Author Topic: A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?  (Read 35675 times)

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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE:A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #50 on: September 16, 2005, 05:57:48 PM »
IGN has made a mock-up of what they think the Shell will look like here...Obviously the controller will be spiffed up in a sexy manner to match the system and remote, but it's very nice...
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Offline PaLaDiN

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RE: A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #51 on: September 16, 2005, 06:28:25 PM »
Yeah, I like that controller.

I always wanted a Wavebird with rumble.
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Offline Rellik

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RE:A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #52 on: September 16, 2005, 06:47:36 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Artimus
I don't think 2D games are a very good argument against the Rev. Developers have mostly abandoned them.


... who was saying that?  If you're referring to me, if you think I'm arguing AGAINST the Rev, then you haven't been reading anything, so I might as well stop here.

1. I'm not arguing against the Rev - I find the Rev to be simply astounding in its greatness, or at least the greatness of its potential.  My point is that what the Rev brings to the table doesn't erase the need that some games have for the current (now somewhat quaint) style of d-pad/analog stick and buttons setup.

2. I didn't mean just 2D games, but any game that takes to heart precision and speed, such as 2D Fighters and action games, but also 3D Fighters (Soul Calibur, DoA, etc) and 3D action games (Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, etc)

If you don't like those types of games, I understand - but as far as I know, Rev doesn't attempt to exclude those types of games from its repertoire, and in fact, actively embraces them through its virtual console.  Plenty of games would be ruled out if the Rev Remote-Control style controller were the ONLY method of control - that's the point, and I don't really see how it's debatable, but I don't mind being proven wrong, as long as you actually respond to what I say and not just what you imagine I say.

Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #53 on: September 16, 2005, 06:58:24 PM »
Please, people...TRADITIONAL SHELL... *sobs in corner*
~Former Resident Zelda Aficionado and Nintendo Fan~

Offline Ian Sane

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RE: A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #54 on: September 16, 2005, 08:15:58 PM »
IGN's mock-up looks great.  I'm not a fan of the Cube button layout but it's acceptable.  Nintendo absolutely MUST include something like that with every controller and every console.  They include that and they're home free.  Then it's like the remote is a special addition to the controller like the Dreamcast VMU.  The remote by itself will turn the Rev into a niche product.  If they have something like IGN's mockup then they're a potential serious competitor again.

Offline Artimus

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RE: A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #55 on: September 16, 2005, 08:24:17 PM »
Competitor to what, Ian? They have no interest in competing with Sony and Microsoft, if you mean that.

Offline Bill Aurion

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RE:A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2005, 08:33:30 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
IGN's mock-up looks great.  I'm not a fan of the Cube button layout but it's acceptable.  Nintendo absolutely MUST include something like that with every controller and every console.  They include that and they're home free.  Then it's like the remote is a special addition to the controller like the Dreamcast VMU.  The remote by itself will turn the Rev into a niche product.  If they have something like IGN's mockup then they're a potential serious competitor again.

I personally think Ninty will rearrange the button layout so it mimics the SNES...
~Former Resident Zelda Aficionado and Nintendo Fan~

Offline Ian Sane

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RE: A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #57 on: September 16, 2005, 09:27:39 PM »
"Competitor to what, Ian? They have no interest in competing with Sony and Microsoft, if you mean that."

I've heard that PR speak too.  It's bullsh!t and everyone knows it.  "We're not competing" is PR speak for "we suck at competing with these guys and our marketshare is the sh!ts."

Offline Stimutacs Addict

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RE: A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2005, 09:46:51 PM »
how can nintendo not compete with sony and microsoft? they are hitting the market with a more unique  product at a cheaper price that will undoubtedly offer the best controls for western styled games (by that i really only mean FPSers)... throw in some killer graphics and you have a surefire sell
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Offline Rancid Planet

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RE: A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #59 on: September 16, 2005, 10:03:35 PM »
Indeed. I HATE that "we don't view Sony and MS has competition" crap. They ARE competition whether or not Nintendo acknowledge it. And they do, behind closed doors. I wish people wouldn't buy EVERY line that a Nintendo rep delivers. A lot of that is just business jargon my peeps.  

