Author Topic: Revolution "Easy to Port" to, Claims Nintendo  (Read 20824 times)

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Offline odifiend

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RE: Revolution
« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2005, 08:21:59 AM »
Momentum influences next gen sales, yes, but regardless of the Playstation 2 selling 80 million systems, how many systems has the PS3 sold?  Nintendo has proved that alienating 3rd parties can stop any accumulated momentum.  Using recent reports, I predict the same for Sony meaning this gen's market leader has little bearing on next gen.
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Offline Avinash_Tyagi

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RE:Revolution
« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2005, 09:12:41 AM »
So far this argument has been centered around why the shell isn needed and whether it shows the Revwand as being inferior.  

What's not being taken into account is how this in fact makes the Revwand superior to all other controls, because while the Revwand can control games found not only on all other consoles, it can also control other types of games not found on any other console, its far more versatile than the 360 or PS3 controllers in that regard, because any game found on those systems are possible on the REV, but many games found on the Rev will not be possible on those systems.

As for the fear that most 3rd parties will use the shell only, so what?  Who buys nintendo systems for third party games?

People buy Nintendo for Mario, Zelda, Animal Crossing, Metroid, Pikmin, Nintendogs and so on.  And you'd better realize that nintendo games will not use the shell.

Third parties are there to fill the gaps between first party titles and if the Shell is needed to keep them around so be it, but the big draw will still be the ninty made games, lets also not forget that some devs are more daring an willing to try to dev for the wand, and that many more will follow after ninty shows them how its done.

So basically the whole people won't buy the Rev to play downgraded versions of PS3 and 360 games is perfectly right, they won't, but they wouldn't anyways, they'll buy it to play Zelda, Mario, AC, etc.

Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Revolution
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2005, 10:15:50 AM »
"What's not being taken into account is how this in fact makes the Revwand superior to all other controls, because while the Revwand can control games found not only on all other consoles, it can also control other types of games not found on any other console, its far more versatile than the 360 or PS3 controllers in that regard, because any game found on those systems are possible on the REV, but many games found on the Rev will not be possible on those systems."

I agree with that.  But Nintendo isn't really promoting that.  It's widely assumed the shell is just for ports.

"Who buys nintendo systems for third party games?"

Ten years ago when Nintendo was a relevent force in gaming a lot of people did.  Nintendo's problems are all because people have adopted this attitude that a Ninendo console is just for Nintendo games.  Why else do many third party games on the Cube flop?  And I'm not just talking about crummy ports.  There are good third party games that get ignored.

Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Revolution
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2005, 11:10:08 AM »
I have to agree with Ian on that, you don't buy a system for Nintendo games, you buy it for games. If this boils down to "Nintendo or the rest of the industry" I wouldn't side with Nintendo. I bought the Cube because I wanted games that differ from what I played on the PC. Ended up buying a PS2 because the Cube didn't offer enough. Now I'm no longer even really looking at the GC shelf in stores because I know there are no really interesting games coming out for the system anymore. The PS2 on the other hand is getting lots of support. I have bought two Cube games this year and the system is gathering dust most of the time. That shouldn't happen. And that's the problem if you have only Nintendo giving the platform any real support.

Offline Hostile Creation

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RE: Revolution
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2005, 11:21:26 AM »
"We basically have an NES controller with motion control. Nintendo's taking a step forward after taking three steps back."

Wow, that's stunningly idiotic.  How is providing the next step toward completely immersive games (which will have NO buttons at all) taking three steps back?  I fail to recognize the correlation.  Would adding twelve buttons to the controller be a more reasonable solution, making games even more complex and alienating?  Further running the moronic "gamer" perspective deeper into the ditch it's dug itself into?

The only reason we had controllers and buttons in the first place is because we weren't capable of providing immersive technology.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Revolution
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2005, 01:55:28 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: KDR_11k
I have to agree with Ian on that, you don't buy a system for Nintendo games, you buy it for games. If this boils down to "Nintendo or the rest of the industry" I wouldn't side with Nintendo. I bought the Cube because I wanted games that differ from what I played on the PC. Ended up buying a PS2 because the Cube didn't offer enough. Now I'm no longer even really looking at the GC shelf in stores because I know there are no really interesting games coming out for the system anymore. The PS2 on the other hand is getting lots of support. I have bought two Cube games this year and the system is gathering dust most of the time. That shouldn't happen. And that's the problem if you have only Nintendo giving the platform any real support.



