Topic: RetroActive 40: La-Mulana

[Crimm]

This is the talkback for La-Mulana. We'll be doing this as part of the telethon on Dec 2. We hope you can join us, but feel free to post your thoughts here as well.

[ClexYoshi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcJZNRYRIpw

(EDIT: For posterity's sake, it seems like Youtube embeds on this forum are dead. the link to the youtube video will be provided instead.)


I highly suggest any people venturing into the ruins for the first time watch this video to get you started and give you a basic understanding of how La Mulana operates. none of the information within is necessarily hard to figure out, but is a good foundation to get your exploration started on!

[ejamer]

It seems silly you need to watch a "how to get started" video... but it really does help!


The only "problem" is that you give away quite a few of the easy puzzles - and the buzz you get from finding and solving puzzles is what this game is all about. Things only get harder from here on out. 


La-Mulana is a weird kind of game. It's (sort of) an open-world puzzle game that thrives on challenging you to progress when faced with non-obvious puzzles. Read tablets and (literally) take notes about what you've just read, because the obscure hints might apply to puzzles found on that screen, or elsewhere in the level, or in a different level altogether.


Actions taken on one screen might have key effects elsewhere - how will you know? First, by listening. A key item that you find very early (see the video) will make a sound whenever a puzzle has been unlocked. Second, by observing carefully. Sometimes there are clues in the background art that suggest links between screens or locations.


One thing I did note: this game reminded me in some ways of Toki Tori 2 - another open world puzzle game that requires much of the player. Toki Tori 2 is much easier overall, and probably will appeal to a wider audience because of that... but both are absolute gems in my opinion.

[ClexYoshi]

Yeah, I know, but like... the thing is, I've heard stories on this very forum of people missing the Shell Horn or the Grail and needing to restart the game because the remake stupidly allows you to save at any Grail Tablet at any time.

(For the record, the original Freeware game had you insert a Game Master Save cart into your MSX laptop, and then Xelpud would save your game. there was no hot spring, so often times you were restoring your HP by using the Grail to warp to the surface by pausing the game and hitting a number on the numpad to warp, equipping the Game Master cart, asking Xelpud to save the game, and then load the game because it VERY PURPOSEFULLY wouldn't save your current HP value, but rather start you out at full HP when you'd load the game. although the idea of needing to get an item to give you the right to save and having such rigid requirements seems like it's kinda obtuse, it very much also prevented situations where you'd ever save in a spot where you wouldn't be able to venture back out to the surface)

I could have made the walkthrough longer and covered the whole Guidance Gate, but I chose to highlight a good 5 or 6 puzzles to get folks started, and there's plenty of info left for them to discover on their own.

Like... I can see someone like James LOVING things like the infamous Room of Gems and Scales.


I actually never tried Toki Tori 2. I might have to check that game out.

[ejamer]

...
I actually never tried Toki Tori 2. I might have to check that game out.

You should! 

The two games are very different, but always leave me with a similar feeling. Maybe it's being able to try and progress in different areas when you get stuck, or the way that you have to identify where the puzzles are before trying to solve them, or the satisfaction of realizing something was available to you the whole time and just didn't realize it, or the way it's hard to ask for help because there is no set sequence and people approach the game differently. Maybe it's something else entirely. Maybe Azeke can comment, as I know he's a big fan of both games.

Toki Tori 2 is much easier, so maybe it wouldn't draw you in the same way. Only one way to know.

--

Do people speed run La-Mulana? It seems ripe for that kind of play... (says the guy who can only get maybe half-way through the game).

[azeke]

La Mulana is a game dedication to very specific line of Konami's MSX games -- same source from where Goonies 2 and Castlevania comes from.

MSX/Konami legacy dictates basically everything about the game:

-- weird jumping that comes from MSX/PC games where you jump by pressing arrow keys on keyboard instead of dedicated jump button. It is a lineage of jump physics that seems like completely missed Mario and Famicom/NES era of platformer games.

-- bullshit impenetrable secrets that force player to actively look for answers generating a buzz in gaming magazines, conventions or on a schoolyard. Same idea of game design that created many games in 80s like Milon's Secret Castle.

