Topic: Factor 5 jumps ship. Swims over to Sony camp.

[ruby_onix]

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I wouldn't be surprised if this was directly related to that "2 or 3 times as powerful as the Cube" stuff.

Quite a while back, weren't there rumors saying that LucasArts stepped in and demanded that Factor 5 stop messing around exclusively with Nintendo and the GameCube, at which point Factor 5 ported their MusyX and DivX tool sets to the PS2/Xbox (which wasn't a big deal, as neither console really needed those tools like the Cube did)?

And then supposedly Factor 5 was ordered to port Rogue Squadron 3 to the Xbox? But that never happened.

Now they're saying they've already got experience with the Xbox360. I'm guessing Microsoft asked them to put it on the Xbox360, rather than the Xbox. At which point Sony came along and "made them an offer", and they decided that the PS3 beats the Xbox360.

The odd thing (IMO) is that Factor 5 seems to be so "into" Sony right now that they're even making one of those non-interactive demos to show off the supposed power of the PS3.

The ball just doesn't seem to have been in Nintendo's court with Factor 5 lately. And Nintendo doesn't seem to want to run out onto the road to claim it back from the guys who are tossing it around.

Does anyone know if Factor 5 helped to design the sound chip of the Revolution, or has done any work on dev-kit tools for it?


Edit: Found some semi-relevant GameSpot and PGC links.

[Savior]

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they done anything else worth noting? Factor 5 wasn't all that great anyway. They made two GC games and one of them sucked. Both

Once again, Factor 5 was more than a game maker, they spent alot of time making tools to push Nintendo hardware, its a BIG losss. Lets not  spin this like we did Rare.


Left Field made MTX Motortrax. Which was pretty good. they seem to know the dirt bike genre well.  

[KnowsNothing]

Didn't ruby just say that Factor 5's tools showed up on the PS2 and Xbox?  Either he's lying, or I can spin this story like top

[ruby_onix]

To elaborate, I think Factor 5 made the MusyX sound tools for the N64, then they helped design the GameCube's sound chip, and made the MusyX sound tools for the Cube.

Then they made Dolby Pro-Logic 2 work with videogames, to compensate for the GameCube's lack of Dolby Digital support, and then gave their work back to Dolby, who obviously offered it to any and all interested parties. IIRC, despite all the mocking the Cube got for it, there are more PS2 and Xbox games using DPL2 than there are using Dolby Digital, because DPL2 really is more suitable for interactive videogames than DD is, just like Nintendo/Factor 5 kept saying.

Then they made a DivX tool set so developers complaining about the GameCube's disc size could fit more FMV into their games.

Then they ported their MusyX and DivX tools to the PS2/Xbox, where they were unneeded and largely ignored.

Now it seems that Factor 5 is probably going to be making tools for the PS3. Given Cell's supposed complexity and new ways of doing things, it's probably where they're needed the most.

With the Revolution using the same API as the GameCube, people are probably just going to use the GameCube's MusyX tools as their Revolution audio tools. I mean, does anyone know if they were ever supposed to be "lacking" or anything?

[Ian Sane]

"That doesn't make a lick of sense."

Sorry I didn't really elaborate on it.  Since they focus on story based content presentation is important.  Thus music, sound, and graphics have to be at a certain level to create the right presentation.  If the Rev's hardware is significantly weaker they have more options for their presentation on another console.

[Galford]

It is kinda weird to see Factor 5 go.  They helped Nintendo out of a lot of tight spots.
How did a company that once was so close to Nintendo(the had input into the design of Gamecube) in one generation just jump ship?

[KDR_11k]

Easy, pressure by their parent company plus a lucrative contract.  There is no loyality! F5 wasn't loyal to nintendo, they simply specialized in the Gamecube.

[KnowsNothing]

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Sorry I didn't really elaborate on it. Since they focus on story based content presentation is important. Thus music, sound, and graphics have to be at a certain level to create the right presentation. If the Rev's hardware is significantly weaker they have more options for their presentation on another console.

