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Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: NWR_pap64 on December 27, 2006, 05:37:43 AM

Title: Sp apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: NWR_pap64 on December 27, 2006, 05:37:43 AM: Famitsu just polled people about the recent news of DQ IX going to the DS. Despite the great joy the news brought to people, apparently some Japanese fans are not happy with the announcement...

Here are the poll questions and results according to Famitsu:
Does Dragon Quest IX coming to the DS make you happy?

40.3% - Yes
46% - No
5.2% - Neither
8.5% - Not sure

Do you like the idea of the series changing to action-based battles?

6.8% - Neither yes or no
19.9% - Not sure
19.4% - Yes
53.9% - No

(Question asked to retailers) Does Dragon Quest IX coming to DS make you happy?

47.5% - Yes
22.5% - Neither yes or no
10% - Not sure
20% - No

(Question asked to retailers) Do you like the idea of the series changing to action-based battles?

15% - Yes
32.4% - Not sure
12.5% - Neither yes or no
40% - No

Keep in mind that this was done by Famitsu, and we all know how they gained their infamy, and that this poll does NOT reflect the overall thinking of the Japanese public.

That and the game will sell a gajillion copies on the first hour and Japane WILL never be heard from again...
Title: RE: Sp apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 27, 2006, 07:11:57 AM: Yeah, they suck. Too bad Capcom's making a decent buck off of teasing the deprived PSP audience. I hope they go under soon as a result.
Title: RE: Sp apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Requiem on December 27, 2006, 07:47:30 AM: No matter what they may "say", they isn't a chance in hell that this game will NOT sell under 3 mil. in Japan alone.
Title: RE:Sp apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Louieturkey on December 27, 2006, 08:40:55 AM: Quote
Originally posted by: Requiem
No matter what they may "say", they isn't a chance in hell that this game will NOT sell under 3 mil. in Japan alone.

I think you could be wrong. They are dramatically changing the gameplay of this game which has been the staple of the series. The fighting is no long going to be turn based and that is something the Japanese love about this series. It'll definitely sell 2 million in Japan but I could see it falling short of 3 million.
Title: RE: Sp apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Requiem on December 27, 2006, 08:58:00 AM: All I have to say is people bought that DQ sword peripheral game....they'll definitely buy this.
Title: RE: Sp apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: nitsu niflheim on December 27, 2006, 09:12:35 AM: they'll pass up a Dragon Quest main game as soon as they give up living and breathing.
Title: RE: Sp apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Athrun Zala on December 27, 2006, 10:04:01 AM: it's just a poll.... probably they did it to about 2000 people.... and it's Dragon Quest, even if it were some horse poo in a box with DQ written over it they would sell a million....
Title: RE: Sp apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: jasonditz on December 27, 2006, 12:19:58 PM: I'm not happy doesn't mean "I won't buy it".

I'm not thrilled with the move to real time battles, but I think they did make the right choice on platform. Not only the "right choice", the only choice. The PS3 has nearly zero install base... not an ideal fit for a mass market game unless Sony is willing to throw a bunch of money at them. The Wii is way too new and different to gamble on for something like this.

The DS is right now what the PS2 was when they were making DQ8. And they're probably looking at the following:

1. How many of our potential customers already have this system
2. How easy would it be for potential customers who don't have the system to get it
3. How much would it cost a loyal customer to buy the system and the game.

The DS wins all of these by a wide margin at the moment.
Title: RE: Sp apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Mario on December 27, 2006, 01:14:21 PM: It's bloody Famitsu, they probably have MGS4 as the peoples most wanted game. The magazine is geared HUGELY towards the Sony crowd, and is out of touch with the new market.
Title: RE: Sp apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Kairon on December 27, 2006, 01:59:10 PM: Well, personally, I'm still iffy on the whole real time thing because SE's real time endeavors as of late have been HORRIBLE!!!

/mana tears

I'll still buy it though.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Title: RE:Sp apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: ViewtifulJoe on December 27, 2006, 05:26:22 PM: I think the game looks great so they should stop whining and go back to watching there godzilla movies
Title: RE:Sp apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Hocotate on December 27, 2006, 06:20:35 PM: It's on DS, this will be the best selling DQ game in the history of forever and SE won't look back (at Sony).
Title: RE: Sp apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Ian Sane on December 28, 2006, 05:31:23 AM: Honestly if I found out my favourite game series was having a core feature of its basic gameplay changed and was moving from consoles to portables I'd be pretty upset about it too. Imagine Zelda became turn based. Not as a spinoff but the "real" Zelda as a turn based game. That would be pretty upsetting to hear and that's kind of what's happening here.

