Post by: Acefondu on April 03, 2007, 02:51:56 AM
With all these lackluster titles bombarding the Wii, will that hurt its image? I look at the store shelves and see nothing but, "Ports with waggle control right out of the box!" and shake my head in despair.
The Wii is becoming a success. But good games have to sustain it, or it will become a flash in the pan once people figure out developers aren't even trying with this system.
To compare, the DS had a similar problem, but not quite. The DS wasn't bombarded with garbage, instead it just didn't have anything. A year went by and all of the sudden every great game on the planet came to the DS solidifying its success.
But I do wonder though, when I look at the PS2 and how it began. It started out with some of the worst games, and loads of them, and steamrolled over the competition.
So, what do you guys think? Will the consistant flow of steaming poo on Wii garner it a poor reputation? Or, will it be the reason to pick one up due to the sheer volume of games?
Post by: Rhoq on April 03, 2007, 03:39:37 AM
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Originally posted by: Acefondu
To compare, the DS had a similar problem, but not quite. The DS wasn't bombarded with garbage, instead it just didn't have anything. A year went by and all of the sudden every great game on the planet came to the DS solidifying its success.
Not true. The DS had plenty of rushed ports with touch screen controls tacked on to it and a ton of kid-friendly games based on the latest animated films that were in theaters at that time. The Wii is experiencing the same thing, following almost the exact same time table. One or two good games are expected in the Spring (like with the DS). Higher profile titles are expected late into the Summer, like what? Yep, the DS. Finally - the "killer" apps are expected to hit during the crucial "holiday" season - just like the DS.
Post by: Acefondu on April 03, 2007, 03:45:58 AM
I think the market on handhelds is different than consoles. I shouldn't have compared the two to begin with.
Consoles seem to gain reputations quicker than handhelds. I'm just worried the Wii's will be damaged by the lack of third party effort.
Post by: Rhoq on April 03, 2007, 03:53:39 AM
I know it's been en vogue for years but it's hard to blame the 3rd parties when Nintendo was late getting Wii development kits to them. The few thirds parties that were still supporting the GameCube could only do so much to tweak those projects to get them onto the Wii as quickly as possible (a/k/a a rushed port). Unfortunately most of those games were geared towards kids.
The good stuff is coming soon - you just need to be patient. Every console launch line-up sucks for the first 8 to 10 months.
Post by: Acefondu on April 03, 2007, 03:59:01 AM
I guess one point that wasn't addressed was the fact that both UbiSoft and EA have been profiting off Wii substantially. That gold digging mind set could rub off on other (and better) third party developers.
Post by: Rhoq on April 03, 2007, 04:06:15 AM
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Originally posted by: Acefondu
Good points.
I guess one point that wasn't addressed was the fact that both UbiSoft and EA have been profiting off Wii substantially. That gold digging mind set could rub off on other (and better) third party developers.
UbiSoft tried with Red Steel. It sold well even though most reviewers panned it. As a launch title, I was satisfied enough with the game. I haven't tried any of their other Wii games, but none of them seemed to have reviewed well.
EA has 2 critically acclaimed Wii games on the market already (Madden 2007 and The Godfather: Blackhand Edition). Need For Speed: Carbon got decent reviews (though the biggest complaint I read over and over again was how the Wii controls added nothing to the overall experience).
Medal Of Honor: Vanguard seems to have stopped EA's Wii momentum dead in it's tracks with all of the less-than-favorable reviews (but the PS2 version doesn't seem to reviewing much better). Hopefully they'll be able to rebound with a solid release soon.
Post by: Pittbboi on April 03, 2007, 04:18:50 AM
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I see your point about the DS, but I still think it's a fair comparison since both systems share the same philosophy and target demo.
Not exactly true.
There's a very important demographic that has made every Nintendo handheld a smashing success but won't do a thing for them in the console market.
The "If I buy my kid this they'll shut up in the car and/or in public" demographic.
Post by: Rhoq on April 03, 2007, 04:24:30 AM
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Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
I see your point about the DS, but I still think it's a fair comparison since both systems share the same philosophy and target demo.
Not exactly true.
There's a very important demographic that has made every Nintendo handheld a smashing success but won't do a thing for them in the console market.
The "If I buy my kid this they'll shut up in the car and/or in public" demographic.
Hahaha
Very true, however that demo now also makes up some of the people playing a DS themselves thanks to Brain Training and Cooking Mama.