1. Video game stories almost all SUCK, and it will still suck even after a facelift.
2. What CAN'T current generation hardware do?
3. It still doesn't make sense, and it never will.

[jpturner]

Just another brick in the wall. The loss of developers is really starting to go past the breaking point. It's not like there were THAT many developers out there who were committed to N for Gamecube, and now N's lost Rare (sale), Silicon Knights (artistic differences, hello Micro$oft), and Factor 5 ($$$) for the next generation. If paying for titles is what the market demands, N better get in the game while there's still a game to get into. Too depressing.  

[Djunknown]

[off topic]
I don't get Lucas Art's logic. I remember early in the Xbox's lifecycle there was an awful Star Wars game based on Obi-Wan's adventures between eps I-II. But did they stop developing for the 'box? Nope.

Rogue Leader is a hit, but Rebel Strike misses. Lucas Arts deems teh 'Cube teh Kitty! Re-f'n-diculous.

Now at the topic at hand, what else can Factor 5 do? Maybe this deal with Sony will answer that. They cranked out Rogue leader in record time (8 months from start to finish if I'm not mistaken). Can they do something similiar with the PS3?

I'm not too mad since they're independent. Its not like Rare or Sk, where Nintendo personally invested a lot into those companies. And its not like Sony's buying them out. Maybe we'll see Factor 5 across all platforms, challenging themselves to effectively use all the different hardware.

[KDR_11k]

Lucas Arts has about as much logic in them as George "Greedo shot first!" Lucas. This is the same company that cancelled Sam & Max 2 because there is no market for traditional adventure games in a time where adventure games are popping up and storming the charts left and right.

[jpturner]

If Nintendo can't get Lucas Arts to bring Lego Star Wars to Nintendo Gamecue, then good luck with other titles! If there was a recent game which made sense for the Gamecube's younger demographic (perceived or real), it was this game, which is selling like gangbusters for both PS2 and Xbox. Again, too depressing. I agree with Djunknown's thoughts: 1 bad title (sales wize) and now it's time to give up on Nintendo? Doesn't make sense for today, doesn't look good for tomorrow.

.

[Ian Sane]

I think Lucasarts was losing some money anyway on their games because they, you know, were making a lot of sh!t.  So they had to cut a loss somewhere.  "Hey Rebel Strike sold like ass!  Let's use that excuse to cut off Cube support and then we can cut out losses by making less games."  Basically third parties are making crap, it's not selling, the Cube userbase is the least likely to buy sh!t so they cut them out.  If corporations have the choice between dumping support for the third place console or making their games better I think it's pretty obvious which choice most of them are going to pick.

[ruby_onix]

BTW, in the latest IGN-Cube rantbag, Matt speculates that Factor 5 left because Nintendo is doomed and the Rev sucks and all that usual stuff.

[heinous_anus]

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Originally posted by: ruby_onix
BTW, in the latest IGN-Cube rantbag, Matt speculates that Factor 5 left because Nintendo is doomed and the Rev sucks and all that usual stuff.

He does?  You must be reading a different "mailbag" than I did.  Seems like Matt postulates that Nintendo and Factor 5 were just on different wavelengths.

[ruby_onix]

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Pilotwings

Has Nintendo confirmed whether or not Pilotwings would show up on the Revolution? I thought there was news of this game coming to the Gamecube awhile back but then it was speculated to be coming out for the Revolution. Any info on this would be appreciated.

Matt responds: This is going pretty far back. I wrote an article at E3 2003 about it, actually. Basically, Shigeru Miyamoto took the stage and waxed on about Nintendo's relationship with Factor 5. He proudly showed off the graphically impressive shooter Star Wars Rogue Squadron III: Rebel Strike and then said that Factor 5 and Nintendo were working closely together on another exclusive title for GameCube, which would be revealed at a later date. Meanwhile, I had heard and confirmed just a couple days before the event that the title in question was in fact an update to the Pilotwings franchise. As time passed, I was able to talk with some of the folks on the development side and they told me that any such title would in fact not make it out for GameCube -- that instead it was being prepped for Nintendo's next-generation console.

