Author Topic: Disney & Sony make up!! Spider-Man back in the MCU!!!.... For now.  (Read 28596 times)

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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Our collective nightmare came true.... Disney got greedy, Sony got bold
all of us suffer the consequences....

Feige and Holland no more  :'(

https://deadline.com/2019/08/kevin-feige-spider-man-franchise-exit-disney-sony-dispute-avengers-endgame-captain-america-winter-soldier-tom-rothman-bob-iger-1202672545/

hopefully they come back to the table to work this out and hopefully there was already a deal in place for Spidey3....

Venom 2, Morbius and anything else Sony does with Marvel characters will have to BOMB to get Sony to cave and agree to share the cost and profits. Or Disney will just have to flex it's piggy bank and buy Sony Pictures. LOL

Quote from: from article
Sources said there are two more Spider-Man films in the works that are meant to have director Jon Watts and Tom Holland front and center. Unless something dramatic happens, Feige won’t be the lead creative producer of those pictures.


There is a lot of webbing here, but it all comes down to money, and it’s easy to understand why both sides refused to give ground. Disney asked that future Spider-Man films be a 50/50 co-financing arrangement between the studios, and there were discussions that this might extend to other films in the Spider-Man universe. Sony turned that offer down flat, and I don’t believe they even came back to the table to figure out a compromise. Led by Tom Rothman and Tony Vinciquerra, Sony just simply didn’t want to share its biggest franchise. Sony proposed keeping the arrangement going under the current terms where Marvel receives in the range of 5% of first dollar gross, sources said. Disney refused.

Hopefully they reach a compromise before Spidey 3 would start production... or whatever his next planned appearance/cameo was.

25/75 Cost/profits split?
maybe Disney can slip a little clause in there to eventually just get the rights back.
I think this was just the start of an ugly negotiating process that will HOPEFULLY end with an agreement to bring Spidey back home where he belongs.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2019, 07:29:49 PM by BlackNMild2k1 »

Offline Adrock

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2019, 04:44:04 PM »
Prediction: Disney will overpay in the short-term just to not deal with Sony anymore.

Offline nickmitch

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2019, 05:43:12 PM »
So, from what I read, Disney made an offer and Sony declined because they wanted to keep the deal as-is?  Doesn't sound like they negotiated much.  I guess we'll see how much influence Feige has over the company as a whole if he can get a deal a done.  I'm with Adrock, however, in thinking Disney will just overpay, which is honestly fair, since Disney retains the merchandising rights.

I can understand where both are coming from.  Especially with Sony now having the "keys to the kingdom" with a Spider-Man template that works and a Venom spin-off that also worked.  The problem is, of course, that they could end up shooting themselves in the foot by making a Spider-Man movie without a lot of the characters in the last movie (which could lose the audiences) or worse, making a bunch of bad movies that lose money.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2019, 06:09:02 PM »
Reportedly, the previous deal was that Sony kept 95-100% of the box office revenue from the Spidey MCU films, while Disney got a similar split for the merchandising. Disney wanted to renegotiate the deal so they go 50% of the box office revenue, and Sony said "nah". And good on them for doing so.

Disney had no bargaining power for such a split at this point. Yeah, Endgame is the biggest movie of all time, not accounting for inflation. Well, guess what? All the characters people actually care about are either gone or on their way out...except Spider-Man. Being at your peak means everything that follows is all downhill from there.

Meanwhile, Sony's been on an upward trajectory with Spidey considering the critical success of Into the Spider-verse and the commercial success of Far From Home & Venom. Sony had all the power in that negotiation, and it's good to see Disney lose for once.

Now watch all the Spidey books get mysteriously cancelled from Marvel Comics after all the characters are sent to an alternate dimension or something.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 06:22:25 PM by broodwars »
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2019, 07:13:36 PM »
Disney over reached probably expecting Sony to counter with something in the middle.
Sony instead reset the board back to the current status quo, got up and walked away....

I bet Disney will re-approach Sony and offer something more in the middle
to which hopefully Sony won't get up and walk away again, but instead counter with something close to halfway between that (15/85 split + milestone bonuses + production pay)

Lord Feige will pull a few strings behind the scenes and will make this happen quietly.... much like him getting James Gunn rehired.
We won't hear anything about it until we get that Spidey3 announcement at CC2021 for Phase 5

Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2019, 07:21:21 PM »
One other thing to consider is that Sony recently bought Insomiac Games who did the superb Spider-Man PS4 game so maybe Sony wants to have more sway in regards to the video game franchise with the rights to Spider-Man.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2019, 07:23:09 PM »
All the characters people actually care about are either gone or on their way out...except Spider-Man.
Yeah, I’m going to need you to show your work. Black Panther, for example, is the highest grossing solo superhero film.

Sony had no idea what the **** it was doing with Spider-Man before Marvel brought the character into the MCU. Into the Spider-Verse was excellent, but until Sony shows some consistency, it’s still the studio that had electric eels close a man’s tooth gap and give him the power to create underwear.

Sure, Sony can take it’s chances. Should it though? I still think it should and will sell high. No use spending the next five years fucking everything up again then having to sell low due to incompetence. Marvel won’t throw Sony another bone.

Offline broodwars

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2019, 07:39:03 PM »
All the characters people actually care about are either gone or on their way out...except Spider-Man.
Yeah, I’m going to need you to show your work. Black Panther, for example, is the highest grossing solo superhero film.

Assuming those box office results are real. Consider that we just had a story today where a whistleblower revealed that Disney's allegedly been inflating their parks & resorts revenue numbers for years.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/disney-whistleblower-told-sec-the-company-inflated-revenue-for-years-2019-08-19

I saw stories online of people seeing "sold out" empty theaters of Captain Marvel during its first week of release. Putting those stories together, I'd like to see Disney prove its ticket sales.

Also, both Black Panther & Captain Marvel were riding the coattails of the Infinity War Saga. I highly doubt that the next installments of those films will do anywhere near as well without people checking them out just to make sure they weren't missing crucial bits of information for the one plot thread the entire MCU focused on for 10 years.

Quote
Sony had no idea what the **** it was doing with Spider-Man before Marvel brought the character into the MCU. Into the Spider-Verse was excellent, but until Sony shows some consistency, it’s still the studio that had electric eels close a man’s tooth gap and give him the power to create underwear.

No disagreements here on that. Just saying, Sony has what Disney needs. They have the advantage in the negotiations right now considering where the Spider-Man IP is RIGHT NOW. Meanwhile, the MCU is both at its strongest & weakest, with everything depending on whether Disney can make people care about a universe now built around the C-list characters (and the Guardians).

Now, if the next round of Spidey-verse films tank, that will change the game once again and we'll probably see the same thing happen that led to Spidey being shoe-horned into the MCU in the 1st place.

In the meantime, I hope to see an actual Spider-Man film instead of Iron Man & His Amazing Friends.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 07:40:48 PM by broodwars »
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2019, 07:58:07 PM »
I'm tellin ya, Feige's days are numbered. What a huge loss for the MCU.

Offline Adrock

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2019, 08:19:59 PM »
Also, both Black Panther & Captain Marvel were riding the coattails of the Infinity War Saga.
Again, I'm going to need you to show your work. A lot of people skip the solo films and only watch the crossovers. Both Captain Marvel and especially Black Panther were milestones for marginalized groups. People showed up because both films were culturally relevant. There was someone on this very message board who didn't know "smile more" was street harassment women deal with every day. It was important for people to go out and support these movies. To reduce their success to "riding the coattails of the Infinity War Saga" is hella ignorant, man.
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Meanwhile, the MCU is both at its strongest & weakest, with everything depending on whether Disney can make people care about a universe now built around the C-list characters (and the Guardians).
Marvel laid the foundation of the MCU with C-list characters and the Hulk who was easily in the worst Phase 1 movie. No one cared about Iron Man before Robert Downey Jr. played him. You brought up the Guardians of the Galaxy who were on an even lower tier than the other non-Hulk Avengers.



Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2019, 08:39:25 PM »
Who's broodwars?

Offline broodwars

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2019, 09:00:05 PM »
Who's broodwars?

There is no broodwars. Only Zuul.
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Offline nickmitch

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2019, 09:01:39 PM »
Also, both Black Panther & Captain Marvel were riding the coattails of the Infinity War Saga.
Again, I'm going to need you to show your work. A lot of people skip the solo films and only watch the crossovers. Both Captain Marvel and especially Black Panther were milestones for marginalized groups. People showed up because both films were culturally relevant. There was someone on this very message board who didn't know "smile more" was street harassment women deal with every day. It was important for people to go out and support these movies. To reduce their success to "riding the coattails of the Infinity War Saga" is hella ignorant, man.

Yeah, most of the people I know and others I socialize with online were excited to see a Black Panther movie.  These same people held Blade in high regard and were genuinely excited when BP was announced.  If you're in certain social media circles, you also saw tonnes of people dressed up to see the movie, and not just on opening weekend, either.

Quote
Quote
Meanwhile, the MCU is both at its strongest & weakest, with everything depending on whether Disney can make people care about a universe now built around the C-list characters (and the Guardians).
Marvel laid the foundation of the MCU with C-list characters and the Hulk who was easily in the worst Phase 1 movie. No one cared about Iron Man before Robert Downey Jr. played him*. You brought up the Guardians of the Galaxy who were on an even lower tier than the other non-Hulk Avengers.


*Except for Ghostface Killah
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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2019, 09:09:08 PM »
 Ugh Sony. If they can't work out any sort of agreement with Marvel I just won't watch the next movie. It'll be Ghostbusters 2016(I did end up watching it, and didn't hate it, but well after the box office period)
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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2019, 09:32:32 PM »
Marvel should just release Deadpool 3 at the same time as the next spider-man movie. Tom Holland should be in it, but as a character named "Kid" who should be suffering from an Existential crisis.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2019, 10:38:09 PM »
Hmmm..... I guess it was just Disney being Scrooge McFuckSony afterall....



Hopefully Feige can talk some sense into whoever was negotiating on the side of Disney, and get this **** done.
I want my Holland MCU Spidey 3 (can we finally get a good Spider-man trilogy!?) and I also want my Spidey cameo's with Deadpool and whoever else SM frequents in the comics.

