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Community Forums => General Chat => Movies & TV => Topic started by: ThePerm on April 07, 2019, 07:12:38 PM
Title: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ThePerm on April 07, 2019, 07:12:38 PM
Rian Johnson left an abysmal launching point with The Last Jedi.
How would you right the course?
I'd make Luke come back. He learned to teleport. He'll also be wearing all white like Gandalf did when Gandalf came back. Finn and Poe will do something during this movie.
Also, they should not have cut this scene from The Last Jedi
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: ThePerm on April 07, 2019, 07:29:44 PM
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: nickmitch on April 07, 2019, 07:38:36 PM
WOW! That was a deleted scene?! That is frustrating considering how I've felt about, and have seen others react to, Finn's character arc.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: UncleBob on April 07, 2019, 08:58:28 PM
That was actually a pretty cool scene.
I want to see Poe do some serious redemption. The guy has done pretty much nothing but screw up and get people killed. Either get rid of him or make him something useful.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: Stratos on April 07, 2019, 09:27:49 PM
I have lots of thoughts about the sequel trilogy and episode 9, but really I've burned out of Star Wars in general. Disney killed the joy and wonder for me. I wasn't a huge fan of 7, it was alright, but I waited until Jan/Feb to watch it because I had no one to go with earlier. By then they 'hype' had me expecting a much better product that what we got. It wasn't horrible, but I didn't walk out the theater wowed like some others were. 8 was a hot mess, only movie ever where the whole group of us who went walked out speechless. Completely speechless. I asked how my buddy felt and he said he wasn't sure, and I concurred.
The only new film I have truly enjoyed was Rogue One.
Also, that deleted scene was good. Would have been great to keep as one of my bigger complaints was how little stuff of substance Finn was doing in the film.
I am purposely holding low expectations, and don't feel a need to go see it right away. I think BnM said it best in another thread where Marvel is this generation's Star Wars. Hopefully Lucasfilm learns some lessons from Marvel and future post-Sequel Trilogy products turn out better by actually having a bigger game plan for their product instead of just letting a director make up whatever pops into his head.
Dave Filoni is the closest thing Lucasfilm has to Kevin Feige, I'd give executive control to him as his work on Clone Wars and Rebels is some of the best stuff to come out of Star Wars in a good while.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: Stratos on April 07, 2019, 09:38:23 PM
I want to see Poe do some serious redemption. The guy has done pretty much nothing but screw up and get people killed. Either get rid of him or make him something useful.
That isn't Poe's fault. That was the poor decision making of leadership. Holdo was acting more like an Imperial commander than anyone on the First Order side was. Demand blind trust without waver or questioning? That's sounding like a totalitarian dictator. They are a loosely formed coalition of resistance ('rebel') fighters. They are accountable to each other. Her refusal to share ANYTHING was a huge error in leadership and as the situation got more dire it was understandable people were growing more desperate.
If they went the traitor route it could have made some sense to hide details from people like Poe. Make it that someone was tracking them and they needed to find out who. Finn and Rose try to find the mole and Finn is framed for being a spy. Makes sense as he just defected from the FO. Now Rose must find the real mole and exonerate Finn so save them.
Also, Holdo and Leia's plan was awful. Scanners could have easily picked them up and there was only one planet nearby. It was doomed to go the way it did from the start.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: UncleBob on April 07, 2019, 10:04:01 PM
Poe is a nobody and Holdo/Leia sure do not owe him any kind of explanation - which is doubled down after the **** he pulled at the beginning of the movie. He should have been throw in the brig (out the airlock) after that for killing half the remaining resistance.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: lolmonade on April 07, 2019, 10:17:51 PM
Rian Johnson left an abysmal launching point with The Last Jedi.
How would you right the course?
I would get Rian Johnson to direct episode IX and keep J.J. Abrams in a galaxy far, far away from Star Wars properties.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: pokepal148 on April 07, 2019, 10:26:45 PM
Holdo was a pointless character and TLJ would have been a better movie if Admiral Ackbar took her role in TLJ.
I'm saying that as someone who liked The Last Jedi.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: Spak-Spang on April 07, 2019, 10:36:28 PM
The Marvel movies work in ways Star Wars can't. The Star Wars films are one film series in one universe. They have themes and an overall story, but the world isn't really the highlight of the series it is the characters and overall pull and move towards the progression of the series. With each movie we are shaping the world and moving it forward.
Marvel is a single universe with tons of characters. But those characters all have different themes and directions. Antman is about family and redemption. He is a man that is trying to do right for his family and learn to be apart of a new family. It is balancing past sins while trying to make right for the people you love now. You can easily make a trilogy out of that, which they will.
In fact, each of the film series are individual trilogies that just happen to be in a shared universe. That is why it can support over 20 films in the franchise. Star Wars doesn't really have that deep pool of characters and themes to draw upon. And the newest trilogy proves that. I have no idea what the themes of the sequel trilogy are for character, overall plot and such. Maybe you don't have to be special to be special?
The Iron Man trilogy has a theme of midlife crisis and facing your legacy and your mistakes head one. Among other themes.
Captain America is about standing for your values in a world that does not accept or believe in your values anymore. All 3 of his films have elements of this theme, and how it takes its toll breaking Steve Rogers.
Guardians of the Galaxy is about finding yourself and your identity mixed with family identity and brokenness.
These are all strong themes that can carry film series that just happen to share a universe. Marvel is not this generation's Star Wars. Marvel is something grander and bigger and something Star Wars was never, and could never be.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: Spak-Spang on April 07, 2019, 10:39:39 PM
Holdo was a pointless character and TLJ would have been a better movie if Admiral Ackbar took her role in TLJ.
I'm saying that as someone who liked The Last Jedi.
Storytelling 101: Don't add new characters for the sake of adding a character. Admiral Ackbar could have played her role with literally no change, and in fact it would have possibly made his reluctance to share the plan make more sense, because he fell into an imperial trap once before and almost lost everything.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: pokepal148 on April 07, 2019, 10:53:13 PM
It would also have been a much more meaningful sacrifice with the hyperspace ramming thing because Ackbar is a fairly iconic character in the series, to the point that some of the Naysayers would probably have been willing to accept the wrecking ball that scene took to the series's continuity since honestly that's the death that he deserved, going out in a blaze of glory and taking out an entire Imperial First Order fleet with him.
I wouldn't be surprised if the only reason that didn't happen is because some Disney exec didn't like the really unfortunate implications that came with someone with the name "Ackbar" making a kamikaze attack, which led to Holdo being created.
Also just kill Leia off, ffs. There is no way trying to shoehorn her into episode 9 with unused footage from episode 7 or whatever won't be awkward as hell and you already said you won't CGI her so get rid of her.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: nickmitch on April 07, 2019, 11:10:51 PM
Glad you mentioned that, Pokepal, because it's exactly what I was thinking.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: ThePerm on April 08, 2019, 01:13:57 AM
I'd have killed her off on Episode VIII. They had plenty of opportunities.
The thing at the beginning of the movie with Poe that made him useless for the rest of the movie. That shouldn't have happened. His arch should have been totally different. His arch should have been him doing something meaningful that makes the later part of the movie better.
Get rid of Holdo and Rose. Pair Finn and Poe. Or introduce Holdo and Rose and give them some interesting C plot. Just don't have them argue the entire movie or go on geese chases. They should have realized that was pointless cinema and rewrote the script.
And "I don't have gas for my car and the killer is after me" is for horror movies
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: Stratos on April 08, 2019, 11:09:31 AM
It would also have been a much more meaningful sacrifice with the hyperspace ramming thing because Ackbar is a fairly iconic character in the series, to the point that some of the Naysayers would probably have been willing to accept the wrecking ball that scene took to the series's continuity since honestly that's the death that he deserved, going out in a blaze of glory and taking out an entire Imperial First Order fleet with him.
I wouldn't be surprised if the only reason that didn't happen is because some Disney exec didn't like the really unfortunate implications that came with someone with the name "Ackbar" making a kamikaze attack, which led to Holdo being created.
Also just kill Leia off, ffs. There is no way trying to shoehorn her into episode 9 with unused footage from episode 7 or whatever won't be awkward as hell and you already said you won't CGI her so get rid of her.
The sad thing is that they probably did intend to give that role to Akbar, but the actor who played him in 6 and 7 passed away so the wrote him out unceremoniously. It should have been Akbar, and if they really wanted to write him out, Leia should have been in that spot. Luke could have force-miraged his way to the bridge and had a meaningful conversation with Leia, maybe calling back to the End of Empire when Luke called out to Leia. Have her call to him, he appears and talks to her, she tells him it is the only way to to please help the resistance, he is their only hope. He could reassure her that he will and stay with her via the force through the explosion. Could have been a lovely send-off to her, and give Luke additional personal motivation to get back into the fight.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: Spak-Spang on April 08, 2019, 07:11:45 PM
It would also have been a much more meaningful sacrifice with the hyperspace ramming thing because Ackbar is a fairly iconic character in the series, to the point that some of the Naysayers would probably have been willing to accept the wrecking ball that scene took to the series's continuity since honestly that's the death that he deserved, going out in a blaze of glory and taking out an entire Imperial First Order fleet with him.
I wouldn't be surprised if the only reason that didn't happen is because some Disney exec didn't like the really unfortunate implications that came with someone with the name "Ackbar" making a kamikaze attack, which led to Holdo being created.
