Topic: Japanese style games going extinct?

[KDR_11k]

Because some idiots derailed and killed the FF13 thread while I was typing this up I'll post this in a separate thread.

It seems to me that the japanese style of game design is dying out on the HD consoles. Even the games that do get made on them seem to be designed to look like western games. Where previously Square-Enix and co dominated the RPG scene now they've yielded to the likes of Bioware and Bethesda. The only genre that still seems to live is the Dynasty Warriors clone. The games that do come out fail critically and in the market. Of course anything that comes out is a retread of an idea from the previous gen but that's hardly a surprise. The gaming landscape on these platforms is becoming as brown and dull as the next-gen graphics themselves.

This is probably a misperception by me but when I look at store shelves for these systems everything is dull and uninteresting. Seems the only place where anything is still happening is on WiiWare.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

and DS, you might want to note.

[Pale]

I think it's definitely the case, but not because fans of Japanese style games are starting to hate them.  I think it's just a product of North America becoming the video game cash cow.

It did that by pulling many more gamers in, and those gamers just like western games more.

Now that the Wii is pulling in non-gamers with what could be called a "neo-japanese" game design of simplicity, fun, and cuteness, I can't help but wonder if tides will shift back to Japan, but classic Japanese games will continue to die out. (which would make me sad. Why can't we have all types of games?)

[ThePerm]

good! I watched my sister in law play some shitty RPG when i wanted to do much better things. Damn that game was so cliche and awful. I really don't like most RPG's they are all the same. I do like RPG elements in games, but you will not catch me playing a traditional one.

"[People who play RPGs are] depressed gamers who like to sit alone in their dark rooms and play slow games." Amen

[Ymeegod]

Well to be fair the last two Square-Enix games I played were Infinite Undiscovery and Last Remnant and both of them were underpar and deserverd to be overlooked. 

For the most part the US never did have a huge japanese RPG fanbase.  Final Fantasy was one of the few games that sold millions even though there's been plenty of good RPG titles.

Personally I love my turn-based games.  Nearly cried when I heard that Front Mission games weren't being converted to NA anymore.  Just spent over 100 hours with Pesona 4 and loved everyminute of it.   

[Ymeegod]

""[People who play RPGs are] depressed gamers who like to sit alone in their dark rooms and play slow games." Amen"  Ouch.  Not really depressed though as long as I have my cake.

[KDR_11k]

The Wii will probably shift the focus back but I don't think the Wii's absorption can account for the lack of eastern games on the HD consoles (since it doesn't seem to have absorbed much third-party dev power yet, at least not much that led to any results, the game releases still resemble the Gamecube situation). Maybe it's the DS that ate them all, yeah. Western companies seem seriously inept on that system since many treat it as a market for cheap knock-offs of big console releases. Western devs seem to be skilled mostly at PC development and since the HD consoles are pretty much PCs for casual gamers...

[ThePerm]

""[People who play RPGs are] depressed gamers who like to sit alone in their dark rooms and play slow games." Amen"  Ouch.  Not really depressed though as long as I have my cake.

i was quoting Hiroshi Yamauchi.....QFT

[Deguello]

I'd be more willing to believe this if Nintendo wasn't crushing down on the entire industry with the massive weight of it's DS and Wii empires and making more money than the rest of the industry combined.  Nintendo is a Japanese company and their games are THE biggest sellers this gen.  Just because Japanese developers want to ignore the Wii doesn't mean that Japanese games themselves are going to die out.  Those companies will either adapt or die.

Besides, it's not as if Western games have the rosiest image of performance these days, either.

[Bill Aurion]

If anything I see Japanese games making a comeback, considering the direction 3rd party support on the Wii is going (focusing more on Wii now, with Western 3rd parties still in HD Land...)

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I think Nintendo makes Japanese games.

[NWR_pap64]

Let's see who is the first to "troll" this thread an anger the forum gods...

[Ghisy]

Dang, if JRPGs just go extinct, I would be a sad, sad gamer...