-- insane OST both in quality and in quantity:

-- speaking of quantity -- this game is huge. I read somewhere that Alien Soldier holds a record for number of bosses a game has. Well, one single late level of La-Mulana has more bosses than that entire game.

-- sprawling extremely non-linear interconnected non-Euclidean map. This feature makes most of the walkthroughs for the game basically unusable (especially if you're trying to avoid spoilers) because you can't just look up "where do i need to go now?" because that would require complete audit of your entire inventory and what you did and where you've already been and where you haven't.

Instead of that video would recommend just watching official tutorial from Nigoro themselves:

Or reading official manual:

http://la-mulana.com/download/lmlnpc_manual_en.pdf

^ also has cute drawings and comics!

[pokepal148]

I like climbing up a ladder, reaching the next screen up and there's a bird there that immediately swoops in and knocks you off the screen.

[ClexYoshi]

Yeah, Azeke, I thought about linking that official tutorial, but then I remembered there's a bit where Mulbrook starts making implied masturbation jokes, and I thought maybe people want a gentler and more exhaustive idea of how the first 20 minutes of the game might go for them.


People do still run La Mulana, but they have ways to ground and wall clip all over the place to do a ton of sequence breaking.


If you want the Konami game that La Mulana pulls most of it's DNA from, it's this guy right here:

Also, yes. many of the regular enemies in La Mulana are designed to give more frustrating knockback rather than do crazy damage. Lemeza's life bar is more balanced to be a stamina meter that determines how long he can spend poking around the ruins for answers then anything else. Most of the time, if something is actually going to kill Lemeza, it'll be a boss/Miniboss, a hazard like Water or Lava, or from triggering a trap or the lightning from striking the walls or whatever.

[Evan_B]

I refuse to play this game because of rigged elections.

I'm talking specifically about the lack of Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: The Crystal Bearers' inclusion. It may not be Wiiware, but it's also not WiiUWare.

[ejamer]

Open a "let's play" thread in the forums and see if people will join in?
I don't have time (or interest) now, but would over the holiday break.


But that's a sorry reason to avoid playing a good game that people are hoping to talk about now.   






For people who are starting to play La-Mulana, what challenges are you running into? Is there anything making your early game more difficult than you think it should be?


For me, it was definitely the "mid-air movement" controls. They work well once you are used to the controls, but being unable to control your momentum in some jumps but not others was a big learning curve when I started - probably the hardest initial thing to come to grips with.

[azeke]

Another part of La-Mulana that is identifiable as Konami influence are it's NPCs and how they give you hints and how you interact with them. Depending on conditions and time they have different lines. It's kinda similar to codec companions from Metal Gear.

It's kinda surreal having the same type of achievements of "listen to ALL possible lines from certain character" in both La Mulana and Metal Gear Rising.

Calling codec in MGS games any time anything happens is just as tedious as constantly warping to Xelpud and Mulbruk in hopes that game gives you a new line of dialogue. On my playthrough on PC i only read around 2/3 of all lines:

I have no idea how people do these type of achievements, because they're so easy to screw up and miss one line.

[ClexYoshi]

one of my friends went INSANE trying to plan out the sort of playthrough you need to have to see all their dialogue in a single go through, as some of Xelpud's stuff in particular is tied to an invisible point counter that goes up whenever you collect new items for Lemeza's inventory or hit certain progress markers. He once showed me a nightmareish flowchart of what threshholds you can get dialogue at, and what events will overwrite current dialogue for new dialogue.

It looked about as messy as if you tried to draw a giant map of the ruins.



One thing one quickly learns about La Mulana is that if the developers want you to suffer and learn harsh life lessons, Naramura-san will make it happen. This game is designed both as a completionist's dream and nightmare. Although I don't want to broach the subject yet, I am intently awaiting someone to talk about the Hell Temple experience here.


By the way, if I can find the time to get around to it, would people have any desire to see me stream or record some more La Mulana? it's a tricky thing because a game so based on puzzle solving and getting lolz as the game makes a complete and total buffoon out of you is a HUGE part of the experience.