Though I doubt it'll affect sales. I didn't like Wind Waker's art style. Still don't. In fact Twilight Princess just re-enforces my opinion. But I still bought it because it was still a great game. I consider it the weakest 3D Zelda but in the end it's not because of the graphics but other factors that are unrelated and could have been a problem in any Zelda game. So the fans will still buy this. Hell they would probably buy crap though I'd never want them to.
Title: RE: Sp apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Requiem on December 28, 2006, 05:53:08 AM: Zelda become turn-based and DQ becoming real-time are two completely different things. If Zelda was turned based, it would cease to be an adventure game. However, if DQ becomes real-time, it can still be an RPG. The genre isn't changing, just the way you play.

Also, if you need an example of a game changing for the better, then look at Metriod Prime. It changed the way you played, but retianed everything we loved about metriod. I remember all the cynical debates before it debuted, but afterwards, everyone realized that it was quite possibly the best GC game ever.

I believe Square knows what it's doing. This is it's biggest franchise (FF be damned), and there not going to ruin it just to add some "gimm!cky" controls...
Title: RE: Sp apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Ceric on December 28, 2006, 06:07:33 AM: Sorry but I'm going to say this but the more I hear about this the more I think. "Dragon Quest: Crystal Chronicals"
Title: RE: Sp apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Ian Sane on December 28, 2006, 07:13:45 AM: "Also, if you need an example of a game changing for the better, then look at Metriod Prime. It changed the way you played, but retianed everything we loved about metriod. I remember all the cynical debates before it debuted, but afterwards, everyone realized that it was quite possibly the best GC game ever."

To me Metroid Prime is just Metroid in 3D. It's as seemless of a change as Zelda going 3D. Turning DQ real-time to me is like Metroid Prime Hunters. I'm not even a fan of DQ but the idea just in theory sounds too much like they're messing with a good thing. A good part of the appeal of Dragon Quest has been that it hasn't changed much. RPGs are everywhere and they're always tinkering with new battle systems. DQ was for when you wanted to go with something familar. Now this is all what I hear is the appeal of DQ. I'm not personally familiar enough with it to know firsthand.

With big changes there is always the risk of stuff being f*cked up so I can see why Famitsu's readers aren't happy.
Title: RE:Sp apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Kairon on December 28, 2006, 07:29:25 AM: Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric
Sorry but I'm going to say this but the more I hear about this the more I think. "Dragon Quest: Crystal Chronicals"

QFA.

I also think Children of Mana.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Title: RE:Sp apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Strell on December 28, 2006, 07:42:00 AM: I seem to recall they were unhappy with FF XII as well.

Ho ho ho.
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: couchmonkey on December 28, 2006, 08:27:01 AM: I have to say I'm a little worried about the gameplay myself, as someone else said, Square Enix's track record on real-time gameplay isn't the best. I am really happy that you'll be able to see monsters on the overworld though, and I do think more action is generally a good idea for RPGs.

The move to DS makes complete sense. I can see why it bothers people (it even bothers me a little) but it's not going to stop them from buying it. I think it's just expectations.
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: mantidor on December 28, 2006, 09:53:21 AM: Quote
Originally posted by: Strell
I seem to recall they were unhappy with FF XII as well.

Ho ho ho.

what? I remember one of these famitsu polls among its readers saying this was the best game of all time, with only one Zelda game in the top ten and super mario bros like in the 20th place or something. the top ten consisted of a bunch of DQ and FF sequels, further proving japanese's poor taste.

The difference to change a turn based game into a real time game than doing the opposite is that the former is a change for the better :P, and wasn't DQ8 the first one to do that anyway? people seemed to have got over it from the sales of the game.
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Kairon on December 28, 2006, 10:02:03 AM: Mantidor, have you played Crystal Chronicles or Children of Mana?

We're not questioning the design choice, we're questioning Square's track record with this design.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Mario on December 28, 2006, 01:12:52 PM: Quote
Originally posted by: mantidor
Quote
Originally posted by: Strell
I seem to recall they were unhappy with FF XII as well.

Ho ho ho.

what? I remember one of these famitsu polls among its readers saying this was the best game of all time, with only one Zelda game in the top ten and super mario bros like in the 20th place or something. the top ten consisted of a bunch of DQ and FF sequels, further proving japanese's poor taste.

The difference to change a turn based game into a real time game than doing the opposite is that the former is a change for the better :P, and wasn't DQ8 the first one to do that anyway? people seemed to have got over it from the sales of the game.

That says it all about the Famitsu audience right there.
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Requiem on December 28, 2006, 01:43:31 PM: Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Also, if you need an example of a game changing for the better, then look at Metriod Prime. It changed the way you played, but retianed everything we loved about metriod. I remember all the cynical debates before it debuted, but afterwards, everyone realized that it was quite possibly the best GC game ever."

