Author Topic: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN  (Read 76539 times)

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Offline Artimus

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RE:2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #250 on: December 08, 2005, 01:52:48 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"WHAT GAMES are you talking about!? If you see games made to appeal to non-gamers, what games are they!?"

Stuff like Warioware, Yoshi: Touch 'n' Go, Pac-Pix, and Feel the Magic.  Little short novelty games that are fun for someone who is just thrilled by the concept of playing games.  As someone with more experience in gaming I get bored of games like this in minutes and I would never pay full price for them.  They're perfect for non-gamers because they require no commitment and can be played for five minutes.  They're like those free flash games only they cost money.


Ian...you expect us to buy this? You named four games, all four of which came out in the first quarter of the DS's life. Since then there is Mario Kart, Mario & Luigi, Castlevania, Trauma Center, Advance Wars, Animal Crossing, Phoenix Wright, Tony Hawk, Sonic, and on and on. Those games you mentioned weren't because of a non-gamers focus (and TWO were weren't Nintendo), they were because of a new type of control.

What about the full fledged games? What about the fact that once the DS got a bit older those games stopped coming? What about the fact that there are six other first party titles that are full fledged? What about the fact that the GBA had a WarioWare?

Offline ShyGuy

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #251 on: December 08, 2005, 02:06:56 PM »
As someone with more experience in gaming I get much enjoyment out of these games and find that my gaming peers do as well.

Offline zakkiel

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #252 on: December 08, 2005, 02:16:04 PM »
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How does a company whose success is based on loyal customers like myself not owe me anything? I think within a reasonable limit it is the job of a console maker to make sure their userbase is satisfied.
You bought the product. The product worked as advertized. Therefore, Nintendo discharged the sum of its obligations to you. If you made regular charitable donations to Nintendo, then you might have a case. You didn't, so far as I know. You just made a decision entirely based on self-interest about a product purchase, and Nintendo's only responsibility is to make sure the product does what they say it will do when you buy it.
Quote

It just screws us over. I don't want Nintendo to go broke but I do want them to increase their market share and address my reasonable needs.
Nintendo cares whether your demands are satisfied in exactly the same way that you care if Nintendo makes a profit - it's necessary for your own self-interest. If in fact they decide that their interests don't depend on satisfying you, then they will drop you like a hot rock however you whine. As I have nothing at stake in whether your demands are met, I don't give a damn, and neither I imagine does anyone else here who doesn't share your demands.

Nintendo isn't in a bubble; that honor belongs to the company in massive debt, which also happens to be the one with the greatest marketshare. And even if Nintendo were in a scenario where it survived by clinging to a group of diehard fans on verge of a mass exodus, what on earth makes you think you speak for those fans? You certainly don't for me.  
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Offline Mario

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #253 on: December 08, 2005, 02:32:52 PM »
Yoshi's Touch & Go is the best game on DS (that isn't Mario Kart), it's a perfect gamers game, I play it for hours at a time, if it was released in 1980 and touch screens started videogaming it would be a classic and you'd be complaining that games aren't like that anymore with all the fancy sparkling innovationy control pads around. I've tried to teach Yoshi Touch & Go to non-gamers, but its too confusing for them, it's a very complex game. PLEASE stop lumping it in the "non-gamers" bullshit. Wario Ware too.

Offline trip1eX

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RE:2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #254 on: December 08, 2005, 03:14:50 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"IF I wanted 3rd party titles and wanted to go online and didn't like Nintendo's direction and what they do then I would buy another console and call it good."

Every thought that maybe I want Nintendo's first party titles too?  Those are my favourite games and that is the only reason why I stick with Nintendo.  If that wasn't a priority I would have dumped Nintendo in 1997.


Well then there is something you like about Nintendo.  

Still it looks like you need to buy a 2nd console to be satisfied.  I would recommend that route.

Offline Don'tHate742

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #255 on: December 08, 2005, 03:17:02 PM »
Don't get mad everyone, Ian is just trying to prove a point that can't be proven. What that point is, nobody knows.