[Adrock]

Square Enix is not going anywhere because their brand might is far too strong. Despite SE's hyper half-assed attempt to appeal to western gamers with The Last Remnant, their design philosophy, both in terms of aesthetics and gameplay, don't seem primed to change any time soon. FFXIII's Lightning was designed to be a female version of Cloud, who already looked kind of female to begin with. Tetsuya Normura's zipper laden character designs will be seen in many a J-RPG to come, mark my words.

Many Japanese developers are noticing that there are too many copycats out there and consumers are responding by what they do and do not spend money on. I don't think it's a matter of Japanese style games dying out and/or Western styled games taking over. Rather, I think many Japanese developers are beginning to figure out what Miyamoto has known for the past 30 years and what many Western developers learned first: innovation is key to game development and you can't just gank someone else's idea and hope to succeed.

[Ian Sane]

I thought the issue was the Japan's gaming tastes have changed.  Nintendo was really emphasizing that when they first introducing the non-gaming concept.  Iwata was talking about people getting bored of games and such and here in North America it was like "what the hell are you talking about?"  It just didn't seem to make that much sense from the Western perspective.  But Twilight Princess apparently didn't sell so hot in Japan while non-games and portables are all the rage there.

If JRPGs for example aren't selling in Japan then they probably aren't going to last too long here and it won't even be because of the American market's tastes.  I don't think too many Japanese companies design their games specifically with the Western market in mind.  Most of those great Japanese games we love were designed to sell in Japan and it's like "oh that's a nice coincidence" that it sold in America as well.  Look at how Nintendo seems so down on Metroid.  Metroid isn't so popular in Japan.  Now their attitude should be "who cares?" because the US is a larger market but I don't think they see it that way.

[Adrock]

Changed because all the games were so formulaic. Nintendo's own non-non-gamer titles consistently sold well. There's a perfectly sound reason Twilight Princess didn't perform as well as expected: it took no chances, it was formulaic, it was everything so many Japanese gamers were railing against.

Final Fantasy will always sell in Japan. Dragon Quest will always sell in Japan. JRPGs will sell so long as Japanese developers shy away from cliches, such as the spiky haired hero (Cloud), amnesia (Cloud), emo personality (Cloud), orphans (Aeris), the innocent magically gifted girl (Aeris) and so on.

[WuTangTurtle]

Where previously Square-Enix and co dominated the RPG scene now they've yielded to the likes of Bioware and Bethesda.

I liked Mass Effect and Fallout 3 but it would be a very sad day if those kind of games replaced JRPRGs.  Anyone else feel like Mass Effect was pretty linear and empty for a game where you are exploring different galaxies!?

Luckily some JRPGs are on the way though, I believe Star Ocean comes out next month on 360.

[NWR_pap64]

Would you say that one of the reasons JRPGs are not doing as well as they should in Japan is because the market was over saturated? It seemed like RPGs were being released non-stop, creating an apathy in gamers, save for the likes of FF and DQ?

Its kinda like right now the American market is being over saturated with FPS games and casual games (being fair here, forum gods!). Sooner or later the public will get tired of them, forcing an eventual disappearance of the genre while another genre steps in.

[Ian Sane]

I think pap is pretty dead on about the genre being oversaturated.  They are a lot of RPGs and a lot of them are very similar.  I've gotten rather bored of them because the stories and settings are so damn similar.  At first I kind of liked that because that was new and interesting to me and I wanted more of it but everything gets boring after a while.  And I'm not even a regular RPG guy here in the West.  So if you were a big RPG nut in a country where the most RPGs are released you would easily get burned out on the franchise without some shake up.

I'm hoping it doesn't disappear but just shrinks back a bit.  There was a time where beat-em-ups and shmups were huge.  We still get decent shmups.  Last gen we got Ikaruga, R-Type Final and Gradius V.  If you're into shmups those three games are heaven.  It isn't like the TurboGrafx 16 days where every second game was a shmup but they still do make those games and there isn't as much filler.  With beat-em-ups though the genre has died.  The last good beat-em-up was, what, Dynamite Cop on the Dreamcast?  I think if RPGs became a little more like shmups, in that you see them less frequently but when they show up it's like a really major game in the genre, it wouldn't be so bad.  Better than disappearing outright.  And considering the length of RPGs if one really great one came out a year it would be much easier to follow the genre.

