Author Topic: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)  (Read 49852 times)

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Offline broodwars

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #50 on: November 21, 2011, 01:24:02 PM »
My big problem with the menus is that they are all list-based.  You complain about the game's UI being designed for consoles, yet this isn't a logical way for a console UI to be designed.  It requires way too much scrolling and it's text-based instead of image-based, which would have been much more user-friendly.  Some sort of radial menu or tree-esque layout perhaps?  The "Favorites" system is a joke, a bandaid on an axe wound.  I certainly hope you know exactly what the spells you want to use are named and what they do, because the Favorites doesn't list them.  And while the Favorites will list any marked Shouts at the bottom of the list, it still doesn't tell you what they do when you highlight them.

It's not a bad menu design because it "caters to console gamers" (the game will likely sell best on the consoles, so it only makes sense to design around them).  It's a bad menu design because it's badly designed, where information takes too long to find and there are no sorting options.

After quite a few detours (I'm Level 25 and have killed 6 dragons now, and I have 4 shouts), I'm trying to make my way up to High Hrothgar to meet the Graybeards.  "Trying" is the operative word there, because for the life of me I can't find the path leading up the mountain.  Every path I find stops partway up, and it's getting frustrating.  You'd think a holy path would be better marked.

I've also had some frustrations with the dragons.  I ran into a Blood Dragon near the Eldergreen Sanctuary, which ended up following me to a nearby settlement as I sought a way to get some cover between me and it since it was taking forever to kill.  I managed to kill it, but later when I returned to this settlement to make my way to Iverstead another dragon attacked me in the same place.  And it ate some of the local populace while I was trying to kill it, rewarding me with a nice big "QUEST FAILED" warning.  Great.  You know, when Dueling Dragons at Universal Studios breaks down, the dragons don't EAT the quest-givers!  :cool;
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 01:27:15 PM by broodwars »
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Offline bustin98

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #51 on: November 21, 2011, 01:27:14 PM »
I am level 6 and just spoke with the Greybeards. Are there additional Greybeards to talk to? I haven't gone off quest too much as of yet.

I thought the path was fairly well marked. Avoiding trolls, giants and giant wolves proved the more difficult task with my low levels and weak weapons.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 01:33:29 PM by bustin98 »

Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #52 on: November 21, 2011, 03:19:10 PM »
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My biggest beef with Skyrim so far. The menu system is terrible, and gets worse as you play. I'm starting to think that even the menus in Oblivion were better. It doesn't take much to whip up a proper RPG menu system... they had it almost 100% right in Morrowind. See what catering to consoles gets us? Devolution.


Don't blame consoles; blame Bethesda for being too lazy to optimize the PC version for mouse and keyboard. There's no reason they couldn't have done it both ways. They didn't feel it was necessary to cater to PC elitists like you. That's on them.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 03:20:45 PM by NWR_insanolord »
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Offline Ceric

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #53 on: November 21, 2011, 03:20:53 PM »
lol,
PC Elitist.  I remember a time when I game like this would be made for the PC then ported around using the modding utility in it.  My how times have changed.
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Offline Morari

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #54 on: November 21, 2011, 04:46:17 PM »
They didn't feel it was necessary to cater to PC elitists like you.

There's nothing elitist about being correct. ;)
The real problem here is that they have once again shot for the lowest common denominator and catered too much to console kiddies. You're right, that's on them. Still, no one should really be playing on a console anyway. The uninformed masses that make up the market surely share in the blame.

Though if Broodwars comment is anything to go by, the menus don't work too well on consoles either. At least I'll have a mod in the coming months to outright replace it... just I did in Oblivion. ;)
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #55 on: November 30, 2011, 03:54:30 AM »
Well, if I was angry at Bethesda before for their repeatedly abysmal programming, that was nothing compared to how pissed off I am at them now.
 
 I decided to go back to Skyrim after just getting bored with Skyward Sword's End Game content, and after quite a few hours I was making some good progress.  I killed several dragons; giants; and mammoths, and fulfilled several quests west of that first town.  Then I decided to head north to Winterhold so I could finally obtain some new spells.  It was a harrowing journey that involved killing several more dragons and a very irate snow bear.  But I did it and reached the College at Winterhold.  I start the opening quest and...another dragon attacks.  The dragon attack then proceeds to completely break that first quest, as the person I'm supposed to be following around just walks around saying I can talk to her when she's done showing me around.  But as far as her AI routine is concerned, she's done.  That entire quest line is locked to me, and it turns out my last manual save was 3 hours prior.
 