This isn't flame, Ian, you must understand that we honestly don't know what the hell your talking about. You and your mom .*





*Ok, that was flame
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Offline mjbd

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RE:2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #256 on: December 08, 2005, 03:45:39 PM »
Alright, time to relax people.  Anyway, Nintendo owes everyone absoutley nothing.  However, keep in mind that we dont owe them anything either.  Nintendo sells a product, if you like that product, then you can buy it, fair exchange.  The only reason I want to see Nintendo do well, is because I like their games, and if Nintendo is doing well as a business, I can expect further releases of nintendo greatness.  Back on track, I think that we shouldnt be to worried, because the developers are still talking positive about the system.  The comment from a developer about being familiar with the hardware and will inturn make developing games on the system quick and easy.  Something that has to be excepted, is that Rev taking the DS approach.  There will be more "pick up and play" games on Rev than any other system.  These are the games that will attract more non-gamers.  Some of the games will be sparkling innovationy, but I have faith that some will be fantastic multi player party games.  Seeing as how these types of games dont require a very long development cycle, or large teams; I doubt we will be missing any of our major releases.  A Wario Ware style game isnt going to hold up nintendo from making the next Zelda.  I would expect to see alot more Rev software to be priced in the $30 to $40 range than we did this generation.  Nintendo is taking care of its core market, but at the same time going after a new market that MS and Sony care nothing about.  Makes sense to me
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Offline BigJim

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RE:2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #257 on: December 08, 2005, 03:56:59 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: zakkiel
Quote

If I ever again have to wait over a year between games I want to play, then I (and customers like me) are within reasonable logic to just say "screw you" and find a better alternative... along with the majority of the market has apparently already has.
See, the thing is you and Ian keep espousing your personal preference as though Nintendo had some sort of obligation to meet it. Since Nintendo owes you exactly nothing, this isn't terribly persuasive. You also then threaten Nintendo loss of customers, right after saying it doesn't matter what's best for Nintendo. That's incoherent. If Nintendo's non-gamer policy is the best decision, it doesn't matter if you leave - that's just the price of a strategy beneficial to Nintendo overall. If it isn't the right decision, then you have to actually argue to that effect if you want to convince someone. Repeatedly saying you plan to stop buying Nintendo consoles doesn't impress anyone. If that's what you want to do, do it. Just don't expect us to care.


Oddly enough, many of the opinions here are repetitions of Nintendo's talking points. What's best for Nintendo is best for them, apparently.  How convenient it is, I suppose, to share in collective thought.

We are allowed to be individuals. Everybody can freely develop their own opinions here. That's all there IS until Nintendo provides something more than buzzwords. One doesn't have to drink the Kool-Aid to have a valid opinion. And those that don't, don't have to preface opinions with, "It's just my own opinion, but..." because opinion is all anybody has for the next year and probably beyond.

My personal opinion doesn't matter. I was exemplifying a problem with the "everybody" buzzword strategy. Nor did I "threaten" anything. I was pointing out their continued irrelevance in the marketplace in fewer words. That's not a personal opinion. That's a fact. It's evidence of a problem. That's not what's best for Nintendo or its customers.

I didn't say it doesn't matter what's best for Nintendo. I said it's *not all about what's best for them* when you are a customer. And it's not. Customers matter. Their profit is not the end-all be-all of our existence, except the "collective" that use this defense religiously as evidence of Nintendo's infallible strategy. Normal customers care about getting what they want. If they don't, they consider other options. Nintendo even told us to. So what?

Nintendo owes me nothing. You're absolutely right. I also owe them nothing. Nor does anybody else.

"If Nintendo's non-gamer policy is the best decision, it doesn't matter if you leave - that's just the price of a strategy beneficial to Nintendo overall"

Precisely. Best decision for themselves. Disregard existing customers for the bigger bottom line. That's not an "everybody" strategy. The keyword in your statement is "if". Again even if I use myself as an example, I am exemplifying an issue bigger than myself. I'm not that conceited. I believe that trying to attract everybody can leave people unsatisfied, unless you're big enough to keep all of those appetites fed. "Jack of all trades, master of none" is not a new idea. That's my hypothesis and I haven't seen anything that disproves it, other than those that say they're satisfied. But such is expected inside the bubble that is a Nintendo forum and can't be proven or disproven here. But I do think marketshare is part of the equation, and that segment isn't compelling evidence of a great strategy. It remains to be seen if Rev makes it better or worse for everybody, for real.  
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Offline PaLaDiN

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #258 on: December 08, 2005, 04:11:19 PM »
Yes, fight the collective, you brave free-thinking rebel you.