[Bill Aurion]

Interestingly enough, I think this generation has been lacking in RPGs of the traditional variety, or at least original titles (original as in not a remake)...Consoles have had a mere handful, with most of them going to the DS, and even then there's been way less than was on the PS2 last gen...

But I do believe SRPGs specifically have this over-saturation problem...There's like a billion of them for the DS!  And right when you think something new and exciting will be announced, it ALSO turns out to be an SRPG!  I guess it's the flavor of the generation for whatever reason...

[KDR_11k]

SRPGs seem fairly cheap to develop since there's not much need to make areas to explore, everything can be composed of fairly ugly tiles and there's no need for NPCs either, everything can be an enemy or a controllable character (or frequently both). Battles take so long that 2-3 can be enough filler to take a few hours.

[LuigiHann]

Phoenix Wright is a pretty Japanese-style game.

[Flames_of_chaos]

I don't think Japanese style games are extinct there are a ton of small niche Japanese games and all platforms even the HD consoles. If companies like Aksys,Koei,Atlus,Xseed, Marvelous, Ubisoft(they localized their share of niche Japanese games), NIS, Majesco(they localize occasionally), Ignition(they localize occasionally),Q? Entertainment, Atari(they occasionally publish niche Japanese games) exist there will always be a big pool of Japanese games in America since they usually come from those publishers.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I honestly think it is a cycle. We see it all the time where a genre gets over saturated (I think the FPS genre is getting close to this point) and collapses, but after a few years it can see a resurgence again.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I don't wanna wait a few years, I gotta see collapse NOW.

[WuTangTurtle]

Well I think it's gonna shrink a bit especially since so many big time FPS flopped.  Free Radical is gone now thanks to Haze, Army of Two didn't sell very well, and Fracture failed to sell well.  I think it's gonna come to a point where only the biggest FPS developers are gonna be making them kind of like how RPG's are now.  You'll have your Call of Duty, Halo, and anything Valve comes up with.  Oh and James Bond games due to the continuing movie releases.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Well I think it's gonna shrink a bit especially since so many big time FPS flopped.  Free Radical is gone now thanks to Haze, Army of Two didn't sell very well, and Fracture failed to sell well.  I think it's gonna come to a point where only the biggest FPS developers are gonna be making them kind of like how RPG's are now.  You'll have your Call of Duty, Halo, and anything Valve comes up with.  Oh and James Bond games due to the continuing movie releases.

Well the signs are there. Maybe we'll see a GOOD James Bond FPS?


OK maybe not.

[Flames_of_chaos]

I honestly think it is a cycle. We see it all the time where a genre gets over saturated (I think the FPS genre is getting close to this point) and collapses, but after a few years it can see a resurgence again.

I think FPS games are more than over saturated and in a way RPGs however there are more generic FPS games than generic and dull RPGs.

[Kairon]

Well... many of these so-called "Japanese style games" were heavily dependent on a ravenous and unsustainable hardcore marketplace. When the Japanese market readjusted downwards (a trend which inspired Nintendo to re-invigorate the market with the DS and its unique market strategy), many of these games, I believe, found themselves left high and dry.

Combine that home market deterioration with the rise of Western development prominence and I think that Japanese developers, especially of the genres implied here, are seeing intense competition. I don't think that resorting to the Wii will completely solve their problems either: I think they're going to have to be more flexible and innovative in their development, something which I'd argue that Nintendo is also hoping Japanese developers rediscover in themselves (see: the story behind WiiWare, Nintendo's 8-bit-like bit Generations titles).

[GoldenPhoenix]

I think one problem with the JRPG is that they are still using elements in the game design that were originally implemented because of hardware bottlenecks (like random battles). It seems to be a genre that is caught in the past.

[Bill Aurion]

I think one problem with the JRPG is that they are still using elements in the game design that were originally implemented because of hardware bottlenecks (like random battles). It seems to be a genre that is caught in the past.