Offline pudu

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RE:A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2005, 11:26:12 PM »
The way I see it is simple.  The left side of the "shell" controller could be much like that of the wavebird with the analogue stick and a D pad.  The right side contains 6 face buttons in a diaganal pattern similar to that of the N64.  They could either all be of the same size or the top/right four could be slightly smaller then the bottom/left 2 to be more similar to the N64 setup.  Also, two of the buttons could be indented in like the SNES controller was.  These buttons could be used as an NES, SNES, N64, and GCN buttons fairly well across the board.  Also, the right side would contain a "c-stick" but have it the same size as the other analogue stick.  The pad would contain two analogue shoulder buttons and two analogue or digital (z) trigger buttons.  The shoulders would be for SNES, N64, GCN and the triggers for N64, GCN.  The extra trigger would be to match the buttons of the competing consoles.

One of the main problems I can think of with this would be one of function for some N64 games.  Games like turok that required the N64's c-buttons for strafing may not be as confortable if the buttons were made larger.  If they opted to make 4 of the buttons smaller then the bottom two then this could be eliviated, or they could simply give the option of customizing your controls so you could map the strafe to your "c-stick", which could work probably atleast as good.

Lastly, something I'm more wishing for then seeing it as something that could actually happen, is them putting a feature in that will somehow change the letter and/or color on the buttons according to what console the game is meant to be played on.  Here are some ways I've thought about doing this:

-lights inside clear buttons that display different letters (not quite sure how it could work yet)
-lights that are different colors that will correspond to the colors of letters written next to the buttons (for example N64 could be represented with the correct blue, green, and yellow buttons.  All with the correct letters of the same colors next to the buttons)

Edit:  Just found some examples that illustrate how the buttons could be labeled.  Go >here<and look at mock up's 33 and 38.  One thing I want to mention though is that I think that the best way of doing it would find a way that is good looking and easy to understand but not too expensive.  Different colored buttons could be fairly cheap using LED's but to change the lettering gets a lot trickier.

I'm looking into light filters as an option that can block certain colors so that the different letters could be displayed simply by lighting up different colored LED's.  I know...IWATATON has taken over my life.

Offline wandering

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RE:A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #61 on: September 16, 2005, 11:40:28 PM »
Well, I'm warming up to this traditional shell.

The nice thing about it is that it's presence probably improved the rev's controller design. The remote + nunchuck design is close to being the perfect controller. Without the traditional shell, then they would've had to have compromised it's beautiful simplicity by adding an extra d-pad, another analog stick, more buttons, etc, to the setup, just for the classic games (and small minority of REV games) that'll need them.

Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Then it's like the remote is a special addition to the controller like the Dreamcast VMU. The remote by itself will turn the Rev into a niche product. If they have something like IGN's mockup then they're a potential serious competitor again

If you're expecting the traditional shell to be what most games use, I'm afraid you'll probably be dissapointed. I highly doubt very many devs will opt out of the Revolution's revolutionary feature, freehand motion control, just so they can have  2 extra buttons and a stick.
I could be wrong, though.

Quote

Originally posted by: pudu
The way I see it is simple. The left side of the "shell" controller could.....
.....