Also just kill Leia off, ffs. There is no way trying to shoehorn her into episode 9 with unused footage from episode 7 or whatever won't be awkward as hell and you already said you won't CGI her so get rid of her.
The sad thing is that they probably did intend to give that role to Akbar, but the actor who played him in 6 and 7 passed away so the wrote him out unceremoniously. It should have been Akbar, and if they really wanted to write him out, Leia should have been in that spot. Luke could have force-miraged his way to the bridge and had a meaningful conversation with Leia, maybe calling back to the End of Empire when Luke called out to Leia. Have her call to him, he appears and talks to her, she tells him it is the only way to to please help the resistance, he is their only hope. He could reassure her that he will and stay with her via the force through the explosion. Could have been a lovely send-off to her, and give Luke additional personal motivation to get back into the fight.
That would make the movie much better, and give Luke more personality. Explaining that Luke wasn't hiding from everyone but trusted Leia with his situation. Then have Luke stay with Leia until the end would be pretty cool. However, the problem is that would take the surprise ending away from the movie away. Which honestly, would have been OK, but would people still want Luke to be involved for real in that last battle.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 08, 2019, 07:13:08 PM
Episode IX is going to start with Rey saying "Luke, stop daydreaming and take your lightsaber!" Anything less than this will be a failure.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: broodwars on April 09, 2019, 12:31:49 AM
Poe is a nobody and Holdo/Leia sure do not owe him any kind of explanation - which is doubled down after the **** he pulled at the beginning of the movie. He should have been throw in the brig (out the airlock) after that for killing half the remaining resistance.
From what I understand, "that **** he pulled at the beginning of the movie" was the only reason the rest of the movie could even happen because Poe took out the Dreadnaught that would have caught up to the heroes and gunned them down. Because he did that, the First Order had to spend the rest of the movie chasing the heroes, which is what led to Holdo & Leia's plan even being feasible.
From everything I've heard about The Last Jedi, Poe is one of the few characters who consistently acts logically the entire movie.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: UncleBob on April 09, 2019, 12:58:02 AM
Wait... "heard about"?
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: pokepal148 on April 09, 2019, 01:37:03 AM
Poe's only mission was to take out the Dreadnought's cannons. That's it. Without the cannons that Dreadnought is pretty useless but Poe thought ordering an attack from the Resistance bomber fleet to destroy it completely was a good idea and so the resistance no longer has bomber fleet.
Also, Broodwars, you should maybe try watching the movie you're hitching about. That might help.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: BeautifulShy on April 09, 2019, 06:39:41 AM
Poe's only mission was to take out the Dreadnought's cannons. That's it. Without the cannons that Dreadnought is pretty useless but Poe thought ordering an attack from the Resistance bomber fleet to destroy it completely was a good idea and so the resistance no longer has bomber fleet.
Also, Broodwars, you should maybe try watching the movie you're hitching about. That might help.
To tie in with what pokepal said the last bomber that was alive was Roses sister and she died doing that bombing run. Leia pretty much commanded Poe to not engage any futher with the whole dreadnaught because of the cost of life it would cause and she was right. You don't want heroes when your resistance force is so little and dwindling. Flash forward to the end of the movie Finn is charging down the battering ram cannon and is acting as wreckless as Poe was at the start of the movie and Poe tells him to stand down and Finn keeps going and Rose has to stop him. These type of things tie in with each other in the themes.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: nickmitch on April 09, 2019, 12:28:54 PM
But Rose's sister died because her bomb dropper thing got stuck. That's not really Poe's fault.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: ThePerm on April 09, 2019, 02:57:11 PM
But Rose's sister died because her bomb dropper thing got stuck. That's not really Poe's fault.
Rose's sister died because Poe disobeyed a direct order from his commander. Period.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: nickmitch on April 09, 2019, 03:12:58 PM
Eh. Could've gone either way.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: Spak-Spang on April 10, 2019, 12:22:52 AM
You know Star Wars has not had a consistent message on authority and positions. Rebels basically was all about that little group disobeying orders and making it work. Rogue One basically had a female main lead that was screw authority. If you wanted to drive the point home that it is Poe's mistake then it should have been solely his mistake that caused Rose's sister's death. Otherwise you could equally argue her bombs could have worked and the Star Destroyer is blown up and everything is Rosey.
Honestly, I cared for none of the characters in that movie, except for Luke and Rey.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: broodwars on April 10, 2019, 12:55:47 AM
I thought I made it perfectly clear in that other thread that I stopped watching Disney Star Wars after The Force Awakens, and I don't plan on changing that anytime soon other than finishing off Rebels.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: UncleBob on April 10, 2019, 03:25:40 AM
Well that's disingenuous. Go ahead. Point out where in my earlier post in this thread I complained about The Last Jedi. I asked for clarification on a plot point. Hell, I don't think you'll find complaints from me about the non-Force Awakens films in the OTHER thread, either.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: UncleBob on April 10, 2019, 09:20:05 AM
Look, man... I'm not so invested in Star Wars (new, prequel, or original) that I'm willing to take the time to clarify plot points of a movie in order to try and discuss it with someone who isn't even interested enough to actually watch the movie to begin with.
Cheers!
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: pokepal148 on April 10, 2019, 01:29:08 PM
Poe is a nobody and Holdo/Leia sure do not owe him any kind of explanation - which is doubled down after the **** he pulled at the beginning of the movie. He should have been throw in the brig (out the airlock) after that for killing half the remaining resistance.
From what I understand, "that **** he pulled at the beginning of the movie" was the only reason the rest of the movie could even happen because Poe took out the Dreadnaught that would have caught up to the heroes and gunned them down. Because he did that, the First Order had to spend the rest of the movie chasing the heroes, which is what led to Holdo & Leia's plan even being feasible.
From everything I've heard about The Last Jedi, Poe is one of the few characters who consistently acts logically the entire movie.
This sounds more like hitching about a movie you haven't seen to me.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: ThePerm on April 11, 2019, 04:57:41 PM
I thought I made it perfectly clear in that other thread that I stopped watching Disney Star Wars after The Force Awakens, and I don't plan on changing that anytime soon other than finishing off Rebels.
Well the thing about the four Star Wars movies that have come out is peoples opinions vary widely. If you didn't like Force Awakens you might like The Last Jedi. If you didn't like Either you might like Rogue One. You could have a weird mixed opinion about Solo where you dislike that it isn't Harrison Ford but overall like the rest of the movie. They're a mixed bag. I don't think you can judge the current crop of Star Wars based on one entry. They all have different directors. I'm interested in The Mandalorian series upcoming mainly because everything John Favreu touches is gold.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: BeautifulShy on April 12, 2019, 11:51:11 AM
So I guess that there is a Star Wars Celebration today in Chicago IL. It looks like it is going to start in 10 minutes and go for a hour over here.
For BnM. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnhiLZOprZE
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: BeautifulShy on April 12, 2019, 01:14:19 PM
Looks like we have a subtitle for episode 9. The Rise of Skywalker and it is coming out this Christmas.
Also here is the teaser trailer from the celebration.
For BnM. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adzYW5DZoWs
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: nickmitch on April 12, 2019, 01:41:18 PM
I guess that confirms Rey is a Skywalker. I'm really interested in seeing how that works out story-wise.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: BeautifulShy on April 12, 2019, 01:52:36 PM
I guess I could see that but it would be a bit of a retcon from TLJ where Kylo Ren said to Rey that her parents were nobody and that she didn't really have a place in the Skywalker family. Which I think is an interesting take on things. I mean you don't have to have some sort of lineage to be important.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX
Post by: nickmitch on April 12, 2019, 02:11:12 PM
I liked that take as well. But Kylo could've easily lying to her. I just can't interpret the title another way, unless Leia becomes queen or something, but that's a bigger stretch for many reasons.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 12, 2019, 03:09:16 PM
It could be Ben Skywalker.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: King of Twitch on April 12, 2019, 03:54:58 PM
Palpy keeping himself alive with the force at the bottom of the wrecked DS with broken legs for 36 years? What if Rey meets him and HE does a flashback, only he tells it wrong/lies, and they cgi-rework the RoTJ battle in his chamber?
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: UncleBob on April 12, 2019, 04:10:10 PM
I liked that take as well. But Kylo could've easily lying to her.
I've never understood the outrage over this. So many fanboys were mad that she was a "nobody", but she got that information second hand from the bad guy. Why do we take the bad guy at face value?
Hell, when Vader was all "I am your father", Luke's initial reaction was all 'you're lying.' (even though it turned out he wasn't)... Why is Luke the only one alive that jumps to disbelief of what the bad guys claim?
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Shorty McNostril on April 12, 2019, 05:05:57 PM
Teaser looks great to me. I adored Force Awakens and I trust JJ to salvage something good from the dumpster fire that was Last Jedi. Apparently they've also said that Star Wars movies are going on a break for a while after 9's release. I think this is a great idea. The wounds from the Last Jedi are still very much raw for many viewers and consequently there is a lot of distrust with the franchise now. Solo showed that.
As for the Palpatine laugh. I reckon they might be drawing some inspiration from the EU story when Palpatine was cloned. If they want to restore some in from the fanbase then incorporating some ideas from the old EU would be a good start. This also adds some credibility to that rumour a while ago that they were casting Mara Jade for 9. If Grand Admiral Thrawn turns up then I reckon all the sins of TLJ will be balanced.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: nickmitch on April 12, 2019, 05:43:00 PM
I liked that take as well. But Kylo could've easily lying to her.