To me Metroid Prime is just Metroid in 3D. It's as seemless of a change as Zelda going 3D. Turning DQ real-time to me is like Metroid Prime Hunters. I'm not even a fan of DQ but the idea just in theory sounds too much like they're messing with a good thing. A good part of the appeal of Dragon Quest has been that it hasn't changed much. RPGs are everywhere and they're always tinkering with new battle systems. DQ was for when you wanted to go with something familar. Now this is all what I hear is the appeal of DQ. I'm not personally familiar enough with it to know firsthand.

With big changes there is always the risk of stuff being f*cked up so I can see why Famitsu's readers aren't happy.

As valid as your points may seem, you are forgetting something --- the DS, in it's entirety, is about change. I, for one, would be pissed if they kept everything the same.
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Requiem on December 28, 2006, 01:44:50 PM: Quote
Originally posted by: Requiem
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Also, if you need an example of a game changing for the better, then look at Metriod Prime. It changed the way you played, but retianed everything we loved about metriod. I remember all the cynical debates before it debuted, but afterwards, everyone realized that it was quite possibly the best GC game ever."

To me Metroid Prime is just Metroid in 3D. It's as seemless of a change as Zelda going 3D. Turning DQ real-time to me is like Metroid Prime Hunters. I'm not even a fan of DQ but the idea just in theory sounds too much like they're messing with a good thing. A good part of the appeal of Dragon Quest has been that it hasn't changed much. RPGs are everywhere and they're always tinkering with new battle systems. DQ was for when you wanted to go with something familar. Now this is all what I hear is the appeal of DQ. I'm not personally familiar enough with it to know firsthand.

With big changes there is always the risk of stuff being f*cked up so I can see why Famitsu's readers aren't happy.

As valid as your points may seem, you are forgetting something --- the DS, in it's entirety, is about innovation. I, for one, would be pissed if they didn't try and innovate and kept everything the same.
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Hocotate on December 28, 2006, 04:21:24 PM: Quote
Originally posted by: mantidor
further proving japanese's poor taste.

Famitsu does not represent the entirety of Japan. Someone said it earlier, these folks represent the hardcore stuck in Sony's last gen mentality. Look at the top 10 sales and try to tell me the Japanese have poor taste in games... compare them to the top games in the US and we can lol at that list (edit- we lol at the US list lol).
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Infernal Monkey on December 28, 2006, 08:09:01 PM: This is no surprise. The series has shifted to action based fighting. The Japanese hate games that make them do stuff. Naturally they're not happy! Back to 40 /40 Nintendogs!
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: 18 Days on December 28, 2006, 09:37:49 PM: Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric
Sorry but I'm going to say this but the more I hear about this the more I think. "Dragon Quest: Crystal Chronicals"

QFA.

I also think Children of Mana.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Kairon. The Mana games have always sucked. They arn't relevent to this debate.
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Strell on December 29, 2006, 01:25:44 AM: Quote
Originally posted by: mantidor
Quote
Originally posted by: Strell
I seem to recall they were unhappy with FF XII as well.

Ho ho ho.

what? I remember one of these famitsu polls among its readers saying this was the best game of all time, with only one Zelda game in the top ten and super mario bros like in the 20th place or something. the top ten consisted of a bunch of DQ and FF sequels, further proving japanese's poor taste.

The difference to change a turn based game into a real time game than doing the opposite is that the former is a change for the better :P, and wasn't DQ8 the first one to do that anyway? people seemed to have got over it from the sales of the game.

You're mixing up what I said with something else.

Prior to FF12 coming out, they did the same sort of polling, and lots of people said they were unhappy with the game being changed over to the gambit system. There was also a lot of anger over how difficult the game supposedly is.

After the game came out, all of that negativity vanished, because I guess the game is good (I haven't played it).

Point being is that what happened before and what happened after the game was released were completely opposite of one another.

That is what I'm making light of.
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Smash_Brother on December 29, 2006, 05:58:49 AM: Quote
Originally posted by: Strell Prior to FF12 coming out, they did the same sort of polling, and lots of people said they were unhappy with the game being changed over to the gambit system. There was also a lot of anger over how difficult the game supposedly is.

If someone said, in my presence, "That RPG is really hard." I'd punch him/her to the ground.

RPGs AREN'T hard. They're time consuming. Any game where you can beat the last boss with your stats and a random number generator is not a difficult game.

Well, difficult to stay awake, maybe...
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: NWR_pap64 on December 29, 2006, 06:33:07 AM: Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Quote
Originally posted by: Strell Prior to FF12 coming out, they did the same sort of polling, and lots of people said they were unhappy with the game being changed over to the gambit system. There was also a lot of anger over how difficult the game supposedly is.

If someone said, in my presence, "That RPG is really hard." I'd punch him/her to the ground.

RPGs AREN'T hard. They're time consuming. Any game where you can beat the last boss with your stats and a random number generator is not a difficult game.