Still with me? Good. There's a little more.

Turns out that somewhere between then and now Nintendo decided to make the Revolution something dramatically different than it had originally intended -- a machine that doesn't quite follow the same structure as those from competitors Microsoft and Sony. Although Factor 5 enjoyed a good relationship with the Big N, it has always been a very tech-savvy company, and I assume that when it learned that technology would be downplayed in Revolution, it got a little freaked out and started to evaluate other options. Meanwhile, in typical form, Nintendo wasn't exactly forthcoming or very helpful in any collaborative effort, preferring to keep every fact of its new hardware top secret, even as specs and details from the other systems began to spill out.

So to make a long story a little shorter, Factor 5 jumped ship. It's now developing games exclusive for PlayStation 3 and so obviously it won't be making any Pilotwings title for Revolution. I have no idea if legitimate work was ever really done on the now-defunct project, nor do I know if Nintendo has since assigned it to another developer. So for now, we have it listed as TBA until we hear something, one way or the other. I wouldn't hold my breath for it just yet.

The part above "Still with me?" is Matt doing reporting. The part beneath that is Matt's increasingly more common postulating.

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Turns out that somewhere between then and now Nintendo decided to make the Revolution something dramatically different than it had originally intended -- a machine that doesn't quite follow the same structure as those from competitors Microsoft and Sony.

This is Matt's usual whiney "we were supposed to get ______ but Nintendo took it away from us" nonsense.

[Deguello]

LOL Matt sure likes to shoot the breeze, eh?  I love his uncorraborated anecdotes.  And before you line up to believe him, be sure to ask about Super Monkey Ball 3: Banana Crazy.  

[Stimutacs Addict]

pilotwings+gyros = stellar

Matt makes it seem like the revolution is just going to be a Gamecube with a little more ram

[pudu]

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Originally posted by: Stimutacs Addict
pilotwings+gyros = stellar

hmm I'm sorry for being pesimistic but what if the controller doesn't use gyros?  So many people (including me) have said it so many times now that it's almost expected but nothing except for their investment in that gyro company has proven it to be true.  It just pains me to see everyone bent on the inclusion of certain features where there is next to no evidence of them being included.

I'm not picking on you, Stimutacs Addict, I'm mearly saying ppl should try not to get their hopes up on certain things without more info.  I'm trying my best not to but I understand it can be difficult.

[Ian Sane]

Matt's logic makes sense to me.  Factor 5 were making Pilotwings for the Rev.  Now they're PS3 exclusive.  Obviously SOMETHING happened between then and now.  Factor 5 was one of Nintendo's most loyal supporters.  Supporters like that don't just leave for no reason.  The fact that Silicon Knights, who also was quite pro-Nintendo, left around the same time just makes it more likely that Nintendo has changed something.

Though Matt should be clear about which points are fact, opinion, or speculation.  Did Nintendo actually change what the Rev was supposed to be or has it always been the same and F5 and SK just didn't like what they saw?  Back in 2003 the Rev would just be a vague concept.  Ideally there probably wasn't any serious plans yet beyond just "it's the successor to the Cube."  Nintendo might be going away from the traditional expectations of a next-gen console but that's different than telling Factor 5 "we're doing this" and then changing it.  It sounds like Matt is speculating that point but he should be more clear.  Did he learn from a source that Nintendo changed what the Rev initially was or is he just assuming they did?

We have lost a developer.  That is a fact and that is bad.  So I find it odd that some of you take that news so lightly.

[nemo_83]

I don't take it lightly.  I would have a $#!+ fit if the controller turned out to be the worst of the three next gen and Nintendo's revolutionary aspect was wrapped up in its ability to wirelessly hook up to multiple tvs.  

A better way they could really f themselves over is if they did something stupidly gimmicky like release a controller dependent on keeping track of your pulse and body temperature.  Gamers would feel it was a waste.  Gamers obviously want direct control changes with the REV like gyros, haptics, or some other mechanic.  

I feel controllers suck right now for the games they have to control.  It seems the better the game gets, the worse it controls (Metroid Prime).  The more ambition and immersion involved the more difficult it gets to allow consumers, particular novice consumers to be able to control games.