From what I can gather the point beneath your pseudo-intellectual blathering is that you don't want to wait a year between playing games. All right, I don't think any of us do. Point taken.

There also seems to be a vague undercurrent of "games for everybody aren't working", am I getting that right? I don't know, it's hidden under all the pretentious crap. Funny how being part of the free thinkers exempts you from being coherent.

The reason the "collective" "use this defense religiously" is because as long as Nintendo is profitable, Nintendo is alive, and as long as Nintendo is alive, Nintendo makes Nintendo games. Do I have to point out why that's a good thing? Nah, what's the point, I'm just a drone who repeats the company mantra and I like Nintendo games because Nintendo tells me to.
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Offline BigJim

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #259 on: December 08, 2005, 04:14:00 PM »
Well at least you're catching on.

"There also seems to be a vague undercurrent of "games for everybody aren't working", am I getting that right? I don't know, it's hidden under all the pretentious crap."

I'll try to be more obvious about it when it is brought up yet again in the next 200 post thread.

Nintendo can be profitable and alive making more games that more people want. But are they big enough to handle it? They've licensed out so many of their IPs this generation as it is. I am not expecting everything from Tickle-me-Kirby to Toadstool's Fantasic Bass Fishing to cover every possible niche. I'm just a fan of the big IP epics most of all, and the StarFox-to-Zelda wait makes BigJim something something.Anyway, enough for now.

Now rejoin the Borg grasshopper.  
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Offline ThePerm

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #260 on: December 08, 2005, 04:14:19 PM »
im going to start my own video game company and im going to put sony, nintendo, and mirosoft out of business....so this aregument is pointless.
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Offline BigJim

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #261 on: December 08, 2005, 04:28:42 PM »
Now that's "free spirited" thinking. Pass it over this way, dude.
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Offline mjbd

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Offline Dirk Temporo

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #263 on: December 08, 2005, 04:37:17 PM »
Seems like MTV liked it. Those demos seem pretty neat. I wanna try.

Nintendo of America seems to have cleared up things nicely in IGN's new article. Seems that the lack of RAM is due to the lack of HD output. I reckon that makes sense.
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Offline odifiend

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #264 on: December 08, 2005, 05:30:02 PM »
Good job showing it to MTV.  Sadly they have a lot of clout and influence a lot of people.  They practically made the iPod what it is, I'm sure they were given kickbacks from the recording industry.  
On a somewhat related not, the segments of their video game month that I saw while flipping shocked and dismayed me.
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Offline heinous_anus

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RE:2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #265 on: December 08, 2005, 09:02:00 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: PaLaDiN
Yes, fight the collective, you brave free-thinking rebel you.

From what I can gather the point beneath your pseudo-intellectual blathering is that you don't want to wait a year between playing games. All right, I don't think any of us do. Point taken.

There also seems to be a vague undercurrent of "games for everybody aren't working", am I getting that right? I don't know, it's hidden under all the pretentious crap. Funny how being part of the free thinkers exempts you from being coherent.

The reason the "collective" "use this defense religiously" is because as long as Nintendo is profitable, Nintendo is alive, and as long as Nintendo is alive, Nintendo makes Nintendo games. Do I have to point out why that's a good thing? Nah, what's the point, I'm just a drone who repeats the company mantra and I like Nintendo games because Nintendo tells me to.

Wow, this is getting rough.  But, you know what, no one is really responding to a couple of REALLY important points in Ian and BigJim's thoughts.

How is a continually shrinking home console marketshare good for Nintendo and its userbase?

Why is it so horrible to expect Nintendo to occasionally experience temporary financial setbacks if it provides us, its customers, with a better overall experience (case in point: online gaming)?