I've never understood the outrage over this. So many fanboys were mad that she was a "nobody", but she got that information second hand from the bad guy. Why do we take the bad guy at face value?
Hell, when Vader was all "I am your father", Luke's initial reaction was all 'you're lying.' (even though it turned out he wasn't)... Why is Luke the only one alive that jumps to disbelief of what the bad guys claim?
I didn't get that either. It grows the universe to have more magical people than just the one guy's extended family and maybe two others.
As far as taking Kylo Ren at face value, I can see why you would in the moment, especially since the issue of her lineage is basically dropped from there, but. . .eh. . .he's the bad guy.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Adrock on April 12, 2019, 05:49:25 PM
Ehh, I liked both The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi (despite its faults). The whole “rise of Skywalker” thing seems to contradict the “let the past die” stuff which is kind of a bummer. I liked that concept thematically.
I also liked Rey being a “nobody.” So now, I suppose it’s possible that she is Leia’s (but not Han’s) daughter and Kylo Ren’s half-sister, perhaps conceived during one of times Han left that was stated in The Force Awakens. I don’t know what the age difference between Rey and Kylo Ren is supposed to be so maybe the timeline doesn’t work here, but maybe Leia gave Rey up when Ben turned, fearing she may lose another child to the Dark Side. If you think that’s kind of cold, this is the same saga that this basically happened:
Padme: Since I’m dying suddenly, I hope Leia becomes a princess. Luke can be a farmer or some **** on the same planet his father was a slave before he murdered a bunch of sand people. LOL. Wait, is “sand people” racist? Oh well, gtg.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ThePerm on April 12, 2019, 07:27:38 PM
This was a good time to make this thread. Maybe a little too coincidental...
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ShyGuy on April 12, 2019, 09:47:21 PM
I heard a trailer came out today.
edit: there it is!
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on April 12, 2019, 10:10:04 PM
Star Wars 9: Rise of the Retcons.
I really don't get why anybody has faith in JJ. Dude is a con man with nothing but trash boxes. If it was in any other career he would be a hobo by now.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 13, 2019, 12:26:44 AM
you all know I'm no SW person, but trailer looked interesting. I'm going to need something to fill the void after I binge watch all MCU related content on D+ this fall/winter.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ThePerm on April 13, 2019, 04:59:52 AM
I really don't get why anybody has faith in JJ. Dude is a con man with nothing but trash boxes. If it was in any other career he would be a hobo by now.
I saw Mission Impossible 3.
Not everything he does is mystery boxes. He is not Damon Lindelof. I know you really disliked his "mystery box" ted talk he did years ago, but pretty much everything he starts has been excellent. The problem is he has stepped away and done other things and his successors have ruined them.
The only criticism I could levy on him is that he mainly does nostalgic material. I think it's well put together material though. I think this will be a test, as he does get a chance to be on the finishing end of something in this case.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Spak-Spang on April 13, 2019, 09:55:03 AM
Maybe the Rise is of Ben Solo? I mean he is still a Skywalker! Maybe he is redeemed, or maybe it is a remark of Luke Skywalker ultimate win after death, as he understands more of the force than anyone else. This concept that with the force losers dying and the left over force users getting stronger and stronger, this idea of their essence or presence being within those left over. Maybe the true lightside doesn't just absorb their powers, but partners with their spirits...and the the force spirits lending their power and wisdom.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: pokepal148 on April 13, 2019, 06:12:45 PM
Apparently Palpatine is making some kind of appearance in Episode 9.
They better not try to make him suddenly the main villain.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Spak-Spang on April 13, 2019, 06:23:01 PM
Yawn. Palpatine was a perfect villain for the first 6 movies. Seeing his rise to power was interesting, and seeing him be the main villain so that Darth Vader could have a redemption arc is interesting, but that story is done. Bringing him back would be a mistake as big as bringing Darth Maul back. I don't care if the stories in the cartoon were interesting, it hurts the movie, and honestly what they did with him in Rebels sucked.
I think it would be interesting to just let the relationship and conflict between Rey and Kylo play out with both being stuck in there positions of leadership and involvement. The natural conclusion to this trilogy is a new understanding of the force which is neither light or dark. But understanding that it involves personal responsibility and logic to wield the force neutrally.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: BeautifulShy on April 13, 2019, 06:26:57 PM
I kinda think that Palpatine is going to be more of a guiding force for Kylo and allow him to embrace the dark side more. Plus I think having him here in IX will tie in with the Original and prequel trilogies. Also I am kinda thinking Snoke was the big bad for this trilogy but what if Snoke was just a shell or façade for Palpatine and now he is released into the world with Snokes death?
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ThePerm on April 13, 2019, 06:29:04 PM
Apparently Palpatine is making some kind of appearance in Episode 9.
They better not try to make him suddenly the main villain.
He set him self up real good with that Darth Plagueis speech.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: pokepal148 on April 13, 2019, 06:41:19 PM
It's not even like Maul who was barely a character in episode 1 who got a ton of cool much needed development in TCW and Rebels and than got to be in THE best Lightsaber duel in the franchise.
for BNM (https://youtu.be/QaVYu0LPsSU)
Palpatine is pretty much covered. There really isn't much that you can do with him that hasn't already been done. None of the attempts to bring him back in Legends were all that interesting either. He basically just fluffed around in clones of himself during that arc and got himself killed than too.
I just don't see what they could do with him that would be interesting enough to be worth bringing him back, and doing so imo hurts all 6 of the original Star Wars movies.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Stratos on April 13, 2019, 06:53:22 PM
Fans had justification for the "you're nobody" because there was a huge tease she was someone important in TFA. But like a lot of the things teased by JJ in TFA, they were promptly dropped off a cliff and fans were shamed for their hopes and theories on the matter. There was an expected audience payoff and it never happened. They could have gone with the "she's nobody" path, but not after Maz curiously asks about who the girl is and the scene cuts away before Han can explain. Not after she is being built up as somebody the viewers would care about. If it was just her flailing about looking for meaning, and then the revelation she was in fact nobody and had to forge her own path, fine, it would have been a fun -or at the very least interesting- path to follow.
I don't really blame JJ for that, its been clear in recent interviews that JJ had an overarching plan and Rian Johnson decided to blatantly ignore that plan and do his own thing. Now JJ not only has to finish what he started, but he has to clean up the divergence that Johnson did the the plan, which may have forced him to alter the plan (pray he doesn't alter the plan any further...heh).
Also, trailer was meh for me. I don't think Kylo should be redeemed, but feels like they are setting it up as such. And the title leaves a lot to be desired. Its not Attack of the Clones bad, but it is right after it on the poor title list.
Not so sure Kylo should get a redemption, and it feels like he is being setup for that.
Also hoping we don't get a revived Emperor, though it won't be absolutely doomed if it is a revived Emperor. In the previous film trailers there were lines by Skywalker that were not in the film itself, so I imagine there was a lot of misdirection displayed here.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Stratos on April 13, 2019, 06:56:04 PM
I liked the Dark Empire 1/2/Empire's End stories (the EU comics involving the revived Emperor), but they would need a lot of extra nuance to pull that off. In them Luke thought the only way to defeat the clone Emperor was to learn from him and so willingly fell to the darkside, requiring Leia to pull him back. Could have played that angle with Ben choosing to join Snoke in order to learn how to beat him, but they can't do that with one movie left. Now, if the rumors of breaking it up into two films were true, there would be a lot more wiggle room to tease these things out.
Another great EU plot was the appearance of Exar-Kun, the sith lord who swayed one of Luke's students to the darkside.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Adrock on April 13, 2019, 07:23:24 PM
Snoke = Darth Plagueis like everyone originally thought except that isn't the big reveal. "He could save others from death but not himself." The big reveal is Darth Plagueis actually can save himself from death, and he did after Palpatine killed him (the laugh in the trailer is a flashback to Palpatine killing Snoke), and he does after Kylo Ren kills him, but it isn't an instantaneous thing. He has to use the Force or midi-chlorians to "reassemble" himself. That would explain Snoke's scars and why he's so withered. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Stratos on April 13, 2019, 07:45:43 PM
I could get behind that, Adrock. Maybe give us a good callback to the Plagueis scene in RotS.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Spak-Spang on April 13, 2019, 08:40:13 PM
That would be interesting. Then Plagueis is too powerful for the Dark and Light side to ignore and together they truly take him out. Or Plagueis decides that the only apprentice worth keeping is Palpatine and brings him back. However, I really don't care for that direction. I like the idea that the dead stay dead, but I guess Star Wars has never really focused on that, and since the Force Ghosts can now do cool things in the real world, I guess resurrecting ones one body isn't that far fetched. Maybe Plagueis foolishly revives Darth Vader because he killed the Emperor, not knowing that he is good now. Then the prophecy could be truly fulfilled.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Adrock on April 13, 2019, 09:32:08 PM
I don’t think Snoke should be able bring anyone back from the dead, just himself. If Lucasfilm/J.J. Abrams want to connect the trilogies, this could work. I vaguely remember reading that a dropped plot thread (or at least severely downplayed one) was Palpatine or Plagueis created Anakin Skywalker using midi-chlorians. Palpatine lied to Anakin about having the power to save the ones he loved, but that was the goal. Through sheer knowledge of the Force, Plagueis learned to create life, resurrect himself, and was working toward resurrecting others. He refused to teach Palpatine any of this so Palpatine killed his master and continued the work himself. To bring the trilogies full circle, a Skywalker, a line created by Plagueis himself, destroys him once and for all.
