Retail version of the title not likely either. Update: Cancellation due to size limit on WiiWare
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/24592
Super Meat Boy developers Team Meat have announced on their Twitter page that the WiiWare version of their title, the first platform for which the game was announced, has been cancelled. The game has seen many delays due to WiiWare's size restrictions, forcing the team to move the game to Xbox Live Arcade and PC where it has received critical success.
In addition, the team confirms that while things are looking grim, they are interested in creating a retail version of the title but this seems unlikely at the moment.
Update: Team Meat have told Joystiq the reasons behind the cancellation of the WiiWare release. It comes down to the fact the the game will not fit within the 40MB size limit for WiiWare titles.
Designer Edmund McMillen said, "We knew of the limits early on but overestimated our ability to get Nintendo to raise the file size. It's lame that there is a 40MB cap on WiiWare games... but it was our fault for blindly assuming this cap wasn't set in stone, and we are sorry for that."
Were the game to be released on WiiWare, it would have no leaderboards, Dark World levels or downloadable content. Music tracks would be limited to six in total, and boss fights and cutscenes would have no audio. Team Meat were not wiling to compromise the game content found they were unable to compile a satisfactory version that fir within the size limit.
McMillen confirms Nintendo's strict policy on WiiWare size adding, "Probably, honestly we got so lost in making a cool game we totally forgot about how strict the limitations for the Wii were, we just wanted to make something huge and the game got a little out of control."
Can I...can I at least get a PSN version?
ATTENTION: we have no beef with ps3, we cant ever do a ps3 version because of our contract with MS.
Not sure about the Wii one, but the original SNES cartridge was 2 Megabytes (16 megabits).
Not sure about the Wii one, but the original SNES cartridge was 2 Megabytes (16 megabits).
So, Super Mario All-Stars, which holds four platforming games (plus the "Battle Mode" - the original Mario Bros.), roughly 200 levels, one of the greatest platformers of all time (SMB3), along with a wide variety of level design, music, power-ups, enemies, etc., etc... fit in less than half of the WiiWare file restriction?
Curious, how big is the All Stars + Super Mario World version? :D
Can someone explain to me why the limit even exists? Are they just so cheap they aren't even willing to pay for servers or something?There's no official answer, but it appears to be a technical limitation of the system, which seems to download the game into the RAM before saving it to the internal flash. Even if the limit could be raised, it wouldn't be very much, since the system has so little internal memory.
Can someone remind us all again how big the entire Super Mario All Stars ROM is?I see your point, but companies shouldn't have to heavily compress their games just to fit within an arbitrary size limit.
About 1/20th of the limit.
Just for those actually wondering, SMAS + SMW is about 2.5 Megabytes.
Can someone remind us all again how big the entire Super Mario All Stars ROM is?I see your point, but companies shouldn't have to heavily compress their games just to fit within an arbitrary size limit.
Eh, maybe, but the size limit could have been easily prevented if Nintendo had any foresight in designing the Wii, whereas back in 1993 it would cost a lot of money to use a cartridge larger than 2MB.
Figures. Nintendo puts out a digital download service infamously unfriendly to small developers (between the file size limit, the lack of marketing, and until recently the lack of demos), a small developer finds it's not worth it to make a bastardized version of the game for that service, and naturally people blame the developer. Guys, we've been hearing complaints from small developers about the problems with WiiWare for years. Remember when Telltale Games was complaining about the many issues with WiiWare when they were releasing Monkey Island (they even named a location in the game after one such problem)? Yeah, they saw that WiiWare wasn't going to work out, so they took their game to a service where the console maker actually gives a damn if they succeed. Oh yeah, let's blame the developers for Nintendo's lack of interest in putting out a service that suits anyone else's needs than their own.
A Wii dev kit is $2,000, which is super cheap as far as dev kits go.
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Seriously people, stop trying to paint Nintendo as the main victim here. They have made many mistakes that have affected many developers, and Team Meat is just another cautionary tale for everyone to take note of.
So, wait... You're seriously chastising Team Meat for deciding to add a bunch of stuff to make their game better, something we all hope for, if not flat-out expect, from every decent developer.
Game isn't better if I can't play it.