I wonder what Sony countered with besides "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

edit: well... I guess theirs two sides to every story



we need another SONY EMAIL LEAK to get to the truth... but let it also include the audio recordings for these negotiations.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 10:44:45 PM by BlackNMild2k1 »

Offline pokepal148

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2019, 11:17:03 PM »
Nah, Disney email leak sounds much more juicy.

Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2019, 09:55:45 AM »
So Spiderman has left the MCU? After the cliffhanger ending? Sony can't make Spiderman movies either?

Offline broodwars

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2019, 10:27:22 AM »
So Spiderman has left the MCU? After the cliffhanger ending? Sony can't make Spiderman movies either?

Sony can make as many Spider-Man films as they want. They could even continue from Far From Home if they wanted, since that was a Sony film. However, they would not be able to use the iconography, characters, or storylines from the Disney Marvel films.
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Offline Stratos

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2019, 02:19:42 PM »
This obviously ins't over, but until then I will not be spending any money on anything related to Sony if I can help it.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2019, 03:44:24 PM »
This obviously ins't over, but until then I will not be spending any money on anything related to Sony if I can help it.

Why not? Disney is the one in the wrong here. Sony & Disney had a mutually good thing going until Disney decided to act like the monopoly they are.
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Offline Stratos

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2019, 04:10:02 PM »
I'm not trying to justify Disney, but there certainly appears to be spin by Sony's side to make them sound more in the wrong here. I'm saying it isn't over because I have no doubt the dialogue will carry on eventually.
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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2019, 07:28:43 PM »
Imagine if we still had to worry about fucking Wand of Gamelon games from Panasonic.

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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2019, 07:57:21 PM »
Screw Sony. This whole licensing nightmare was started by their greedy anti-competitive lawyers. Spider-man has been kidnapped again. This is a bad faith transaction. You should never have to license your own character from another company. It's not Disney's fault Marvel and Pixar were able to own at the box office and make them into a powerhouse. People forget Disney was doing poorly right before Pirates of the Caribbean. I remember when Disney had devolved into a shitty Full House quality made for tv movie house.

People think Disney has this crazy monopoly on cinema, but that isn't really true. Comcast and Warner Bros are equally big and people better watch out for Netflix.

CBS and Viacom merged, but I got my money on Netflix buying both up.  Amazon is huge too. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Verizon pulled some **** in the near future.

Lionsgate is a thing. I wouldn't doubt if in the next few years Lionsgate bought out MGM. I was joking(because of the MGM Lion), but then I looked it up and it's in the news

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/21/lionsgate-still-wants-to-sell-starz-to-cbs-mgm-deal-logical-follow-up.html

« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 08:02:25 PM by ThePerm »
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2019, 08:18:20 PM »
Screw Sony. This whole licensing nightmare was started by their greedy anti-competitive lawyers. Spider-man has been kidnapped again. This is a bad faith transaction. You should never have to license your own character from another company.

You should have to license your own character from another company when you're so incompetent in the 90s that you sell the rights to them to that company to avoid bankruptcy.

I have no sympathy for Disney on this matter. Disney purchasing Marvel doesn't negate the stupid **** that Marvel did back in the 90s.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2019, 08:19:19 PM »
I would like Spider-Man back in Marvel’s hands because Sony is weirdly creatively bankrupt when it comes to live-action Spider-Man, and I don’t really know if it’s worth seeing the franchise tank for a few years before Sony decides to sell it back. That said, It isn’t Sony’s fault Marvel made a bad deal in the 90s because it grossly misunderstood its own market.

Also, I thought Netflix is losing money. I’d verify that and google it, but 🤷‍♀️
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 08:21:26 PM by Adrock »

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2019, 08:57:58 PM »
ITT: Sony should be rewarded for taking advantage of a company when they were down, but screw Disney for giving Marvel what everyone at the time thought was an insane deal.

Weird.
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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2019, 09:16:55 PM »
Remember that when Colombia and MGM did the deals with Marvel it was the 80s and Marvel was the little company being ransacked. How about a history lesson.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-mar-02-fi-13115-story.html

Basically a big bully stole Marvels lunch so Marvel became friends with another bully named Disney to even things out.

More complicated. Marvel did a deal with a small studio CarolCo who was purchased by MGM. MGM had complicated film deals with Columbia who is owned by Sony because of James Bond and because Marvel was going out of business after being bought by Toy Biz after the Comic Book Crash of the mid 90s it needed some quick cash. Basically the plotline of Mean Streets. More complicated Marvel was bought out by Roger Cormans company New World which went bankrupt on it's own and IT sold the rights to other companies before selling Marvel off to other people.


« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 10:01:24 PM by ThePerm »
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2019, 09:24:34 PM »
To be fair, Marvel (and by Marvel, I mean individuals at Marvel who are no longer there) was a huge part of the reason the market crashed in the 90s.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2019, 09:36:33 PM »
To be fair, Marvel (and by Marvel, I mean individuals at Marvel who are no longer there) was a huge part of the reason the market crashed in the 90s.

And on THAT subject, I highly recommend that you check out the extensive 13-part video essay SFDebris did on the death of the Comics Industry in the 90s. It's excellent.

https://sfdebris.com/videos/special/comic.php
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2019, 11:33:23 PM »
Apparently Sony made an official statement

https://io9.gizmodo.com/spider-man-showdown-sony-releases-an-official-statemen-1837438904/amp

Blame is on Disney not wanting Feige to be spread too thin working on properties that Disney doesn't own (without sufficient compensation).
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 12:38:36 AM by BlackNMild2k1 »



Offline ThePerm

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2019, 12:21:49 AM »
"Much of today’s news about Spider-Man has mischaracterized recent discussions about Kevin Feige’s involvement in the franchise. We are disappointed, but respect Disney’s decision not to have him continue as a lead producer of our next live action Spider-Man film. We hope this might change in the future, but understand that the many new responsibilities that Disney has given him—including all their newly added Marvel properties—do not allow time for him to work on IP they do not own. Kevin is terrific and we are grateful for his help and guidance and appreciate the path he has helped put us on, which we will continue."

Now they're asserting that Marvel Disney doesn't own Spider-man. That could be libelous. That could be something you can sue over. Also, contains an Orwellian narrative trying to minimize Fiege's involvement. Obviously Bullshit. 60% of Spider-man Homecoming's world building was done inside Civil War and End game.  In copyright law film rights are the ability to produce a derivative work based on an Intellectual property. Marvel owns the intellectual property Sony merely has the film rights. They should watch their words. From what I understand is that the wording is "Exclusive License for Film Rights" I don't know if that is the wording for real or not, but that would mean Sony is the only OTHER studio that could make a spider-man film. You don't have to license things to yourself or your subsidiary. Theoretically they could just make their own Spider-man movie.

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Offline broodwars

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2019, 12:34:34 AM »
"Much of today’s news about Spider-Man has mischaracterized recent discussions about Kevin Feige’s involvement in the franchise. We are disappointed, but respect Disney’s decision not to have him continue as a lead producer of our next live action Spider-Man film. We hope this might change in the future, but understand that the many new responsibilities that Disney has given him—including all their newly added Marvel properties—do not allow time for him to work on IP they do not own. Kevin is terrific and we are grateful for his help and guidance and appreciate the path he has helped put us on, which we will continue."

Now they're asserting that Marvel Disney doesn't own Spider-man. That could be libelous. That could be something you can sue over. Also, contains an Orwellian narrative trying to minimize Fiege's involvement. Obviously Bullshit. 60% of Spider-man Homecoming's world building was done inside Civil War and End game.  In copyright law film rights are the ability to produce a derivative work based on an Intellectual property. Marvel owns the intellectual property Sony merely has the film rights. They should watch their words. From what I understand is that the wording is "Exclusive License for Film Rights" I don't know if that is the wording for real or not, but that would mean Sony is the only OTHER studio that could make a spider-man film. You don't have to license things to yourself or your subsidiary. Theoretically they could just make their own Spider-man movie.

OK, dude? Simmer down. Sony's clearly referring to the fact that Disney doesn't own the Sony Marvel films, and they're using "IP" as a shorthand. When you're making ME look well-adjusted and tempered by comparison, there's something wrong going on.

If Disney thought they had ANY legal rights to make Spidey films, do you REALLY think they'd be dealing with Sony AT ALL at this point? They're an entertainment juggernaut on the verge of becoming a monopoly (if they aren't one already). They have all the money in the world to have a big legal fight over it if they really wanted to push the issue.

But they aren't, because Marvel in the 90s made some really, REALLY stupid deals to get out of bankruptcy, the kind of deals akin to Harmony Gold essentially buying the Macross worldwide rights in perpetuity back in the 80s (and only recently having to renew them).
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2019, 12:48:15 AM »
I really curious what the counter offers from Sony were....

I get that Disney making Sony's highest grossing movie ever gave Disney plenty of reason to want to share in that success and get a fair share of the profits, but at the same time, I believe Disney also got to USE Spider-man in any other of it's MCU movies to which Sony has no share of anything at all.

Maybe increasing that initial share, and increasing the payout at milestones and then a bonus share increase over a certain milestone dollar amount....
I don't really know what the original agreement was, but Disney has to be reasonable in the demand for more shares of the profit (regardless of how much of the work Marvel and Feige are doing for these movies - all of it)
Sony has to realize that while they on good faith can't use the same Spidey in their venomverse while he is actively part of the MCU, they are still literally sitting back and writing a check to Marvel Studios to do a job and then sitting back and watching the profits roll in many times over said investment. the person doing the work wanting extra kickbacks is to be expected.

I've got my fingers crossed that they work something out before the next cameo/movie for Spidey is due to start production. Everything was going so smooth in the MCU too... I guess it had to get a fucked up at some point.

Offline broodwars

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2019, 12:52:49 AM »
So, I'm going to ask one simple question that hasn't been asked yet: does it really MATTER if Feige doesn't executive produce the Sony Spidey films? Producers in general tend to be concerned with the acquisition and allocation of the funds and resources that go into a film. Yeah, they CAN be involved with the more frontline matters like editing and whatnot, but they don't have to be. The big concerns of any film would be the director and writers, who have the most direct impact on the quality of the film's foundation.