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 03, 2007, 05:55:46 AM
It's one thing to bemoan the 3rd party Wii support as though it's the end of the world, but it's another thing entirely to make a compelling argument which suggests that the Wii is in a poor position software-wise because it can only be in a poor position in COMPARISON to its competition, and the fact that the 360 has had a year head start should be noted for the comparison.
Post by: MaryJane on April 03, 2007, 06:09:01 AM
Throughout 2007 we are going to be seeing a lot of ports of GC and PS2 games because they are already there and can be cashed in on, on the Wii.
As mentioned before by someone Nintendo was late getting the dev kits out to devs, 2008 IMO is going to be the real testimony for the Wii. There'll be no more excuses, everyone will know how the console race stands, everyone will have had ample time to explore the Wii controls, and the main demographic will be set.
That is really the crux of development for any system. "If we make this kind of game for this system are the owners going to buy it?"
It's been discussed at length that a game like Viva Pinata on the X360 would likely have sold better on the Wii. It is also my belief that a game like LittleBig Planet would also do better on the Wii. It is however, also true that more "mature" games like GTA and Crackdown would do better on the PS3 and X360.
Now it is still early, the Wii only launched 5 1/2 months ago, so it's demographic isn't set in stone quite yet. As of now people are using Nintendo's general (history based and self-promoted) demographic of children(history) and non-gamers(self). The only way to change this perception on both Nintendo's and third party devs minds are sales of mature titles. You want companies to make better games? Support the ones that come close (and are good of course).
Our means of communication with developers is sales, it's the only language producers understand.
Although, the makers of Bioshock are responding to an online petition for a collectors edition of the game. I believe they say they need 5,000 unique signatures to make it, and they already have 19,110. Hopefully this trend continues, but as of now, sales are the main and best method to deliver a message.
Post by: Acefondu on April 03, 2007, 06:26:39 AM
We all know Nintendo is going to creat amazing games, this is about Third Parties.
The point of this topic is in response to Shiggy's comments encouraging 1st string developers give support to the Wii instead of shoving it on their 3rd and 4th string developers.
Think of Basketball. PS3/360 gets the 5 starters, Wii gets the bench team.
So, respond with some insight instead of concluding that this topic was created to encourage "Doom and gloom" theories.
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 03, 2007, 06:40:24 AM
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Originally posted by: Acefondu
Alright Smash you want good third party games for other systems? Ok, RE5, DMC4, FFXIII, MGS4, Halo 3, GTAIV, and the list could go on.
NIGHTS, RE: Umbrella Chronicles, Manhunt 2, DQ: Swords, FF: CC, MySims and the list DEFINITELY goes on because there are titles being announced all the time which we don't even know are in development.
Halo 3 isn't 3rd party, and NONE of those titles are exclusives. The odds of FF13 and MGS4 remaining PS3 exclusive are getting worse by the day. Manhunt 2 isn't an exclusive by title, but with the Wii controls being utilized, it might as well be its own game, and the praise that the Wii version of Godfather is receiving from USA Today is proof that the Wii controls separate the Wii version from the others.
The Wii is four months old as of March 19th. Do you know how long the PS2 was out before GTA3 hit? It was a year.
Plus, the PS2 was just an upgraded PS1 with DVD playback. The Wii is a completely new beast and seeing developers ease into the development of the console with ports is completely expected. We start with ports of existing games redone with Wii controls, then we get new games built from the ground up like the ones I mentioned earlier.
And I wouldn't be concerned at all about the Wii until it actually starts staying on store shelves and you don't need to line up at 4AM outside Wal-Mart to get one (something I did just this past sunday). With the largest installed userbase, the Wii WILL receive the lion's share of 3rd party support, and the Wii is a runaway hit in EVERY territory it's being sold in.
Trying to put a negative spin on the Wii's performance is just silly, and pangs of something which would only be done by someone being paid to do so, since any logical analysis will conclude that the Wii is poised to take the next gen market and rule it with an iron fist.
Post by: ShyGuy on April 03, 2007, 07:12:17 AM
Post by: MaryJane on April 03, 2007, 07:13:21 AM
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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Plus, the PS2 was just an upgraded PS1 with DVD playback. The Wii is a completely new beast and seeing developers ease into the development of the console with ports is completely expected. We start with ports of existing games redone with Wii controls, then we get new games built from the ground up like the ones I mentioned earlier.