Well, difficult to stay awake, maybe...

I'm sorry but RPGs CAN be hard if you are not prepared or don't know what you are doing.

It's true that you can beat the monsters by leveling up, but that process can be long, arduous and hard for some. And pray that the developer doesn't put a boss that constantly surprises you with unexpected attacks.

That's another thing, knowing how and when to attack, how to use your turns, conserve your items and use your super attacks is also vital to the challenge.

So I think its unfair to bash those that think a certain RPG is hard because they couldn't figure out or are having trouble leveling up.
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Smash_Brother on December 29, 2006, 07:05:55 AM: See, that's the difference between "reflex" and "strategy", and when Japanese gamers shy away from reflex, it worries me because Japanese devs drive the gaming industry and if they all shy away from real-time games, I think it will be insanely detrimental to gaming.

DQ9 being real-time is a blessing, as far as I'm concerned, as it can involve levels and such, sure, but skilled players can overcome greater obstacles with skill, reflex and timing without needing to rely purely upon stats to succeed.
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Ceric on December 29, 2006, 07:53:40 AM: I think the point is that the last gen they all shied away from Strategy. Real-time to me in an RPG equals "I press button lots ha-guk." If I want to play and Action Adventure game then I play one, even though besides Zelda that Genre is going down as well.

As I stated before I like my RPG's to involve some strategy to get things done. I also like mini-games in the combat as well, think any RPG that has Mario in it, to keep it fresh and give me something to improve reflex wise. I'll stop there.
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Arbok on December 29, 2006, 08:54:39 AM: Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
If someone said, in my presence, "That RPG is really hard." I'd punch him/her to the ground.

RPGs AREN'T hard. They're time consuming.

Fire Emblem begs to differ...
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Smash_Brother on December 29, 2006, 09:05:43 AM: Quote
Originally posted by: Arbok Fire Emblem begs to differ...

Fire Emblem begs me not to punch it to the ground!

But seriously, FE is a game of careful planning and observation, but it's still a turn-based game which doesn't involve reflex or timing.

While I'm not saying these games aren't worthwhile games, I am saying that I don't like it when Japan shies away from the genre.
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Artimus on December 29, 2006, 09:54:31 AM: Fire Emblem is a strategy RPG. Goodness. Strategy games ARE hard because they require good strategy. Regular RPGs require nothing but patience.
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Ian Sane on December 29, 2006, 10:18:13 AM: I think an RPG can be hard if the game is designed in such a way that you can be totally screwed. I've given up on a few RPGs because I saved in some area where it won't let me leave unless I beat some boss, but I lack the experience and/or items required to beat him. In my mind that's poor game design but it would still qualify as hard.

I disagree that a game requires skill or reflexes to be challenging. I see nothing wrong with a game getting it's challenge from puzzles, strategy or problem solving. Now I agree not every game should be like that.

RPGs with real time battles usually are total horsesh!t because they just combine that worst aspects of both systems. While slow a turn-based system allows one to have more time to think about their next move and since often RPGs require you to go through menus it allows you to do that at your own pace as well. Real-time is obviously quicker and provides more control and it feels more like you're really doing something but because of the timing nature of it you're limited in the complexity of what you can do. Real-time RPGs usually are just a test on how fast you can navigate through menus with the clock against you. It would be like a Zelda game where when you stopped to look at your map the enemies continued to attack you. Screw that. That's not fun, that's crap. At that point the challenge of the game comes from fighting its design and that's a sign of a lousy game.
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on December 29, 2006, 10:21:28 AM: What constitutes a "regular" RPG?
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Requiem on December 29, 2006, 11:57:35 AM: Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I think an RPG can be hard if the game is designed in such a way that you can be totally screwed. I've given up on a few RPGs because I saved in some area where it won't let me leave unless I beat some boss, but I lack the experience and/or items required to beat him. In my mind that's poor game design but it would still qualify as hard.

I disagree that a game requires skill or reflexes to be challenging. I see nothing wrong with a game getting it's challenge from puzzles, strategy or problem solving. Now I agree not every game should be like that.

RPGs with real time battles usually are total horsesh!t because they just combine that worst aspects of both systems. While slow a turn-based system allows one to have more time to think about their next move and since often RPGs require you to go through menus it allows you to do that at your own pace as well. Real-time is obviously quicker and provides more control and it feels more like you're really doing something but because of the timing nature of it you're limited in the complexity of what you can do. Real-time RPGs usually are just a test on how fast you can navigate through menus with the clock against you. It would be like a Zelda game where when you stopped to look at your map the enemies continued to attack you. Screw that. That's not fun, that's crap. At that point the challenge of the game comes from fighting its design and that's a sign of a lousy game.

I am Requiem, and I approve this message.