Not sure I ever brought this up before, I still like the idea that midi-chlorians represent the failure of the Jedi. Midi-chlorians are some hack way of explaining the Force in fiction and real life. The mystery and mysticism of the Force was always the most intriguing thing about it. Thousands of years of the Jedi trying to explain and control the Force led to their eventual downfall. It goes back to Luke’s first lesson to Rey: And that is the lesson. That force does not belong to the Jedi. To say that if the Jedi die, the light dies is vanity. Basically, what I’m getting at is that midi-chlorians are at best an imprecise method of measuring connection to the Force. The Jedi, in their hubris, leaned into that false understanding and hinged their entire order on that understanding and it ultimately cost them everything. The Jedi were so vain with their “knowledge” of the Force they had no idea that a Sith (Plagueis) was so far ahead of them and Palpatine was plotting right under their noses.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ShyGuy on April 14, 2019, 04:20:42 AM
What if Luke comes back as a zombie? and starts biting people?
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ThePerm on April 14, 2019, 05:13:25 AM
What if Luke comes back as a zombie? and starts biting people?
That's in a alternate realities where Disney gives no fucks or are better businesspeople.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Order.RSS on April 14, 2019, 06:19:33 AM
I'll just chime in here for the sake of variety, not trying to ruffle any feathers, just a casual observer's take. Don't really care for Star Wars in general, haven't seen them all, and don't have super strong feelings on the series as a whole. But my favourites by FAR are Empire Strikes Back, and more recently Last Jedi for finally steering the franchise away from chosen-one-destiny stuff. Was really hoping they'd double down on that direction, but it looks like the squabbles of a single family bloodline are back with full Force.
Trailer looks decent, but also very tired as an outside observer. We're still having old characters do victory laps 3 movies later from the looks of it. At least so far I'm not seeing those corny old scene transitions JJ Abrams brought back for the 7th (?) movie, but who knows.
I'm happy for the fans that they get to speculate again about family intricacies and lineages, about recycled evil laughs, and that Lando is back and stuff. But this isn't convincing to a more casual fan like me who wants to like the series. Last Jedi felt like it had teeth and understood many of the series' underpinning flaws, and wasn't afraid to claw at them. Yeah it wasn't perfect, but even its weird diversions (the casino tangent) were trying to make points the whole franchise seemed unwilling to face before. The end of Last Jedi felt like it was trying to break the whole 'everything is about the Skywalkers' mould right open, but now I'm not sure if they'll actually follow up on it.
I understand that Last Jedi to many felt like it bore an active grudge against Star Wars, but precisely that slightly self-concious nature is why it appealed to casuals like me. Granted they haven't showed much of the next one, but right now it seems mostly focused on the long-term fanbase (I would do the same if I was their marketing department btw).
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Adrock on April 14, 2019, 11:05:20 AM
But my favourites by FAR are Empire Strikes Back, and more recently Last Jedi for finally steering the franchise away from chosen-one-destiny stuff. Was really hoping they'd double down on that direction, but it looks like the squabbles of a single family bloodline are back with full Force.
Yeah, that was the impression I had. Star Wars itself isn’t about the Skywalker line. However, the numbered episodes are. The Last Jedi felt like it was trying to prepare fans and non-fans for the eventuality of Star Wars being more than the Skywalker Saga.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ThePerm on April 14, 2019, 11:41:12 PM
I don't think Rey is a Skywalker. Second I think the Rise of Skywalker refers to Luke.
Not everything he does is mystery boxes. He is not Damon Lindelof. I know you really disliked his "mystery box" ted talk he did years ago, but pretty much everything he starts has been excellent. The problem is he has stepped away and done other things and his successors have ruined them.
The only criticism I could levy on him is that he mainly does nostalgic material. I think it's well put together material though. I think this will be a test, as he does get a chance to be on the finishing end of something in this case.
MI:3 had the Rabbit's foot a literal container we didn't know anything about besides being implied as expensive and dangerous. Most of the plot happens because reason. It's a very disjointed movie as it is a bunch of Alias scenes strung together with the minimum on connective tissue. Musgrave the traitor just comes out of nowhere.
JJ isn't just the most visible Mystery Box, it's the nonsense, lack of substance. What do you know about Hoffman's character compared to those in Fallout? Fallout has ideals, non-money goals, outside connections. MI:3 is just Hoffman chewing scenery with an organization that can arbitrary do stuff.
Does the hero's failure during the movie makes the difference to the story? Felicity dying makes no difference, Hunt is sad for a moment but that's it, she got put in the fridge. From that point on Hunt doesn't fail when he can influence the outcome.
Fallout the Cores is the goal, his point of failure that reveals his strength that those who know him value more highly than anything else especially the IMF secretary. He has repeated failure that tests his ideals. Being Ethan Hunt isn't easy and has serious down sides.
Hunt is still the head liner but in every other movie it's far more of a team effort where they play linchpin roles.
There is there how the movies are shot and presented. JJ is GO FAST shaking and pew pew lights. To distract you from the nonsense just long enough to have an initial good impression before the whole thing falls apart to a slightest thought.
JJ doesn't know how to lay a foundation, just look at the opening crawl to TFA. Anything that follows is destined to fail, never remembered fondly, Star Trek, Star Wars, Lost, Alias. Sure they made some immediate money which gets attributed to him but he always washes his hands right after. With ST/SW he got the Brand with a lot of thirsty fans. Thirsty enough that they would drink just about anything.
MI series is something of a Unicorn as Tom Cruise is the show runner, the guy who keeps it from flying apart. I helps that it severed from JJ outright taking only Simon Pegg and Hunt's wife.
There are people talking about watching Episode 9 out of obligation. That is fucked up.
I'll just chime in here for the sake of variety, not trying to ruffle any feathers, just a casual observer's take. Don't really care for Star Wars in general, haven't seen them all, and don't have super strong feelings on the series as a whole. But my favourites by FAR are Empire Strikes Back, and more recently Last Jedi for finally steering the franchise away from chosen-one-destiny stuff. Was really hoping they'd double down on that direction, but it looks like the squabbles of a single family bloodline are back with full Force.
Trailer looks decent, but also very tired as an outside observer. We're still having old characters do victory laps 3 movies later from the looks of it. At least so far I'm not seeing those corny old scene transitions JJ Abrams brought back for the 7th (?) movie, but who knows.
I'm happy for the fans that they get to speculate again about family intricacies and lineages, about recycled evil laughs, and that Lando is back and stuff. But this isn't convincing to a more casual fan like me who wants to like the series. Last Jedi felt like it had teeth and understood many of the series' underpinning flaws, and wasn't afraid to claw at them. Yeah it wasn't perfect, but even its weird diversions (the casino tangent) were trying to make points the whole franchise seemed unwilling to face before. The end of Last Jedi felt like it was trying to break the whole 'everything is about the Skywalkers' mould right open, but now I'm not sure if they'll actually follow up on it.
I understand that Last Jedi to many felt like it bore an active grudge against Star Wars, but precisely that slightly self-concious nature is why it appealed to casuals like me. Granted they haven't showed much of the next one, but right now it seems mostly focused on the long-term fanbase (I would do the same if I was their marketing department btw).
Rian was just being a contrarian and troll. There is a reason why "Subverting expectations" has become degoritory and a punchline. Rian didn't understand anything, he looked up TV tropes and did the reverse of said trope. Making a terrible movie when people are expecting a good movie isn't subverting expectations.
An example of actual subverted expectations would be a standard fight with Luke and Vadar Vs Emperor, maybe Vadar getting mortally wounded half way as a reversal. Luke's Force/combat prowess didn't factor into the final victory other than not dying. The conflict was ultimately a mental one.
Another example again with Luke is his fight with Vadar in ESB. Expectations would have been a close fight, to see Lukes greatly improved skills to show up Yoda who is telling him he isn't ready. Instead Luke gets stomped, Vadar is toying with him the whole time. Neither was done without in movie reason or subversion for subversion sake.
I am not sure why you think the legacy characters are doing victory laps in the sequels. Every movie has gone out of it's way to destroy, marginalise every legacy character's achievements, meaning, characters assassinated.
The trailer is pure desperation.
I would pay real money on "Jumping the Tie Fighter" becoming the new Jumping the Shark as did Nuke the Fridge did.
Yeah, that was the impression I had. Star Wars itself isn’t about the Skywalker line. However, the numbered episodes are. The Last Jedi felt like it was trying to prepare fans and non-fans for the eventuality of Star Wars being more than the Skywalker Saga.
OT wasn't about the blood line or chosen one thing. It was never sold it as such and Luke wasn't a chosen one. It's a Prequel retcon.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Spak-Spang on April 15, 2019, 01:05:54 AM
Besides, Luke wasn't the chosen one it was Darth Vader. He brought balance to the force by killing the Emperor. He came back from the Dark Side, because there was still goodness in him. The prophecy should have been fulfilled with that. Perhaps this is trilogy is about the aftermath of the prophecy. I hope it is the end of both the Jedi and Sith.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ThePerm on April 15, 2019, 01:14:10 AM
I didn't mind Nuke the Fridge because it was a callback to the original Back to the Future script. It was basically an elaborate in-joke.