I remember getting into a big hoopla with Pale over this, don't start it up again! ='D

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Bring it back, I think I missed the hoopla.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I think one problem with the JRPG is that they are still using elements in the game design that were originally implemented because of hardware bottlenecks (like random battles). It seems to be a genre that is caught in the past.

I remember getting into a big hoopla with Pale over this, don't start it up again! ='D

And I missed it?!?!

[Morari]

Because some idiots derailed and killed the FF13 thread while I was typing this up I'll post this in a separate thread.

It seems to me that the japanese style of game design is dying out on the HD consoles. Even the games that do get made on them seem to be designed to look like western games. Where previously Square-Enix and co dominated the RPG scene now they've yielded to the likes of Bioware and Bethesda. The only genre that still seems to live is the Dynasty Warriors clone. The games that do come out fail critically and in the market. Of course anything that comes out is a retread of an idea from the previous gen but that's hardly a surprise. The gaming landscape on these platforms is becoming as brown and dull as the next-gen graphics themselves.

This is probably a misperception by me but when I look at store shelves for these systems everything is dull and uninteresting. Seems the only place where anything is still happening is on WiiWare.

Good. JRPGs tend to be rather boring, giving you little control over characters and ultimately presenting themselves as little more than glorified movies. When it comes down to Square, BioWare, Bethesda and other RPG-centric companies, it's no wonder that the freedom, decisions, and open-ended gameplay of Western RPGs  is finally beginning to dominate the landscape. It's only too bad the market as a whole didn't take notice sooner, maybe we'd still have Troika around if so. That's what happens when everyone pigeonholes themselves into consoles and relegates PC gaming. Fools.

[Kairon]

I think one problem with the JRPG is that they are still using elements in the game design that were originally implemented because of hardware bottlenecks (like random battles). It seems to be a genre that is caught in the past.

I think this is also a part of it...sadly.

[Adrock]

I think pap is pretty dead on about the genre being oversaturated.  They are a lot of RPGs and a lot of them are very similar.  I've gotten rather bored of them because the stories and settings are so damn similar.

Pap is dead on? I just said that right before he did. *grumble grumble*

They'll go away when consumers stop supporting these games. It's clearly starting. Infinite Undiscovery is about as by-the-numbers as JRPGs come and people responded by not giving a sh*t. Square Enix is probably glad Microsoft owns rights to it.

[Dirk Temporo]

Japanese style games going extinct?

I could never be that lucky, so I doubt it.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I think one problem with the JRPG is that they are still using elements in the game design that were originally implemented because of hardware bottlenecks (like random battles). It seems to be a genre that is caught in the past.

I think this is also a part of it...sadly.

I really hate the West vs Japan in RPGs. If only the they could blend the good ideas from both, we could get some really innovative games!

[Urkel]

I think one problem with the JRPG is that they are still using elements in the game design that were originally implemented because of hardware bottlenecks (like random battles). It seems to be a genre that is caught in the past.

I think this is also a part of it...sadly.

I really hate the West vs Japan in RPGs. If only the they could blend the good ideas from both, we could get some really innovative games!

Exactly. Somebody needs to make an RPG with the freedom of Western RPGs with the awesome battle system of a Tales-like game.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

They don't have to blend crap.

They just have to do what they do, BETTER, without doing what they usually do.

[GoldenPhoenix]

They don't have to blend crap.

They just have to do what they do, BETTER, without doing what they usually do.

LOL.

Does anyone know which was the first JRPG to actually show the enemy locations on screen?

[NWR_Lindy]

I agree with GP, it's cyclical.  The industry always chases hot genres, and ever since Halo blew up FPSes have been all the rage.  And there have been some good ones, but beyond the biggest of the biggest titles most people could care less.  It's the same with JRPGs.  There's just so much noise right now...all of these games look the same unless you're a genre afficionado who can tell them apart.  That's why you see RPGs like Fallout 3 getting a lot of attention, because they're taking a familiar genre but doing something a little different with it.  At least, different from most JRPGs that people see sitting on the shelves.