Ian, you are spot-on with regard to MS and Sony's share of gamers.  Really, the argument is about whether or not Nintendo had any control in losing hordes of fans, or potential fans/customers, to its competitors.  Of course it did; it still does.

Offline wandering

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #266 on: December 08, 2005, 09:22:55 PM »
Of course gaining marketshare is important- Nintendo knows this. They don't TRY to lose marketshare...in fact, Nintendo is aiming for number one next-gen.

As for Nintendo being unwilling to lose money, are we forgetting that Nintendo is not a Microsoft-like gigantic corporation? What would sinking billions of dollars into a failed cube online plan have done for Nintendo? Aside from making Ian happy, I mean?

Nintendo is profit-oriented, yes, but they aren't THAT bad....even Microsoft isn't willing to offer free online just for the sake of selling more games/consoles.
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Offline PaLaDiN

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #267 on: December 08, 2005, 11:18:07 PM »
"Wow, this is getting rough."

Did you take a moment to see his reaction, you abominable ***hole... that's your name, right? Any clue why he didn't take it seriously? Think the signature had something to do with it?

In all seriousness...

"How is a continually shrinking home console marketshare good for Nintendo and its userbase?"

I don't think anybody's arguing that, we just disagree on how to fix it. Acting like Microsoft and Sony isn't going to fix it... Nintendo proved that with the Cube. Ian can delude himself all he wants that "their hands were tied behind their backs" and "they weren't trying hard enough" and "they made stupid mistakes like... uh... umm" but the fact of the matter is that Nintendo can't fight Sony or Microsoft using Sony or Microsoft tactics.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #268 on: December 09, 2005, 02:07:52 AM »
Unverified claim from an anonymous user on Slashdot:

Quote

I honestly don't know how much 'weaker' the Revolution will be; the handful of people I know who are game developers are mostly programming peons so they don't have too much information. One of my friends did say he thinks that a lot of people are under a serious misconception about the system because of what Nintendo has released as a 'Pre-Alpha' development kit to certain companies. He claims that Nintendo has released an improved Tri-Force based (for those that don't know, that's the Gamecube's arcade platform that is ~2X as powerful as the Gamecube) development kit that emulates the new features of the Revolution (like per-pixel shading); the purpose of this kit is not to produce something that performs in the same range as the Revolution but is to enable developers to Port/Develop the engine and test new features on a small scale. I'm told that it is not that uncommon for companies like Nintendo, Microsoft, or Sony to provide the developers with different hardware inorder to allow them to progress so I think that this sounds reasonable.

The only other thing I have heard from developers is that Nintendo is undercutting their performance on purpose in order to send the message to developers that they're not going to pressure them to produce games which they can not afford to make and to send the message that they want more creative and enjoyable games rather than prettier games.

Now, everything I have been told could have been a pack of lies but none of it sounds unreasonable; the initial development kits for the 360 were just Power Macs (and in a tight NDA agreement several people might be under the impression that this is the final hardware and leak it to news sites), and Nintendo announced that the Gamecube would only produce 12-15 Million Polygons per second (While Microsoft promised 155 Million with the XBox and Sony Promised 66 Million with the PS2; the XBox 360 may approach 40-60 Million and the PS3 may get into the 60-100 Million range but no hardware can sustain 100 Million + Polygons per second in a game situation) so it's not unreasonable to say Nintendo may make claims at the lower end of what is possible on their system.

Offline mantidor

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #269 on: December 09, 2005, 02:52:38 AM »
If only Matt didnt start this crap the first information about graphics would be a screenshot which obviously would look amazing and people wouldnt be bitching so much, now people have a preconcieved notion and no matter what screenshots or videos we see this mindset wont change. It happened to the GC and Nintendo wanted to avoid the same situation.
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Offline heinous_anus

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #270 on: December 09, 2005, 03:21:05 AM »
My god, you're right.  If the Revolution fails, we can look back at this report and blame everything on Matt.

Get real.  It's obvious that Nintendo is NOT concerned with being on competely equal footing in terms of pure horsepower (see every speech that Reggie, or anyone else makes - "would you rather see the sweat on a player's body, or be given a completely new way to play?").  Do I care about specs? No.  Do we, or should we, care?  Most of us don't.  That doesn't mean that there isn't an audience out there for rumors/speculation/etc. for people concerned with so-called "tech specs."