[azeke]

People are quick to bring up famed difficulty and impenetrable puzzles of La-Mulana but there isn't much discussion about the game's story, atmosphere and inspirations. Obviously it's because not many people got far into it but i would have liked anyone to mention even just an intro which sets up the premise of the game: an extra-dimensional entity that's referred as Mother "fell" on Earth billions years ago. Stuck there, it wants to return and uses her power of creating life hoping these children find a way.

Story even ties the existence of humanity as just a footnote in a grand scope of it's lore. As you keep exploring the dungeon -- each with it's own theme, history and real world mythological inspirations, you will read more lore about the children. And you will have to -- because puzzles might ask you to know names of the Giants for example and where each of them stands.

Story of Giants alone is pretty notable by itself and has a fantastic theme:

[ClexYoshi]

I do love the narrative. on the surface, there's all the self-deprecating humor where everyone seems to think Lemeza is a loser of some sort (especially his father), but the game does hit on a neat narrative. Even if the opening cutscene didn't give away what Azeke wrapped in the spoiler text, there's a ton of different things about La Mulana. each area is designed to take it's architecture and imagery from different parts of the world... from the Celtic crosses that dot the Spring in the Sky, to the Chamber of birth evoking India. They even go all-out Atlantis with the tower of the goddess or just straight-up steampunk with Tower of Ruin. It really contrasts in neat ways with the decided Mayan and central american type of stuff that you first start seeing in the guidance gate and Mausoleum of the Giants.


I think one of the best puzzles that tied into the game's lore  was kinda nerfed for the remake. I understand why because it's a puzzle that required you have knowledge of things from outside the game, but it effectively required the player to have knowledge of the Aztec calender, be able to manually translate the numerals of the La Mulanese alphabet without use of the hand scanner, and then from there figure out that the world ends in 2012, which was another angle this game plays up.

it turns out that the mother was going to wake up in but a few short years anyhow and wipe out humanity anyhow because they hadn't figured out how to get her sorry ass off this rock she's been stuck on, and create another set of children to see if they could figure out how to get the mother back into outer space. there had already been 7 extinction events beforehand, and it uses this to tie in various mythological creatures into the La Mulana mythos.

[ClexYoshi]

Sorry to double post. finally had some time to play the game this weekend between various goings on in my life and the agressive ammount of drawing I've been doing...!

Progress is as follows:

Inventory:
Chain Whip
Knife
Axe

Shuriken
Rolling Shuriken
Flare Gun
Earth Spear
Chakram
Caltrops
Pistol
Buckler
Ankh Jewel (Gate of Guidance)
Ankh Jewel (Mausoleum of the Giants)
Ankh Jewel (Temple of the Sun)
Ankh Jewel (Spring in the Sky)

Hand Scanner
Dragon Bone
Maternity Statue
Pepper
Mini-Doll

Mobile Super X
Waterproof Case
Heatproof Case
Shell Horn
Glove
Holy Grail
Isis' Pendant
Crucifix
Helmet
Grapple Claw
Bronze Mirror
Scalesphere
Hermes' Boots
Ice Cape
Eye of Truth
Plane Model
Spaulder
Fruit of Eden
Anchor
Fairy Clothes


Origin Seal
Birth Seal
Life Seal

Sacred Orb (Guidance Gate)
Sacred Orb (Mausoleum of the Giants)
Sacred Orb (Spring in the Sky)
Sacred Orb (Surface)
Sacred Orb (Tower of Ruin)

Software:

reader.exe
xmailer.exe
yagomap.exe
guild.exe
move.exe
deathv.exe

Bosses defeated: 0


So far I've been going by memory, doing what I can before I open up any of the major stuff that comes after you start defeating bosses. some of this i'm at right now is mostly stuff that requires farming to make happen.

I may make a video on the appropriate ways to farm in this game, as otherwise it can be very time consuming, or you simply just have to wait until very late when you start finding the Miracle.EXE combos.

