then a circular argument now!

[King of Twitch]

Solution: just assume everyone is Asian and avoid saying anything offensive

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

JPN, PEOPLE, THAT'S ALL YOU NEED.

Isn't that an abbreviation for Japan? It just doesn't sound right if used in the context of the people.

It works anyway.  In the internweb scope, we're dealing with text, not sounds, so our brains will fill in the blanks easily, which is a better approach than tolerating someone's laziness to cut things short with "Jap."  An additional benefit, J P and N are easier to type with one hand.

[Pale]

Solution: just assume everyone is Asian and avoid saying anything offensive

Better solution. Don't try and make black and white rules for a gray world. Balance sacrifice with benefits and then make the best decision for every instance.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Hey Kashogi, with a name like that U MUST B ASIAN.

[Stogi]

I'm more like Wu-Tang. I have a fondness for samurai swords and shaolin shadow boxing.


I came to bring the pain, hardcore to the brain, let's go inside my astral plane

[ThePerm]

I haven't read the entire 3 pages of comments, but from my knowledge its only derogatory in the U.S , Its not derogatory in the UK or Australia, and I'm not sure if it is or not in Canada. Either way i use jp, or j, or jpn, and maybe np(nippon)

I will continue to use midget and retard because these were once technical terms before they joined the "euphemism treadmill" of words   
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemism

the only thing that ever gets my goat is when my friend purposely insults my left handedness and says "sinner, use your right hand as God intended", but be honest its sort of funny and its not a big deal.

And Kashogi..every time i read your name i read Kashogi E Stogi(as in spanish "y" for "and").  What does the Y. stand for?

[OptimusP]

And to compare the French Revolution, Napoleonic Wars, and American War of Independence to WWII in terms of cultural relevance is absurd.  We're still chasing war criminals from WWII for crying out loud...the effects are still being felt.  Culturally, all of those other wars now have negligible impact besides their effect on laws, which we aren't even talking about in this discussion.  It's not like people are using slang terms against an ethnic group that were used during the Napoleonic Wars.  Not unless you have a time machine.

It's not absurd in the argument that Jap is still a negative word because of the relevance of the cultural significance of WWII to this day. I countered this by using all those 19th century events because the cultural significance they still have (even laws have cultural significnace because they inderectly determine social norms and cultural behavior). The French Revolution opened the floodgates of democracy in the whole of Europe and later the world...that is less of a cultural significance today then chasing after WWII-criminals? France as a country is so drenched in the values of the French Revolution in such a way that if you mention that Europe is based on christian values to a french person, they will punch you in the face (this is not a attempt to make the discussion religious or political, just an example of the major cultural significiance of the French Revolution to this day).

It's just to show that these negative slurs are constructs to fullfill a certain function for the ones using it. When that function goes away, in the case of Jap, it just becomes a handy abbreviation with no negative meaning whatsoever. Despite so-called significance of WWII to this day (using the chasing of war-criminals and the banning of swastika's in germany is kind of superficial, you should have said the enormous guilt feeling that germans still have today towards WWII). I can imagine that Japanese in Japan don't really care, but that migrant Japanese do (the best patriots of a country don't live in it) as a kind of nationalist reflex.

[Dasmos]

And Kashogi..every time i read your name i read Kashogi E Stogi(as in spanish "y" for "and").  What does the Y. stand for?

Yousif.

[walkingdead]

I think everyone is making good points as to how people can understand the context and learn to be less offended by it.

My beef, as James C. mentions in his blog post, is that it isn't that hard to change your habits when it comes to typing it. I'm pretty appalled that some just can't be bothered to do something so insanely simple.

and you know what would be even easier?  not being offended by every freekin word you see or hear.

[Pale]

At what point would it become worthwhile for you to make the change? If your co-worker was offended by it? What about your good friend? Your best friend? Your girlfriend?

[Stogi]

That's interesting.

I use to use the word "gay" to describe things that were really lame. It wasn't until I had a lesbian friend that got on my back about it did I actually stop using the word in that context.

[walkingdead]

At what point would it become worthwhile for you to make the change? If your co-worker was offended by it? What about your good friend? Your best friend? Your girlfriend?

i think the better question is at what point would  it become worthwhile for the offended party to get over it.  racism exists for 2 reasons.  the first is people are racist... and the second is people get offended by words.  when you take the power away from the racist they have nothing on you... but when you give the power to the racists than they have every thing on you.

i grew up a white fat kid in detroit.  i was the minority, i got crap handed to me all the time.. and it bothered me when i was 12.  im 30 now and i understand that when i get called fat ass or cracker/honkey/ whatever that there trying to gain power on me.  i wont let them.  and i am doing so much better for it now cause i took the power away... i don't let it bother me.

if the average person (in a minority group) would just look at how stupid a slur is and ask themselves why it bothers them they would probably laugh at themselves for being so stupid for years.


let me pose this question for the board... how many people here are a minority... and i don't mean not white... i just mean the only women in an office or the only white kid on  your block or the only asian (or if you would rather ntsc-j) guy in school. and how do these words affect you.  we have had a lot of discussion from what would seem the "majority" but nothing from the minority.

[Pale]

So because you were harassed to the point of being unhappy as a child and you learned to ignore it and achieved happiness as an adult, you think everyone else should get harassed until they learn to deal with it like you did?

I'm just trying to get on the same page here.  And I'd also still really like an answer to my last question for you.


I'm your standard white guy that grew up in a combination of the country and suburbs.  That said, I have extremely curly hair and for that and many other reasons I used to take a significant amount of crap as a kid.

I, like you say you did, learned to let that stuff roll off my back, and for the most part I'm extremely happy now.

That said, if I saw a doofy white kid with seriously curly hair getting harassed by a bunch of morons, I wouldn't join in to try and teach him a lesson on how to ignore that stuff.

[walkingdead]

well what your advocating is not at all what i was trying to get to.  and as for when would it be worthwhile... well to put it simply it wouldn't.

now dont get me wrong im not saying that i would do stuff like that at work just to piss people off.  and im not saying that we should just poke the wounded bear so to speak just to get them to get over it.  im just saying i know there is no malicious intent behind what i say other than humor so im not going to change what i do.

and when you give power to the racist they have power...

[Pale]

Well my point of view is that taking some stance on principle that can result in the stress of another is fairly selfish, especially when such stance revolves around such a trivial amount of effort.

[walkingdead]

yea but at the same time now i have to look over my shoulder every time i speak and hope that i don't say something inadvertently racist to someone who may or may not be within earshot of me and my conversation. 

so either way the selfishness is going to be on display.

if you recall the original intent of this blog was to show that some people were being racist and didn't even know it... and my original comment was that unless you are trying to be racist your not.


if i walk down the street saying *** *** *** *** *** over and over again thats a dick move and not what im talking about.  that has the intent to hurt.  but the true selfishness comes when someone is trying to change the way you think and act so they are more comfortable.... what about me why don't i get to be comfortable... why do i have to worry about the words i say.


some of the most racist things i have ever heard came from the mouths of people who claim to be working for the minority's. 

[Pale]

But you are thinking on a "life rule" scale for something that is infinitely simpler. That's my point.  Typing Jap is no easier than typing Jpn. Heck, you could move to Jp and even save time!

Plus, your point is that it isn't racist if there is no intent. While that may be true, intent is very hard to gauge when using written word, which again, brings us back to the entire source of this thread.