They announced it as a WiiWare game, then bitched about it being too big but saying they would make it fit, now basically telling Wii owners "F*** you, we don't want to put the effort in". They knew the cap size but chose to ignore it because they thought Nintendo would give them (some third party developer that no one had even heard of before this game) permission to go above it.It's unfair to say they didn't "put the effort in" because by all counts, they did everything to make their game the best it could be. I'm aware that the development team overstepped their boundaries due, in part, by poor management. However, they made the game the best they could and they shouldn't compromise their game just to fit a file size limit. That's something Nintendo would never do themselves so, in the interest of fairness, they shouldn't be imposing that on other developers. Of course, it's their system to do as they please but ultimately, the people who bought their console are losing out on a great game. This is less about who is to blame (though I would place it more on Nintendo's shoulders for reasons already stated) and more about Wii owners who don't get to play the game on the Wii.
Microsoft is determined to take Sony down no matter what the cost, that is why they let Konami go up the cap limit on XBLA for the game.Obviously. Who said that wasn't the reason? The point is that Microsoft increased the limit because there was no reason to impose it for a game that only helped their platform which inevitably means Microsoft makes more money. There was no downside to increasing the limit. In Super Meat Boy's case, Nintendo basically hands Microsoft a game that has a lot of positive buzz surrounding it. Who loses? Nintendo and Wii owners. How does that help Nintendo at all? Nintendo should want this game on their platform. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Game isn't better if I can't play it.Except you can play it... just not on the Wii.
That's something Nintendo would never do themselves so, in the interest of fairness, they shouldn't be imposing that on other developers.
There was no downside to increasing the limit. In Super Meat Boy's case, Nintendo basically hands Microsoft a game that has a lot of positive buzz surrounding it. Who loses? Nintendo and Wii owners. How does that help Nintendo at all? Nintendo should want this game on their platform. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Team Meat knew the limit before they started the game and admit that they just ignored it on purpose, so it is easy to see why they are to blame.
The Zelda team would develop the game knowing they had 8.7 GB to work with
Adrock, I was referring to them not wanting to put the effort to fitting it in 40 MB, especially since they had previously said they could do it (it would just feature less music).I get what you're saying, but it still makes no sense to me. The only reason the game went over 40MB (according to the internetz, the XBLA version is 90.4MB) is because Team Meat added a bunch of stuff and made a better game. You're basically saying, "Put even more effort into development by taking content out to make a shittier overall game." Then, people would be pissed off that Super Meat Boy is worse on WiiWare than it is on Xbox Live Arcade rather than being glad they even got the game. Even if you wanted the same 40MB game on both 360 and Wii, you're still asking for a shittier game.
The comparison to Super Mario All-Stars is, frankly, asinine. That game is rendered at 240i and upscaled to 480p by the Wii emulator. Super Meat Boy is a similarly expansive game with art assets rendered at 480p (and even higher on the HD platforms). The music is also quite a bit more complex; I don't know if it is already programmed in MIDI (with more channels and instruments than SNES could produce) or would have to be scripted in that format for WiiWare, which could be a very complex process.
All-Stars was also coded by a huge team of veteran game developers at Nintendo, some of whom were probably involved in the hardware design. Team Meat is a tiny group of independent developers using stock Wii development kits. They are not necessarily experts in file size optimization, nor should such expertise be necessary in any reasonable development environment since the advent of disc-based media and digital distribution for a freaking 2D platformer.
Except you can play it... just not on the Wii.
You own a PC, I'm assuming? Play it there in its full glory. Otherwise, you're simply limiting yourself by insisting that the Wii receive a gutted release.
But they weren't trying to make a WiiWare game; they were trying to make a game. Initially it was targeted at WiiWare, but it grew beyond what they could do there and so they focused on the platforms on which it would work. They weren't doing it for us, or for Nintendo; they were simply trying to make the best game they could. Stop portraying this as some kind of insult to Nintendo. It's not like Nintendo funded the development, or gave them a devkit for free. Team Meat owes Nintendo nothing, and they just did what they did because it was the best option available to them from a business and creative point of view. Stop taking it so personally.
Just throwing it out there that the 40MB limit is not explicitly hardware-based. New Wiis come with a intro video channel that's far larger than 40MB.Good point - however, is this something that's due to the nature of the program itself (i.e.: the fact that it's pretty much just a video)?