EDIT: made a little more progress thanks to finally getting a couple of friggin' Key faries. @___@

I'm starting to hit a lot of dead ends without the feather, but there are still a few small things I can get before I'm absolutely FORCED to beat a boss to progress. there's still a couple more items I can snag up with key faeries. I had to take such an AMAZINGLY circuitous path through the ruins to be able to get half of this garbage far 'earlier' than I should have.

EDIT 2: I made a little more push. in game timer says I'm at 6 hours, but It's probably closer to 7 given how bad the RNG was for getting key faeries.It's amazing how I seem to just keep finding stuff to do before I defeat even a single main boss. There's certainly programs I can pick up still. Sadly, Chi You is immune to damage without the Book of the Dead, which requires Ellmac to be defeated, so I may have hit my dead end for real progress.

I really would not suggest playing the path I'm taking through the game unless you're really darned bored or you wanted to get the steam achievemo for all character ending, because the Fairy Clothes and move.exe+deathv.exe does a ot towards increasing your survivability against the hard mode bosses.

[ejamer]

(Quietly disappointed that nobody else wants to post about the game. It's an awesome game for people who like old-school challenges or figuring things out themselves.)


That is one of the things that I love about this game - if you aren't sure what to do next, there are almost always several different ways to look for progress. Sure, eventually you'll be forced to move in a specific direction (beating bosses, for example) but it's rare to find you only have one option for exploration.

[ClexYoshi]

I actually dug up Pixelated Pixies' old thread on La Mulana back when it hit Wiiware in 2012 and kinda look on it with fondness. the first few posts were filled with folks intimidated by the game because Pixies had a hard time wrapping his head around the puzzle design. Poor dude WANTED to like the game, but I just don't think what the developers were going for really jived with 'em.

I kinda view La Mulana in the same light as I do EDF 2017 (heh) where it's a game that sets out to do EXACTLY what it wants, and damn the consequences. Granted, that manifests itself in different ways. with EDF, it's the game's TERRIBLE framerate as a result of having a field of Giant Spiders as far as the eye can see and bug gibs flying every which way, while with La Mulana, it's that it's obtuse in a way that's purposeful and that makes you really feel like the ruins were built to repel would-be intruders. I respect Devs that have the huge, plentiful balls to make the game THEY want and have it come out so laser focused.

Seriously, I've been having trouble putting the game down again since I've started playing it again, and I'm so excited to hear the podcast and community call me a horrible monster for pushing one of my favorite games of all time. : D


EDIT:










I miiiiiiight be able to get the bracer and snapshot.exe if I sat there and farmed for money, but as it stands, I'm probably out of points of progression of any sort without beating Ellmac at least.

that being said, between having 7 Sacred Orbs, the Fairy Clothing, the Spaulder, and Randc.exe+Mekuri.exe combo, I can probably just jump into him with the axe a few times and come out the victor.


I feel like i should quickly explain why this is the case, though.

Bosses normally for the most part, besides being required to beat the final boss, also seal doors that connect an area of the ruin with it's 'backside' equivalent.

Elmac is special though, in that his defeat opens up access to the Twin Labyrinth gas chamber, the door that connects Temple of the Sun and Temple of the Moon's bottom half, and most importantly, opens up a door containing a new NPC named Mulbrook.

Mulbrook, much like Xelpud, will sometimes dispense important information about the ruins. what's more, Mulbrook holds an item that's key to progressing that in the original game, was just in the Temple of the Moon once you solved a puzzle.

Holding the Book of the Dead, you can do damage to Anubis and Chi-you. Chi-You guards the Key to Eternity, which lets you go deeper into the endless corridor and Chamber of Birth, while Anubis guards the Serpent Staff, which allows you to damage Argus, an enemy on the surface. beating Argus nets you the featehr, which lets Lemeza double jump,a nd I've ran into SO MANY SPOTS where Lemeza just... can't solve a puzzle without that second jump. :C between the Feather's double jump and a couple of treasures found in the endless corridor, I'm pretty sure I won't have to defeat a boss agian until I've collected the rest of the weapons, most of the software, and seen all but maybe 2 of the grail points.