I like your design. The GameCube's button layout would probably be annoying for non-gamecube games, and gamecube games could probably work with a more traditional button layout.    
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Offline nolimit19

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RE: A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #62 on: September 17, 2005, 06:33:23 AM »
i think they should replace the dpad with a joy stick, and put the dpad on the bottom with 4 buttons so you can play it sideways....seriously i dont get the current design at all. if you thought nintendo didnt get enough  3rd party support for the cube, just wait until the developers have to figure out how to adapt their games to this controller...hahahha.
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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #63 on: September 17, 2005, 06:36:28 AM »
The joystick idea is just as flawed as the "joystick for DS" idea...What happens when you wear your joystick down?  You'll buy a new remote?  Replacing the analog attachment will be MUCH easier and cheaper...
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Offline nolimit19

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RE: A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #64 on: September 17, 2005, 06:40:04 AM »
i was reading some of this thread and someone mentioned "barriers" for developers to make games for nintendos console. the biggest barriers are costs, not controller stylye. also, if this controller had been an extra that was sold seperatly for the cube, only the elite game player would have purchased it. i think thats pretty safe to say. normal people dont want to try different things in video games. only people that spend a lot of money on games would do that.

if they dont make some modifications, the rev may bite the dust from this decision.  
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Offline KnowsNothing

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RE: A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #65 on: September 17, 2005, 06:41:39 AM »
I don't understand why developers won't adapt anything.  First of all, there's the traditional shell.  Second of all, it's going to be just like developing for the GC, just mapping the controls to different functions....
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Offline nolimit19

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RE: A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #66 on: September 17, 2005, 06:47:19 AM »
well i just hope the shells are sold with the controllers, and not seprately.
A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice.

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Offline Mario

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RE: A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #67 on: September 17, 2005, 06:48:44 AM »
It doesn't take long for devs to map different commands to different buttons, they could figure it out in a day. Games typically take what, a year to develop? It's nothing.

Offline nolimit19

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RE: A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #68 on: September 17, 2005, 06:55:34 AM »
i was kind of joking when i said that...thats why i was laughing. i think the people that will have the biggest problem with the controller are the people playing the game.

also, lets say the shell isnt avalible with the controller and a dev just cant find a good layout for the buttons...you could potentially have a situation where a game is nearly unplayable with the standard controller.
A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice.

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Offline pudu

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RE:A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #69 on: September 17, 2005, 07:03:18 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: nolimit19
i think they should replace the dpad with a joy stick, and put the dpad on the bottom with 4 buttons so you can play it sideways....seriously i dont get the current design at all. if you thought nintendo didnt get enough  3rd party support for the cube, just wait until the developers have to figure out how to adapt their games to this controller...hahahha.


We still don't know how far down into the "shell" controller the free-style controler will go.  If it goes far enough down into the controller to cover the Dpad then this could also be a reason why it's not an analogue stick (wouldn't reall work for sliding into something else).  As it is the controller face is relatively flat.  Also, like I've said and others have said in the past, moving with an analogue stick and with moving with motion sensing at the same time could possibly be quite difficult and awkward.

Offline nolimit19

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RE: A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #70 on: September 17, 2005, 07:15:17 AM »
good points
A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice.

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Offline Shecky

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RE: A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #71 on: September 17, 2005, 08:02:39 AM »
What's with all you people and the on/off  -  night/day thinking.

the "either, or" thinking.... instead of "this, and"

I think people are under the false impression that there will be "one shell to rule them all".  Shells may not be terribly expensive, but this whole peripheral thing is going to spin up quickly, especially once 3rd parties figure it out (or nintendo lets them in on how the stick interface works).  I _guarantee_ Nintendo itself has more than one shell coming.  I be they'll have one for the SNES, N64, and GC.  Maybe even one that tries to be a nice maraige of all of them...  This is a high revenue avenue for them, so they will take advantage of it.

Personally, I'm predicting a GC controller type shell, like the IGN mockup, being included with the system.  Reason being that they would want to support the GC games that you can *still buy* and just pop in your rev.  If you want to play those retro N64 or SNES games that you download, the GC controller is adequate (no bitching that C-stick != C-buttons... it's good enough for most games).  If you want a more genuine N64 or SNES pad, they'll likely have additional shells for purchase.

Now as for ports of games..... I think you'll see a lot of ports with multiple control schemes.