Then again, who's to say you can't have both Ian? If any game system could blend them(other than the Wii), then it's the DS.
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Artimus on December 29, 2006, 12:57:23 PM: Quote
Originally posted by: Sir_Stabbalot
What constitutes a "regular" RPG?

Level-based characters and command combat. A strategy RPG is like Fire Emblem and Tactics where the combat is done through character placement as well as attack. Action-RPGs have the character leveling and basic combat types (attack, magic, item, etc.) but include a real time element. The Mario games would be half regular and half action (more the former, though). Some idiots think Zelda is an RPG, but it is absolutely not. It totally lacks the ability to customize your character which is an ABSOLUTE necessity (considering that's where the original tabletops began). The character customization is why a game like Diablo is an RPG despite having nearly full-action combat. Same with MMORPGs.
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: jasonditz on December 30, 2006, 04:08:15 AM: I'd have been a lot more worried about the move to real time if Namco hadn't been doing such a splendid job with real time battles in RPGs for the past decade plus.

It's not like Enix has no experience with it either. Star Ocean for the PS2 was real time and that's a damn fine game. with a bit of refinement I'm sure it can work.

That said, I do still tend to prefer turn based RPGs because I think they age better. Maybe I'd be more convinced of that fact though if I hadn't been playing Tales of Phantasia on the GBA for the past 3 weeks though
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: vudu on April 25, 2007, 10:13:10 AM: BUMP FOR GREAT JUSTICE!

It seems Square-Enix heard the cries of millions of fans and have changed the battle system of Dragon Quest IX back to turn-based.
Quote
It was previously thought that battles would be switching from the traditional turn-based ones to real-time encounters, but according to Jeux-France, that's not the case.
Quote
While the game was originally an action RPG, Square-Enix has now gone with a turn-based style closely resembling Dragon Quest VIII. The online play is the same way, but it allows you to plan attacks with the other players in your party, or you can make your own move decisions.
Link & Link.

EDIT: You can also change characters' facial expressions to accurately portray the transition from happy-go-lucky child living in a small village to broody hero destined to save the world.
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Adrock on April 25, 2007, 10:51:43 AM: Whatever, as long as it sells.

I'm not really a DQ fan. I just like the idea of Nintendo serving the competition.
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Kairon on April 25, 2007, 11:19:18 AM: Oh! That's nice to hear. I much prefer turn-based since real-time brings back lukewarm memories of FF:CC on the GC.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: that Baby guy on April 25, 2007, 11:37:44 AM: I was rather excited about the real-time fights. I'm still excited about the game in general, I'll be able to play an RPG online with a friend or two, but after playing through Tales of Symphonia with another person the entire time, I have to say that real-time co-op fights can be pretty fun. I just hope that this works out alright. Online co-op turn-based battles? I just don't see much of a difference between letting someone else choose the best move or choosing the best move youself.

Did anyone else try out Final Fantasy III (US) on the SNES, and use the two player mode? It's boring. It just seems like there isn't a difference. I get the same vibe from this now. I just hope seeing a video changes that vibe.
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Louieturkey on April 25, 2007, 12:05:37 PM: Quote
Originally posted by: thatguy
Did anyone else try out Final Fantasy III (US) on the SNES, and use the two player mode? It's boring. It just seems like there isn't a difference. I get the same vibe from this now. I just hope seeing a video changes that vibe.

I didn't even know there was a two player mode on the SNES FFIII. What does it entail?
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Kairon on April 25, 2007, 12:07:31 PM: NOTHING. LOOK AWAY. LOOK AWAAAAAAAY.

Yeah, the FF3 2-player mode was... a waste of space.

But the sense I'm getting from all I've heard about DQIX is mroe Final Fantasy XI MMO than FF3 two-inputs.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: couchmonkey on April 25, 2007, 12:10:37 PM: I hope this will turn out well, but I agree with thatguy...turn-based fighting just doesn't sound like a recipe for an exciting online game. Maybe Square Enix will have to create a spin-off to try out the real-time concept.

At the same time, I'm happy, because I never really cared about the online component and it seems like turn-based RPGs are a dying breed.
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: that Baby guy on April 25, 2007, 12:39:49 PM: The FF3(US) two player mode basically switched control of characters of your choosing to the second controller, but only during battle mode. There's nothing special about it. YOu activate it through the config menu.

Anyways, I don't see too much difference between this and that.
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: NWR_pap64 on April 25, 2007, 12:48:11 PM: Aw crap...I was so looking forward to playing the new engine.

Stupid fanboys.

They should definitely make a DQ spin off game with a real time engine. I would've loved to have seen how they handled real time battles.

Oh well, at least it will help sell more DSs.
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 25, 2007, 12:51:46 PM: There goes my sale.