Really, the only spec that Matt posted in that news article as fact, or near-fact, was the RAM, which he's been told was straight out of Nintendo documentation.  Everything else is pretty hazy still, and I think that was pretty clear - "we've been told by development houses that"  "...Hollywood GPU is BELIEVED...".

And Paladin, please clarify yourself.  What the hell do you mean "any clue why he didn't take it seriously?"  And Ian has actually articulated some pretty good points in previous threads, and even this one, regarding things that Nintendo did poorly with the Gamecube, or didn't improve upon after the 64.  No one is really arguing that Nintendo should carbon copy the Sony/Microsoft model, just that Nintendo might be in a better off position now had they done things differently.  

Offline Don'tHate742

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #271 on: December 09, 2005, 03:37:21 AM »
You got to realize the Ian says the same sh!t over and over again. He may have some good points, but its the ONLY points he ever makes.

Were quite tired of it....
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Offline trip1eX

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #272 on: December 09, 2005, 05:37:54 AM »
hehe.  That guy complains about everything.  His opinion is the opposite of whatever Nintendo says or does.  So no matter what he's unsatisfied.  

I just have to say you have a choice.  I'm amazed by some folks who don't exercise this right if they are unhappy.

btw, that mtv article was dumb.  They didn't give much opinion on the controller.  Most of it was describing the the demos which have been described countless times in other articles.  I wanted more of an opinion.  Like how it worked in Metroid Prime.  The author speculates how you'll move in Zelda or GTA, but he gall damn played Echoes so he should the hell  know!!!!!

Offline Pittbboi

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #273 on: December 09, 2005, 06:51:32 AM »
Wow, this topic got spicy pretty quick.

I'll agree that Ian complain a lot. Ok, a whole lot. But I've also seen Ian give Nintendo their credit when it was due. A lot of people just can't face the fact that Ian (and most people who share his opinion) wouldn't have so much to complain about hadn't Nintendo given them a reason to. NIntendo's last place for a reason, and it's not because they were doing all they could.

"now people have a preconcieved notion and no matter what screenshots or videos we see this mindset wont change. It happened to the GC and Nintendo wanted to avoid the same situation"

Nintendo may have wanted to avoid the situation, but being tight lipped about every little detail and forcing people to come to their own conclusions or chase down the information themselves(Which, logically, isn't always going to be good) sure as hell wasn't the way to do it.

Offline Ian Sane

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #274 on: December 09, 2005, 06:51:58 AM »
"You got to realize the Ian says the same sh!t over and over again. He may have some good points, but its the ONLY points he ever makes."

Well it's not like my opinion is going to change.  If Nintendo actually learned from their mistakes for a change maybe the same points wouldn't have to be brought up again.

"If only Matt didnt start this crap the first information about graphics would be a screenshot which obviously would look amazing and people wouldnt be bitching so much, now people have a preconcieved notion and no matter what screenshots or videos we see this mindset wont change. It happened to the GC and Nintendo wanted to avoid the same situation."

It has nothing to do with Matt.  The second Nintendo started de-emphasizing specs and hardware in speeches and said outright that they would likely never release the Rev specs alarms started going off in people's heads that Nintendo was hiding something and had a reason to hide it.  They planted the "Rev is underpowered" thought into everyone's head themselves.  If they really wanted to wait for a screenshot then they should have said something to the effect of "the Revolution will have comparable hardware performance to the competition" and then not mention the HD thing until after screens were released.

"The only other thing I have heard from developers is that Nintendo is undercutting their performance on purpose in order to send the message to developers that they're not going to pressure them to produce games which they can not afford to make and to send the message that they want more creative and enjoyable games rather than prettier games."

This is a noble cause in theory but developers don't make the decision, the publishers do.  And if the publishers think that spending more money on a PS3 game that has a much wider potential userbase to sell to they'll go with that.  This "we're going to fix the industry" stuff just doesn't work if you're the last place console.