 This, Bethesda, is why I constantly complain that it's ridiculous how reviewers and the public let you get away with murder and release games with shoddy programming just because they're "big".  I can hear people saying already that "well, you should have saved more often."  **** that.  It's not my job to have to work around Bethesda's constantly terrible bugs, and this is after the latest PS3 patch (which, incidentally, I still see framerate hitches on).  Ugh...3 hours of content and quite a lot of nasty battles won down the drain.  Thanks a lot, Bethesda, for being incredibly bad at what you do.
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Offline Morari

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2011, 10:22:23 AM »
If you played on the PC, you could just bring the console down and reset that one actor. There are benefits to having control and access over a product. ;)
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Offline bustin98

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2011, 10:25:40 AM »
I am on my 3rd character, just because I end up running off to the end of the world and get way in over my head. And I whenever I see an article about quickly leveling up I think 'wouldn't that be a better way to start the game?' One character contracted vampirism and I read online that I had to go to winterhold to the talos shrine, not realizing the exact same thing is in Whiterun. I got to Winterhold without much trouble but then my adventures after that got boring, and somewhere I lost my companion. My second character started off much better. Till I attacked the fort near Solitude where the guy was imprisoned by the imperials... got inside the fort by running, no way do I expect to get the guy out without him or me dying. So... third time the charm?

Offline broodwars

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2011, 10:26:43 AM »
If you played on the PC, you could just bring the console down and reset that one actor. There are benefits to having control and access over a product. ;)

You have the 3 auto-saves on the console version, but by the time I saw that the quest was actually broken (the character was continuing to walk in pattern as if the quest was still working) those 3 were used up and the damage was done.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2011, 11:58:45 AM »
The old leading a monster into a town and people get killed by it routine is nothing new. Oblivion had that problem, and so did Fallout 3 and probably every other open world RPG Bethesda has ever made.

I remember in Fallout 3 those caravan dudes would often end up dead due to Yao Guai or Radscorpions or whatever attacking them randomly out in the wasteland. Many times you would never even know what happened. They would just fail to show up at their designated place at the usual time. Sometimes their pack Brahmin and/or guard would show up though, but with the merchant dead there was no way to do business. I used up stealthboys to reverse pickpocket better weapons and armor onto them to try to improve their survivability, and I think that did help, but they still ended up dead regardless. There's no doubting the wasteland is a dangerous place so them ending up dead is perfectly reasonable... I just hated when it happened.


If you played on the PC, you could just bring the console down and reset that one actor. There are benefits to having control and access over a product. ;)

Yes and no. Being able to correct bugs and glitches is nice, but having this omnipotent power can also ruin a game because people may be tempted to use that power to cheat by giving themselves infinite life or making enemies instantly die or what have you.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 12:05:54 PM by Chozo Ghost »
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Offline Morari

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #60 on: November 30, 2011, 12:00:59 PM »
If you played on the PC, you could just bring the console down and reset that one actor. There are benefits to having control and access over a product. ;)

You have the 3 auto-saves on the console version, but by the time I saw that the quest was actually broken (the character was continuing to walk in pattern as if the quest was still working) those 3 were used up and the damage was done.

I understand the issue. It's but one of the many reasons I've never liked auto-saves. It certainly a valid complaint as well. I was merely pointing out that any Actor Entity can be reset or replaced via developer console commands, at least on the PC. That would essentially knock the AI out her loop and put her back to a point in her routine where you can talk to her. You should look into whether or not the developer console is accessible on your system.

