Author Topic: Star Trek  (Read 79047 times)

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Offline Shorty McNostril

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #75 on: July 21, 2019, 02:18:38 AM »
Must be layering on that make-up nice and thick to cover all the wrinkles lol.

Offline broodwars

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #76 on: August 06, 2019, 01:23:45 PM »
CBS has confirmed that Picard will be a "hybrid" of STD and Next Generation.

Well, there went my hopes of this thing being salvageable. They swear that means it'll have the writing of Next Gen with the budget of Discovery, but they haven't proven that level of writing so far with their stewardship of Star Trek.

https://boundingintocomics.com/2019/08/05/cbs-exec-confirms-star-trek-picard-will-be-hybrid-of-discovery-and-the-next-generation
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 01:26:08 PM by broodwars »
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #77 on: August 06, 2019, 09:05:35 PM »
I would have hoped they'd be aiming for better writing than TNG, as that really wasn't a strong point of that series. Sure, the high points were great, but there was so much mediocrity and very little character development outside of Picard and Data.
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #78 on: August 07, 2019, 03:24:17 AM »
TNG was made to be completely episodic, the characters weren't meant to develop. They were fully formed at the start of the show, same till the end. It's only till the movies do they get some YMMV(Dune buggy) development. Picard goes through some serious **** yet is completely fine the next episode. Four lights, living a lifetime in a day, locutus. Data never used the emotion chip because that would outright break the episodic format.

They do have some casually linked episodes like Data's/Lore/origin arc which being an emotionless android means he doesn't change, Leah Barhams doesn't stay on the ship, Moriarty gets trapped in a cube universe, Barclay doesn't appear often enough to matter getting more development in Voyager. Picard, Riker, Troi, Crusher, Worf doesn't change one bit. They reset every time. As much as Voyager is a the known reset button show mostly by ignoring it's premise, it's has far more serialisation.

TNG's writing is perfectly fine. Your misunderstanding of what the show is and the 90's TV production ethos is throwing you off target. Shows then aimmed for syndication. To do this TNG is a procedural, monster appears, spacehole, holodeck does weird thing, alien possession in a self contained episodes with static characters are much easier to write can produce an arbitrary number of episodes.

Soft/Serialised shows like Babylon 5, Stargate/DS9 format were the exceptions. Prestige TV wasn't really a concept, they made for TV miniseries, direct to video which are movies of sorts made on a TV budget.

UK/AUS/NZ and Animé are different favouring much shorter, planned out shows or the other extreme which shows that go one forever which are much rarer in American productions due to different budgeting structure. Coronation street, Doctor Who, Neighbours, Shortland street, Conan. The vast majority of Animé is serialised. In Coronation street you could be on the show until you died irl decades later.
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #79 on: August 07, 2019, 05:30:16 AM »
>Picard goes through some serious **** yet is completely fine the next episode. Four lights, living a lifetime in a day, locutus.

In defense of TNG, the next episode after Locutus, Picard isn't better, he literally has a complete breakdown and considers leaving Starfleet.  It's the episode after *that* where he's all better.

But the S4E2 is a great episode.
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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #80 on: August 13, 2019, 04:40:13 PM »
CBS and Viacom have/are apparently just merged(again) this hour. So this triggers some new interesting things for Star Trek.

Part of the reason Star Trek has been so weird lately is because there is a separation between CBS OG Star Trek and Paramount Star Trek with the same characters.
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Offline Spak-Spang

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #81 on: August 14, 2019, 07:07:28 AM »
I think when they needed to and COULD bring character development they did.  But the series was episodic, however, I do feel that the characters did grow. Were their giant arcs where the characters changed for the entire series.  NO.  But, seriously, that doesn't happen regularly in real life for adults either.  But if you take what the characters went through, as a combination of their character and keep it in the background you can kinda see true character development.

Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #82 on: September 03, 2019, 05:27:36 AM »
I finally got a chance to sit down and watch What We Left Behind, the documentary about Deep Space 9 from last year, and now I wish I'd done this a lot sooner. It's really incredible, a look behind the scenes and at the memories of the cast and crew. If you're a fan of the show I can't recommend it highly enough. And the parts where the cast are reading hate mail from the time about how the show wasn't Star Trek and all the characters were awful really reminded me of parts of this thread.
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #83 on: September 03, 2019, 02:15:55 PM »
Big difference is that DS9 is good.