[pokepal148]

This was just not a good time for a retroactive of this kind. A lot of people are busy with the Holidays, Odyssey just came out, I fear between those two things a lot of people won't be able to sink the kind of time you need to finish this game, especially since from what I hear it's about a 30 hour game.

[ClexYoshi]

This was just not a good time for a retroactive of this kind. A lot of people are busy with the Holidays, Odyssey just came out, I fear between those two things a lot of people won't be able to sink the kind of time you need to finish this game, especially since from what I hear it's about a 30 hour game.

I'd say closer to 15 if you're not like... endlessly butting your head agaisnt the wall or dying... and really, you shouldn't be dying all tat much unless you're under-prepared for a mini-boss or  you get repeatedly duped by the same sorts of death traps. I think I've died all of about 3 times so far this playthrough.

Still, I do kinda see your point. it's a little easier for me to justify it setting up the Wii U Gamepad on it's charger stand and playing it like that while I do various Web Browsing/art/whatever. I suppose with someone like Jon, they can do some Vita tub time La Mulana and even enjoy the extra features they added like the bestiary.

Other people still I think are just... intimidated. I spoke to one particular person on Discord who specifically told me they're looking forward to the retroactive discussion, but have no desire to take the personal dive into the ruins.

How's your playthrough going, Pokepal?

[ejamer]

This was just not a good time for a retroactive of this kind. A lot of people are busy with the Holidays, Odyssey just came out, I fear between those two things a lot of people won't be able to sink the kind of time you need to finish this game, especially since from what I hear it's about a 30 hour game.

I'd say closer to 15 if you're not like... endlessly butting your head agaisnt the wall or dying... and really, you shouldn't be dying all tat much unless you're under-prepared for a mini-boss or  you get repeatedly duped by the same sorts of death traps. I think I've died all of about 3 times so far this playthrough.

...

Oh, I disagree here.


15 hours is fine if you have some community support and are looking up clues and hints, but I don't think anyone would be able to puzzle their way through the game that quickly the first time through without help. When I restarted the game, I was able to cut hours off my initial experience... and that's only for the first half of the game.


Also, I think most people new to the game will die. Not excessively (once you get the basics of the game down) and not necessarily often if you are being careful... but that ties into the play time. If you are too careful, you lose time by warping up to the hot springs to heal; if you aren't careful enough you lose progress by dying. That's a tightrope each player has to walk when learning the game...  It's also normal to get caught in a situation you aren't prepared for when still learning the game, or to die repeatedly while figuring out how to beat a boss.

[ClexYoshi]

this is true. That's kinda like saying Ultima IV is a 60 hour game when you go into it not understanding how the Virtue system or the spells work.

La Mulana is kinda an 80's gaming mag's wet dream of a game. although there's a clue for everything SOMEWHERE laying around either via background details, tablets, NPC dialogue, or other means, and brute forcing this game on your own is a means of playing the game that I don't think would be very fun.


I remember at some point reading an interview with Takumi Naramura from when the freeware game had been released that explained that he wanted the game to engender a sense of community; of kids on the playground all getting the game, sharing their secrets, maybe one of them has a Famitsu subscription so they know some sort of secret that surprises the rest of the group... they share research notes, not unlike a real excavation and archaeological team.


This comes to life in the form of the crazy Non-linear progression of the game, and how two different people can have relatively similar completion percentages, but have a wildly different inventory from one another! merely talking about the crazy puzzles one another solved and learning from one another is crazy awesome experience!


THAT is why I wanted this retroactive so bad. yes, it's a tight time, and yeah, the genie is out of the bottle for some members of this forum who have played the game before, but I was hoping that by leaving the first little scrap in the form of a video that folks would come onto this forum, share their experience, and piece together the mystery of the ruins together!


Obviously I kinda gave up on that by going nuts and having two big posts on my progress in between the drives to raise funds for child's play before the telethon.

[ejamer]

...
kids on the playground all getting the game, sharing their secrets, maybe one of them has a Famitsu subscription so they know some sort of secret that surprises the rest of the group... they share research notes, not unlike a real excavation and archaeological team.
...
merely talking about the crazy puzzles one another solved and learning from one another is crazy awesome experience!
...