So long as Sony continues to keep the same director and writers on staff with these Spidey films, does it really matter if Feige is the producer on them?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 12:54:28 AM by broodwars »
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2019, 01:16:35 AM »
ummm... yes.

Feige's role in overseeing the projects is what has led to the consistent quality of all the MCU films.
He may not write, direct or act in any of the movies, but I'm sure he is watching over the direction of storytelling and setting up the major outline points for the stories to adhere to.
He consults on all sorts of items related to the characters and their stories, and keeps everything on a path that has obviously led to ridiculously consistent results and crazy record profits.

So, yeah, I think having Feige Exec Prod all the films is quite important.

Now Sony may think that since they've tasted the recipe for a successful Spidey movie, they can venture out on their own and recreate it from scratch just because they have most of all the base ingredients, but Feige is that secret ingredient. Spider-Man: Homeless and Hungry may not turn out that bad, but it'll most likely be missing more than a few things that would have made it special (such as all it's ground up connections to the MCU)

but speaking of all that.... here is an interesting article stating that there was a clause in the Marvel/Sony contract for a Spidey 3 in the MCU should Spider-Man 1 and/or 2 cross the $B mark.
https://www.slashfilm.com/spider-man-contract/

sooooo maybe we get a Spidey 3 regardless, and all this negotiation is for contract extension prior to Spider-man getting a script for the third (and possible final) movie

Offline ThePerm

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2019, 03:50:34 AM »
"Much of today’s news about Spider-Man has mischaracterized recent discussions about Kevin Feige’s involvement in the franchise. We are disappointed, but respect Disney’s decision not to have him continue as a lead producer of our next live action Spider-Man film. We hope this might change in the future, but understand that the many new responsibilities that Disney has given him—including all their newly added Marvel properties—do not allow time for him to work on IP they do not own. Kevin is terrific and we are grateful for his help and guidance and appreciate the path he has helped put us on, which we will continue."

Now they're asserting that Marvel Disney doesn't own Spider-man. That could be libelous. That could be something you can sue over. Also, contains an Orwellian narrative trying to minimize Fiege's involvement. Obviously Bullshit. 60% of Spider-man Homecoming's world building was done inside Civil War and End game.  In copyright law film rights are the ability to produce a derivative work based on an Intellectual property. Marvel owns the intellectual property Sony merely has the film rights. They should watch their words. From what I understand is that the wording is "Exclusive License for Film Rights" I don't know if that is the wording for real or not, but that would mean Sony is the only OTHER studio that could make a spider-man film. You don't have to license things to yourself or your subsidiary. Theoretically they could just make their own Spider-man movie.

OK, dude? Simmer down. Sony's clearly referring to the fact that Disney doesn't own the Sony Marvel films, and they're using "IP" as a shorthand. When you're making ME look well-adjusted and tempered by comparison, there's something wrong going on.

If Disney thought they had ANY legal rights to make Spidey films, do you REALLY think they'd be dealing with Sony AT ALL at this point? They're an entertainment juggernaut on the verge of becoming a monopoly (if they aren't one already). They have all the money in the world to have a big legal fight over it if they really wanted to push the issue.

But they aren't, because Marvel in the 90s made some really, REALLY stupid deals to get out of bankruptcy, the kind of deals akin to Harmony Gold essentially buying the Macross worldwide rights in perpetuity back in the 80s (and only recently having to renew them).

I think they think it's less worth it to pursue any sort of legal action. Dealing with teams of lawyers sucks. Still, making public statements by any corporation should be looked at by a lawyer. These statements are filled with Orwellian bullshit. Remember Sony is the company that had the fake movie reviewer and tried to steal all the licensing rights from Nintendo(although I largely see these subsidiaries as different agents). I've watched Sony for years and I never appreciated their tactics. You say something enough and people start to believe it.
Sony's statements are nothing but damage control and distancing.

A movie is made up three acts. The first acts of both Marvel Spider-man movies were determined by predecessing MCU movies. Happy Hogan, Tony Stark, Nick Fury, and the Skrulls are MCU characters. Vulture dealt in Chitauri tech. To say Feige had little role in the Homecoming movies is bullshit.

I bet Sony will just reboot. We'll get to see Uncle Ben killed again. They'll finally cram sinister six down everyone's throats. We'll see a solo Doctor Octopus and Green Goblin movies.

Disney is a small company compared to Apple, and Amazon. I think people should remember that. All the things they're doing are things that will keep them afloat in the future. Movies are going to be a small market compared to a lot of other media in the future. They don't have a monopoly. I can still release a market movies without their blessing. There is several other studios in dormancy. I think Time Warner is going to have a big bounceback in the next few years. It's a good thing they aren't battling with other companies over the rights of batman characters.
 
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 04:42:12 AM by ThePerm »
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2019, 09:14:10 AM »
Apparently Sony made an official statement

https://io9.gizmodo.com/spider-man-showdown-sony-releases-an-official-statemen-1837438904/amp

Blame is on Disney not wanting Feige to be spread too thin working on properties that Disney doesn't own (without sufficient compensation).
Isn’t this... fair? If Sony wanted Disney to look bad here, it’s just as bad at finger-pointing as it is making live-action a Spider-Man films. *self-five*

Sony and Marvel at an impasse. Sony doesn’t have to share Spider-Man or the solo-movie profits, but it’s also shown severe incompetence with the character when left to its own devices. Technically, Sony is playing from a position of power since the rights are in their hands. However, it can’t ignore that Marvel is almost exclusively responsible for its most successful movie. Who needs who more here? I’d argue Sony even though it has every right to protect an asset.

Marvel was doing fine without Spider-Man. Sure, the movies are narratively better with the character and that merch money is nice. Marvel/Disney has shown an uncanny ability to turn C-list and D-list characters into bankable franchises. It also just got the X-Men and Fantastic Four back. Sony, on the other hand, rawdogged its first Spider-Man film series by forcing Sam Raimi to shoehorn Venom then followed that up by rebooting the series only to have Peter Parker dunk a basketball and defeat Electro with dubstep. It’s only a matter of time before Sony executives jack up Into the Spider-Verse.

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2019, 01:00:10 PM »
I think the 50/50 financing/profits pitch from Disney isn't so much about the resources of Marvel Studios making movies for Sony, so much as the movies Marvel Studios is making for Sony aren't movies that Disney can add to Disney+ or to the MCU movie package w/o compensating Sony in some way to do it.

If they own 50% of the movie they make, then they can work a deal where it can be added to D+, MCU Disc Sets or whatever else they want to do with it.

As it stands right now, Homecoming and FFH are 100% Sony movies and Disney has no say what can and can't be done with them after they are completed. Disney has no streaming rights to the movies and can't use them to sell D+ subscriptions.

There are tons of people on the internet begging Sony to play nice with Disney and give them what they want, and I get it, because I too want more good Spidey movies mixing it up with my MCU peoples (New Avengers, F4, X-Men, Guardians, etc etc) and possibly even getting a Disney+ show (i wonder if that's a loophole since Sony doesn't own the TV rights...).
But Sony does hold the movie rights, and Marvel/Disney is still getting a lot out of this current arrangement.
- 5% of 1st dollar gross
- paid for production and consulting
- milestone bonuses
- use of Spider-Man in the other MCU movies
- 100% of all merchandise based on anything Spidey, including movie characters.

I get Disney wanting more for use of their resources, but I can just tell this is about more than Feige and Marvel Studios time and resources, this is about the long game streaming rights to the actual movies being made. Disney doesn't want the MCU compromised by Sony constantly dangling Spider-Man rights in their face. If Disney is co-owner of at least the movies being made, this is no longer an issue. That (imo) is why Disney pushed that 50/50 offer to the center of the table and then refused to budge.

I guess we'll just have to see in the end what wins out as most important.
Feige's want and influence to get and keep Spider-Man in the MCU
or Disney's need to control long term rights to the movies they create.

what do you guys think?

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2019, 01:14:11 PM »
Marvel/Disney had 100% of the merch rights well before the current deal, having bought them back from Sony in 2011 when Sony was in dire straights due to their, at the time, failing Electronics division.
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Offline lolmonade

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2019, 01:57:11 PM »
Sony made the right choice to walk away if Disney was proposing a 50/50 split on the movie after their current deal. 

If you take a look at the worldwide box office for ALL the Spider-Man movies half of what Far From Home made is less money for Sony than any other live-action Spider-Man film by a minimum of 200 MILLION. 

I get it, you're a fan and don't care how your Spider-Man stays connected to the MCU or who has to pay for it.  But if i'm going to be forced to root for a multinational corporation in this situation, i'll hope Sony gets a more reasonable deal than that.

It's Disney's own fault for creating the situation, too.  Especially after making Spider-Man such a primary part of Tony Stark's story arc and how they clearly want him as one of the primary figures in the MCU moving forward.  That does nothing but give SONY leverage in negotiations once this original deal expired, because he's perceived as more valuable now given all of this.

Offline Adrock

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2019, 02:35:42 PM »
But if i'm going to be forced to root for a multinational corporation in this situation, i'll hope Sony gets a more reasonable deal than that.
It’s difficult for me to shed a tear for either side. Which billion dollar company will get money? 🤷‍♀️ Marvel made a bad deal in the 90s, and Disney inherited that problem after buying Marvel. Sony likes doing nothing in a group project and getting an A anyway, and it knows how valuable the current deal is because it’s ihavenoideawhatimdoingdog.jpg without Kevin Feige/Marvel. Except Disney knows it too.

I have doubts Disney’s original restructured offer was a serious one. It has wanted the rights back for years, is building toward another proposal buying the rights back, and would be happy to overpay to do so. For Sony, I don’t think there’s been a better time to sell. Drag Disney over the coals, but in the end, sell.

Offline broodwars

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2019, 03:17:21 PM »
Yeah, if Sony & Marvel can't work this out, I hope that Sony does rake them over the coals for  while; get some good animated films out while it's still possible (Lord knows Disney isn't making any worthwhile animated films these days, that's for sure); and then sell the rights back for an exhorbitant fee.

