Author Topic: Warren Spector on E3, Violence, and Epic Mickey  (Read 8714 times)

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Offline broodwars

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Re: Warren Spector on E3, Violence, and Epic Mickey
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2012, 11:47:24 AM »
Let's not confuse violence with shocking brutality.

Pikmin is a shockingly brutal game.   ;)
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Warren Spector on E3, Violence, and Epic Mickey
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2012, 12:01:06 PM »
If you really look at what's happening in that game, it kind of is. They just gloss over it with bright colors.
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Offline leahsdad

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Re: Warren Spector on E3, Violence, and Epic Mickey
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2012, 12:48:43 PM »
Let's not confuse violence with shocking brutality.

Pikmin is a shockingly brutal game.   ;)


Oh, most definitely.   There is a kind of violence and/or brutality in most games, and most Nintendo games too.   What are you doing to the poor Goombas in Mario, really?  But what Spector is objecting to is the marriage of the ideas of "violence" and "mature" --  If it is violent, it is mature (the ESRB echoes this), if it is mature, then it is violent, and if it is not violent, then it is not mature.

And the thing is, you'll see kids (and adults) say things like "Whoa, that headshot was awesome in Call of Duty" or "oh, you can do an awesome fatality in Mortal Kombat."   Violence is the draw here, a tickbox which is checked off in conjunction with other game  features.   "Multiplayer?  Got it.   Unreal Engine 3?  Got it.   Exploding bloody heads?  Got it."  No one says "Oh man, those fireballs really killed the Koopa Troopas!  That was awesome!"  Violence is not the spectacle in a Mario game.

But like I said I don't think there is really anything you can do, nor should you do anything, about violence in media.  It's nothing new, and it will always be in vogue.   But I think it's a shame when something that is less over-the-top violent is dismissed, not because it lacks in quality, but because it lacks in gore.
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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Warren Spector on E3, Violence, and Epic Mickey
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2012, 01:40:06 PM »
I think as a society we have to recognize the ages between 3rd grade and 6th grade can handle more than those in infancy - 2nd grade and that 7th grade and on are a different age group that can handle anything. I think the paradigm is really messed up. If anything in my opinion T rated games would be appropriate for someone who is 8 years and up. Everyone knows that kids aged 13 and up get M rated games, I certainly did. If anything there should be another rating like T15+ that is what M is now

it should be ec, E, E8+, T, T15+, M, AO
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Warren Spector on E3, Violence, and Epic Mickey
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2012, 03:28:54 PM »
Most games have a very basic gameplay of "kill or be killed".  In Space War your goal is to kill the other ship.  Right from the beginning videogames had violence.

What's disturbing is when causing human suffering is the source of entertainment.  That's pretty sick and I don't want that to be normal.  There is a difference between taking joy in that and just the thrill of what is essentially videogame self-defence (only a hardcore pacifist wouldn't shoot the demons in Doom; they're trying to kill you, you have a gun.  What else would you do?)

The problem is that any real attempt to track down on legitimately disturbing and sadistic violence in videogame or in movies is often overblown.  You give someone the power to censor and they turn into a tyrant.  Games will be significantly restricted if you allow this.

The industry has it's own independent ratings board.  Perhaps the ESRB should just pop out the AO rating more often for games where the player's entertainment is directly related to causing human suffering.  There is a big difference between sadastically murdering someone and just shooting the guy who would have killed you.  If the ESRB does it, then those games can still be made for those that want them.

Offline Oblivion

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Re: Warren Spector on E3, Violence, and Epic Mickey
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2012, 06:39:52 PM »
Human pain and suffering has been a form of entertainment for over two thousand years. It's deep rooted in every culture. Why would this be any different?


I'm not an advocate for these violent games, but I'm not against them either. Let people play what they want to play. There's no concrete data that it harms them mentally, so why not let them play it. I can understand if they are too young, but don't make these games AO so NO ONE can enjoy them.

Offline Ax23000

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Re: Warren Spector on E3, Violence, and Epic Mickey
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2012, 04:57:46 PM »
Let's not get side tracked into whether Spector is saying that violence doesn't have a place in games.  This is one of the chief minds behind Deus Ex, which he brings up in the very interview we're discussing.   If you've played it you know that this was a violent game, rife with guns, bombs, soldiers, etc.


The issue Spector is raising is more subtle than "Violence is bad."  The issue he raises is one of how violence is portrayed in video games and what it means within the world of most games.


Several posters have mentioned movies and other art forms and how violence has a long standing role in those other art-forms.  They go on to ask why, therefore, video games should be treated any different.  The difference is that those other art-forms, taken as a whole, provide a much more well rounded view of violence.


A quick dirty example: Saving Private Ryan is an incredibly violent movie, but it asks very real questions about the nature of violence and war.  While there have been war games whose story plays lip service to similar ideas (all be it almost always in a superficial way), the gameplay nearly without exception tends to glorify the action and violence.


To be sure, there are plenty of stories, plays, movies, and poems that glorify violence.  But there are also many more that use violence to ask hard questions of the characters and the world that they (and we) inhabit.


Another, more complicated, example.  Beowulf.  The earliest surviving English epic poem is in many ways the ancient equivalent to a video game story.  It stars a larger than life male role-model.  Beowulf is hardcore to the max.  He spends his time wandering around beating down monsters, swimming in a full suit of armor and just generally all around kicking ass and taking names.


But where video games stop there, Beowulf digs deeper...much deeper.  It asks hard questions about violence and what it means to live a violent life.


Video games, and many video game developers, seem terrified to do this.  They don't want to dig deep.  They want to provide gamers with an easy, mindless, escape and violence (which is rooted deep down in the human psyche) tends to be the way they go about this.  And to be sure, there is a place for mindless violent games, but the industry seems unwilling to make anything else.


That, as I see it, is the problem that Spector is addressing in his remarks.