Also, we don't know if Rey jumped the Tie Fighter. It cuts before we can see. She might have got rammed.
For all we know she turned and killed Rose Tika in a previous scene and this is Finn in a tiefighter they found in the battlefield getting just revenge.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on April 15, 2019, 03:07:28 AM
Nuke the fridge is a BttF callback what??! Where did this come from?. Hiding in the fridge wasn't the issue, it was how it got thrown like cartoon that should have killed Indy that fucked it. If it just tipped over and slide into some stuff it would have been seen as something clever. What terrible execution in a movie full of terrible execution, from Spielberg of all people.
Talk about subverting expectations. Finn doesn't stand a chance. At this point if it is really dumb I would believe over something that would make sense unless it is mediocre nonsense. Also thanks for confirming Endor Holocaust, good job breaking RotJ even more.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ThePerm on April 15, 2019, 04:38:09 AM
In the original BTTF script there is no Delorean. The time machine was originally just a refrigerator. Some producers thought kids would jump into refrigerators mimicking the movie so they changed it to a car. The end of BTTF was originally not Marty coming back via a bolt of lighting, he had to get in the time traveling refrigerator during a nuclear test and that would power his travel through time. It's probably why the scene where he talks about nukes in the classroom is still there.
Here's the storyboard with the Car.
The script went through a lot of revisions.
http://www.kristensheley.com/bttf/future.html
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Plugabugz on April 15, 2019, 07:12:25 AM
JJ's best work is when he's attached but not involved - Westworld, Person of Interest, Fringe.
Also, i wish the title was Skywalker Ascendant. I'm picking up TYP's hatred of The X of Y titles.
Jeff Goldblum also fixed the trailer: https://twitter.com/jeffreygoldbIum/status/1117143269765517312
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Spak-Spang on April 15, 2019, 07:16:47 AM
I can't believe EA has a better title for their game then the real movie. Actually Fallen Jedi would have been a good title for Episode 8.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Adrock on April 15, 2019, 09:07:03 AM
Yeah, that was the impression I had. Star Wars itself isn’t about the Skywalker line. However, the numbered episodes are. The Last Jedi felt like it was trying to prepare fans and non-fans for the eventuality of Star Wars being more than the Skywalker Saga.
OT wasn't about the blood line or chosen one thing. It was never sold it as such and Luke wasn't a chosen one. It's a Prequel retcon.
I didn’t say it was. I didn’t even mention the chosen one stuff. The numbered episodes are very much about the Skywalker family line without even considering prophecies and whatnot. Skywalkers play a pivotal role in every saga film even when one isn’t the main character. And the verdict is out on that one since Rey may end up being a Skywalker (which I’m ambivalent about).
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: lolmonade on April 15, 2019, 09:13:39 AM
I'll just chime in here for the sake of variety, not trying to ruffle any feathers, just a casual observer's take. Don't really care for Star Wars in general, haven't seen them all, and don't have super strong feelings on the series as a whole. But my favourites by FAR are Empire Strikes Back, and more recently Last Jedi for finally steering the franchise away from chosen-one-destiny stuff. Was really hoping they'd double down on that direction, but it looks like the squabbles of a single family bloodline are back with full Force.
Trailer looks decent, but also very tired as an outside observer. We're still having old characters do victory laps 3 movies later from the looks of it. At least so far I'm not seeing those corny old scene transitions JJ Abrams brought back for the 7th (?) movie, but who knows.
I'm happy for the fans that they get to speculate again about family intricacies and lineages, about recycled evil laughs, and that Lando is back and stuff. But this isn't convincing to a more casual fan like me who wants to like the series. Last Jedi felt like it had teeth and understood many of the series' underpinning flaws, and wasn't afraid to claw at them. Yeah it wasn't perfect, but even its weird diversions (the casino tangent) were trying to make points the whole franchise seemed unwilling to face before. The end of Last Jedi felt like it was trying to break the whole 'everything is about the Skywalkers' mould right open, but now I'm not sure if they'll actually follow up on it.
I understand that Last Jedi to many felt like it bore an active grudge against Star Wars, but precisely that slightly self-concious nature is why it appealed to casuals like me. Granted they haven't showed much of the next one, but right now it seems mostly focused on the long-term fanbase (I would do the same if I was their marketing department btw).
I loved star wars growing up.....and agree with everything you said. If anything, I feel like the constant "look whose back for this one!" suffocates the new characters' ability to be front and center and develop.
The original Trilogy is Luke's story. The prequels are mostly Anakin's Story. This new trilogy appears to be turning into....Luke's story again, as told by funneling most of what happens as justification to bringing Luke into the fray. I loved the whole line of "your parents were nobodies" to Rey - because 1) it freed her from having to have the shackles of a lineage in order to be important, and 2) it could have been a lie told by an unreliable narrator, and they can STILL end up an important people within the galaxy.
I also think the stance that "this director is actively being a troll to screw with fans and JJ Abrams" is kind of crazy. The inserting your own feelings on what a director's intentions are because they didn't take the story in a direction that you wanted in order to answer the questions you built up as important is crazy to me.
Like Steefo, I'm not trying to stir a pot and have kept relatively quiet in this thread that seems predominantly "Rian Johnston ruined Star Wars", but he elaborated on some points I feel are important to the alternative perspective, even if y'all are presumably getting what you want with ep. IX.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on April 15, 2019, 12:48:53 PM
I didn’t say it was. I didn’t even mention the chosen one stuff. The numbered episodes are very much about the Skywalker family line without even considering prophecies and whatnot. Skywalkers play a pivotal role in every saga film even when one isn’t the main character. And the verdict is out on that one since Rey may end up being a Skywalker (which I’m ambivalent about).
ANH is definitely Luke's story, after that it opens up and Luke becomes less important the the world as a whole. His journey becomes more and more personal. Leia and Han are near/equal protagonist in ESB. By RotJ whether he won or lost the final confrontation the ultimate outcome for the galaxy would have been the same.
It is clearly the PT that had retcon this idea of OT being the Skywalker saga.
Wedge and Lando "Saved" there galaxy. In quote marks as it was a massive combine effort just like the first Death Star.
I also think the stance that "this director is actively being a troll to screw with fans and JJ Abrams" is kind of crazy. The inserting your own feelings on what a director's intentions are because they didn't take the story in a direction that you wanted in order to answer the questions you built up as important is crazy to me.
Like Steefo, I'm not trying to stir a pot and have kept relatively quiet in this thread that seems predominantly "Rian Johnston ruined Star Wars", but he elaborated on some points I feel are important to the alternative perspective, even if y'all are presumably getting what you want with ep. IX.
Rian's stated goal was to be as divisive as possible. He fully intended to piss off half the fans which he exceeded beyond all expectations. It's not crazy, it's fact. If that isn't trolling, I don't know what is.
As for JJ, yes and no. While Rian did throw everything JJ had under the bus with subversion JJ is also lying when he said there was a plan. Think about it, SW doesn't have a show runner, no one in charge of the bigger picture. It's all over the place.
JJ is just as guilty of destroying SW as Rian is just not via the same crimes. Then there is Kennedy who had either lost control, clueless or didn't care as long as ideology was satisfied. No one sane or cared would have released TLJ, absolutely no quality control.
As for the bits people liked about TLJ, it's incidental, the clock is right twice a day. Go watch a bad movie, a really bad movie. You will like something about it.
SW is already dead, past the event horizon. Episode 9 is 100% doomed. I can't think of any path it could take that isn't going to be a mockery of cinema. Look how the trailer has already lost you.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Adrock on April 15, 2019, 04:16:58 PM
ANH is definitely Luke's story, after that it opens up and Luke becomes less important the the world as a whole. His journey becomes more and more personal. Leia and Han are near/equal protagonist in ESB. By RotJ whether he won or lost the final confrontation the ultimate outcome for the galaxy would have been the same.
It is clearly the PT that had retcon this idea of OT being the Skywalker saga.
Seriously, bruh? Leia is a Skywalker. So is Vader. Three of the main players in the original trilogy are Skywalkers. WTF are you talking about?
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: nickmitch on April 15, 2019, 04:28:27 PM
Rian's stated goal was to be as divisive as possible. He fully intended to piss off half the fans which he exceeded beyond all expectations. It's not crazy, it's fact. If that isn't trolling, I don't know what is.
Where did he say this?
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: UncleBob on April 15, 2019, 07:34:07 PM
"I want to make this movie go in a different direction, take some risks, and maybe even make some of the diehard fans a little mad."
Closest thing I can find. From a random Reddit thread with no actual souce though.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: lolmonade on April 15, 2019, 07:53:54 PM
Which isn't a direct quote so much as a blogger taking his comments about the movie Brick and projecting that statement on his work with The Last Jedi. It'd be helpful if oohhboy provided a link to said statement since he's claimed it a few times. You'd think something like that would be pretty easy to drum up with a google search.