Remember hitting ~ in Quake to type in "/impulse 9" to get all weapons and ammo? Yeah, it's like that. :)
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #61 on: November 30, 2011, 02:16:24 PM »
Oh look...another terrible Skyrim bug that Bethesda was too lazy to program around.  I made it to the Mage College in Winderhold again.  This time the dragon that broke my game before attacked the main town, so I was able to fend it off there and that first Mage College quest passed without incident.  However, now that I'm in the college, I received a quest to retrieve a copy of "The Waters of Oblivion" from a dungeon near Iverstead.  Here's the problem: I already did that.  I have the book in my inventory.  But because I did that before I received the quest, now the man won't even acknowledge I have the book.  Great.  Did Bethesda really think no one would think to check a dungeon near the middle of the map before going to Winterhold way up on the northern edge of the map?
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #62 on: November 30, 2011, 02:32:51 PM »
Some of these issues will probably addressed in subsequent patches. That was why I said its probably best to wait a few months for the patches to show up. But looking at Oblivion, there were a lot of issues that did not get patched and Bethesda stopped supporting it after a point. So my point is Bethesda will patch SOME of the issues, but probably not all of them.
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Offline Morari

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #63 on: November 30, 2011, 02:34:50 PM »
The fan made patches have done a wonderful job of fixing anything in Oblivion that was leftover by Bethesda. The same has been true for Morrowind and both Fallout titles.
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Offline bustin98

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #64 on: November 30, 2011, 10:23:10 PM »
There are two quests I completed before being asked to: the dragon stone and the mammoth tusk. But I have seen some weird glitches comparing previous play-throughs.

In no way should this game be considered game of the year, though when it works, it works. Let  a game with less technical issues have those honors.

Offline broodwars

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #65 on: December 02, 2011, 12:19:36 PM »
So yesterday was a busy day, and an extremely tiring one with little sleep.  I have completed the College of Winterhold quest line, which contained the two most ridiculously long dungeons I've seen yet (4-5 loads deep).  I really liked how that story played out, and I'm quite satisfied with my character's status after completing it.  It's also worth noting that I had to kill another of those dragon priests to clear the last dungeon in that quest line.  Surprisingly, once again I found a dragon priest getting confused by the environment.  I easily sneaked up on him and backstabbed him, followed by a barrage of arrows that killed him before he could even get a shot off.  Krosis, he was not.

Between the probably 3-4 trips each dungeon back out to enchant and sell all my accumulated crap in those dungeons, I have maxed-out my Enchantment skill.  Sneak and Smithing's coming along as well, and I've been collecting Dragon Scales to use in crafting Dragonscale armor once I max out my Smithing.  I have just over 50,000 gold now, so I'm halfway to my goal of 100,000 for the associated trophy.  It's getting pretty annoying trying to sell this stuff once I've enchanted it, though.  I have yet to run into a shopkeeper in this game with more than 1,200 gold, and my enchanted weapons regularly sell for about 650 gold.  That means a lot of Quick Traveling around the world to find new merchants.

I have also started the Thieves Guild and Black Brotherhood quest lines (as well as having joined the Stormcloak faction), though I'm not yet a member of either organization.  By the time I'm done, though, I have a feeling I'm going to be a frickin' Tamriel mafia boss, with control over every major organization.   :cool;

As a quick bug report, the game crashed on me when I was "waiting" in Whiterun to get a merchant to appear.  Apparently, this process corrupted one of my autosaves, though thankfully my PS3 was able to restore my other data.  That does not fill me with confidence, though, that this game isn't going to royally screw me over with a crash some day.  My save file is also almost 7 MB, and even with the new PS3 patch the game really chugs in places like Whiterun.  It doesn't feel like Bethesda's fixed anything except having dragon corpses vanish after a while.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #66 on: December 02, 2011, 03:15:10 PM »
You know how you said Mass Effect is best played on the 360 because the PS3 didn't have the first one? Well, apparently Skyrim (and pretty much any Bethesda game for that matter) is best played on the PC. The console ports are the most buggy and these also receive the least attention in terms of fixes and support. Maybe since the 360 is the most PC like console maybe the game would play more stabily on that then on the PS3?
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Offline Shorty McNostril

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #67 on: December 02, 2011, 07:03:56 PM »
You know how you said Mass Effect is best played on the 360 because the PS3 didn't have the first one? Well, apparently Skyrim (and pretty much any Bethesda game for that matter) is best played on the PC. The console ports are the most buggy and these also receive the least attention in terms of fixes and support. Maybe since the 360 is the most PC like console maybe the game would play more stabily on that then on the PS3?

I thought this was made for the 360 and ported to PS3 and PC?