I'm not happy with Disney owning everything, but if there's one thing the last 20 years of Spidey have shown, it's that you can only do so many stories with this one set of characters without bringing in the larger Marvel universe. I just want Disney to have to work for it
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2019, 03:59:13 PM »
I just want Disney to have to work for it
What does this mean? How do you want Disney to work for it?

Currently, it is doing all of the work. Sony is reaping the benefits of Marvel’s incompetence 20-some years ago. The only other thing I can think of is pay a fortune to get the rights back which is actually what Disney wants to do.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 04:00:52 PM by Adrock »

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2019, 04:23:59 PM »
I'd love to peer into an alternate universe where Disney bought the Spider-Man rights so many years ago and Marvel remained independent.  Could you imagine all the hate Disney would be getting for "holding Spider-Man hostage"?

Frankly, business or ethics wise, neither company is worth rooting for (story/character wise, Marvel obviously wins), but it's funny to see the anti-Disney crowd latching onto this so vehemently pro-other billion dollar corporation just because they're "not Disney". 
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2019, 06:14:21 PM »
I just want Disney to have to work for it
What does this mean? How do you want Disney to work for it?

By doing more than they are right now in this specific situation, where they are just sitting in the back like Doc Ock sipping tea as their army of bots and sycophants spam twitter with "SAVESPIDEYFROMSONY" hashtags to pin the blame for all this on Sony.

I want them to prove that this universe will function just fine without the biggest remaining recognizable character left in it. I want them to prove that the MCU is more than just a collection of poor-to-spectacularly average movies kept aloft by money; sheer quantity; and fanservice. I want them to show that their Sony-less MCU has such a future that Sony has no bargaining power left.

Frankly, business or ethics wise, neither company is worth rooting for (story/character wise, Marvel obviously wins), but it's funny to see the anti-Disney crowd latching onto this so vehemently pro-other billion dollar corporation just because they're "not Disney". 

Setting aside for a moment that Disney hasn't done much to create the MCU, either (since all the ground work was done by Marvel, and Disney just came by and bought them)..

Hey, when the market consists of pretty much 3 companies (Disney, WB, & Sony) and 1 of them has the overwhelming market share, I'll cheer for the company that can still give the frontrunner a bloody nose. I didn't WANT this situation. "You people" (as in the general sense) did when you cheered on Disney's takeover of the film industry, just because they could watch their favorite multi-million dollar action figures being slapped together.

Seriously, between Angry Joe & Boogie cheering on Disney to now buy Sony, I want to vomit. I also never want to see another article about "gamer entitlement" when these same people are stamping their feet and whining because they MIGHT not see at most 2 more Spidey films in the MCU before Holland is too old or too bored to play the character anymore.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 06:16:08 PM by broodwars »
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2019, 07:02:36 PM »
i.e.: "Not Disney".

For all the crying and lamenting over storytelling and expression in media, it really just boils down to "I am edgy because I hate dose mieces to pieces."
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2019, 07:25:08 PM »
Before Broodwars posts a link, Stan Lee's daughter has weighed in on the Spiderman situation, throwing Disney under the bus: https://www.cnet.com/news/stan-lees-daughter-speaks-out-against-marveldisney-in-spidey-spat/

Offline broodwars

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #50 on: August 22, 2019, 07:27:47 PM »
i.e.: "Not Disney".

For all the crying and lamenting over storytelling and expression in media, it really just boils down to "I am edgy because I hate dose mieces to pieces."

No, not "hatred". If I hated Disney, this would be easy. No, I love Disney. I've always loved Disney, but Disney's always been at their worst when they're dominating the market, whether it be the mid-to-late 90s or now. When Disney dominates and no one really challenges them, they get complacent and lazy. The Disney Renaissance didn't start until Don Bluth defected; formed his own studio; and thoroughly defeated Disney at the box office. Disney didn't really start experimenting and innovating their theme park attractions until Universal started putting up a decent fight.

Someone NEEDS to challenge them to keep them innovating and experimenting. Sony is...not that company, but since WB is sitting in the corner in a glorified "time out" at the moment, they're all that is.

And it's not like the companies that Sony owns CAN'T tell a Spider-Man story as good as (if not better then) Marvel, when Sony corporate doesn't try to shove in 6 films' worth of setup into one. Into the Spiderverse is phenomenal, and the Insomniac Spider-Man PS4 game has a fantastic story that's extremely well-told. And, incidentally, Sony just bought Insomniac so they could pull that game's story out for their films any time they wanted.
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #51 on: August 22, 2019, 07:34:02 PM »
Before Broodwars posts a link, Stan Lee's daughter has weighed in on the Spiderman situation, throwing Disney under the bus: https://www.cnet.com/news/stan-lees-daughter-speaks-out-against-marveldisney-in-spidey-spat/

Can't say I care much for her opinion on the subject.  Anyone who's going to literally physically abuse an old man over his money isn't someone we should give spotlight to.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/stan-lee-would-like-to-set-the-record-straight-will-anyone-let-him
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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #52 on: August 22, 2019, 08:04:16 PM »
A funny thing is.... looking through some OLD news articles. Sony may only have film rights to Spider-man. Marvel might have the Television rights.  It looks like at some point Sony could make Television shows. But the last 2 series were made in house without Sony's involvement. So the Spider-man tv series Sony wanted to make... They might not be able to make it. Marvel made the Ultimate Spider-man and the Spider-man 2017 tv series.

So Tom Holland could just re-appear on Disney+ but not in Marvel movies. There might be a big reason for the upcoming shift to TV shows.

Also, there was a video a few months back explaining about how there may also be some logic to why every character in home-coming is dramatically different then their comic counterpart.  Ned is nice and his best friend, no word from Harry, MJ is not Mary Jane, He has a Stark Suit, Aunt May is Hot, Mysterio is a Stark Employee not a film worker. Some of the logic of the variation is that these differences make the characters differentiated from Sony versions.

Tom Holland probably has to do the next Sony movie though because of his contract. But they may just drop him in favor of a replacement.

As far as anyone proving that Spider-man is better in a MCU universe just look at Spider-man 3, Amazing Spider-man 2, and Venom. Most Spider-man movies are good under Sony. There has just been this cycle of: find a good director who loves the character, and then devolve into a studio notes movie. The first 2 Spider-man movies were good. Spider-man 3 you could see the cracks. Sam-Raimi could have done a great movie that revolved around Sand-man with New-Goblin as a secondary foe. But the studio had to shoehorn Venom in. Had there been a 4th movie that focused on Venom that could have been better.  Or even a 5th movie. I've heard rumors Raimi wanted to do Vulture for 4 with John Malkovich though. Raimi took his time with the part 4 production and they had to fire him because they had a timeline otherwise they would lose the rights. They tapped Marc Webb to make Amazing Spider-man. There was some weirdness. They went Darker with Amazing Spider-man, but overall it was a good movie. The biggest complaint was the re-tread on the Origin story. Still with Lizard in the Mix it was pretty good. Amazing Spider-man 2 was hot garbage. His suit looked great, but it was an entirely incoherent movie. They tried to do Electro, Rhino,and Green Goblin at the same time. It had a completely muddled storyline. It was a stark difference from the previous movie that had characters that seemed connected. Venom was both bad, but not that bad. I liked how it had allusions to the movie Life without having a real canonical connection. I really wish they had gone all out with that aspect. I didn't like how the Symbiote was unconnected to Spider-man, but overall I was entertained. I was able to enjoy the movie for what it was even if it wasn't a Spider-man movie.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #53 on: August 22, 2019, 08:14:52 PM »
A funny thing is.... looking through some OLD news articles. Sony may only have film rights to Spider-man. Marvel might have the Television rights.  It looks like at some point Sony could make Television shows. But the last 2 series were made in house without Sony's involvement. So the Spider-man tv series Sony wanted to make... They might not be able to make it. Marvel made the Ultimate Spider-man and the Spider-man 2017 tv series.

Funny you should bring up the animated series, considering Ultimate Spider-Man AND Spider-Man 2017 are both godawful (as are just about everything else Marvel animated Disney's done). In fact, Ultimate Spider-Man was a soulless cash grab chucked out to the door after Disney killed off Sony's Spectacular Spider-Man, which is one of the best animated series ever made.

Like I said, Sony can do good when Sony knows well enough to leave the projects to their creative teams.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 08:25:55 PM by broodwars »
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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2019, 08:25:14 PM »
A funny thing is.... looking through some OLD news articles. Sony may only have film rights to Spider-man. Marvel might have the Television rights.  It looks like at some point Sony could make Television shows. But the last 2 series were made in house without Sony's involvement. So the Spider-man tv series Sony wanted to make... They might not be able to make it. Marvel made the Ultimate Spider-man and the Spider-man 2017 tv series.

Funny you should bring up the animated series, considering Ultimate Spider-Man AND Spider-Man 2017 are both godawful (as are just about everything else Marvel animated Disney's done). In fact, Ultimate Spider-Man was a soulless cash grab chucked out to the door after Disney killed off Sony's Spectacular Spider-Man, which is one of the best animated series ever made.

Like I said, Sony can do good when Sony knows well enough to leave the projects to their creative teams.

That might be the case. Ultimately, I'd prefer these characters to be public domain(because of Disney's mouse and Stan's long lifetime). But that won't happen ever. At least not in my lifetime. Though I imagine things are going to get weird in the future of entertainment. Fan films are going to a new level and I imagine any competitive corporation will allow it as long as they get their 95% cut.

« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 08:29:19 PM by ThePerm »
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2019, 08:26:05 PM »
Actually, you know what? If I'm Sony, that would be part of my counter-offer to Disney's wish for increased an revenue split on the Spidey MCU films: in exchange, open up streaming & television animated projects for Sony in the Marvel world. Considering Spectacular Spider-Man (and the animated universe it was part of with Avengers: EMH and Wolverine & the X-Men), they're (ironically) CLEARLY better at animated TV Marvel projects than Disney is. Split the revenue, of course, but Sony could do a lot of good working in "television" Marvel animation again.
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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2019, 08:34:48 PM »
I think studios need to get on bored with multiple parallel runs of IP. I hate the idea that a studio believes "there can't be 2 of this character because it will confuse fans" they should stop catering to idiots.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2019, 08:36:56 PM »
By doing more than they are right now in this specific situation, where they are just sitting in the back like Doc Ock sipping tea as their army of bots and sycophants spam twitter with "SAVESPIDEYFROMSONY" hashtags to pin the blame for all this on Sony
Who says Disney isn’t? Are you privy to closed doors meetings?
Quote
I want them to prove that this universe will function just fine without the biggest remaining recognizable character left in it. I want them to prove that the MCU is more than just a collection of poor-to-spectacularly average movies kept aloft by money; sheer quantity; and fanservice. I want them to show that their Sony-less MCU has such a future that Sony has no bargaining power left.
The MCU never needed Spider-Man. It was doing just fine without the character, but Sony sure as hell proved it needed Marvel to make a decent live-action Spider-Man movie this side of 2004. Ultimately, you already don’t like these movies which is fine, but you’re clearly an edge case. Catering specifically to people who don’t like these movies is a colossal waste of Marvel’s and by extension, Disney’s time.
Like I said, Sony can do good when Sony knows well enough to leave the projects to their creative teams.
Sure, if you believe Sony knows well enough. I don’t have any confidence in that because *broadly gestures at the Sony email leak*

Disney, however, has left its creative teams alone. Repeatedly. I’d rather Disney/Marvel have Spider-Man from a creative standpoint because I sure as hell don’t fucking care which billion dollar company makes more money.

Offline ThePerm

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #58 on: August 22, 2019, 08:42:55 PM »
Ultimately I want to see some Wolverine/Hulk/Spider-man Crossover.

apparently Jon Watts is not locked down for Spider-man: Homewrecker.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #59 on: August 22, 2019, 08:59:35 PM »
Dammit, Homewrecker was going to be my next fake Spider-Man subtitle.

Offline broodwars

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #60 on: August 22, 2019, 09:03:09 PM »
Dammit, Homewrecker was going to be my next fake Spider-Man subtitle.

My bet is on "Homeward Bound: The Spectacular Journey." :P
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #61 on: August 22, 2019, 09:25:59 PM »
Marvel/Disney had 100% of the merch rights well before the current deal, having bought them back from Sony in 2011 when Sony was in dire straights due to their, at the time, failing Electronics division.

Just wanted to clarify that I wasn't saying the merchandise was part of the deal, just stating everything Disney has related to Spidey during this arrangement.
And I think I left TV Rights out of the mix on accident, even though I mentioned it in the post.

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #62 on: August 22, 2019, 09:47:29 PM »
*edit* nevermind...
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 08:47:40 AM by UncleBob »
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #63 on: August 22, 2019, 09:56:31 PM »
New Spider-Man Deal Rumored To Include 7 movies, Avengers, More

https://cosmicbook.news/spider-man-deal-7-movies-avengers

OK, lots to parse in here. There's some good stuff in here, like Sony being given access to do Live Action TV stuff for Spider-verse, and I'm pretty OK with a 2nd trilogy featuring Spidey's college years. A 30/70 revenue split in favor of Sony would be acceptable if I were in their place, considering the obvious strain on Marvel's part.

I find this part somewhat troublesome:

"If Sony was purchased by another company (like Apple), the Spider-Man film rights would go back to Disney, which Disney would love."

Considering Jobs had a nice share of Disney via his Pixar shares, that's somewhat disconcerting.

I REALLY don't want Disney anywhere NEAR Spider-verse, though.

Overall, if I'm Sony I probably say "yes" to this deal, if the deal is real. This is probably as good as they're going to get with the way things currently stand.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2019, 10:03:58 PM »
I get Disney wanting more for use of their resources, but I can just tell this is about more than Feige and Marvel Studios time and resources, this is about the long game streaming rights to the actual movies being made.
Quote from: from new rumor
Sony would distribute, but Disney will acquire exclusive digital and online rights for Disney Plus and affiliated TV networks
What is this scorcery?

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #65 on: August 22, 2019, 10:16:37 PM »
Sony made the right choice to walk away if Disney was proposing a 50/50 split on the movie after their current deal. 

If you take a look at the worldwide box office for ALL the Spider-Man movies half of what Far From Home made is less money for Sony than any other live-action Spider-Man film by a minimum of 200 MILLION. 

Well... ASM2 made how much money at the Box office and Sony BARELY made a profit on that.
the profit was so razor thin for the amount of money made, they were happy to accept a deal with Marvel, who not only created a better film, but did it on a reasonable budget.

You gotta remember that the production budget shown for the movie doesn't include marketing and promotions. Sony was always waaay over budget and and spending too much on advertising that regardless of making around $800M on a Spidey movie, they didnt' make a real profit.

The other thing to remember, is that the Box Office payback isn't literally the money reported.
Studios get roughly 50% in the US, 35/40% Overseas, and around 25% in China.
A movie with a $200M production budget, and a $130M advertising budget that made $800M WW in the Box Office didn't necessarily bring them $400M back for a profit of $70M
it's more likely that it only brought them back $300M for a $30M loss... then you subtract tax credits and co sponsored advertising (+some other misc Hollywood Accounting methods) and you might squeak out a small profit.
 
New Spider-Man Deal Rumored To Include 7 movies, Avengers, More

https://cosmicbook.news/spider-man-deal-7-movies-avengers

How legit is this source, because that deal sounds AWESOME!!!
we get a bunch more Holland Spidey in the MCU, some Spider-Verse to maybe cross-over with some "What-If" D+ series, and as I mentioned before DISNEY GETS IT'S STREAMING RIGHTS.

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #66 on: August 22, 2019, 10:27:18 PM »
>How legit is this source, because that deal sounds AWESOME!!!

I have no idea.  It came up in a seperate search I was running.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #67 on: August 23, 2019, 12:17:59 AM »
>How legit is this source, because that deal sounds AWESOME!!!

I have no idea.  It came up in a seperate search I was running.

and for the record, by AWESOME, I meant, too good to be true.

I'll have to hear it from a reputable source, unless someone can vouch for this "source".

edit: and here is an insightful article from June 2017: How Sony lost Spider-Man
https://www.mtrnetwork.net/sony-lost-spider-man/

edit 2: another interesting article that states Marvel paying Sony a $30M yearly royalty that's tied to the SM movies performances
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/spider-man-standoff-why-sony-thinks-it-doesnt-need-kevins-playbook-anymore-1233644?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_source=Direct
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 01:29:24 AM by BlackNMild2k1 »

Offline ThePerm

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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #69 on: August 23, 2019, 02:06:48 AM »
How about this article on Rothman:
https://variety.com/2016/film/news/sony-executives-disillusioned-tom-rothman-1201904528/

of course if you circle back to the 2017 article I posted earlier.... maybe this is all part of a grander plan!? Disney setting up Sony to fail and get the Spider-man franchise back.... or possibly to just by Sony Pictures outright?

Offline ThePerm

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #70 on: August 23, 2019, 02:39:43 AM »
I had to look up obstreperous, but I was mostly correct on its meaning.

reading that article makes me think Rothman wrote that press release from yesterday.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 02:42:52 AM by ThePerm »
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #71 on: August 23, 2019, 03:31:07 AM »
Here's one more with some interesting details:
https://variety.com/2019/film/news/spider-man-sony-marvel-divorce-1203311351/

Quote
Sony had been in negotiations to keep Feige in the fold as a consulting producer, but Disney — who just this year swallowed 20th Century Fox and all of its Marvel characters with it — left the table after Sony refused to increase its share of the profits. Some reports said that Disney was looking to essentially become a 50/50 partner in the series. Another insider close to the deal said negotiations came up for renewal as long as six months ago, and Sony did not move to act on a new pact. Others with knowledge of the deal disputed this, saying Disney made it clear it was no longer interested in partnering. The finger-pointing has been dizzying.

Several insiders said Sony Pictures chief Tom Rothman was willing to give up as much as roughly 25% of the franchise and welcome Disney in as a co-financing partner in exchange for Feige’s services.

I wonder if that 25% part is true....
better to get a foot in the door, (and keep feeding me my MCU Spider-Man) than to walk away and watch Sony burn it all to the ground (slowly, and painfully).

Offline lolmonade

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #72 on: August 23, 2019, 08:13:50 AM »
I'd love to peer into an alternate universe where Disney bought the Spider-Man rights so many years ago and Marvel remained independent.  Could you imagine all the hate Disney would be getting for "holding Spider-Man hostage"?

Frankly, business or ethics wise, neither company is worth rooting for (story/character wise, Marvel obviously wins), but it's funny to see the anti-Disney crowd latching onto this so vehemently pro-other billion dollar corporation just because they're "not Disney".

I used the words "rooting for" glibly because of exactly what you said.  That said, if Disney hadn't fought to keep altering copyright law, they could have both made their own Spider-Man movies.

I don't have a passionate take on the subject just because I've fallen off the MCU train after Endgame and I've always been at most a casual fan of Comic Book characters.  BUT purely from a business sense, Disney played their hand wrong and assumed they had leverage when they've actually lost leverage due to how central they made Spider-Man's inclusion into the MCU. 

Purely speaking business, it's asinine anyone would be angry at anyone but Disney for being overly greedy about what they expect for collaboration with Sony.

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #73 on: August 23, 2019, 08:47:10 AM »
Ignore the link I posted earlier.  Appears that site is total trashballs.
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Offline Shorty McNostril

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #74 on: August 24, 2019, 06:38:10 PM »

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #75 on: August 25, 2019, 01:01:25 AM »
It's like there is an MCU trilogy curse.
There's always gotta be drama in #3 when it's the same director.

Offline ThePerm

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #76 on: August 25, 2019, 09:06:18 PM »
well everything I look at says Marvel has the TV rights so....