That is funny, for me it is the other way around. In fact I sold my PS2 because of the lack of unique or even fun games, all I see when I go to the PS2 section is alot of mainstream games like GTA, which I really do not care about. The only game I care to play for it is SoC, but I am not buying a PS2 just for one game.
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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE:Revolution
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2005, 02:27:48 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
The only reason we had controllers and buttons in the first place is because we weren't capable of providing immersive technology.

Quoted for freaking truth...
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Offline ssj4_android

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RE: Revolution
« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2005, 02:48:55 PM »
I call BS on being easy to port to. I'd think going from one system to one a half or a third as powerful as the rest won't be easy. Third parties developed for the lowest common denominator with the PS2. But with Nintendo, and a system so much weaker than the rest, I don't see that happening. And, there do seem to be quite a few smaller game developers releasing games on Live Arcade.

Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Revolution
« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2005, 10:45:28 PM »
That is funny, for me it is the other way around. In fact I sold my PS2 because of the lack of unique or even fun games

Compared to the PC market the PS2 is filled to the brim with innovation.

Offline Avinash_Tyagi

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RE:Revolution
« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2005, 03:13:31 AM »
Quote

Ten years ago when Nintendo was a relevent force in gaming a lot of people did. Nintendo's problems are all because people have adopted this attitude that a Ninendo console is just for Nintendo games. Why else do many third party games on the Cube flop? And I'm not just talking about crummy ports. There are good third party games that get ignored.


Not really, the good third party games, Soul calibur 2, RE4, Viewtiful Joe, etc. sold better on the cube than on the PS2 or Xbox, so when a good third party game arrives people pick it up.

the problem is most third party games released on the cube are crap on a stick at best, and then people wonder why third party games flop.

Offline wandering

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RE:Revolution
« Reply #60 on: December 10, 2005, 04:45:58 AM »
Quote

I thought all of those ideas were brilliant the second I saw them. Ever since I saw Kirby's Tilt 'n' Tumble I thought "they gotta put motion control into a standard controller". But the remote doesn't just add to what's there like Nintendo's previous controllers did. It takes away previously standard features. We basically have an NES controller with motion control.


I'm not sure, Ian, how you couild be happy with the n64 controller but not happy with the REV controller... becasue the n64 controller was almost as big of a departure. With the n64, they replaced the d-pad with a hard-to-use analogue stick (oh, I know they allowed the use of a d-pad on the controller....by utilizing a multi-pring solution that was far more clumsy and confusing than the multi-attachment solution they're using for the rev, but that's beside the point. The point is, you couldn't, say, play Mario 64 with a d-pad if you wanted to.) And, they replaced the snes' diamond button configuration with 2 primary buttons and what was essentially a second d-pad. And, they removed the long-standard select button. The psx controller was a natural evolution of the snes pad...the n64 controller was, on the other hand, a huge departure.

Of course, if you look closely, almost all of NIntendo's controllers have been huge departures from the norm. The only consistant 'standard' Nintendo has utilized in nearly every one of their controllers/handhelds has been the a and b buttons. Everything else has always traditionally been fair game. With the snes, they gave us the x and y buttons, which were intentionally colored and off-set in such a way so as to make clear they were secondary, in addition to the standard a and b. With the N64, Nintendo replaced the x and y buttons with 4 small c-buttons that were intended more for camera control than action. With the cube, Nintendo replaced the c buttons with 2 secondary, grey, bean-shaped x and y buttons, and added another analogue stick for camera control. With the rev, Nintendo is replacing the x and y buttons again with a d-pad, and is replacing the secondary analogue stick with motion control. Oh the humanity!

IN ADDITION, realizing that a small minority won't be content with the drastic, unbearable change from 6 action buttons, a d-pad, the z-button and 2 analogue sticks to 5 action buttons, a d-pad, 1 analogue stick, and motion control - Nintendo is also providing a traditional shell that mimics the functionality of old school controllers. This in the fine tradition of the n64 controller, which had the unecessary but appreciated addition of a third prong with an old-school d-pad.

So, really, Ian, what on earth is the problem? If Nintendo had replaced the cube controller with a motion controlled wand with no buttons whatsover I could see the merit of your complaints....but, as it stands, does the loss of 2 buttons REALLY mean that much to you?

Quote

Now if the shell and the remote together were the standard then it would be different. It would be like taking what's there and adding a removable motion sensor wand. Maybe in the end that's what we'll get but Nintendo has only really pushed the remote thus far.