Offline broodwars

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #68 on: December 03, 2011, 01:35:29 AM »
As I type this, my PS3 is currently recovering from the sixth crash this game has triggered in the last 5 hours.  This is also the third time now (2nd tonight) that the crash has resulted in a corrupted auto-save.  Bethesda, would it really have KILLED YOU to release a game that actually works?  And I have nothing but disgust and contempt for every reviewer who gave this game an incredibly high score while also acknowledging all the technical problems.  At least for me on my PS3 copy with a 7 MB save file, this game is rapidly approaching Fallout 3 levels of utter technical instability.  It has become a crash factory for pretty much these last 10 game hours.

Aside from the joy of having to manually reboot my PS3 every hour or so, I did marry my character to one of the miners who lived on the outskirts of Riften.  She becomes a shopkeeper now that she's married, and I can always use one of those with as much enchanting and selling as I do.  I'm currently trying to claw my way through the next story dungeon, which the beginning of the Dark Brotherhood quest conveniently dropped me in front of.  Before the last crash occurred, I had stumbled across a flame trap.  My restoration magic's been extremely slow to level-up lately because my character is just too good.  Between sniping enemies with my Bound Bow conjuration spell or using my summons or magic, nothing's really gotten close enough to hit me.  So I was using that fire trap to constantly hurt me so I could gain some levels just constantly healing myself (since my MP recharges faster than my HP drops).
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #69 on: December 03, 2011, 03:01:54 AM »
That's great you can marry people. I didn't know that. That gives a nice Rune Factory/Harvest Moon touch to the game.

As for the crashes, I think it should be expected by now that Bethesda games are going to crash. Its just a fact of life, and you have to learn to deal with it. But that doesn't mean these games don't deserve high marks despite that. You seem to be played it a lot which means you must be enjoying it... if you hated the game these crashes would make you break the disc in half and throw it in the trash. But you keep on playing and rebooting because you are having a good time with it... and that's why people rate it highly in spite of the problems.

That said, maybe you should have played it on PC (or 360) instead. The PS3 is probably the least stable platform for this particular game.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #70 on: December 03, 2011, 03:16:33 AM »
That's great you can marry people. I didn't know that. That gives a nice Rune Factory/Harvest Moon touch to the game.

Don't get too excited.  It's pretty badly implemented.  You have to learn from a cleric in Riften that marriage is possible and is performed there.  You buy a charm that you wear, and certain NPCs in the game will ask you if you want to hook up (sometimes you have to do a quest for them first.  Mine did).  Then all of a sudden, they love your character and you're (happily?) married.  From that moment onwards, their only role in your character's life (assuming you didn't pick a battle character, which you can bring along with you into combat) is to sit around at home; be a shopkeeper in their spare time; and supply you with a 15% skill learn boost for 8 hours after you sleep in your bed at home.

Harvest Moon's romance system is goofy and almost insultingly stereotypical with how you just dump gifts on characters until they like you, but it comes off a lot better than this.

Quote
As for the crashes, I think it should be expected by now that Bethesda games are going to crash. Its just a fact of life, and you have to learn to deal with it. But that doesn't mean these games don't deserve high marks despite that. You seem to be played it a lot which means you must be enjoying it... if you hated the game these crashes would make you break the disc in half and throw it in the trash. But you keep on playing and rebooting because you are having a good time with it... and that's why people rate it highly in spite of the problems.

When it works, I do really like the game.  I've put well over 70 hours into the game, and I'll probably put at least 70 hours more into it before I'm done with it.  But I can tell you this: if Bethesda doesn't fix these massive instability problems in the very near future, when I've done all I can stand to do in that game I'm trading it in.   I won't be buying any DLC, and they can deal with a used copy out in the marketplace someone can pay Gamestop for instead of them.

What's really irritating about these PS3 issues is that it's obvious Bethesda and Sony never did any deep-layer testing with this game.  And if they did, they just threw up their hands and said "well, it's a Bethesda game and we don't want Microsoft to basically have exclusivity, so we'll just let the consumer deal with it."  All these crashes and other such glitches occur the further you get into the game and the larger your save file gets.  I can laugh at some of the goofy things I've seen like levitating mammoths and NPCs that fly magnetically through the air to where they're supposed to go.