When's the last time you saw something super unique from Japan?  Outside of Nintendo, you got nothing.  That's why Nintendo sells so much; say what you will, but their games are truly unique.  For example, Soul Calibur IV, Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix, Tekken 6, and Street Fighter IV are all going to be amazing fighters, but who's going to buy all of them aside from genre geeks?  Also, what are they going to offer that will bring in new fans?  Probably not a lot.  That's Japan in a nutshell for me, giving the same game to the same fans.  That's cool, but it'll only take you so far when things gets stale after a few years.  Why did it take Nintendo to make a game like Super Smash Bros. Brawl?  Couldn't Namco have, theoretically, done a better job with that kind of brawler since fighting games are their forte?  I'm not saying replace Tekken 6 with Brawl, but why not release them alongside each other?  It's this thinking outside the box that Japan isn't doing right now.

[GoldenPhoenix]

OMG. Did I just see a post by Lindy I agree 100% with? ::faints::

[Kairon]

They don't have to blend crap.

They just have to do what they do, BETTER, without doing what they usually do.

I see what you did there.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Unintentional play on the words.

[Adrock]

When's the last time you saw something super unique from Japan?

No More Heroes. Madworld.

[GoldenPhoenix]

When's the last time you saw something super unique from Japan?

No More Heroes. Madworld.

I haven't played Persona 3 yet but it sounds pretty unique as well (70hrs or so of gameplay is intimidating!).

There are definately a few out there, but the bigger publishers like Square and Capcom have been playing things EXTREMELY safe for years now.

[Bill Aurion]

When's the last time you saw something super unique from the West?

Scribblenauts...That's really it...

[KDR_11k]

It's not the JRPGs I'm really missing, it seems like all kinds of genres the PS2 had are not present on the current gen. Though maybe they're still there, just with more brown and grimdark. Considering the examples for unique recent games from Japan were two ultra-violent games maybe that's what's happening.

[Ian Sane]

Well... many of these so-called "Japanese style games" were heavily dependent on a ravenous and unsustainable hardcore marketplace.

To be fair these types of games were popular for about 20 years.  It isn't like some fad bubble that was going to pop any day now.

I wonder if the increase in popularity of strategy RPGs is because that's a method of turn based battling that has more logic to it.  It plays more like a board game like Chess.  It's a little more than just a grindfest.  Is it a sub-genre or is it really just where the genre naturally is headed.  Was Super Mario Bros. of a different sub-genre than Donkey Kong or was that just the natural evolution of platformers?

But isn't Japan just very conformist?  So once videogames as they were ceased to be popular no one liked them anymore?  It's very different than what we're used to here.  It's like everyone likes something or no one does.  No niches or demographics.  I'm just going by bits and pieces I've heard here and there though so I might completely out-to-lunch on that.

[KDR_11k]

Naah, it's a grindfest with everything else conveniently removed so you can focus on grinding. Disgaea was boasting that you could go up to level 1000 or so and then you could remake the character to make him even better and get him to level 1000 again and do that a few times to get the ultimate character, then you got weapons that have to be levelled by beating floors in a random dungeon for them and if you level them to 100 they transform into something new that's level 1 again so you get to level it to 100 again and then it transforms...
I think I got sick of that when my best characters were around level 15 or so. I can't even imagine levelling past, say, 40-50. The levelling is no faster than in other games so every level still takes some time to get and it's not like "hey I gained 10 levels in one battle".

[Peachylala]

When's the last time you saw something super unique from the West?

From Europe, I've discovered awesomeness of NitRome! =D

And some random indie freeware games. And World Of Goo.

Outside of Nintendo, you got nothing.  That's why Nintendo sells so much; say what you will, but their games are truly unique.  For example, Soul Calibur IV, Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix, Tekken 6, and Street Fighter IV are all going to be amazing fighters, but who's going to buy all of them aside from genre geeks?  Also, what are they going to offer that will bring in new fans?  Probably not a lot.

Exactly, not a whole lot. The only traditional fighter I've ever played and liked to peices is Soul Calibur II. I <3 <3 <3 Talim and Ivy.