The Wii is an upgraded GC with motion controls. It's a bigger jump than PS1 - PS2, but it's still true. Nintendo themselves have made statements that back up that thought.
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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
And I wouldn't be concerned at all about the Wii until it actually starts staying on store shelves and you don't need to line up at 4AM outside Wal-Mart to get one (something I did just this past sunday). With the largest installed userbase, the Wii WILL receive the lion's share of 3rd party support, and the Wii is a runaway hit in EVERY territory it's being sold in.
Trying to put a negative spin on the Wii's performance is just silly, and pangs of something which would only be done by someone being paid to do so, since any logical analysis will conclude that the Wii is poised to take the next gen market and rule it with an iron fist.
You're right and you're guessing (possibly wrong). There are still more Xbox360's than Wii's, when Wii sales level out like mentioned, then we will know where things stand. Also, despite the PS3 lackluster start, and game drought they still have opportunities to come back, especially if they throw enough money around to keep MGS and FF exclusive.
I agree for the most part with your post, but there is another side to the equation.
Post by: Acefondu on April 03, 2007, 07:17:38 AM
And are you saying Shiggy is wrong then? Was he wrong to call out third parties and tell them to shape up?
You guys are completly missing the point and arguing as if I was a troll or something. Rhoq had some good comments read his.
The fact stands that the Wii is currently being treated as the porathon with waggle console.
I mentioned in my first post that the Wii is a success Smash, but can it last with these shoddy games, or is it their existance that will propell the system? Analize the situation instead of spouting fanboyisms.
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 03, 2007, 07:19:20 AM
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Originally posted by: MaryJane The Wii is an upgraded GC with motion controls. It's a bigger jump than PS1 - PS2, but it's still true. Nintendo themselves have made statements that back up that thought.
Yes, but the motion controls are what made most devs so hesitant to develop for the console when it was first announced.
In any case, going from a PS1 to a PS2 was easy. From GC to Wii is another story because the control scheme is so wildly different.
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You're right and you're guessing (possibly wrong). There are still more Xbox360's than Wii's, when Wii sales level out like mentioned, then we will know where things stand. Also, despite the PS3 lackluster start, and game drought they still have opportunities to come back, especially if they throw enough money around to keep MGS and FF exclusive.
I agree for the most part with your post, but there is another side to the equation.
Look at it this way: the Wii selling out like crazy is evidence of how strong it is. By Ace's own logic, the Wii is lacking in game support and it's STILL selling out everywhere.
If the Wii can't even stay on store shelves without strong 3rd party lineup, what is it going to do WITH a 3rd party lineup?
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Originally posted by: Acefondu And are you saying Shiggy is wrong then? Was he wrong to call out third parties and tell them to shape up?
Yes.
He's saying what 3rd parties will be forced to understand soon anyway. When the Wii passes the 360 in sales and becomes the world's dominant next-gen console, they'll be forced to heed his words and push better dev teams over to it.
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The fact stands that the Wii is currently being treated as the porathon with waggle console.
Name me a console that ISN'T a portathon for the first 6 months of its life.
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I mentioned in my first post that the Wii is a success Smash, but can it last with these shoddy games, or is it their existance that will propell the system? Analize the situation instead of spouting fanboyisms.
Nothing I've said is fanboyism. EVERYTHING I have argued is from a logical perspective.
FACT: 3rd party developers develop the most games for the console with the largest potential audience because it means the highest number of sales.
FACT: The Wii is closing in on the 360's total sales and doing so in less than HALF the time it took for the 360 to reach the same numbers.
FACT: Even in a sh*thole like NH, you STILL cannot find Wiis on store shelves and need to wait outside a Wal-Mart at 6AM in order to get one (I did this this week).
FACT: Despite having the worst graphics of last gen, the PS2 received the most 3rd party support because it had the highest installed userbase.
FACT: It costs significantly more to develop for a console which requires HD support, pushing niche games which would have been on the PS2 last gen to the Wii this gen.
Where is the fanboyism in any of this? This is just a simple analysis of how the industry works, and with that analysis, the Wii is shaping up to be the clear winner.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on April 03, 2007, 07:23:49 AM
Really, the mods should just make an official thread, call it "Post rants, praise and criticism about third party support" and sticky-fy it and then EVERYONE gets to talk about it there, rather than make a new thread every week or so.
Post by: MaryJane on April 03, 2007, 07:27:40 AM
Most people are buying a Wii because of WiiSports, eventually this isn't going to be enough anymore. That probably won't be for awhile because I still can't buy my own friggin Wii, and sharing is getting more and more annoying.
