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Offline Flames_of_chaos

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Microsoft's real stance on Indy developers
« on: July 30, 2008, 01:50:26 PM »
Quote from: destructoid.com
Source
Any indie developer will tell you it's a challenge to create the title of your dreams, but the bigger hurdle by far is getting the game published and distributed -- by someone that won't rape you for all you're worth. In a recent Gamasutra editorial by Ron Carmel of 2D Boy (developer of World of Goo), he takes a conversational tone towards Microsoft while addressing what he identifies as their three key moves that have turned off indie developers:

    1. Xbox Live Arcade royalties cut by about half
    2. De-listing of games from XBLA
    3. Xbox Live Community Games terms established

Ouch. We certainly are aware of those first two, as they have been discussed to death by developers and fans alike, but Carmel goes on to address the flaws in the recent Xbox Live Community Games announcement, pointing out price limitations and how game promotion can be a double-edged sword:

    "If the royalty rate drops from 70 percent to 40 percent for the promotional period, the promotion would barely affect the developer's bottom line, only stuffing Microsoft's pockets. Worse, if sales do not nearly double, developers actually lose money due to the promotion. Nickel and diming developers will not help XBLCG get the best games and is in my opinion a myopic strategy."

Will any of Carmel's opinions make a difference to a behemoth like Microsoft? I want to say it's unlikely, but at the same time I applaud him for standing up and clarifying thoughts that many others may have, but don't speak aloud. The indie pool is where some of today's most dynamic ideas are coming from, and I can only hope the courage Carmel displayed in speaking his mind here will be an inspiration to others to stand up for the games they create.

Even with the Wii's "Draconian" 40MB size limit on WiiWare stuff I bet it's more friendly than XBLA, I think the profit ratio on WiiWare is  Developer/publisher 70/30 Nintendo which can still be amazing considering how Nintendo was always stingy with licensing pricing.  And last time I checked 70% profit to the game creator is much better and more inviting than the 40% that Microsoft offers.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 02:02:32 PM by Flames_of_chaos »
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Microsoft's real stance on Indy developers
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2008, 02:13:13 PM »
What's PSN like on the third party front?

Offline Flames_of_chaos

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Re: Microsoft's real stance on Indy developers
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2008, 02:44:37 PM »
What's PSN like on the third party front?

Practically non existent the only major 3rd parties that actually published stuff on PSN is Capcom and Koei (don't quote me on that one), and there are a bunch of PSone re-releases (think virtual console) and a lot of retro arcade stuff was handled by Sony Online Entertainment. All the indy games on PSN had Sony involvement (publishing, development help and so forth).
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Offline Flames_of_chaos

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Re: Microsoft's real stance on Indy developers
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2008, 03:01:54 PM »
Here's some other nice tidbits:
Full Article

Quote
This one is a much larger problem. Microsoft reserves the right to promote your game with or without your consent and take an extra 10 percent to 30 percent for this "service," dropping the royalty rate to as low as 40 percent for the duration of the promotion.

Microsoft's announcement tries to present this promotion as a great opportunity for developers, and in some cases it might be, but it could actually end up hurting the developer financially.

According to a fellow indie who has a game out on XBLA, sales during the period when the game was promoted by Microsoft were about double than what they were the week following the promotion. Keep in mind that the fall in sales is only partly due to the end of the promotion. It also followed the natural decline that happens with any game over time.

Quote
I'd like to illustrate this by walking through how Microsoft calculates royalties for XBLA and XBLCG. First, Microsoft Points are converted into US dollars, and then (if necessary) to the currency in which the developer is paid.

Because of the weak dollar, prices for Microsoft Points are higher outside the US. In Europe, for example, players pay about 50 percent more for a Point than in the US, but this extra revenue never reaches the developer because Microsoft converts all Points directly to dollars. For sales in Europe, a developer might think he is getting a 70 percent royalty rate, but in reality he gets a mere 47 percent of the sale price while Microsoft profiteers off the exchange rate.

I very much doubt that this practice would remain in place if the dollar ever overtakes the Euro. In contrast to Microsoft's underhanded tactics, WiiWare royalties for sales in Europe are paid out in Euros, so if players pay more, the developer gets more as well.

Quote
It gets worse. The XBLA distribution agreement allows Microsoft to change the rate at which they convert Points to dollars independently of how much players pay for Points. Initially, these conversion rates lined up, but currently the Points-to-dollars conversion rate is about 3 percent lower than the Dollars-to-Points conversion rate. This means that Microsoft has already sliced 3 percent off the royalty rate for every single XBLA developer.
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Offline Ceric

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Re: Microsoft's real stance on Indy developers
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2008, 05:26:33 PM »
What's PSN like on the third party front?