I feel like making a new topic, but the board has been so dead it seems.  Maybe its just me.

"There are too many buttons and sticks on controllers for novice players, which is likely to discourage them from ever playing games at all," he says. "We want the Revolution's controller to be relevant to everybody and we really want people to feel like they want to touch and play with it."  -Iwata

use your imagination



Also check out this new news.  "Nintendo has announced plans to make a PC-compatible wireless network adapter to work with the Nintendo Wi-Fi Connection (the wireless network for DS and Revolution). It will use a USB 2.0 connection.While we don't have any details yet, basically, instead of an accessory that will let you go non-wireless, this accessory will make your current internet connection compatible with Wi-Fi."  -Aussie Nintendo


the picture

[Ian Sane]

"There are too many buttons and sticks on controllers for novice players, which is likely to discourage them from ever playing games at all,"

Yeah, I read that on the N-Sider forums.  It's pretty much the usual from Iwata though worded a little differently.  It makes sense to a point.  I find the SNES controller much easier to work with than the Cube controller.  But how do you go backwards?  After making games for so many years that use so many buttons and two analog sticks how do you remove items from the controller and expect games to continue to go forward?  Once you add something to a controller it's there forever.  You can't remove it without limiting game design.  For example every Nintendo game released for the Cube would not be possible without at least one analog stick and most wouldn't work without two.  If the Rev controller was simplified too much then games like that just plain wouldn't exist on the Rev.  So I'm very curious as to how Iwata plans on cutting down on buttons and sticks without completely wanging modern game design.

[nemo_83]

There could be other mechanics.  He could be saying he only wants one analog stick that is definably individual from the other mechanics on the controller.  I feel analog sticks are only good for moving the character, but I also feel a gyro would work better.  Its about whether you want to keep the stick with the gyro.  I don't like the idea of losing the analog stick so the gyro can take its place.  It makes the gyro seem like a novelty even though you can do things with the gyro like turn as well as move in any direction.  

The analog stick sucks for camera and that is for sure.  Maybe they could simply put a trackball on the controller.  This goes back to what I said in the above paragraph.  What if they just slap four face buttons on the controller along with shoulder functions, don't put sticks or trackballs on the controller; and use the gyros to replace the stick/trackball setup.  

I find a stick and trackball to be more important for facial mechanics on the controller than having face buttons or a dpad.  I want fewer face buttons and to keep the stick along with the gyro.  I simply care less about buttons than I do about having moving parts that do unique things.  

[Truthliesn1seyes]

I don't know what exactly was changed during Rev developement but you shouldn't take SK and Factor 5s moves to be so much of a negative.  They both are really good companies, but much like Rare back in the days, they produce games in a slower fashion than Nintendo themselves.  They're games come once a year if even.  I know Factor 5 pumped out one of those RS sequals in under a yr but the games are so similar that its more of an extention of one game than actually developing a new game from scratch.  

Just look at Squareenix, their president has become more outspoken in regards to the Rev and from what he's said, it seems Squareenix is more than excited bout it.  Squareenix is a very graphic intensive company so the fact that they are excited about the Rev should give you an indication that the system isn't as underpowered as everyone is making it out to be.  What this could mean is either Sony and MS are throwing around money to recieve more support/or take away some of Nintendo's key developers or whatever the Rev actually is, is geared more towards Japanese developers.  If this is true, then it could warrent SK and Factor 5 making their changes and Sqaureenix's new found love for Nintendo.

[Ian Sane]

"I don't know what exactly was changed during Rev developement but you shouldn't take SK and Factor 5s moves to be so much of a negative. They both are really good companies, but much like Rare back in the days, they produce games in a slower fashion than Nintendo themselves."

Games released at a slower rate is better than no games at all.  We've lost something that was good.  That sucks.  Period.  We gain NOTHING by Factor 5 and Silicon Knights jumping ship.  People say that Rare wasn't the big of a loss but did we gain anything from them leaving?  No.  It was just less games for the Cube.