-------------------------------
I looked a bit further, and found an article where he explicitly stated it wasn't his intention to split the fanbase or piss them off.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: NWR_insanolord on April 15, 2019, 08:02:36 PM
Knowing how oohhboy operates, he probably just heard something that suits what he wants to believe and went with it.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: that Baby guy on April 15, 2019, 09:30:38 PM
I think the best way to tie things together for a sequel trilogy would have been for Rey to somehow be related to Obi Wan, like a granddaughter, who is then kept secret and hidden. Thematically, it turns the series from being about Skywalkers to being about Skywalkers and Kenobis. There's the issue of where his child comes from, but with cloning technology and a partially mysterious life on Tattoine looking over Luke, there are a few approaches. A lot of people believed The Force Awakens was leading toward an Obi-Wan connection, and like a few have stated, it's still possible, especially if Kylo Ren was lying.
Past that, I thought Snoke was intended to be Plagueis, as well. With Plagueis creating the Skywalker line, and the intention being that Anakin had the most force potential (and his offspring would likewise have the same potential,) the whole series could wrap around with the concept that Anakin was created to be possessed or taken over, however to do so, it requires him to first be robed into the dark side. His loss and injuries at the hands of Obi-Wan significantly reduced his potential, so nothing further happened. Until Luke arrives.
But Luke doesn't turn, so there goes that as an option. But there is more Skywalker blood. Kylo Ren happens. He's dark, he's angry, but he's not dark enough. There's still some good there. The Force Awaken plays out, and Snoke brings him to him. Why? Dark force possession or something similar. Still works with Rey as a Kenobi, who finally could redeem a Skywalker, etc., etc. I think it would round things in the PT.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ShyGuy on April 15, 2019, 09:59:20 PM
I'm not Oohboy, but he is probably referring to something like this:
https://youtu.be/8ixTU8cJb0g
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: nickmitch on April 15, 2019, 10:48:56 PM
I thought that was his goal with epVIII, not just with all his films. Honestly, it's not a bad approach for being a filmmaker in general. Although, I've only seen TLJ and Looper, and I don't remember Looper being "divisive". I remember people arguing over how JGL got the job in that movie, but not that it was terrible. So, he missed the mark there.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Stratos on April 15, 2019, 10:57:13 PM
Obi-wan did have an unrequited love interest in the Clone Wars in the form of the Mandelorian Queen, and even considered running away with her, but he stuck to his duty and she to hers, and she was slain by Darth Maul in an attempt to provoke Kenobi. While there could have been a surprise hidden love child that was hidden away without Kenobi's knowledge, it would have compromised his character and his role of foil to Anakin because Kenobi was the one who overcame the dark urges of revenge and passion.
What if it turned out Shimi had twins and gave one up for adoption (a girl) and kept Anakin. Obiwan could have interacted with the orphaned sister of Anakin, maybe he helps her find a new life and so she names her children after him or something.
Heck, we could even say Maz Kanata took in the sister to tie her into the series in a more meaningful and relevant way. So then she finds out this girl, who is the daughter/granddaughter of Anakin's sister, comes waltzing into her tavern with Han Solo and Maz, knowing a lot of back lore, would be able to put the pieces together and realize her potential.
Shimi had no reason to tell the Jedi about the second child. Especially if she game her up at birth. No reason to, as she was gone and bringing her up would just cause pain and regret for Shimi.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on April 16, 2019, 12:04:02 AM
^^ Bingo
While in itself isn't that smoking gun when you add TLJ as evidence and his twitter war, bit by bit you build up a case.
Hamill tried to warn us. If it was only a couple examples, sure you might brush it away. When you have 50+ that becomes a clear pattern.
ANH is definitely Luke's story, after that it opens up and Luke becomes less important the the world as a whole. His journey becomes more and more personal. Leia and Han are near/equal protagonist in ESB. By RotJ whether he won or lost the final confrontation the ultimate outcome for the galaxy would have been the same.
It is clearly the PT that had retcon this idea of OT being the Skywalker saga.
Seriously, bruh? Leia is a Skywalker. So is Vader. Three of the main players in the original trilogy are Skywalkers. WTF are you talking about?
Leia didn't know until RotJ. Vadar wasn't in on in till ESB. Luke gets less screen time and journey becomes personal. His impact on the overall rebellion is minimal by RotJ. That is not to say he isn't a protagonist over the OT, other character get promoted from support. By RotJ you had Han, Leia, Lando. It dilutes the idea of the Skywalker saga into something bigger than that to a wider galaxy full of all sort of characters.
PT shrank all that right down to being a Skywalker thing.
I thought that was his goal with epVIII, not just with all his films. Honestly, it's not a bad approach for being a filmmaker in general. Although, I've only seen TLJ and Looper, and I don't remember Looper being "divisive". I remember people arguing over how JGL got the job in that movie, but not that it was terrible. So, he missed the mark there.
His mindset is completely wrong for the situation. Doing whatever can be great for an independent film but when you have an pre-existing universe you cannot do that, there are rules you can't break, people you have to take care of, fixed points.
It's why Looper isn't divisive nor anything previous TLJ, there was nothing to divide.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: lolmonade on April 16, 2019, 08:28:27 AM
I'm not Oohboy, but he is probably referring to something like this:
https://youtu.be/8ixTU8cJb0g
I'm letting the whole "is The Last Jedi a good or bad movie" discussion go, because opinions are subjective and I actually enjoyed it which is on the different side of the fence of most here.
But that youtube video is lazy attempt at creating a narrative that he had some agenda to get Star Wars fans butthurt by stringing together a bunch of prior interviews for prior movies (most 8 years ago or more) where he isn't talking about a joy of antagonizing an audience, but rather what his filmmaking philosophy is, and why he likes working with genre films because he likes to use the ruleset in them to subvert expectations.
Where's a jerking-off emoji when you need one? :rolleyes:
I thought that was his goal with epVIII, not just with all his films. Honestly, it's not a bad approach for being a filmmaker in general. Although, I've only seen TLJ and Looper, and I don't remember Looper being "divisive". I remember people arguing over how JGL got the job in that movie, but not that it was terrible. So, he missed the mark there.
His mindset is completely wrong for the situation. Doing whatever can be great for an independent film but when you have an pre-existing universe you cannot do that, there are rules you can't break, people you have to take care of, fixed points.
It's why Looper isn't divisive nor anything previous TLJ, there was nothing to divide.
That's why I think saying that he's intentionally trying to be divisive on TLJ is the wrong takeaway from those quotes. He wants to make films that people are passionate about, and that's fine.
You also don't need an existing fanbase to split your audience. That's not why Looper wasn't divisive. Other movies have done so without a pre-existing universe.
And having "people you have to take care of" sounds kinda entitled.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Stratos on April 16, 2019, 03:00:32 PM
I took the "people you have to take care of" to mean characters in an established series, who should be treated a certain way because of how previous entries established them to be. Akbar and Lando arguably were not "taken care of" because they unceremoniously killed off Akbar where there was a role he could have easily filled for a much greater impact, and fans have been asking about Lando since the new trilogy kicked off, which seems like a huge missed opportunity to me.
Though it does sound a bit entitled in reference to fans, you do want to keep your fans at least somewhat happy/placated. Fans are the primary supporters of a product and if they aren't happy, they'll leave to something else.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ThePerm on April 16, 2019, 03:51:53 PM
As far as I'm concerned I don't give a **** about anything that happens in the Clone Wars tv show. It's peripheral cartoon that should never be considered canon. I shouldn't have to dredge through it to know what's going on in the movies. It should merely be ancillary in nature.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: nickmitch on April 16, 2019, 04:00:56 PM
I took the "people you have to take care of" to mean characters in an established series, who should be treated a certain way because of how previous entries established them to be. Akbar and Lando arguably were not "taken care of" because they unceremoniously killed off Akbar where there was a role he could have easily filled for a much greater impact, and fans have been asking about Lando since the new trilogy kicked off, which seems like a huge missed opportunity to me.
Though it does sound a bit entitled in reference to fans, you do want to keep your fans at least somewhat happy/placated. Fans are the primary supporters of a product and if they aren't happy, they'll leave to something else.
It's a forum post, so if he meant "characters" when he said "people" then that's a point I'll concede. I'd rather stories either pick up so far in the future that old characters are dead, or happen so remotely that it makes sense for them not to be there. I do miss Lando and am glad he seems to be making an appearance in IX. VII made me think "where's Lando?" more than VIII though.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: pokepal148 on April 16, 2019, 06:50:27 PM
As far as I'm concerned I don't give a **** about anything that happens in the Clone Wars tv show. It's peripheral cartoon that should never be considered canon. I shouldn't have to dredge through it to know what's going on in the movies. It should merely be ancillary in nature.
It's last 3 seasons are also some of the best star wars content we've ever had, same with most of Rebels.
There have been two major cases of the Animated stuff starting to creep into the movies that I can think of, the first one was Saw Garrera being in Rogue One, which I felt was handled well. Even if you didn't see TCW they give you every piece of information you need on him to understand his role in the story. The second one was Maul's appearance in Solo which was handled remarkably poorly, to the point where even if you're familiar with every piece of Canon that he appears in you still have no context as to how he got back into the criminal underworld game considering the Son of Dathomir comic line showed the criminal empire he established for himself in TCW completely falling apart and that's canon.
Oh, and there's that whole random background character in ROTJ was actually Captain Rex from TCW/Rebels thing but that honestly feels more like some sort of weird unintentional coincidence thingy where the fanbase noticed that Rex's design in rebels looks very similar to this random background character who was part of the Endor strike team and Filoni/Lucasfilm decided to roll with it than anything.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Stratos on April 16, 2019, 07:06:41 PM
Yeah, the Rex thing was purely coincidence as that guy, like every other thing living or not, has a fleshed out backstory in the old canon. Since everything was reset and fans pointed it out they went with it and declared him to be Old Man Rex on Endor. Its a nice nod to the past and works for me.