You are right though, once the 3rd party support reaches full saturation it will be interesting to see how things go.
However, unless I'm mistaken this is about the current third party support. There have been a few third party gems, Red Steel(took me awhile to get into but I enjoyed), Raving Rabbids (once you unlock everything its good for a quick play with friends over), Madden 07 (beautiful use of the Wii-mote by a third party), and others that I haven't gotten to play yet, and cant' think of right now.
However the majority of the games are ports and licences. Even if a port is really good, it's still a port, how much better would the Godfather be if it was developed specifically for the Wii from the ground up like Madden 07? Madden is an established franchise, but EA still built the game ground up for the Wii. (Not exactly ground up since the basic formula was there but you get my point)
Post by: Acefondu on April 03, 2007, 07:29:22 AM
If the Wii can't even stay on store shelves without strong 3rd party lineup, what is it going to do WITH a 3rd party lineup?
See, that's all I wanted. An honest answer to a pretty direct question. And I agree Smash as sited with all Nintendo consloes they sell great with just Nintendo games alone.
(that's why I got my Wii)
Post by: ShyGuy on April 03, 2007, 07:31:58 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 03, 2007, 07:32:16 AM
Did 3rd parties ignore the PS2 because people bought it primarily for GTA3 and DVD playback?
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Originally posted by: Acefondu And I agree Smash as sited with all Nintendo consloes they sell great with just Nintendo games alone.
Keep in mind, though, that there aren't even that many Nintendo games out yet.
All of the heavy hitters won't be out until starting later this year: MP3, Galaxy, SSBB, Strikers, etc.
I'd almost hazard a guess that Nintendo would like to hold these titles off as long as possible until they can meet Wii demand. Otherwise, it would be impossible to discern an increase in Wii sales since the Wii would have sold out anyway.
Post by: Acefondu on April 03, 2007, 07:36:45 AM
drools...
Still it's kinda funny to hear my own arguments echoed back at me after console launch. I made similar points in other forums but I was curious to see what I'd draw out on this one.
The market is yet a fickle mistress, time will tell in the end.
Post by: Ian Sane on April 03, 2007, 07:39:21 AM
The only potential problem I see is a possible market seperation between gamers and non-gamers. In Japan I don't think Wii owners are even that interested in "gamer games". The gamer drift over there seems so severe that the amount of hardcore gamers in Japan is small and for all we know could be the handful of people who bought Xboxes. Right now despite sales third parties seem to be putting their A material on the PS3 and Xbox 360, usually with the games starting off on the PS3 and getting ported. What if the Wii continues to sell remarkably well but the userbase is mostly non-gamers? In other words Nintendo hasn't taken away customers from the competition but has built a userbase entirely out of the previously untapped market. What if that userbase is content with the types of games they're getting now and third parties continue to give the Wii junk and the Xbox 360 the real stuff because that's what makes the most sense based on the different audiences? So the consoles are in fact not competing like Nintendo so often claims. It would like if Archie Comics outsold DC. Archie has the bigger userbase but the hardcore comic fans don't care because they're not interested in Archie and they don't lose anything. So in the end the Xbox 360 is more or less the market leader from the perspective of a hardcore gamer because it gets the same support that the market leader would have gotten if Nintendo had never tapped the non-gamer market. The gamer games don't show up on the Wii because the non-gamer audience won't buy them.
But that's a worse case scenario and I don't think gaming has enough universal appeal to really have that level of seperation. Gaming is requires effort which isn't popular with the mainstream. Thus the A material will gravitate towards the biggest userbase because the overall market for buying videogames won't be big enough.
The idea of the Wii userbase getting sick of the crappy third party support and thus losing interest seems logical but ironically that's the very reason it probably won't happen. Anyone who cares probably has put off buying a Wii for that very reason.
Post by: Acefondu on April 03, 2007, 07:46:24 AM
Post by: Pittbboi on April 03, 2007, 07:46:56 AM
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I understand that the Wii is doing so well due to the selling power of Wii Sports, but the fact remains, 3rd parties won't IGNORE the Wii if it has a higher installed userbase just because it was Wii Sports that earned it that userbase.
I see what you're saying, and when you just look at the numbers this logic makes sense.