It would have been nice of them to announce this when people still had a chance to buy it on sale on Steam for $3.75.
To be fair, you don't have to download the video (the download process is probably why the limit exists), and you are supposed to delete the video after you watch it.Just throwing it out there that the 40MB limit is not explicitly hardware-based. New Wiis come with a intro video channel that's far larger than 40MB.Good point - however, is this something that's due to the nature of the program itself (i.e.: the fact that it's pretty much just a video)?
To be fair, you don't have to download the video (the download process is probably why the limit exists), and you are supposed to delete the video after you watch it.
To be fair, you don't have to download the video (the download process is probably why the limit exists), and you are supposed to delete the video after you watch it.
This brings up an interesting thing as well - the Netflix channel. Obviously, the movies that are streamed/downloaded to the Wii are over 40MB. Perhaps the limit doesn't apply to video for whatever reason?
To be fair, you don't have to download the video (the download process is probably why the limit exists), and you are supposed to delete the video after you watch it.
This brings up an interesting thing as well - the Netflix channel. Obviously, the movies that are streamed/downloaded to the Wii are over 40MB. Perhaps the limit doesn't apply to video for whatever reason?
I'd imagine they coded the program to efficiently stream video within the Wii's hardware capabilities. When I decide to skip around in a movie, Netflix has to buffer even if I only skipped a little.
they decided to apply external pressure to the situation by making a great game that does not it within the (arbitrary) limitations.
If it were arbitrary, Nintendo would have changed it by now.
If it were arbitrary, Nintendo would have changed it by now. I can't see how staying strict with it benefits them in any way, which leads me to believe they can't change it, or at least can't change it without a lot of work.
If it were arbitrary, Nintendo would have changed it by now. I can't see how staying strict with it benefits them in any way, which leads me to believe they can't change it, or at least can't change it without a lot of work.
Maybe you haven't noticed, but Nintendo is historically famous for doing stupid things for no particular reason. They don't need to see any benefits in order to stick to their guns. Maybe it's an issue of pride? Fixing a mistake first requires you to admit that you made a mistake.
If it were arbitrary, Nintendo would have changed it by now.
Just like Friend Codes, right?
The developers thought that the 40 MB size limitation for Wiiware games was too strict. Since they are not in the position to change Nintendo's policy internally, they decided to apply external pressure to the situation by making a great game that does not it within the (arbitrary) limitations. I'm not sure Team Meat expected Nintendo to necessarily give them an exclusive exception, rather that they would change the policy for ALL developers. If enough companies wish to release high profile downloadable games on the Wii that are over 40 MB, it's reasonable to expect Nintendo to change their policy because they stand to profit so much from changing the rules.Nintendo gave no indication that we know of that they intended to change anything. So Team Meat made a decision to develop a game they had no indication would ever have any chance of coming out.
I also think that Team Meat must have spoken to someone at Nintendo who at least implied that the limitation could be changed at some point in development (probably early on). That's just a hunch though.I strongly suspect that if Nintendo had done so Team Meat would have used that as a defense for their actions already. The fact that they have made no mention of such a discussion despite all the flak they are getting for this indicates to me that no such conversation took place.
But they developed the entire thing based on the hard requirement that Nintendo changed the rules, and then had to scramble to totally re-design the game at the last minute. I don't see how any half-competent business could put themselves in such a position, at least not ones outside of a field like law where changes are inevitable.See, the reality of the situation isn't anything like the picture you've painted. Team Meat developed the game knowing that they had 3 completely viable alternatives: XBLA, PC and Mac. Nintendo doesn't owe them anything and vice versa. The development team decided, instead, to make the best game they could knowing it could still be released and still offer the game to Nintendo who declined. So be it. I don't see how Team Meat is playing the victim card. They apologized to Wii owners but they're hardly licking their wounds. The game is out, they're making a profit on the game, Microsoft if making a profit on the game and the only company who isn't is Nintendo.
The game is out, they're making a profit on the game, Microsoft if making a profit on the game and the only company who isn't is Nintendo.This is true, but Nintendo is making a profit on everything else (WiiWare or not), and any Wii owner jhas to have internet access for Steam. So Nintendo isn't missing out of the profits, just the game itself.