What does it matter? The setup you suggest would give devs the option of using either a standard controller + motion control setup and freestyle motion control setup. Since developers already have the option of using both of these setups (as well as the undoutably superior wand + nunchaku setup), why do you care what Nintendo 'pushes'? Developers have the ability to use whatever they feel is best for their games, isn't that what you'd consider to be the important thing?  
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Offline BiLdItUp1

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RE:Revolution
« Reply #61 on: December 10, 2005, 03:08:55 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Avinash_Tyagi
Quote

Ten years ago when Nintendo was a relevent force in gaming a lot of people did. Nintendo's problems are all because people have adopted this attitude that a Nintendo console is just for Nintendo games. Why else do many third party games on the Cube flop? And I'm not just talking about crummy ports. There are good third party games that get ignored.


Not really, the good third party games, Soul calibur 2, RE4, Viewtiful Joe, etc. sold better on the cube than on the PS2 or Xbox, so when a good third party game arrives people pick it up.

the problem is most third party games released on the cube are crap on a stick at best, and then people wonder why third party games flop.



Let's be honest - SC2 sold more because of Link; and RE4 was a flop on the cube as far as I know, or at least, it didn't sell the million+ copies it was capable of, and I'm sure it sold more on PS2 - unless you could give me a link proving me wrong. Viewtiful Joe I don't know about.

But let's be honest - if somethign isn't as groundbreaking as the three games you mentioned, does that mean they could be automatically filed under 'crap?' That seems to be implicitly what you're saying here. There are other games, which I'm sure Ian will be all too happy to list for you, that were ignored because of the perception that Nintendo systems are for Nintendo games, which was only introduced with the n64/Dream Team-related BS. And then pointing to SC2 to justify farming out IP to make things better only makes the perception worse, I suppose.

The perception that third-parties are somehow all inferior to Nintendo - and I'm speaking of the Nintendo of today - just because they are third parties is wrong, discriminatory even. And I don't know how encouraging Nintendo has been to change this idea. Marketing for an exclusive third party GC game, I believe, has never really happened on a large scale.

All that crap said - as a casual gamer, I'm pretty happy with the Cube. I probably play games far less than most people on the site, so game draughts aren't an issue for me. Still, I wish it could have been like the PS2 content-wise, and I'm not sure that Nintendo is doing all they can to make that happen, or if it's even one of their goals.  
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Offline Artimus

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RE:Revolution
« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2005, 04:40:30 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: BiLdItUp1
Let's be honest - SC2 sold more because of Link; and RE4 was a flop on the cube as far as I know, or at least, it didn't sell the million+ copies it was capable of, and I'm sure it sold more on PS2 - unless you could give me a link proving me wrong. Viewtiful Joe I don't know about.


Viewtiful Joe DEFINITELY sold better, like 5 times more at least. RE4 sold much better in America on the GCN (500,000 or so to what'll be less than 200,000 on the PS2) but better on the PS2 in japan (probably similar numbers, in reverse). SC2 may have sold more because of Link, but both the other consoles had exclusive characters too.

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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RE:Revolution
« Reply #63 on: December 10, 2005, 05:01:02 PM »
If I remember right RE4 GC has sold >1million worldwide and RE4 PS2 has sold  <350,000 in the US & Jap(no idea about Euro), but it just came out in Japan about a week or so ago.

Offline BiLdItUp1

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RE: Revolution
« Reply #64 on: December 10, 2005, 05:50:27 PM »
Maybe the games listed then are anomalies, because we could safely say that most third party games sell worse on Cube than other consoles, even though it's installed base difference between it and xbox is only 1 or 2 mil. at best in the US.

As for RE4 PS2 selling less - know that I think about it, it makes sense, since its been out for far less time and has a lot more to compete with. RE4 is one of the only games of its kind on GC, but it's lost in a sea of other action/horror type games available on PS2, even though those games may be inferior.

Link is more popular among GameCube owners than Heihachi among PS2 owners or Spawn among Xbox owners.

On Viewtiful Joe flunking on PS2 - I don't know if I could explain that.  Maybe because of the competition thing again, but I think it's because different games sell well on GC than on PS2; GC gamers may be fundamentally different than PS2 gamers. Or something. I dunno, I don't wanna think right now. Gnight.
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Offline Artimus

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RE: Revolution
« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2005, 05:51:49 PM »
Anyone else think Katamary Damacy was far better suited to GCN? Not to mention the DS...

Offline Stimutacs Addict

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RE: Revolution
« Reply #66 on: December 10, 2005, 07:49:01 PM »
yes but the ps2 is omnipresent this generation. if you are going to publish a game then you are a fool to not consider the ps2.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Revolution
« Reply #67 on: December 10, 2005, 09:40:42 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: KDR_11k
That is funny, for me it is the other way around. In fact I sold my PS2 because of the lack of unique or even fun games

Compared to the PC market the PS2 is filled to the brim with innovation.