Chances are Marvel, Tom Holland, and Sony are sorting out how to get Tom Holland's Spider-man into a TV show. The big thing to iron out is how to get Spider-man to cross over into Marvel movies Hulk style. If Marvel can have Spider-man in TV shows then they can keep making Spider-man movies as TV shows. We might transition into an all TV format though.
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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #77 on: August 26, 2019, 01:13:51 AM »
https://www.superherohype.com/movies/463659-tom-holland-and-kevin-feige-address-spider-mans-mcu-exit

Seems pretty definite at this stage based on Holland and Feige.

In my mind, everything going on right now is posturing from each side to garner public favor and someone will eventually break and offer an alternative that makes everyone (kinda) happy.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #79 on: August 31, 2019, 01:37:36 PM »
LOL


Offline nickmitch

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #80 on: August 31, 2019, 07:59:21 PM »
#FactsTho
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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #82 on: September 15, 2019, 04:13:01 PM »
Should be noted, that's the second revision, prior to the agreement that allowed Marvel/Disney to use Spider-Man.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #83 on: September 15, 2019, 06:38:02 PM »
well everything I look at says Marvel has the TV rights so....

Chances are Marvel, Tom Holland, and Sony are sorting out how to get Tom Holland's Spider-man into a TV show. The big thing to iron out is how to get Spider-man to cross over into Marvel movies Hulk style. If Marvel can have Spider-man in TV shows then they can keep making Spider-man movies as TV shows. We might transition into an all TV format though.
Anyone interested in reading the Marvel-Sony Spider-Man contract?
https://wikileaks.org/sony/docs/07/junderwood/1%20Corp%20Dev/Spiderman/Executive%20Summary%20of%20All%20Deal%20Points/Executive%20Summary%20%28Creative%29.pdf

it's a long one....

Quote
RIGHTS: SPE has the exclusive right to utilize the “Spider-Man” character and the other
Creative Elements listed in Paragraph 1 above to (a) develop and produce live action or
animated theatrical motion pictures (each, a “Picture”) and live-action television series
(and also animated television series with episodes longer than 44 minutes), during the
Production Term, and (b) distribute, advertise and otherwise exploit in perpetuity any
motion picture or television series that commenced production during the Production Term

According to there, Disney has rights to animation that is less than 44 minutes long (basically hour long tv programming w/ commercials included)

Should be noted, that's the second revision, prior to the agreement that allowed Marvel/Disney to use Spider-Man.

is there a newer one leaked anywhere?

I'd be interested in skimming it for a few points of interest.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 06:40:59 PM by BlackNMild2k1 »

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #84 on: September 15, 2019, 11:39:46 PM »
I've not seen the newer one.  I think that's the revised one after they turned product licensing back to Marvel.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #85 on: September 20, 2019, 10:29:29 AM »
I just want to post a rumor that's been laying around for about a week now.
No specific source, and I'm not sure if ti's credible, but posting it for possible discussion reasons.

Everyone know how everyone is getting into the streaming game. Part of the reason for the FOX acquisition by Disney for Disney+.
NBC has "Peacock", Apple has ApplePlus/+ or whatever it's called.....

Well the rumor was that Amazon was really pushing to purchase Sony Pictures and Animation studios to bolster Amazon Prime with more original content. Apparently Sony denied trying to sell, and that supposed deal never happened.

Then Disney being all cozy with Apple, who is dropping Apple+, and who happens to need more studios to make more original content. Has perhaps talked Apple into acquiring Sony Pictures and Animation studios to give Apple plus an actual back catalog of content for their streaming service. And in the process of this, would revert Spider-Man rights back to Disney.

This was supposedly the reason Disney came on strong for co-financing for Spidey related films that touch the MCU. They figured they either profit now, or they hold out a year or two and make all the profit later.

Now I didn't really give this rumor all that much thought until yesterday when I saw a story about how Bob Iger stated that "If Jobs hadn't died, Disney probably would've merged with Apple."

and that made me think that maybe their cooperation lies much deeper than pleasantries at the surface would lead you to believe. I mean they do have connection through Pixar and those have only spread through DAS, the special effects studio and beyond at this point.

Anyone think there could be a little truth to this speculative rumor?

tl;dr
Disney uses relationship with Apple, and Apple's need for content for streaming service, to persuade Apple into buying Sony Pictures so that Spider-Man rights revert back to Marvel Studios for FREE.

Offline Spak-Spang

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #86 on: September 21, 2019, 01:22:01 AM »
I think that is far fetched. It would mean Sony would need to sell to Apple and regulators would need to allow it. That seems too risky.

Offline Adrock

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #87 on: September 21, 2019, 08:21:08 AM »
I watched a video that addressed the Apple/Sony rumor. Apparently, it started last year when Variety made a prediction that Apple would buy Sony Pictures because it needs content for AppleTV+. It was merely a prediction, not insider reporting. As far as I can tell, there’s no evidence backing the rumor. Now, it wouldn’t surprise me to see Apple shop around. The streaming video market is crowded and only getting more competitive. And honestly, this would be the most ideal scenario for Disney. It would get Spider-Man back from free and kick everyone’s ass in the market anyway because of how rich its portfolio is.
I think that is far fetched. It would mean Sony would need to sell to Apple and regulators would need to allow it. That seems too risky.
I’d be inclined to agree had Comcast not bought NBC Universal, AT&T not merged with TimeWarner, and especially Disney not bought Fox.

Offline ThePerm

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #88 on: September 21, 2019, 06:49:55 PM »
Also it's Sony Pictures, not the whole company. Sony Pictures is like the smallest of the top studios. I think Sony is worth about 9-14 billion. They're worth less if they sell because the can't keep Spider-man. I'm sure Sony would love to make 9 or so billion dollars one year though. The most they're going to make from movies in 2020 is maybe 2 billion. They don't have much going on next year besides Morbius, and Ghostbusters. They have a whole lot of untitled/under developed vapor stuff in the future.
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Offline nickmitch

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #89 on: September 22, 2019, 08:30:22 PM »
I think that is far fetched. It would mean Sony would need to sell to Apple and regulators would need to allow it. That seems too risky.
I’d be inclined to agree had Comcast not bought NBC Universal, AT&T not merged with TimeWarner, and especially Disney not bought Fox.
The only major block in recent memory was AT&T/T-Mobile, IIRC.  But that was a while ago.  The current admin (please don't ban me) seems more lax than usual on the anti-trust side.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #90 on: September 27, 2019, 01:10:06 AM »
See Disney, this is what we when you fight with Sony.... no one asked for this. No one wants this....
now march you ass back to the table and fight for what is yours. or just write the damn check already. c'mon!!!!

Sony get the writers of Morbius (and Gods of Egypt*) to write the script for "Madame Web"
http://collider.com/madame-web-movie-sets-morbius-writers/

The Venomverse is expanding quickly. Somebody please save Holland!!! He deserves better.


* and Dracula Untold, and The Last Witch Hunter.... Venomverse is in good hands, very capable hands, over seen by Sony...... :/

Offline Adrock

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #91 on: September 27, 2019, 09:39:16 AM »
See Disney, this is what we when you fight with Sony.... no one asked for this. No one wants this....
now march you ass back to the table and fight for what is yours. or just write the damn check already. c'mon!!!!
I was under the impression that Disney/Marvel wants to buy the rights back except Sony won’t sell and has rebuffed several attempts by Disney/Marvel to do so. Disney/Marvel then “settled” for the character-sharing deal which wasn’t that great deal for them anyway.

The MCU is better narratively with but doesn’t need Spider-Man. Marvel proved this for years. It took a bunch of fucking nobodies with The Hulk and made The Avengers. It took even more nobodies, hired the guy who made the PG Porn web series, and made a better Star Wars than Lucasfilm had since 1983. The list goes on.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2019, 01:29:38 PM by Adrock »

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #92 on: September 27, 2019, 11:56:35 AM »
https://io9.gizmodo.com/sony-and-marvel-strike-new-deal-to-keep-spider-man-in-t-1838527425

So new deal has been made. Reading it now.

Quote
According to reports, as part of the deal, Marvel Studios’ Kevin Feige will produce the film alongside Sony’s Amy Pascal, which has currently been given a July 16, 2021 release date. The deal will also allow Tom Holland’s iteration of Peter Parker to appear in future films in both Sony’s fledgling spider-verse of potential movies and Disney’s Marvel Cinematic Universe

...

The prior deal between the studios saw Disney take approximately 5% of the box office earnings for both films in the Homecoming reboot series, directed by Jon Watts, with new claims alleging that this revived deal will now see the megacorporation take approximately 25%
« Last Edit: September 27, 2019, 11:59:41 AM by Stratos »
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #93 on: September 27, 2019, 12:00:45 PM »
Good, now all the 30 year old nan-children shrieking like 5 year olds that Spidey wouldn't be in yet another spectacularly-mediocre MCU Iron Man film can calm down now. Seriously, the way people were pouting over this was ridiculous, and a 25% revenue share to Disney is reasonable.

And Captain Marvel has her sidekick again.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2019, 12:03:21 PM by broodwars »
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #94 on: September 27, 2019, 12:28:47 PM »
At this point, you're just trolling for the sake of trolling.
Just some random guy on the internet who has a different opinion of games than you.

Offline Adrock

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #95 on: September 27, 2019, 01:03:35 PM »
Well, that was fast.
Good, now all the 30 year old nan-children shrieking like 5 year olds that Spidey wouldn't be in yet another spectacularly-mediocre MCU Iron Man film can calm down now. Seriously, the way people were pouting over this was ridiculous, and a 25% revenue share to Disney is reasonable.
Also, now all the 30-something man-children who can’t stop discussing movies and IPs they claim to despise can...... continue discussing movies and IPs they claim to despise. Well, carry on then.

Offline broodwars

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #96 on: September 27, 2019, 01:07:20 PM »
At this point, you're just trolling for the sake of trolling.

I have no patience for the levels of outright screaming & petulant whining I saw across the internet when it was originally reported that Spidey was leaving the MCU. Not an end to Spidey fikms altogether, jist the Spidey would no longer be the MCU's Anazing Friend. You'd think that Disney had made a shitty Star Wars movie, only pettier. It was like watching the Final Fantasy 7 fanbase all over again: they're already the company's favorite children, pandered to quite often. But one thing goes against their wishes, and they lose their minds.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #97 on: September 27, 2019, 01:17:41 PM »
I have no patience for the levels of outright screaming & petulant whining I saw across the internet
This is funny coming from you.