Break the mold and try again, Square.
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Aretak on April 25, 2007, 12:52:01 PM: I'm thrilled that it doesn't have real-time combat. Can't stand it myself. Turn-based combat allows for a lot more strategy during battle.
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Adrock on April 25, 2007, 01:18:36 PM: Clearly, this decision was made specifically for the Japanese market. A new DQ launch is like a holiday there.

I kind of prefer it this way. People were skeptical that DQIX was a DS game. If DQIX does not perform as well as a DQ is expected to, that sucks in every way for Nintendo. Sticking with an old format sucks for those of us that like our games with innovation but ensures a higher rate of sales. Ultimately, this will lead to even more support for Nintendo platforms. So it's not win-win. It's more like lose-kind-of-then-win-a-whole-lot-later. I'll deal, especially if it nets me some kick-ass exclusives later.
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Smoke39 on April 25, 2007, 02:12:05 PM: Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Oh! That's nice to hear. I much prefer turn-based since real-time brings back lukewarm memories of FF:CC on the GC.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Realtime combat makes me think of Zelda or Soul Blazer more than CC.
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: NWR_pap64 on April 25, 2007, 03:16:38 PM: I wouldn't mind the news if a playable version was made and people didn't like it, because then there would've been proof that the fans didn't like the new engine and that it doesn't work for the DQ series.

This is basically Square backing out the minute some fans cried foul. In other words, they were being "chicken sh*t".

I know that the DQ series is a highly celebrated series and Square wants it to sell greatly on the DS, but they canceled the idea without even giving it a proper chance.

I really hope that the DQ real time engine makes it to at least a spin off game.
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: that Baby guy on April 25, 2007, 05:17:10 PM: I agree, pap. I always thought the mode would last until there was at least a public play-test.
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: NWR_pap64 on April 25, 2007, 06:33:25 PM: The other thing that bugs me about this is that Square turning DQ into a real time RPG is the LEAST of the drastic decisions seen in the industry.

For example, Nintendo turning Zelda into a cartoon, naming the Revolution "The Wii" and turning the Metroid franchise into a FPS and giving it to an unknown studio.

These were decisions that were highly criticized by the fans and the media. They were considered too stupid, yet Nintendo stood by them and marched, despite the harsh reception.

So Square dropping out of an idea BEFORE it is tested out is annoying.
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: that Baby guy on April 25, 2007, 06:54:39 PM: But then, you also have to consider Dragon Quest Swords and Dragon Quest Monsters. It seems like they're willing to use the game's name for new things, but when they do it to the main series, they do get flack for it. Why don't we try to consider it from their perspective?

Take Star Wars. When the movies came it, it was almost like a holiday, with most fans - fans on any level, I might add - take the day or days off prior to and on the event, so they can be the firsts to see the movie. Now imagine that George Lucas decided that instead of offering Episode 3 in the traditional form of film, he decided to use the more modern, text-to-decide-the-outcome American Idol style to direct the movie. Some fans would be happier, but the majority would think that he is selling out or switching something that doesn't need to happen.

Now, Star Wars lore, along anything that isn't one of the six episodes is up for grabs, and fans are happy just to get more of it. That's probably why people loved the Clone Wars cartoon, and are anticipating the television show that will begin soon.

I think you can see the parallels between Dragon Quest and Star Wars. What you and I want probably isn't too respectful to the majority of Japan, especially since there haven't been so many heavy game play tweaks to the Dragon Quest series when compared to the Final Fantasy series.

Now I do hope that they move the concept to a new DS title, DQ spin-off or not, because I loved the idea. I imagine a good bit of the idea was inspired by FF:CC TRoF, too, so we might get to have some of the experience in that title, as well.
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Louieturkey on April 25, 2007, 07:34:37 PM: Thank goodness they changed it back. I am tired of all these RPGs going with real time or pseudo-real time battle systems. I'm not against the style, I just don't like how every studio seems to be turning their rpgs into action rpgs these days. Using the Shining Force name for an action rpg really upset me. Doing it to something that has never really changed for eight games seems even worse to me. I'm cool with spinoffs doing whatever they want. Leave the main series alone though.
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: nitsu niflheim on April 26, 2007, 02:20:34 AM: I don't care if it's real time or turn based. I just want some Dragon Quest.
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 26, 2007, 03:36:35 AM: Ugh, what's the point of the online multiplayer, then? Turn-based RPG multiplayer sounds hilariously boring...
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: nitsu niflheim on April 26, 2007, 04:13:18 AM: maybe online part will be real time. That would be fun.
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Adrock on April 26, 2007, 04:16:20 AM: Although I agree with many of the points here, I still see where Square-Enix is coming from. Dragon Quest is the company's biggest money maker, bigger even than Final Fantasy. Nothing branded Dragon Quest sells as well as the main series. Square-Enix dropping real time battles before getting too far into development saves them millions.