Hated the hell out of Kai Winn, but I was meant to.
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #84 on: September 03, 2019, 06:15:10 PM »
That's not what a lot of people thought at the time.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #85 on: September 03, 2019, 06:33:12 PM »
I tried to watch Voyager up through the end of the 2nd season (where I gave up on the show), but I basically skipped Trek TV from the end of TNG to the beginning of Enterprise. It's part of the reason why I like Enterprise: I didn't have a decade of Star Trek fatigue to spoil the mood.

I didn't see DS9 until it was out on DVD, and it's...fine. I respect it a lot for what it did to stand apart from other Trek series (and, IMO, pulled off better than Babylon 5 did), and if it got a proper BluRay release I'd pick it up. However, as much as I respect it, to me it's a show that took 4 seasons to get to the goddamn point and another 2 for anything to actually HAPPEN. It's such a slow burn, and the non-Dominion episodes are tired, standard Trek and usually terrible. But maybe I only feel that way because I didn't see it when it aired, and the ONE thing I ever heard about show was "Oh man! Just wait for the Dominion War!"

Yeah, "wait" is certainly the thing you'll be doing, alright.

I like DS9, but I only "love" seasons 6 & 7. But man, what a couple of seasons those were.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 06:34:56 PM by broodwars »
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #86 on: September 03, 2019, 06:58:27 PM »
I'd love to see a remastered Bluray release of DS9. Part of the documentary was one of the battle scenes from Sacrifice of Angels, where they're trying to punch through the Cardassian and Dominion fleet and retake the station before they deactivate the minefield, redone in modern CG, and it's just stunning.
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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #87 on: September 03, 2019, 07:01:39 PM »
They still crop dogs ears in the future?
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #88 on: September 03, 2019, 07:07:04 PM »
I'd love to see a remastered Bluray release of DS9. Part of the documentary was one of the battle scenes from Sacrifice of Angels, where they're trying to punch through the Cardassian and Dominion fleet and retake the station before they deactivate the minefield, redone in modern CG, and it's just stunning.

Unfortunately, the TNG BluRay restoration project was apparently incredibly expensive and sold poorly since we'd already been fleeced once for the extremely expensive DVDs. I believe Paramount came out and said that DS9 would be even more expensive to restore and would sell even worse, so they weren't bothering.
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #89 on: September 03, 2019, 07:09:35 PM »
Yeah, I heard that as well. More expensive to produce and a less popular show. That's a shame, because it could really use it.
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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #90 on: September 03, 2019, 08:03:08 PM »
I think if they sold Voyager and DS9 as a bundle it would sell pretty well.
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #91 on: September 03, 2019, 08:51:50 PM »
I can definitely see why you might drop Voyager as by 2nd season if not sooner it ignores the premise on and off, mostly off. Janeway is good but a lot of the characters history do get abandoned or used somewhat embarrassingly. Kes was terrible and I am indifferent to Nelix. Kicks into high gear when 7 of 9 comes in and Doctor becomes something more. 7 of 9 signalled the end of static characters and re-engagement with the premise.

When there was a bad episode everything pre-2009 it was usually not because it was badly constructed on a basic level like not being able to keep it straight within a scene, an act or the entire episode. It would be some lazy "Warp Particles" or have a bad or boring or reheated premise.

DS9 from the get go had very diverse and distinct characters that kept true to themselves that evolved over time naturally. Who didn't enjoy Dulkat chew the scenery, Miles must suffer episodes, Keiko the worse wife, Quark side deals, Basheir's snottiness and his later entanglements, hating on Winn, Kira finding her independence from her troubled past, Odo's history and sparing with Quark, Solaon. Worf awkwardness when reconnecting with being Klingon. Sisko shouting, unique relationship with Dax and his annoyance of being the Emissary while openly exploiting it to deal with the BS.

STD has none of that, it's just LOST. The entire crew can die in a fire.

Unfortunately, the TNG BluRay restoration project was apparently incredibly expensive and sold poorly since we'd already been fleeced once for the extremely expensive DVDs. I believe Paramount came out and said that DS9 would be even more expensive to restore and would sell even worse, so they weren't bothering.
Definitely picked the the wrong one to remaster first between the two as they thought the $$$ was endless and TNG VFX didn't matter where in DS 9 where there is far more reason to update.

less popular show.
At the time yes as had to deal with TNG at it's peak and later competition with Voyager leading to too much of a good thing. DS9 inverts is years later as the long shadow of TNG faded and the depth of the show became more apparent along with it's realism when dealing with issues. I watched both as a teen, TNG is easier to digest, it's not as satisfying as DS9 or TOS when dealing with said issues when viewed with increased maturity. If you asked me back then I would have said TNG far admittedly shallow or over weighted reasons.