Offline broodwars

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #98 on: September 27, 2019, 01:22:24 PM »
I have no patience for the levels of outright screaming & petulant whining I saw across the internet
This is funny coming from you.

Indeed, but I'd like to think I've mellowed a bit over the years. I'm now just largely indifferent to the actions of soul-less corporations with no artistic integrity instead of frothingly angry.  :P
« Last Edit: September 27, 2019, 01:28:02 PM by broodwars »
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #99 on: September 27, 2019, 02:16:46 PM »
I guess they heard my (and everyone elses plees).
I had also typed out a pretty passive argument for why the share deal works in Sony's favor. I don't remember if I actually posted it here though...

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #100 on: September 27, 2019, 04:41:27 PM »
Hell yes!!!!

If nothing else but for more JJ Jameson in the MCU.  We only just got him back.  I'd love to see him go nuts on the whole Avengers team.

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #101 on: September 27, 2019, 05:56:02 PM »
At this point, you're just trolling for the sake of trolling.

I have no patience for the levels of outright screaming & petulant whining I saw across the internet when it was originally reported that Spidey was leaving the MCU. Not an end to Spidey fikms altogether, jist the Spidey would no longer be the MCU's Anazing Friend. You'd think that Disney had made a shitty Star Wars movie, only pettier. It was like watching the Final Fantasy 7 fanbase all over again: they're already the company's favorite children, pandered to quite often. But one thing goes against their wishes, and they lose their minds.

So, yes.
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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #102 on: September 27, 2019, 06:06:01 PM »
The other takeaway from the new deal is that the Spider-Verse and the MCU are sorta connected. So things could happen in the MCU which affect the Spider-Verse and visa-versa. Also apparently Sony's Spider-Man exclusivity is a 20 year deal, so it may end in 2022 anyway.
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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Disney & Sony Fighting results in MCU losing Spider-Man!!!
« Reply #103 on: September 27, 2019, 07:17:27 PM »
I have no patience for the levels of outright screaming & petulant whining I saw across the internet
This is funny coming from you.

At this point, you're just trolling for the sake of trolling.

I have no patience for the levels of outright screaming & petulant whining I saw across the internet when it was originally reported that Spidey was leaving the MCU. Not an end to Spidey fikms altogether, jist the Spidey would no longer be the MCU's Anazing Friend. You'd think that Disney had made a shitty Star Wars movie, only pettier. It was like watching the Final Fantasy 7 fanbase all over again: they're already the company's favorite children, pandered to quite often. But one thing goes against their wishes, and they lose their minds.

consider if we go back on the internet and we go back to how much people gloated about Spider-man originally joining the MCU the disappointment made a lot of sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcmT1zJ26UE

The other weird psychological reason why we hated Spider-man being gone so much was what went down on Infinity War. It's like it was happening all over again. Sony snapped their fingers and he was gone.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2019, 07:24:15 PM by ThePerm »
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony make up!! Spider-Man back in the MCU!!!.... For now.
« Reply #104 on: September 27, 2019, 09:48:16 PM »
The other takeaway from the new deal is that the Spider-Verse and the MCU are sorta connected. So things could happen in the MCU which affect the Spider-Verse and visa-versa. Also apparently Sony's Spider-Man exclusivity is a 20 year deal, so it may end in 2022 anyway.

Where'd you hear this?

Offline ThePerm

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Re: Disney & Sony make up!! Spider-Man back in the MCU!!!.... For now.
« Reply #105 on: September 27, 2019, 10:11:16 PM »
I've never heard that anywhere. It wasn't in that long contract I read a week ago. Though I don't know how legit that is. Words I read were perpetuity as long as they keep pumping them out.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2019, 10:13:53 PM by ThePerm »
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony make up!! Spider-Man back in the MCU!!!.... For now.
« Reply #106 on: September 29, 2019, 09:00:37 PM »
I just ran across this Deadline article on the Spider-Man back in the MCU story after coming across a video on youtube talking about the Marvel Sony deal....
both seem to either get the facts wrong, or make an assumption based on incorrect info not stated in any source other than themselves....

https://deadline.com/2019/09/sony-walt-disneys-marvel-team-on-third-spider-man-homecoming-title-with-superhero-to-appear-in-future-marvel-pics-1202746497/

Deadline is talking about Disney/Marvel getting an 25% equity stake in the Spider-Man franchise as part of this deal. Meaning that Marvel/Disney is a 25% owner of Spider-Man again? or what exactly do they mean by 25% equity stake? It usually means owning a piece of "business/product". But nowhere in any of the other stories I've seen has anyone mentioned "Equity Stake"
Quote
UPDATED with more details: Sony has agreed to the terms that Disney originally proposed for its participation in a third Spider-Man movie, whereby Disney/Marvel would co-finance 25% of a third Homecoming movie for a 25% equity stake. The deal also calls for Spider-Man appearing in one more Disney/Marvel movie.

This is also a big win for Sony here in continuing a series that will likely give it another $1 billion-plus-grossing film along with an 8% distribution fee or higher. Additionally, the deal keeps intact the creative steering of Disney’s Marvel Studios head Kevin Feige, who led two of the best and most profitable fan-pleasing pics in the Spidey film canon to $2 billion worldwide.

and here it is on Forbes.com - Scott Mendelson
https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2019/09/28/spider-man-batman-suicide-squad-lebron-james-shang-chi-thor-tom-cruise-jurassic-avatar-indiana-jones-star-wars-marvel-disney-box-office/#7fb49f627f55
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The cost for the brokered peace was 25 %, with Disney putting up around 25% of the production budget for the third Spidey flick and thus getting 25% of the profits. But the big news isn’t just that Holland’s specific interpretation of Peter Parker will remain technically encased within the MCU. Nor is it necessarily the news that Disney will now essentially own 25% of another studio’s crown jewel IP, although that part of the deal should give us all pause. What stood out is that this third Spider-Man movie will open on July 16, 2021.

and this comes from a video channel I will occasionally watch that was stating that Marvel is now "25% involved" in all of the Spidey spin-offs moving forward since they own 25% of the IP now....

WUUUUUUT!!!!?

where are they getting this from?

as far as I can tell from all the stories and comments I've seen, Disney/Marvel is co-financing 25% of the next MCU Spider-Man movie and also getting Spidey to appear in 1 more MCU movie. That is all at the moment.
Sony will get to carry with their "Venomverse/Spidey-verse" and now Tom Holland will be able to be the "same" Spider-Man across both the MCU and the SonySpidey-verse.

Chances are they will not reference each other at all. It's possible that the "multi-verse" carries MCU Holland into the Sonyverse and back again, or more likely that it's just a different Holland being a different Spider-Man (in hopefully a different Spidey suit) in a alt-universe completely unrelated and unaware of each others existence.

But where does this "equity share" and Marvel working on all of Sony's Spidey side=projects come from? Did I miss something somewhere?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 12:49:16 AM by BlackNMild2k1 »

Offline broodwars

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Re: Disney & Sony make up!! Spider-Man back in the MCU!!!.... For now.
« Reply #107 on: September 29, 2019, 09:41:52 PM »
How I interpret this is that Disney is putting up 25% of the costs for 25% of the profit. Anything else just doesn't make sense. The way I understood it, previously Disney paid almost all the cost and Sony made almost all the profit.
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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Disney & Sony make up!! Spider-Man back in the MCU!!!.... For now.
« Reply #108 on: September 29, 2019, 11:44:49 PM »
The authors of the article probably misused words.

Marvel is delving into the multi-verse and Sony is delving into a multi-verse. Now is the perfect time for writing a perfect continuity patch.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 11:47:21 PM by ThePerm »
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony make up!! Spider-Man back in the MCU!!!.... For now.
« Reply #109 on: September 30, 2019, 12:43:38 AM »
How I interpret this is that Disney is putting up 25% of the costs for 25% of the profit. Anything else just doesn't make sense. The way I understood it, previously Disney paid almost all the cost and Sony made almost all the profit.

No, the way it worked before was Sony paid the bills, Sony made profits.
Marvel did the work, and got paid for the work they did plus milestone bonuses, and 5% of first day gross.

Now Disney wanted to pay part of the cost to take an equal amount of profit to make the continued partnership not so one sided on the profit side of things.

I'll dig up my previous post from elsewhere and repeat it here as I had some numbers in there about why this whole deal made sense.

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Disney & Sony make up!! Spider-Man back in the MCU!!!.... For now.
« Reply #110 on: September 30, 2019, 01:41:19 AM »
Think of it though.  Venom made $800m.  Marvel's last few movies have been $1b.

If Sony lets Marvel pay for 25% of production costs but only take home 75% of the box office, assuming Marvel gets them a few more $1b+ movies, they'll be out in front *and* get to claim more $1b box office hits, helping their company value and stock prices.

And none of these articles seem to cover home video/streaming profits.  As much as I was okay with the Venom movie, I likely won't see it again.  I've seen the MCU movies 2+ times each (granted, anything that is just a flat two times was only in theaters - although, ironically, I've only seen FFH once) and am eyeing that box set.  If Sony gets Marvel to do the legwork on their Spiderverse, I really see no downside for them.

Honestly, I don't see why Marvel pursued Spider-Man so fiercely.  I'm glad it's in the MCU, but honestly, I think the entire MCU would have developed Civil War and beyond without him just fine*.  Let Sony Pictures continue to struggle to understand the formula and eventually sell the rights back to Disney or be bought by Apple and the rights revert back.  I can only guess Marvel didn't want Sony to taint the Spider-Man franchise to Fant4stic levels of bad before either of those happened.

*Assuming there was never an MCU Spider-Man.  Once he was there, there's no going back.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony make up!! Spider-Man back in the MCU!!!.... For now.
« Reply #111 on: September 30, 2019, 02:29:59 AM »
This is my post from 2 weeks ago today.

I was attempting to lay out the facts of the deal that was in place, and then look at the benefits of the potential offer in play to renew the deal that had expired.