And it's not like they aren't trying new things. Online play is new and we still have no idea how they're using everything else DS has to offer.
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: vudu on April 26, 2007, 07:52:28 AM: Quote
Originally posted by: Smoke39
Realtime combat makes me think of Zelda or Soul Blazer more than CC.
Someone here's never played Contact.
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Ceric on April 26, 2007, 09:17:03 AM: DQ is turn based and FF is experimentalish.
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: couchmonkey on April 26, 2007, 09:33:31 AM: The way I see it, this was a smart move in the short run, but it may hurt Square Enix in the long run.

I've seen one too many failed attempts at action RPGs and I'm really looking forward to this as a turn-based game. Unless some monumental screw-up happens, this is an instant buy for me. And let's not forget that this series is Japanese, first and foremost: who can say how bad the reaction over there was? In the short run, this will probably be more successful than if they had messed with the formula.

In the long, run, though...it's hard to imagine a good multiplayer turn-based game, and multiplayer/social gaming is seen by many as the future of the industry. See Pokemans, Second Life, Wii, and World of Warcraft. (Edit: also Halo and Super Smash Bros.)
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: mantidor on April 26, 2007, 10:47:05 AM: The little interest I had was killed by this announcement. Another boring turn based rpg... really, they are all the same!
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: ShyGuy on April 26, 2007, 11:19:18 AM: Mantidor, are you getting more cantankerous as time goes on, or is it just me?
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Urkel on April 26, 2007, 02:37:23 PM: Ugh.

This was the first DQ game I was genuinely excited for, but now? Pah!

I think this is bad business-wise because the DQ series has never done all that well outside of Japan, but I believe an action based battle system would've given it a chance to sell elsewhere. I also think SE is being paranoid. The Japanese will buy it no matter what. It's Dragon effing Quest!
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: nitsu niflheim on April 26, 2007, 03:09:57 PM: Dragon Quest has always been an aqcuired taste, one Nintendo gave me when they sent me Dragon Warrior a long time ago!
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Ceric on April 26, 2007, 03:28:34 PM: I think it's funny how much discussion RPGs get. They are old school, then everything that is wrong with modern videogames. Are considered pioneering showcases then archaic remnants. Consoles seem to be measured by their/there/they're amount of RPGs. RPGs seem like an up and coming genre and a dieing one.

Nothing sparks talk like RPGs and RPG elements. Turn Based RPGs have been going away for a while. Some people like them others do not. It doesn't mean they should disappear like Adventure games (like Quest for Glory) did. All the new hip ones have to do cards or action based.

Doesn't seem weird for a Genre that has niches within its niche becomes one of the measuring sticks of a console?
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: IceCold on April 26, 2007, 05:25:02 PM: Quote
Originally posted by: vudu
Quote
Originally posted by: Smoke39
Realtime combat makes me think of Zelda or Soul Blazer more than CC.
Someone here's never played Contact.
Or Tales of Symphonia.
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Kairon on April 27, 2007, 09:11:59 AM: I hated Tales of Symphonia. Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles' gameplay was a dud. Turn-based is STILL in demand.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: that Baby guy on April 27, 2007, 09:21:05 AM: Did you play the games with other people, or was it just you?
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: KDR_11k on April 27, 2007, 09:47:15 AM: Kairon likes Majesco. I rest my case.
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: mantidor on April 27, 2007, 10:32:43 AM: Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
Mantidor, are you getting more cantankerous as time goes on, or is it just me?

I... did not know what that meant

Turn based anything is just so boring, even when it has a deep strategy behind it like in Pokemon, weren't turn based mechanics there to make it easy to emulate a real battle, back in the days of pen and paper games? we are way past that, we can let the computer do all the emulation, all the dice roles and turns. These games are only about churning numbers, at least you used your imagination back then, now is cutscene after cutscene, with annoying battles in between.

NO I'm not that old really
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Kairon on April 27, 2007, 01:04:17 PM: Yes, I played FF:CC with other people. 3-4 of us, after school, with GBAs and GBASPs. I even had a younger brother at my disposal.

Quote
Originally posted by: mantidor
Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
Mantidor, are you getting more cantankerous as time goes on, or is it just me?

I... did not know what that meant

Turn based anything is just so boring, even when it has a deep strategy behind it like in Pokemon, weren't turn based mechanics there to make it easy to emulate a real battle, back in the days of pen and paper games? we are way past that, we can let the computer do all the emulation, all the dice roles and turns. These games are only about churning numbers, at least you used your imagination back then, now is cutscene after cutscene, with annoying battles in between.

NO I'm not that old really

Just because something is old doesn't mean that it doesn't have an audience that wants to be served. One could say that pen and paper RPGs should have gone the way of the dodo by your view, or that tile based strategy RPGs are a waste of time. But there's money to be made, there's an audience, and there's an appeal. And the only time something truly stagnates is when you say it does. I'd like to think that there is still innovation left in the turn-based well... it's just that no one cares to dig deep enough.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Ceric on April 27, 2007, 02:03:16 PM: Quote
Yes, I played FF:CC with other people. 3-4 of us, after school, with GBAs and GBASPs. I even had a younger brother at my disposal.