It comes down to whether you want the safe formula of TNG or DS9's dynamic realism.

If there this is anything to go by DS9 only really needs rescan, 16:9 and cleaning. As much as I hate, loath CBS for raw absolute incompetent and malice money would be given.


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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #92 on: September 03, 2019, 09:03:18 PM »
That alone would be an improvement, but here's the redone CG from What We Left Behind:


https://youtu.be/AbO2MqWPoQM

I'd love to see the whole Dominion War that way.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #93 on: September 03, 2019, 09:13:10 PM »
Definitely picked the the wrong one to remaster first between the two as they thought the $$$ was endless and TNG VFX didn't matter where in DS 9 where there is far more reason to update.

Yeah, no. Because the original effects were shot on video (as opposed to the actors being shot on film), they rebuilt all the TNG effects from scratch and even fixed a ton of continuity problems the original run had like shooting phasers from the deflector dish, etc. Unfortunately, they also "fixed" a lot of easter eggs where viewscreens originally referenced Muppet history instead of character history because "no one's going to see it" in the original broadcast era.

Yeah, TNG had far, FAR fewer space battles, but it was still an effects-laden show that had to be completely overhauled for High Definition. It is also LEAGUES more popular than DS9 ever was, and was by far the easier sell for such an expensive project. DS9 also had the effects on video, so they'd have had to do the same thing there for a "lesser" show. They didn't get the effects in an easier-to-remaster matter until Voyager switched to CG.

Paramount probably could have made the HD remastering project sell if they hadn't sold the goddamn DVD sets for these shows for $100 - $150 a season. And if I remember correctly, the TNG BluRay Seasons were individually just as expensive the 2nd time around. They poisoned the well.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 09:16:17 PM by broodwars »
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #94 on: September 03, 2019, 09:16:14 PM »
The last two seasons of DS9 had their effects done in CG too, but of course the level of CG available now goes well beyond what you could do on a TV budget in the 90s.
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #95 on: September 03, 2019, 09:59:48 PM »
The CG feels, incomplete, off. It's like they picked incomplete texture material and shadows too soft to be in space. It's more of a videogame cut scene. The problems really stand out when you compare it with the models.

DS9 also used film and was safe for 16:9 unlike TNG. They used used models also shot on film the vast majority of the time over laid with CGI phasers etc which could do with some work although I wouldn't advocate for wholesale CGI replacement if model source material was available. While redoing every VFX shot with CG would be more consistent across the show, the model are too awesome to sideline.

I said TNG's special effects didn't matter much to the show, it was comparatively unimportant to what was happening. You didn't watch TNG for being pretty given how meh the action is regardless of fidelity. Firing on the Borg was lame even back then. There are a couple stand outs like exploding the Enterprise and the alien admiral.

Modernising TOS effects was eh, losing all it's charm.
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #96 on: September 11, 2019, 04:50:30 AM »
LOL STD drove off the only legit writer they ever had. Everyone there should be ashamed. He was probably the only person they had who had the slimiest chances of turning that around if you subscribe to "First 1-2 season are always rough".

The irony is too much. Right down to having an episode titled "Context is for kings".
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #97 on: September 11, 2019, 05:46:04 AM »
My god, how sad must your life be if this is what you choose to do with your time?
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #98 on: September 11, 2019, 06:00:36 AM »
I doesn't take much time to read an article and this popped up in general entertainment news. The news come to you these days and you can take less than 10 seconds to get what you want.

Do you really think I hit up google, type in Star Trek to find the next bit of **** show to laugh at. If you do this more power to you. I am a bit disappointed you keep making so many bad assumptions about other people.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #99 on: September 11, 2019, 07:06:34 AM »
I doesn't take much time to read an article and this popped up in general entertainment news. The news come to you these days and you can take less than 10 seconds to get what you want.

Do you really think I hit up google, type in Star Trek to find the next bit of **** show to laugh at. If you do this more power to you. I am a bit disappointed you keep making so many bad assumptions about other people.

You didn't post a link to the article.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 07:15:06 AM by broodwars »
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