Quote
I've been keeping up with this passively, so I just want to get a better understanding of the ENTIRE situation at play here.

Marvel Studios has essentially been making Spider-Man movies for Sony for basically peanuts on the dollar (paid as a production house and hitting certain B.O. Milestone bonuses), with the added benefit of getting to use Spider-Man in the MCU proper. This deal was set-up as a measure of good faith to show how working together can benefit both sides. Marvel Studios not only reigned in the movie budget, but increased the B.O. gross and quality of the project as a whole by making it a part of a much larger machine in the MCU.
 
After 3 cameo appearances and 2 solo movies, the collaborative deal was to expire.
So Disney sought to re-negotiate this deal to be more beneficial to Disney/Marvel Studios, since they were in fact using one of their "movie slots" in the phase, their time, talent and self supporting HYPE machine to make and promote these solo Spidey movies into being not only more likable, successful, and profitable, but also the highest grossing Sony movie in Sony movie history.
And for clarification, this deal is ONLY for Spidey movies related to the MCU, right? this is not Disney taking back a portion of the license, as this is only about making these movies with direct connections to the MCU, right?


Movie: Production Budgets/Gross - (profit):
Far From Home: $160M/$1.128B - ($404M)
Homecoming: $175M/$880M - ($265M)

Amazing Spider-Man 2: $260M(?)/$709M - ($94.5M)
Amazing Spider-Man: $230M/$758M - ($149M)
Spider-Man 3: $258M/$891M - ($187.5M)
Spider-Man 2: $200M/$783M - ($191M)
Spider-Man: $139M/$821M - ($271M)

To keep things simple, I'm using 50% of gross - budget = profit (not even counting marketing.....)
As you can see the Sony made Spider-Man movies always have the habit of increased budget and decreasing profits.
That profit shrinks even more once you factor in marketing if it's not already accounted for.
On the other hand, the Marvel Studios made Spider-Man movies actually have a more reasonable budget and increasing profit margin.  Going by the simplified chart above, FFH almost made Sony as much money as the previous 3 Spider-Man movies combined. Add in Homecoming and Sony made more off those 2 MCU SM movies than they have on all other live action Spider-man movies, outside of Spider-Man 1, COMBINED.
Sony's highest profiting Spider-Man is the 1st one..... they've never been that successful again.


So with all that being laid out..... Disney comes back to the negotiating table to make a new deal that is mutually beneficial to both sides. To my knowledge, Disney after having already given the sweetheart promotional limited time offer deal, now wanted to also profit from this partnership directly as well.
They offered a COST and PROFIT split (lots of people seem to keep forgetting that) - splitting the risk, sharing the rewards.
Something along the lines of:
50/50 split - Disney takes 50% of production cost and 50% of profit split (on FFH, Sony would've spent $80M and made $202M)
75/25 split - Disney takes on 25% of production cost and 25% or profit split (on FFH, Sony would've spent $120M and made $303)
and I heard about an uneven split as well:
50/30 split - Where Disney takes on 50% of the cost, but only takes 30% of the profits (on FFH, Disney would've spent $80M and made $169M - Sony makes $234M)

Looking at the breakdown, all of those situations are still win-win for Sony as Marvel Studios is doing the majority of the heavy lifting. Assuming Budget and Gross stay relatively the same going forward, with any of the splits mentioned above, Sony still makes more on any future Spider-Man movie made by Marvel Studios than they were making on their own. (outside of SM1)


I understand that Sony loves the deal that was in place, but that was never destined to last. That was a peace offering on good faith for more beneficial terms in the near future. More like taking a low paid internship to eventually land that lucrative paycheck after getting your foot int he door and proving yourself.

and once again using the same simplified calculation as the SM movies for Venom:
Venom: $100M/$854M - ($328M)

I can see why Sony might get a little bold and think they can go about it on their own, but do we really expect the budget of the next Venom movie to be so low, or the gross to be so high? It theoretically made more profit than any of the Sony made SM movies, but looking at the trend for Sony made SM related movies.... do we really expect that to continue in a positive direction? And then we have Morbius... I don't know how connected they plan on making it to their "venom-verse" but I doubt results will be anywhere near what they experienced with Hype and curiosity around a first ever Venom movie.

I personally agree with Joe Russo in thinking it's a mistake for Sony Execs to think they can witness first hand what Feige and crew over at Marvel Studios have been able to accomplish, and think they can venture out on their own and recreate it no problem, now that the character was rebooted in that light..... it's not that simple, and they'll eventually/hopefully realize that before it's too late to continue with what is already proven to be working right now (before the fans suffer).

I'm pretty sure these two come back to the table and hopefully work something out (after Morbius and Venom 2, but hopefully before production on a SM: Homeless starts).
In the meantime, the MCU can tell a majority of stories that take place in the Cosmic MCU and for things earth related, can focus on that time span of 5 years between IW and Endgame and the first few years since.

Also, could Marvel Studios also use Tom Holland on a Spider-Man D+ limited series to continue the storyline from the movies if Sony decides to not carry on the relationship? Or is there a clause in his contract to not allow that?

As you can see, any cost/profit split Disney was rumored to offer, were all beneficial to Sony, so I think it made sense for Sony to continue the deal w/ that split in play, but it also makes sense that they too wanted to use "Spider-man" in their own in-house made movies as well.
Hopefully they allow Marvel to use whichever villains they want, and work towards the MCU Sinister Six that is currently being built instead of trying to force movies no one is asking just to pad out their venom-verse thing.... and therefore blocking what could be far superior usage of said characters

If they are really going to push this "multi-verse" alt-dimension angle, I really hope it doesn't restrict the toy box of characters Marvel has access too, just because Sony fears the audience will get confused.. or prefer the MCU version over theirs. (we won't be confused... and MCU versions have nailed it so far... but that's not to say Sony couldn't get one right too. Doc Ock was good back in the day.)


edit: well.... anyways.... I think this is a good summary. LOL
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FilthySoreHomalocephale-mobile.mp4
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 04:26:48 AM by BlackNMild2k1 »

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony make up!! Spider-Man back in the MCU!!!.... For now.
« Reply #112 on: October 02, 2019, 09:30:11 PM »
Apparently, it was Holland who saved MCU Spider-Man.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/tom-hollands-last-minute-appeal-helped-seal-a-spider-man-deal-1244688

He took it upon himself to bring Iger & Rothman back to the table and work out a deal for atleast 1 more movie.

Offline nickmitch

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Re: Disney & Sony make up!! Spider-Man back in the MCU!!!.... For now.
« Reply #113 on: October 02, 2019, 10:06:57 PM »
"With great power, comes great responsibility."
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony make up!! Spider-Man back in the MCU!!!.... For now.
« Reply #114 on: October 02, 2019, 10:19:59 PM »
#bestspider-man

Offline broodwars

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Re: Disney & Sony make up!! Spider-Man back in the MCU!!!.... For now.
« Reply #115 on: October 02, 2019, 10:40:35 PM »
Actor wants to continue to get paid for the most important role in their career, so they push to get paid for another movie. In other breaking news, people die if they are killed.  :P
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 10:44:02 PM by broodwars »
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Disney & Sony make up!! Spider-Man back in the MCU!!!.... For now.
« Reply #116 on: October 03, 2019, 12:53:56 AM »
Umm.... I didn't see previous Spider-men push to continue their series..... or push to keep their series from becoming a mess.
and it wasn't as if Holland wasn't going to continue making Spider-Man movies, he was just going to continue them outside of the MCU.

This Spider-Man went the extra mile to make sure his series would continue to be in the larger Marvel toybox where at least his next movie would be prevented from falling into the same declining hole that all the previous SonySpidey movies fell into.

(but yes, your sarcasm is also noted)

Offline Adrock

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Re: Disney & Sony make up!! Spider-Man back in the MCU!!!.... For now.
« Reply #117 on: October 03, 2019, 08:36:44 AM »
Being in a good Spider-Man movie is also better for his career than being in a bad Spider-Man movie (though Andrew Garfield is doing well for himself). Sony managed to jack up two Spider-Man film franchises. I don’t even know how that’s possible. Good for Tom Holland for using his limited Actor-Power® to get Disney and Sony back to the table and say, “Hey, guys, can we, like, not?”

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Disney & Sony make up!! Spider-Man back in the MCU!!!.... For now.
« Reply #118 on: October 03, 2019, 10:19:46 AM »
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Offline BranDonk Kong

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Re: Disney & Sony make up!! Spider-Man back in the MCU!!!.... For now.
« Reply #119 on: October 03, 2019, 12:15:37 PM »
Tom Holland is a lifelong Spider-Man fan, I'm sure he wants what is actually best for the character that he's playing - which is 100% keeping him in the MCU.
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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Disney & Sony make up!! Spider-Man back in the MCU!!!.... For now.
« Reply #120 on: October 03, 2019, 05:25:18 PM »
Being in a good Spider-Man movie is also better for his career than being in a bad Spider-Man movie (though Andrew Garfield is doing well for himself). Sony managed to jack up two Spider-Man film franchises. I don’t even know how that’s possible. Good for Tom Holland for using his limited Actor-Power® to get Disney and Sony back to the table and say, “Hey, guys, can we, like, not?”

It hasn't hurt Andrew Garfield. I really liked Under the Silver Lake.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Disney & Sony make up!! Spider-Man back in the MCU!!!.... For now.
« Reply #121 on: October 03, 2019, 05:58:25 PM »
Being in a good Spider-Man movie is also better for his career than being in a bad Spider-Man movie (though Andrew Garfield is doing well for himself). Sony managed to jack up two Spider-Man film franchises. I don’t even know how that’s possible. Good for Tom Holland for using his limited Actor-Power® to get Disney and Sony back to the table and say, “Hey, guys, can we, like, not?”
It hasn't hurt Andrew Garfield. I really liked Under the Silver Lake.
I know. You literally quoted me stating he’s doing well for himself.

Offline ThePerm

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Re: Disney & Sony make up!! Spider-Man back in the MCU!!!.... For now.
« Reply #122 on: October 04, 2019, 04:22:55 AM »
I was agreeing with you  QFT yo
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