Lucky I played the whole game alone. Though that experience be a lot better with a very few minor tweaks.
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: that Baby guy on April 27, 2007, 02:31:35 PM: Kairon, I'm just curious, did you ever play Four Swords Adventures with all four players? I never had that luxury. I got up to three, and thought it was great. If you did play it, what did you think of it?
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: mantidor on April 27, 2007, 03:10:59 PM: Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon

Just because something is old doesn't mean that it doesn't have an audience that wants to be served. One could say that pen and paper RPGs should have gone the way of the dodo by your view, or that tile based strategy RPGs are a waste of time. But there's money to be made, there's an audience, and there's an appeal. And the only time something truly stagnates is when you say it does. I'd like to think that there is still innovation left in the turn-based well... it's just that no one cares to dig deep enough.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

hmm... that makes me think that turn based RPGs are like FPS, that became so popular that innovation behind them ended up practically non-existent for fear of alienating the big userbase... interesting, sure there must be some hidden jewels somewhere, but every time I tried some turned based game I've felt terribly dissapointed and bored. I do like Paper Mario a lot, but its mostly because of the humor behind it.
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Kairon on April 27, 2007, 03:31:08 PM: Quote
Originally posted by: thatguy
Kairon, I'm just curious, did you ever play Four Swords Adventures with all four players? I never had that luxury. I got up to three, and thought it was great. If you did play it, what did you think of it?

[cranky]

I don't think I got around to playing Four Swords Adventures on the GC. I played the first GBA one a little bit, but I wasn't wowed by it too much. To begin with, it isn't Zelda! LOL. Nah, but seriously, I have issues with games where they allow people to jerk around and act counter-productively instead of cooperatively to solve stuff. I guess it's just my personal preference, but I prefer pure co-op, not the sort of co-op that encourages players to repeatedly throw each other into holes for 2 hours and hence get nowhere fast.

It's like how a Halo match is always ruined once people want to spend 2 hours trying to show off this "awesome cool" bug that they saw on the net. Wow, we've just spent two hours getting a ghost up on the top invisible edges of the level instead of playing. Wasn't that fun? Likewise with four swords.

[/cranky]

Quote
Originally posted by: mantidor
hmm... that makes me think that turn based RPGs are like FPS, that became so popular that innovation behind them ended up practically non-existent for fear of alienating the big userbase... interesting, sure there must be some hidden jewels somewhere, but every time I tried some turned based game I've felt terribly dissapointed and bored. I do like Paper Mario a lot, but its mostly because of the humor behind it.

Hmm... well if turn-based RPGs were in the same position as FPS games, I don't think I'd be so quick to defend them! LOL.

But... boy do I hope we see some innovation. The ATB system was great! ... about 7 Final Fantasy games ago. Turn-based battles are such a simple abstraction that I would like to think a designer could have lots of fun with them if they really wanted to do something new.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Djunknown on April 27, 2007, 04:01:09 PM: Sounds like people are playing the company as opposed to blaming the fans who suggested to keep it turn based in the first place...

SquareEnix listened to the fans who buy this series religiously as opposed to Westerners who in general look at Dragon Quest as a sideshow while they froth for the next Final Fantasy. Can't say that I blame SquareEnix on this one...

Chalk it up to one of those Japanese Vs Western gamer preferences. It'd be interesting to discuss and single out key differences between the two.
Title: RE:So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Ceric on April 28, 2007, 12:06:51 PM: Quote
Originally posted by: Djunknown
Sounds like people are playing the company as opposed to blaming the fans who suggested to keep it turn based in the first place...

SquareEnix listened to the fans who buy this series religiously as opposed to Westerners who in general look at Dragon Quest as a sideshow while they froth for the next Final Fantasy. Can't say that I blame SquareEnix on this one...

Chalk it up to one of those Japanese Vs Western gamer preferences. It'd be interesting to discuss and single out key differences between the two.

I agree. FF is not nearly as big in Japan as it is in the West by my understanding. Rank wise at least. Though on the flipside Dragon Quest is a day devouring Monster. It literally gets a holiday. While here in the States its that "other" high profile RPG that Square-Enix makes. Yeah I can understand them catering to the Japanese market on this one. If it was FF they probably tell them to get over it.
Title: RE: So apparently, the Japanese "are not happy" with Dragon Quest IX DS
Post by: Louieturkey on April 28, 2007, 04:59:47 PM: Actually, FF sells better in Japan. It usually gets about 2 million for new numbered (meaning just one number) games, whereas it's around 1.3 million in the US.