Like what? I hate when people use arguments like "Well I have a ton of reasons", all I want is some examples of unique and FUN games. None of the big name games are innovative, except for a couple like Shadow of the Collossus and Ico (though even they weren't big). All I see on the PS2 is a bunch of RPGs, ports, mainstream series like FF, MGS, GTA and racing games none of which I care about (I buy all the ports for Xbox). My PS2 gathered dust for 1 year because of the lack of games that I cared about that were solely on PS2.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Revolution
« Reply #68 on: December 10, 2005, 10:28:18 PM »
There's been a long time since the PC had any game like Final Fantasy. MGS and GTA I don't care about and I think those are available for the PC, too. On the PC it's all FPS, RTS, mediocre Adventure or MMORPG. Even the traditional D&D RPG is dying out and the differences between those other PC games are shrinking (Doom 3 is exactly the same as Half Life 2, FEAR or Quake 4, RTSes except for Perimeter are feeling more and more alike too, MMORPGs aren't fun in first place). Sure, many PS2 games may be standard fare for consoles but hell, I never had a PS1 so I don't care (and we're comparing it to the PC market).

Out of my small collection of games there are many that have no somewhat recent PC complements (the ones not listed are 2d fighters, the PC has TONS of those): Project Zero, Rez*, Nightshade, Final Fantasy X, Crimson Tears*, Tekken 5, Star Ocean: Till The End Of Time, Gungrave: Overdose, Dead Or Alive 2*, Xenosaga Ep. 2. Whether you find any of those fun is your choice but Katamari Damacy and God Of War seem to be very popular and fun games as well (both of which aren't sold in this country).

*= I know those suck but there are no PC titles like them.

Offline Hostile Creation

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RE: Revolution
« Reply #69 on: December 11, 2005, 12:27:47 PM »
" Anyone else think Katamary Damacy was far better suited to GCN? Not to mention the DS..."

Absolutely.  And Okami, which I may get a PS2 just to play.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Revolution
« Reply #70 on: December 11, 2005, 08:45:37 PM »
KD used the analog sticks in a symmetric fashion, you know how much people complain about that when you do it on the GC.

Offline Hostile Creation

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RE: Revolution
« Reply #71 on: December 11, 2005, 10:37:41 PM »
Ah yeah.  I've only ever seen it played, so I tend to forget about the control scheme.
Still, no excuse for putting it on PSP and not DS.  Also, no one should have even thought about putting Okami on the PS2.  It was made for DS.  Or better, Revolution.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Revolution
« Reply #72 on: December 12, 2005, 06:53:31 AM »
"I'm not sure, Ian, how you couild be happy with the n64 controller but not happy with the REV controller... becasue the n64 controller was almost as big of a departure."

The N64 controller just took what was on the SNES controller and added to it (except the select button).  Every SNES game ever made except for like Super Scope or mouse games could be played perfectly on the N64 controller.  All you have to do is map select to one of the C buttons or something.  I'd say that Nintendo did a far better job on keeping what was already there on the N64 than they even did on the Cube since the Cube's d-pad was so lazily thrown on.

"why do you care what Nintendo 'pushes'? Developers have the ability to use whatever they feel is best for their games, isn't that what you'd consider to be the important thing?"

Nintendo's enthusiasm or lack thereof plays a big part in what gets widely supported.  Any third party could have gone online with the Cube but in the end only Sega used the feature.  That's because Nintendo clearly wasn't interested in the feature themselves.  They didn't push it or promote it and in fact discouraged its use with all their damage control about how they weren't going online.  If Nintendo is all "rah rah the remote is all you need" then third parties won't use the shell.  Nintendo themselves have to support it and push it as important or no one else will take the initiative.

And anyone who doesn't realize that the PS2 library is much more innovative than the current PC gaming scene is blind.  PC gaming is like five games being made over and over again.  It's a shame because in the early 90s PC gaming was really innovative.

Offline Kairon

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RE:Revolution
« Reply #73 on: December 12, 2005, 07:41:03 AM »
Hmm... so which would you rather have Ian?

Would you prefer Nintendo going "rah rah rah" over the rev controller and developers jumping onto that bandwagon wholesale since Nintendo is leading on how awesome the controller makes gaming...

...or would it be good (or bad) for developers to resort to traditional control safety with Nintendo taking the lead in getting the shell widely adopted versus just the revmote?

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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Revolution
« Reply #74 on: December 12, 2005, 08:25:16 AM »
Why can't they just get it so that developers use whatever is appropriate for the situation?  Like I've said before both parts together should be considered the standard.