And if you won't watch Clone Wars you are missing out Perm. There are some great lists of highlight story arcs you could go through without having to trudge through the whole series, though if you like Star Wars I recommend watching it all in chronological order. It reshaped my impression of the prequel trilogy and gave us a lot of the things that the films were missing.
Now if only we could get Ahsoka in the live films somehow.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ThePerm on April 16, 2019, 08:00:17 PM
I don't really think a film series can operate well in the modern era with continuity with a tv series. If Star Wars had started out as a TV series then that would be different.
I also hate the art style. I never liked it. It's offputing. Some styles put you off of shows. It looks like if you got a bunch of Egyptian New Kingdom statues and marionetted them around. It hits my uncanny valley reflex hard.
I never had much of a problem with the prequel trilogy. I understand the criticism being someone who watches films all the time, but when they came out I enjoyed them for what they were. I wasn't sweeped up in the negativity. Sometimes negativity towards things is misplaced. Like Batman 66' there was a time when I watched an episode and was like "WTF were they thinking. How did I like this as a kid?" But once you know it is an elaborate spoof that criticism is stupid. It is actually great. You were right the first time.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on April 17, 2019, 12:23:11 AM
It is all about context, nothing exist in isolation. People all too easily look only at the moment and ignore the context. With Batman 66 you misunderstood the context. You later on saw it in the context and time period it was meant to be viewed under.
As for the line "People to take care of", it's both the characters some who become role models and the audience, you know the customers. Customers who have been with you for decades, who have gone out and kept the fire burning.
The displeasure towards the prequels exist because they are bad movies following OT which is loved by millions. Star Wars was something parents would show their kids and share the joy. SW became an cultural institution. When the prequels didn't hit the mark it is rightly criticised. You might question the extent but when that valid constructive criticism gets dismissed and thrown back at you that changes everything. This allowed NuSW to do what PT didn't, kill SW. GL might have a lazy idiot but he is a (mostly)good business man, He took the hits, give small friendly ribbing in the right context, didn't insult the fans outside of the movie.
Nintendo is the same, we have supported it thick and thin because they kept making games we liked at a high standard of quality. That isn't entitlement, it's good business. We have criticised Nintendo in the past but they have never thrown it back into our face, they didn't engage in twitter wars, openly insult people. The relationship has remained cordial. We got the likes of Kaplan, 'My body is ready' Reggie, Nintendo direct, Nintendo Power, this very site. We like the SW fans have recommended games, played them with our loved ones. While maybe not the level of passion that SW has, it's the same thing.
Marvel is nearing 2 decades now? There are kids who have grown up with this and no doubt enthused fans. There are forum threads dedicated to Marvel movies and users that without fail post new material, trailers etc. Now imagine TLJ scenario happening to Endgame. How many of you would stop watching new Marvel movies or buying their products or stop posting marketing materials or become indifferent or get angry?
You got the smallest taste of that when they fired Gunn. The fan outcry of support for Gunn, the actors revolting. The first cracks. You started asking questions, wondering what is going on. Don't go thinking you're immune to the emotions(Our robot friends excluded) or believe yourself superior to those who criticise what is going on.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ThePerm on April 17, 2019, 12:38:36 AM
Marvel is a weird bag. Especially the Avengers series. Can you think of a series where the third one is totally awesome? Age of Ultron was content packed, but I didn't like it as much as the first. Part 3 satisfied a dark sick spot. I love it when the villains win. Ever since Lord Zedd destroyed the mega zords and wrecked the command center I've been real up for the idea of a villain win.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on April 17, 2019, 12:44:42 AM
Die Hard 3. Definitely better than 2 but not 1 so ehh? Star Trek 6: Undiscovered country, 2 edges it out but eh?
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ThePerm on April 17, 2019, 12:57:21 AM
Die Hard with a Vengeance for sure.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on April 17, 2019, 01:35:16 AM
Zeus and John was truly a perfect pairing of oil and water with an emulsifier added at just the right time. You could not make that movie today as some people don't give a damn about context.
Great follow up jokes later.
Also add bombing NYC.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ThePerm on April 17, 2019, 02:14:37 AM
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on April 17, 2019, 02:38:29 AM
I didn't know why I didn't post that days ago. Must have had a stroke laughing too much.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: pokepal148 on April 17, 2019, 02:59:46 AM
I also hate the art style. I never liked it. It's offputing. Some styles put you off of shows. It looks like if you got a bunch of Egyptian New Kingdom statues and marionetted them around. It hits my uncanny valley reflex hard.
It's funny that you mention the artstyle actually. Two of my favorite TCW story arcs (the later seasons started doing 4 episode long story arcs that basically form their own movies when binged) are "The Bad Batch" and "Crystal Crisis" arcs. The Bad Batch is an absolute treat although it basically requires you to watch a bunch of the other clone focused episodes to get the full experience out of. It's incredibly dark and the reveal that Echo survived the Citadel arc and what ended up happening to him is incredibly haunting. The Bad Batch themselves are also a fun group of characters
Crystal Crisis is just a fun romp with absolutely incredible banter between Obi-Wan and Anakin but it also has a direct tie in with A New Hope with the giant lightsaber crystal that the episode focuses on being strongly implied to be capable of being used to help power something like a Death Star Superlaser. I strongly recommend it. All you need to know is that Ahsoka decided to leave the Jedi order at the end of season 5 and as I'm sure you can imagine Anakin is taking it really well.
Both of these arcs were released as unfinished story reels (although Bad Batch is being finished for the Disney+ season 7 revival thingy.) They're fully voiced but the animation is incomplete, there are still placeholder models in some of the scenes, it's kind of a mess in terms of visuals, I mean look at this:
for BNM (https://youtu.be/6UwklEWJvmg)
TCW's artstyle is kind of offputting for me in the early seasons because the animation just feels kind of sloppy between the early seasons being kind of rushed and the fact that the team didn't have the resources to fully realize the style they were going for but once George Lucas started throwing his own money into the project the animation becomes absolutely spectacular.
Rebels was always kind of "just there" for me in terms of animation. It has a style, it works, but while it has it's moments I never felt like it was as impressive as TCW was and a fair amount of that is that Disney unsurprisingly decided to have them work with a budget smaller than George Lucas's bank account.
To give context on my opinion of the prequel trilogy: Hayden Christenson is generally an absolute trainwreck as Anakin (although most of that is the writing and direction he got) and Jar Jar was a bit annoying in TPM although honestly it's more offputting for me to see him basically be reduced to a background character in ROTS because of the backlash he got than anything. Otherwise they're perfectly fine. I honestly prefer episodes 1 and 3 over The Force Awakens personally.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Spak-Spang on April 17, 2019, 06:48:23 AM
The first seasons of the Clone Wars were not very good so I gave up on the series. I heard everyone saying that it got better and better...and I can definitely tell that the later seasons have much better animation and art design.
Rebels is almost all bad. The first seasons tonally were awful, and then the second half when it was getting interesting story wise they ended up dealing with some of the more interesting drama with no gravitas. The additions they added to the show didn't feel like it fit in Star Wars universe but a cartoon, which is fine for a cartoon, but this is supposedly canonized stuff. Light Speed Running Wolves? Darth Maul and other Sith using light sabers to FLY!!! It was all just stupid. Yes, there were some really interesting and great moments in there, but not enough.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: nickmitch on April 17, 2019, 10:00:15 AM
Jar Jar is that annoying sidekick character that's in every kids movie nowadays. I think the biggest issue is that he might've been ahead of his time. The Lemurs from Madagascar got their own show, the Minions from Despicable Me got their own movie, these are all the same character. Jar Jar as a thing missed the mark completely and was too much in the foreground to be likeable.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on April 17, 2019, 11:30:03 AM
He wasn't some sort of sidekick innovation. Sure it had cutting edge fidelity, motion capture, but that has nothing to do with why he failed.
Jar Jar was poorly designed visually flopping everywhere, that voice, too incompetent and his behaviour were far, far too clown like while not remotely funny. Constantly undermining the SW atmosphere. He was someone no one wanted to spend time with including other characters which reinforce the audience's rightly poor perception of him.
Supporting characters in movies always have something endearing about them, a redeeming quality, maybe witty dialogue, some level of usefulness to the characters that isn't accidental if we are meant to like them.
A great example is Mike The TV in Reboot. Everybody hates him in show but we like him because his shtick is funny, their complaints is part of the joke. He is animated very lively, full of expression. He has agency, not everything about him is serendipity.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: nickmitch on April 17, 2019, 12:53:18 PM
I wouldn't call him an innovation, but he is definitely a trope which to me has been gaining more prominence in tv/film.