Talim for next smash bros plz thk u Ninty. =3

[KDR_11k]

After a bit of thinking I've reached the conclusion that it's simply colorful and cartoony games that are missing on the HD systems. When you look at a store shelf it's all brown-gray realism stuff.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Indeed.  These non-casuals don't go for the candy-like visuals.

[Peachylala]

Castle Crushers is the only 360 game that was colorful, but that's a download.

Hell, Duck Tales on the NES is more colorful then GTAIV. =/

[Bill Aurion]

Castle Crushers is the only 360 game that was colorful, but that's a download.

Oy, oy, there's actually a few games that are quite vivid...Eternal Sonata, Viva Pinata, Tales of Vesperia, etc...They ARE in the strict minority, though...

[Peachylala]

Which is exactly why I didn't name them. I'm not a huge fan of RPGs (excluding some... Secret of Mana, Tales of Symphonia, Mother 3, The Mario RPGs...).

Can ya' name the colorful games on the 360, Bill? Ones that are not RPGs?

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Yeah, colorful ones that SELL.

[Ymeegod]

I would skip over Persona 3 and go right to 4 (there's issues with 3--like no control over other party members and the story is better in 4 as well).
 
They did fix random fights, usually the enemy appears on the map and it's your choice to engage (minus the boss battles). 

I know alot of people bitch about Turn-based games but forget SW Knight of the Old Republic is turn-based made by Bioware :0.   

[Bill Aurion]

Which is exactly why I didn't name them. I'm not a huge fan of RPGs (excluding some... Secret of Mana, Tales of Symphonia, Mother 3, The Mario RPGs...).

Can ya' name the colorful games on the 360, Bill? Ones that are not RPGs?

But you didn't even SAY colorful NON-RPGs!  Changing the argument is for-bid-den! 

[Smash_Brother]

I think JRPGs flooded in because, until the days of HD gaming, they were REALLY easy to make. A turn-based battle system removes 98% of the player doing something to break the combat of the game by accident, meaning you're basically just managing scripting, data and assets.

The real problem is that JRPGs (and largely RPGs in general) exist on the back of a good story, and I haven't seen too many JRPG stories as of late that weren't horribly cliched, poorly translated or both.

[NWR_Lindy]

After a bit of thinking I've reached the conclusion that it's simply colorful and cartoony games that are missing on the HD systems. When you look at a store shelf it's all brown-gray realism stuff.

Ratchet & Clank: Tools of Destruction isn't grey-brown realism.  Neither is Viva Pinata, Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts, LittleBigPlanet, Hot Shots Golf: Out of Bounds, or Fable II.  There aren't many "cartoony" games, but I think it's unfair to stereotype the entire 360 and PS3 libraries as clones of Gears of War and Killzone.

[KDR_11k]

I think JRPGs flooded in because, until the days of HD gaming, they were REALLY easy to make. A turn-based battle system removes 98% of the player doing something to break the combat of the game by accident, meaning you're basically just managing scripting, data and assets.

"just"... Assets are the biggest money drain in game development. Game mechanics are dirt cheap to implement.

Lindy, a list like that is too small. If it mattered then people wouldn't complain that the GC had no "mature" games, the Wii had no "hardcore" games, etc.

[Nick DiMola]

I would skip over Persona 3 and go right to 4 (there's issues with 3--like no control over other party members and the story is better in 4 as well).
 
They did fix random fights, usually the enemy appears on the map and it's your choice to engage (minus the boss battles). 

3 is definitely better. There weren't random battles in 3 either, so that hasn't changed at all in 4.

They are different games, each of which deserves play. So many aspects of 3 are stronger, but I'll save this for my second podcast.

[Dirk Temporo]

When's the last time you saw something super unique from Japan?

No More Heroes. Madworld.

Both trying their damndest to be as western as possible.

I think this speaks volumes.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Perhaps this is a dumb question but what exactly makes a game "Western" and what makes a game "Japanese style".

[Dirk Temporo]

That is a very good question, but unfortunately, in much the same way that I can't describe what makes music metal, I can't describe what makes a game western or Japanese.