Practically non existent the only major 3rd parties that actually published stuff on PSN is Capcom and Koei (don't quote me on that one), and there are a bunch of PSone re-releases (think virtual console) and a lot of retro arcade stuff was handled by Sony Online Entertainment. All the indy games on PSN had Sony involvement (publishing, development help and so forth).
Don't forget Pixel Junk.  They have a few good games on PSN.
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Offline Flames_of_chaos

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Re: Microsoft's real stance on Indy developers
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2008, 08:05:54 PM »
What's PSN like on the third party front?

Practically non existent the only major 3rd parties that actually published stuff on PSN is Capcom and Koei (don't quote me on that one), and there are a bunch of PSone re-releases (think virtual console) and a lot of retro arcade stuff was handled by Sony Online Entertainment. All the indy games on PSN had Sony involvement (publishing, development help and so forth).
Don't forget Pixel Junk.  They have a few good games on PSN.

Developed by a 3rd party but Published by Sony.
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Offline Galford

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Re: Microsoft's real stance on Indy developers
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2008, 02:11:08 AM »
MS's numbers are easy to find, because of that it's easy to see what weaknesses it's Creator's Club program has.  It would be very interesting to compare these numbers to say Sony and Nintendo if one could find them.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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Re: Microsoft's real stance on Indy developers
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2008, 02:12:19 PM »
I think MS started showing their true colors far too early.

MS is a company with a business model that only works with no competition (aka Windows).

I find it funny that they've completely ignored Nintendo's presence in the market in this regard by choosing to **** their potential indie devs just as WiiWare debuts.

It's like a Sony level of arrogance...
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Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: Microsoft's real stance on Indy developers
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2008, 02:23:47 PM »
Microsoft knows what their doing, their business model seems to almost always work for them one way or another.  Not that I'm a fan, but just sayin' it works on a semi-regular basis.  Even as it screws others over.  They probably aren't gonna try any blue ocean **** this time, but maybe next generation.
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Offline Luigi Dude

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Re: Microsoft's real stance on Indy developers
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2008, 06:51:18 PM »
I think MS started showing their true colors far too early.

MS is a company with a business model that only works with no competition (aka Windows).

I find it funny that they've completely ignored Nintendo's presence in the market in this regard by choosing to **** their potential indie devs just as WiiWare debuts.

It's like a Sony level of arrogance...

Well according to most interviews, it seems that Microsoft still views the Wii as a fad that will die someday.  Because of this they still view Sony as their main competitor in the videogame industry.  And like Flames_of_chaos already said, there's hardly any Indy developers working on Sony's PSN, so that would explain why Microsoft thinks they have a monopoly over the Downloadable Games market.
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: Microsoft's real stance on Indy developers
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2008, 09:59:20 PM »
I think MS started showing their true colors far too early.

MS is a company with a business model that only works with no competition (aka Windows).

I find it funny that they've completely ignored Nintendo's presence in the market in this regard by choosing to **** their potential indie devs just as WiiWare debuts.

It's like a Sony level of arrogance...

Well according to most interviews, it seems that Microsoft still views the Wii as a fad that will die someday.  Because of this they still view Sony as their main competitor in the videogame industry.  And like Flames_of_chaos already said, there's hardly any Indy developers working on Sony's PSN, so that would explain why Microsoft thinks they have a monopoly over the Downloadable Games market.

If the Wii's a fad why are they borrowing ideas from it?
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Re: Microsoft's real stance on Indy developers
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2008, 10:08:46 PM »
On the other hand, anybody can jump in and develop for Xbox 360, while you have to somehow prove to Nintendo your worth and pay a bunch of money before even having the chance to go for WiiWare.
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Offline Flames_of_chaos

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Re: Microsoft's real stance on Indy developers
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2008, 10:27:00 PM »
On the other hand, anybody can jump in and develop for Xbox 360, while you have to somehow prove to Nintendo your worth and pay a bunch of money before even having the chance to go for WiiWare.

That maybe somewhat true but you have go through certifications, follow nintendo, sony or microsoft's guidelines. And it's not like your guaranteed that you game will make it on the marketplace, every system has it's different upkeeps.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Microsoft's real stance on Indy developers
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2008, 03:57:23 AM »
Microsoft knows what their doing, their business model seems to almost always work for them one way or another.  Not that I'm a fan, but just sayin' it works on a semi-regular basis.  Even as it screws others over.  They probably aren't gonna try any blue ocean **** this time, but maybe next generation.
For a sufficiently broken definition of "works", yes. They failed to get anywhere close to break even, they failed to take the lead in the first round and failed to keep their early release advantage in the second, they still haven't figured out how to deal with Japan which, while not a terribly large market, is used as a testing ground for loads of game developers and publishers. Where's the "works" in this? They wasted a lot of money and failed at getting the big mindshare (which some say was the point of the xbox) too. The XBox is like a prestrige project in a totalitarian country, huge, wasteful, not nearly cost effective, often just failing to work and exists merely so its builder can boost his own ego.

Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: Microsoft's real stance on Indy developers
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2008, 01:10:17 PM »
Microsoft knows what their doing, their business model seems to almost always work for them one way or another.  Not that I'm a fan, but just sayin' it works on a semi-regular basis.  Even as it screws others over.  They probably aren't gonna try any blue ocean **** this time, but maybe next generation.
For a sufficiently broken definition of "works", yes. They failed to get anywhere close to break even, they failed to take the lead in the first round and failed to keep their early release advantage in the second, they still haven't figured out how to deal with Japan which, while not a terribly large market, is used as a testing ground for loads of game developers and publishers. Where's the "works" in this? They wasted a lot of money and failed at getting the big mindshare (which some say was the point of the xbox) too. The XBox is like a prestrige project in a totalitarian country, huge, wasteful, not nearly cost effective, often just failing to work and exists merely so its builder can boost his own ego.

But Microsoft always does this, they do it to get the name out, they can afford to lose for long time in an up hill battle before they jump ****. I mean come on, you know there will be a Xbox 3.
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Re: Microsoft's real stance on Indy developers
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2008, 02:14:15 PM »
For what purpose?
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Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: Microsoft's real stance on Indy developers
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2008, 02:30:11 PM »
For what purpose?

Ultimately gaining market share. It's how to find as many markets to be successful in as possible for job security. It's like investing in insurance for the future while you have the money to do it.

It's forcing the issue.  I mean, at least the 'box has a household name now and a larger more devoted base.
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Offline Flames_of_chaos

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Re: Microsoft's real stance on Indy developers
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2008, 03:07:43 PM »
Then again Microsoft's antics with hardware and subscription management made them toss consumer confidence out the window this generation.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Microsoft's real stance on Indy developers
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2008, 03:33:26 AM »
Atari? From zero to winner. Nintendo? From zero to winner. Sony? From zero to winner. Microsoft? Uh...

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Re: Microsoft's real stance on Indy developers
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2008, 03:49:54 AM »
Quote from: destructoid.com
Source
Any indie developer will tell you it's a challenge to create the title of your dreams, but the bigger hurdle by far is getting the game published and distributed -- by someone that won't rape you for all you're worth. In a recent Gamasutra editorial by Ron Carmel of 2D Boy (developer of World of Goo), he takes a conversational tone towards Microsoft while addressing what he identifies as their three key moves that have turned off indie developers:

    1. Xbox Live Arcade royalties cut by about half
    2. De-listing of games from XBLA
    3. Xbox Live Community Games terms established

Ouch. We certainly are aware of those first two, as they have been discussed to death by developers and fans alike, but Carmel goes on to address the flaws in the recent Xbox Live Community Games announcement, pointing out price limitations and how game promotion can be a double-edged sword:

    "If the royalty rate drops from 70 percent to 40 percent for the promotional period, the promotion would barely affect the developer's bottom line, only stuffing Microsoft's pockets. Worse, if sales do not nearly double, developers actually lose money due to the promotion. Nickel and diming developers will not help XBLCG get the best games and is in my opinion a myopic strategy."

Will any of Carmel's opinions make a difference to a behemoth like Microsoft? I want to say it's unlikely, but at the same time I applaud him for standing up and clarifying thoughts that many others may have, but don't speak aloud. The indie pool is where some of today's most dynamic ideas are coming from, and I can only hope the courage Carmel displayed in speaking his mind here will be an inspiration to others to stand up for the games they create.

Even with the Wii's "Draconian" 40MB size limit on WiiWare stuff I bet it's more friendly than XBLA, I think the profit ratio on WiiWare is  Developer/publisher 70/30 Nintendo which can still be amazing considering how Nintendo was always stingy with licensing pricing.  And last time I checked 70% profit to the game creator is much better and more inviting than the 40% that Microsoft offers.

Only thing is that Nintendo supplies zero help to indie developers through software tools or internal support, whereas Microsoft has a whole department devoted to helping devs (indie or not) with their projects (XBOX or not). Also, XNA game development studio thingy, which is a huge deal.

I find it funny that they've completely ignored Nintendo's presence in the market in this regard by choosing to **** their potential indie devs just as WiiWare debuts.

No one's perfect, but Nintendo has never been helpful to indies, no matter what they say when announcing/launching WiiWare; Microsoft has more follow through on this, even if it's just baby-steps in comparison.
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Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: Microsoft's real stance on Indy developers
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2008, 06:27:37 AM »
40% profit (not including expenses) kinda sucks. Especially if you didn't use any of that what I'm betting is just WONDERFUL "support".
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Offline Ceric

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Re: Microsoft's real stance on Indy developers
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2008, 11:12:13 AM »
I hear the Microsoft development tools are vastly superior to both what Nintendo and especially Sony has.
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Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: Microsoft's real stance on Indy developers
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2008, 12:29:02 PM »
I hear the Microsoft development tools are vastly superior to both what Nintendo and especially Sony has.

That doesn't surprise me at all honesetly.
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