But I draw the line at crashes.  If a quest breaks, you can reload an old save.  If a goofy physics or graphical glitch happens, you can just look past it.  But a crash is a total unrecoverable systems failure, and they're just getting more frequent the longer I play the game.  They're not even triggering only at Loading Screens anymore, as they also occur now if I spend too much time (i.e. more than 15 seconds) scrolling through the Perk trees, or if I pull up the menu sometimes.  I'm really getting concerned now that these crashes (especially because they're creating corrupted files) are going to have lasting damage on my PS3's hard drive.  And I just know this game will find a way to screw me over and corrupt all my files just as I'm on the verge of a well-deserved Platinum.

Quote
That said, maybe you should have played it on PC (or 360) instead. The PS3 is probably the least stable platform for this particular game.

I don't have a PC that can run it, and the only games I like playing on PC are P&C Adventures and RTS games.  As for my 360, that's reserved for Microsoft exclusives and pretty much nothing else.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 03:19:50 AM by broodwars »
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #71 on: December 03, 2011, 04:21:59 AM »
I remember Fallout 3 was really bad when I played it about 6 months or so ago. But from the sound of it you seem to be having even worse trouble with Skyrim. I think maybe at least some of your problem is that you are playing the game so soon after it was released so the patches haven't had time to really roll out yet. I don't know how many patches Bethesda will release for Skyrim. I'm sure they aren't going to patch every single problem, but I would expect they would have at least a few patches to knock some of the major problems out anyway.

When I played Fallout 3 it was long after Bethesda stopped supporting it, so I got the benefit of being able to play it with all the patches in effect. It was far from perfect, but as bad as it was I can only imagine if I was playing the game way back in 2008 when it was first released it was probably much worse.

For that reason maybe you should have waited a year or two for the Skyrim GOTY edition with all the DLC on one disc. By then the game would have seen at least a few patches, and you could have got all the DLC for one price instead of paying $60 now to play a buggy unfinished product.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #72 on: December 03, 2011, 05:01:41 PM »
Hmm...on a whim, I decided to burn it all and start fresh by deleting my game install data and patch, and then reinstalling it all.  I also unchecked the option to save every time I Wait.  The game has seemed to be a lot more stable since I did this.
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Offline Shorty McNostril

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #73 on: December 03, 2011, 05:43:39 PM »
I remember Fallout 3 was really bad when I played it about 6 months or so ago. But from the sound of it you seem to be having even worse trouble with Skyrim. I think maybe at least some of your problem is that you are playing the game so soon after it was released so the patches haven't had time to really roll out yet. I don't know how many patches Bethesda will release for Skyrim. I'm sure they aren't going to patch every single problem, but I would expect they would have at least a few patches to knock some of the major problems out anyway.

When I played Fallout 3 it was long after Bethesda stopped supporting it, so I got the benefit of being able to play it with all the patches in effect. It was far from perfect, but as bad as it was I can only imagine if I was playing the game way back in 2008 when it was first released it was probably much worse.

For that reason maybe you should have waited a year or two for the Skyrim GOTY edition with all the DLC on one disc. By then the game would have seen at least a few patches, and you could have got all the DLC for one price instead of paying $60 now to play a buggy unfinished product.

But you shouldn't have to. Why should the consumer have to wait 2 years after launch for a game that SHOULD be reliable from launch? If a company releases a game it should work.  It's as simple as that.  The whole "Bethesda make broken games anyway so just deal with it" attitude is not an excuse.  What if any other company released a game that performed as does Skyrim?  They would get raked over the coals for it by everyone possible.  Here we have a company that released broken games for a living and they get praised for it.  What kind of stupidity is that?

With the kind of praise, why would Bethesda even try to release a well built game?  They get praised for pumping out junk, so why spend more time and money on QA if they don't have to?  Those hours and workers can go into building their next broken game.

And can we even trust that Bethesda will really fix all the issues? Apparently Oblivion still has bugs in it and Bethesda didn't bother fixing them.  Why trust that they will fix Skyrim?

Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)
« Reply #74 on: December 03, 2011, 07:26:31 PM »
I don't trust they will fix all the bugs. They will however fix some, and hopefully most of them when all is said and done.

Bethesda games are only "junk" in terms of stability. Aside from that they are addictive and fun, and that's why despite all the problems people will still praise the games and play them.
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