Why would a company, say EA, ditch the traditional controls and remove them completely?  They're going to want to experiment with what will work.  They would port to the Rev and add a control scheme that uses the stick, and maybe even one that uses the traditional shell + motion feedback.  Just like Metroid Prime 3 will likely include the traditional style controls.

If you don't think that all 3:
1. Full traditional
2. traditional plus stick input
3. stick or stick plus analog dongle

has their advantages... then your being unfairly biased.  Besides, everyone has different tastes.

Example: Madden:
1) Straight forward.  Same as it is on the other consoles using the traditional shell and ignoring any movements by the stick
2) One example, you can tie one of your receivers to the movements of your controller.  So you play normally and can trace a route with your controller for your receiver... want to cut left instead of the intended right? just move the controller left.
3) Not sure, but I'm sure you can come up with *several* pretty cool schemes... thing is what if EA doesn't quite get it right the first attempt with a football game on the console?  What if they get it right for half of the people, and half don't care for it.  Games in this mode will likely have different styles of play, and it may take a few iterations.  So it doesn't hurt to have 1 and 2.

I don't think you'll see developers skimp out on 3 because it's boils down to an input in the end (same way for the DS).  Figure out what movements mean what and write the routines.  Did Advance Wars ditch the standard controls and only go touchscreen? No, it would be foolish.  I think you'll see more of a problem with games that only support (3) and bypass (1) and (2) than the other way around.  (Of coures barring the games that don't make sense to have (1) and (2))

Don't be surprised when the Revolution comes with the capability to generically map movement controls to the older games.  A few templates if you will.  I'm guessing downloaded games will also have a way of specifying a map of the freehand controls to that particular game.

Offline Ian Sane

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RE: A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #72 on: September 17, 2005, 09:14:31 AM »
"If you're expecting the traditional shell to be what most games use, I'm afraid you'll probably be dissapointed."

Every multiplatform game will use the shell if Nintendo includes it as a standard except for maybe a few oddballs early on that try to be cute and end up controlling like crap compared to their PS3/X360 equivalents.  Exclusives will probably be the only games that even use the remote's features.

Sales plays a big part in it though.  If Nintendo's initial remote games aren't well received the shell will probably become the standard.  How the non-gamer market that influenced this whole thing reacts to it will probably be the biggest factor.

I also think they should advertise the controller differently in the different regions.  In Japan it makes more sense to focus on the remote because the Japanese are more appreciative of wacky stuff and Japanese devs are way more likely to make use of it.  American devs are more likely to just port over PS3 games and American gamers don't like wacky stuff as much so I think the ads should treat the shell as the normal controller and the remote is a special part of it that you pull out for some games.  That trailer they showed would not go over well in North America.  I think it would make the Rev look too gimmicky.  I think a commercial that shows someone playing some of the games would work best.  Initially he would use the shell and then at one point, for the big innovative remote game, he pulls the remote out of the controller and everyone watching is all "wow".  That way it looks like a normal controller with something extra instead of a super insane remote controller that can't even play SNES games correctly.

Offline Mario

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RE: A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #73 on: September 17, 2005, 09:17:05 AM »
No way, non gamers exist in America too, showing the controller first is just going to scare them off and destroy the entire point. Everyone who is a "hardcore gamer" and wants that traditional controller will already know about it, no need to advertise it.

Offline PaLaDiN

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RE: A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?
« Reply #74 on: September 17, 2005, 09:25:16 AM »
I disagree, Ian. I think this thing would do a lot better if it was marketed as something new that can also be a traditional controller. The DS didn't have that luxury, it was just something new.

A traditional controller that can also be something new isn't going to attract anybody except the people who already like the traditional setup. Nintendo has got something Sony and Microsoft do not have, and they should market the hell out of it or next gen will just be a repeat of this gen.

I think the ideal advertisement for the States would be somebody snapping the ball in Madden with the remote, followed by somebody using the Metroid Prime 3 setup, followed by slotting it into the traditional shell to play a traditional game as an afterthought for the traditional gamers who already know about it.  
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