Do people still do this?
I agree - it's an awesome way to play, if you can get a group together who are making progress at the same time. But it feels like the internet has fundamentally changed things.


I'm super old now, so grew up in a time where playground discussion (sharing secrets both real and imagined) was a real thing. So for me, hard games like this really pull me back to that era. But now that the internet acts as a "universal truth" and games have become more and more straightforward, I don't think people expect or look for this type of communal experience.


The last time I remember it happening was probably with the X-Com (original and Terror From the Deep) games on PC, back in the late 90s.

[lolmonade]

What's funny is that I realize I actually did purchase this game a long time ago on Wiiware.  But I let my friend borrow my Wii U since August, so I wouldn't be able to participate in this one even if I wanted to.

[ejamer]

Question for people playing the game:


One thing I've always found a bit annoying the managing the number of weights (little brown cylinders used to trigger switches) you carry. They are too expensive to buy, as you generally need to save money for other weapons and items... so I always end up grinding somewhere to stock on them when needed. Is that the right approach?


The game seems to expect this, and there are several spots where you can easily move in/out of a room with respawning enemies that drop weights immediately in striking distance. One of my favorite places to do this is in the opening area, close to the waterfall where you have 4 birds on screen. It takes just a few seconds to kill 3 out of 4, and then you can refresh the screen and try again.

[azeke]

The most engaging games always immerse you in their world -- through lore, backstory, music, art. For La-Mulana one must appreciate the sheer amount of work done if nothing else (just script alone is gigantic!). But it goes even beyond these means and creates it's own made-up language.

"birth", "life", "death", "origin", "rebirth" all are terms in La-Mulana's made-up languages that the game constantly subtly shows to you leading to several mid-to-late puzzles where you figure out which hieroglyphs in "lamulanese" corresponds to these words.

Even beyond that -- even after you translated and read the hints -- you still need to figure out the text itself. Eventually you will find repeating terms: "wise man", "fool", "courage", they codify a certain thing in La Mulana and you will have to know what they mean. Using a map, reading room names, examining every little detail is crucial to understanding.

Creating it's own vocabulary -- all good games do that to certain extent. When you talk about your experience in these games you might say things like: "i talked to Malon and did a trading quest until i got Roc's feather" or "i played as Lost, got Cricket's Head and several Tears Up pills and killed Ultra Greed " -- sounds like gibberish to people who didn't played these games but to you it might mean a monumental world shattering revelation. Like the one i had when i discovered bronze mirror.

And game is filled with these moments -- pay off to Eden puzzle, Man/Woman quests, mini-bosses, bosses, Xelpud's amazing moment late-game, the ending. Even cheap (if totally predictable) traps are very memorable.

These 2 weeks i've been replaying the game on Steam aiming for both "beat the game in less than 10 hours" and "defeat all bosses with just primary weapon" achievements. I more or less remember the solutions for first half so i could breeze through that -- getting Axe like five minutes in helps a lot. Axe is the only weapon not gated by some kind of seal and/or an ability and you can get it right away if you know where it is. Throughout entire game Axe will be the most useful weapon for bosses because it reaches higher vertically so getting it that early is huge.

Starting from Corridor of Illusion and Chamber of Birth i had to consult wiki because that's where i initially gave up on my first playthrough. I don't remember these solutions because i didn't solve them myself (that and they're extremely obscure).

I have all the passive items and almost all active items --only missing last few that unlock final boss. I will kill Nü Wa and will challenge Dimensional Corridor and it's boss next. My in-game time is at 5:50.

Aside from that i was also watching several playthroughs of the game. The most impressive one was usedpizza's playthrough where he beat the game completely on his own without any hints:

It was fascinating and kinda infuriating seeing him solving puzzles way faster and earlier than intended, some -- by luck and some -- by sheer bruteforcing (the highlight would be balancing the scales puzzle which he solved by randomly placing stones on his third attempt). He's also very capable as gamer and aside from one boss that he got to too early for his own good -- it usually only took him just several tries to kill all bosses.