However, the one thing that seriously worries me is that third parties are going to look at those numbers, THEN look at the games on the Wii, and then infer that the majority of those consoles are selling to people who wanted games like Wii Sports and Rayman, and thus make more games of that nature. I think something that people are assuming is that just because the Wii is selling big at the moment, that any game a third party makes is going to sell huge and the numbers are ALL that matters. With Wii Sports selling like hot cakes what makes you think that third parties are going to see it fit to make a game like Metal Gear for Wii? They're going to make what looks like it'll sell and gear whatever they make for who it looks like the console's selling to.
People bring up the PS2 when it comes to high installed userbase, but don't forget that the PS2 was always the "gamer" console. Third parties knew those numbers were made of up of mostly people who played games. Not non-gamers. So it was more of a no-brainer to make those kind of games for the PS2. Not the same with the Wii. Sure, it has the numbers. But I fear that third parties assumptions of who those numbers are made up of are going to be an issue this gen.
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 03, 2007, 08:01:55 AM
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane Right now despite sales third parties seem to be putting their A material on the PS3 and Xbox 360, usually with the games starting off on the PS3 and getting ported. What if the Wii continues to sell remarkably well but the userbase is mostly non-gamers?
The thing is, this "A material" was largely announced for the PS3 prior to the infamous Sony press conference.
And the "non-gamer vs. gamer" argument is irrelevant.
Like I said earlier, did devs avoid the PS2 because its biggest selling feature was DVD playback? When it had the highest sales, it got the best 3rd party support.
Did Konami not release games like Castlevania and Lunar Knights on the DS because of its aim toward non-gamers?
When the Wii achieves the highest userbase, 3rd parties will be FORCED to put their best teams to task on Wii titles because it's where the most money will be.
Also, a lot of titles coming out for the 360/PS3 now had been in development LONG before the Wii took the world by storm. Seeing those titles released is no surprise as these devs need to make their money back on the time they spent developing, but after that, don't be surprised if these teams head to the Wii next.
Post by: Acefondu on April 03, 2007, 08:12:06 AM
Like Capcom making all those Cube games geared toward PS2/Xbox players.
Or Namco putting Baten Kaitos on a system void of RPGs.
So, in some instances user base means very little...or everything. Developers are weird let's leave it there.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on April 03, 2007, 08:21:26 AM
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Originally posted by: Acefondu
Now I used to believe that installed user base was the big thing for a console to achieve. But then I look at developers and some of the strange things they do...
Like Capcom making all those Cube games geared toward PS2/Xbox players.
Or Namco putting Baten Kaitos on a system void of RPGs.
So, in some instances user base means very little...or everything. Developers are weird let's leave it there.
Its true that developers have made weird decisions like that (like how Capcom went port crazy on the PSP whole ignoring the DS), but its hard to deny that around 85 to 90% of developers always go to the console with the highest user base.
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 03, 2007, 08:44:28 AM
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Originally posted by: Acefondu Like Capcom making all those Cube games geared toward PS2/Xbox players.
Or Namco putting Baten Kaitos on a system void of RPGs.
I think just 1 of the Capcom 5 stayed exclusive to the GC, though.
And Kaitos was a joint venture between Namdai and Nintendo, I thought...
Post by: Acefondu on April 03, 2007, 09:18:17 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 03, 2007, 09:23:28 AM
As a 3rd party, it's never a good idea to burn any bridges, and there's no better example of that than the GC vs. the Wii.
Post by: Acefondu on April 03, 2007, 09:25:24 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 03, 2007, 09:27:01 AM
For example, last gen, all Sonic games sold better on the GC, despite also appearing on the PS2.
Post by: Ian Sane on April 03, 2007, 09:39:40 AM
Or Namco putting Baten Kaitos on a system void of RPGs."
Sometimes it makes sense to do something like that so that a game stands out. Baten Kaitos would have been ignored on the PS2 where RPGs are a dime a dozen. But Cube fans were RPG starved so the game became a higher profile title. It got more attention because Cube fans were looking for ANY RPG.
Probably the best example of this kind of thing is Dead Or Alive. On the Saturn, Dreamcast and PS2 it was just another 3D fighting game well below Tekken and Virtua Fighter on the totem pole. But on the Xbox it was by default the top fighting game on the system and thus became a bigger deal. Hell it became the big Xbox title in Japan mostly because there was nothing else.
Post by: Deguello on April 03, 2007, 11:13:24 AM
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So, what do you guys think?
Know what I think? Poll thread. Locked.