But Jar Jar didn't work for all those reasons you said: he lacks utility, has an annoying voice, and just isn't funny. I'd add that he also lacks the "cuteness" that those types of characters tend to have. You can see what Lucas was going for with the character, but he flat out fails at every aspect. He also has zero appeal to an adult audience. Good cartoons, especially ones designed for children, are created in such a way that they can amuse an adult while entertaining a child. Jar Jar is the movie equivalent of someone jingling a set of keys over your head. That might work for some audiences, but everyone else is just gonna be annoyed.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: pokepal148 on April 17, 2019, 03:19:56 PM
I'm just going to leave this here:
for BNM (https://youtu.be/IV1Q2cA4xM8)
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Spak-Spang on April 17, 2019, 06:03:36 PM
I will just say Jar Jar reminded me of C3PO from the original series. He was supposed to be comic relief and help a movie series about War to have some lighthearted moments. However, where C3PO was annoying but lovable, because we all know a pessamist like that. Jar Jar is completely unrelatable. Mix that in with the possible racist like tones on display not from Jar Jar, but from the themes of the story on the planet. Finally, Jar Jar ends up even ruining one of the most potentially epic scenes in the entire Star Wars franchise with the Gungan's being outclassed in battle someone figuring out a way to defeat the robot armies, by making it a slapstick comedy event.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: nickmitch on April 17, 2019, 06:28:10 PM
It also helps that C3PO was playing the straight man to R2D2.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: pokepal148 on April 17, 2019, 08:25:56 PM
When Lucas made the Clone Wars team do a Jar Jar focused episode they often tried to pair him up with some serious character (which ironically included C3PO at some point) to basically serve as the straight man for him which helps but I feel like the only time they actually struck gold with Jar Jar was when they paired him up with the other super unlikable prequel character, Mace Windu. The two operate on such opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of Mace being super serious and no nonsense while Jar Jar is... Jar Jar that just seeing them together on screen is kind of amusing in and of itself.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ThePerm on April 17, 2019, 09:05:56 PM
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on April 25, 2019, 02:49:03 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/UesOOJK.jpg)
HAHHHAAAAHA
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: BeautifulShy on August 27, 2019, 07:49:40 PM
I'm surprised this hasn't been posted yet. New trailer for The Rise of Skywalker.
For BnM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n1T3HxHd7Y
I liked the intro showing all the main moments throughout the whole series and then when the actual new footage came in I was amazed at some points and shocked with others like near the end with Rey.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on August 28, 2019, 03:20:29 AM
Nahhhh. Pretty embarrassing to think this is professional work. The opening is like a funeral montage. Remember thisss??! Well we murdered them all and shovelled dirt into the grave. CONSUME.
I am dead. (https://i.imgur.com/3c8uNCz.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: nickmitch on August 29, 2019, 05:39:19 PM
I actually liked the footage. I thought it looked good and the ending was pretty surprising.
I see people posting the .gif oohhboy posted and it's either with a playful tone of "Lol, it's like a swiss army knife!" or a more angry "How dare they make a lightsaber that folds!!!". Either way I think it makes sense she'd shift from a typical sword to something closer to the staff she had as her primary weapon her whole life.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on August 29, 2019, 06:11:27 PM
Folding light sabre is dumb af, bordering on satire like robot Chicken. Like Kylo's sabre it's try hard. Just duel wield and have them join up on the end or have a breakable staff. Folding it has no utility. Great if you what some Kung Fu action grip on a toy.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: nickmitch on August 29, 2019, 06:18:56 PM
Probably makes it easier to hang off the hip.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Spak-Spang on August 29, 2019, 08:56:51 PM
Kylo's sabre Cross makes sense if you can show how it can used offensively and defensively. Thinking you blocked an attack only to have Kylo twist his wrist and stab slice you would be cool. Sliding down the saber to the light saber hilt would also help sell it.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Adrock on August 29, 2019, 09:35:57 PM
I like Kylo Ren’s lightsaber. Its overall jankiness says a lot about his character. Kylo Ren is inexperienced, and the unstable red “blade” is a nice visual cue of his indecision to completely align with the Dark Side.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on August 30, 2019, 12:14:44 AM
Neither movie showed he was inexperienced, a bitch man baby of a punching bag for sure. It's like the writer thinks the only thing about the dark side is anger. Kylo's existence is to get owned.
He isn't conflicted about the dark side. He doesn't know what he wants or what he is doing, he has zero ideology neither does the first order with the goal of taking over the galaxy just because. He has no goal other than be angry. Killing the past is nonsense. He kills Snoke and goes right back to kill the resistance. Even then he hands off the responsibility to Hux as usual while shouting random orders.
I wouldn't read much into his sabre, personal preference is the simple answer. In the writer room they thought it looked cool. It's like commenting on the deep meaning that Luke's light sabre is green. It's green because it can't be red as red would make it harder to follow the action.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: pokepal148 on August 30, 2019, 12:30:39 AM
J.J. just refuses to accept that no matter what he'll never top Dave Filoni and his helicopter lightsabers.
for BnM (https://youtu.be/5sOvNYYH6Cs)
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Adrock on August 30, 2019, 08:35:57 AM
He isn't conflicted about the dark side. He doesn't know what he wants
That’s... what conflicted means.
No. When I say he doesn't know what he wants I mean that in the literal sense. He isn't arguing with himself or judging the pro and cons, nor he torn between moral choices. it's like he is at the super market and can't figure out if he wants to buy food so he stares at the ceiling because someone told him to.
J.J. just refuses to accept that no matter what he'll never top Dave Filoni and his helicopter lightsabers.
for BnM (https://youtu.be/5sOvNYYH6Cs)
When I first saw it years ago I laughed so hard. It's so out there and stupid it looped around to being sort of good.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Stratos on August 30, 2019, 12:52:37 PM
There were already folding lightsabers in Star Wars. They Jedi Temple Guards had double bladed hilts and folded. Jedi Master Pong Krell, a four-armed alien who fought in the clone wars, wielded two of them to great effect.
Coupled with lightsaber tonfas, lightsaber whips, and the helicopter blades mentioned above, Rey's fakeout-darkside-vision lightsaber is hardly an offender.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: UncleBob on August 30, 2019, 03:31:44 PM
Yeah, but there's a huge difference between Rey's thing and all those examples.
Disney did this and Disney is teh evils.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on August 30, 2019, 07:45:44 PM
You point them out like it's some kind of own nobody has considered before. The light sabre is just another symptom of how rotten the whole thing has gotten. The entirely of NuSW has been varying temperature of hot garbage that has collectively made PT look good.
The only good Star Wars going right now is Doc Vadar Force Fridays.
You point them out like it's some kind of own nobody has considered before.
I point them out to indicate that if one's criteria for judging Star Wars is "mainline films should be not stupid", then it seems like they haven't really moved past the second in the series. Being generous.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: pokepal148 on August 31, 2019, 03:28:01 AM
More like they haven't gotten past Aunt Beru telling Luke to get some blue milk.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on August 31, 2019, 03:40:35 AM
You point them out like it's some kind of own nobody has considered before.
I point them out to indicate that if one's criteria for judging Star Wars is "mainline films should be not stupid", then it seems like they haven't really moved past the second in the series. Being generous.
I did not say this. Do not put words into my mouth.
"What about this bad thing?" does not excuse bad things they are doing now. If you are going to use the "What about" argument it makes current mistakes even more damning as it shows they have learnt nothing, constantly making unforced errors.
If these things didn't have the name Star Wars you never would have watched them. They would have crashed and burned just as hard as the DCU. Laughed off as another misguided, failed attempt to make another "Universe". It's skating on blind brand loyalty and obligation now. They made really bad movies, they did this to themselves.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: UncleBob on August 31, 2019, 04:08:33 AM
The problem with your argument is that I didn't even watch the original trilogy until I was in high school - and I thought they were cheesy sci-fi pop corn movies even then. I never felt obligation to the brand. Hell, Rogue One was the first movie I would say is worth watching for casual audiences and the only one I consider above the "meh-okay" range.
You seem to want these movies to be something they're not, while pretending the OT was something it never was.
You accuse me of only caring about the movies because of the name - but let's be honest, at this point, that's the only reason you're still in the conversation. You hang on to every new announcement, trainer, and rumor just for a chance to pick apart something new (or, hell, old) for a franchise you seem to indicate you've long since lost interestin - for no other reason than the name at the front of the movie.
I watch the movies, because as stupid popcorn flicks as they are, I do enjoy just watching explosions in space, a sassy robits, and pew pew pew once in a while.
Why *are* you still watching them?
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: pokepal148 on August 31, 2019, 04:34:13 AM
I don't like Hazelnut ice cream. Therefore Hazelnut ice cream is an abomination that must be wiped from the Earth. The only reason people like hazelnut ice cream is because ice cream is in the name. It's skating on blind brand loyalty and obligation now. They made really bad ice cream, they did this to themselves.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: NWR_insanolord on August 31, 2019, 04:49:31 AM
I love that oohhboy's argument against modern Star Wars is exactly the same as his argument against modern Star Trek, and in both cases I really have no idea how he became a fan in the first place if he's that much of a stickler. I'm starting to think he never liked either of those things, and he just likes to be negative and **** on people for liking things he doesn't.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on August 31, 2019, 05:05:47 AM
I don't watch them anymore, I haven't seen Solo or any of the new shows, saw TFA and TLJ well after the fact. Its such a train wreak I can't look away, the BS surrounding it is too entertaining. Ripping on it is too much fun. TRoS is probably going to end up being a Solo, forever sitting on the hard drive, never to be watched except for maybe a riff track.
Your claim that I want NuSW to be something it's not is true, just not the reason you gave. I wanted good movies. What we got is endless trash. They don't even rise to "Popcorn" level which is such a cop out excuse for mediocrity and bad. Have some standards, stop consuming slop, demand better.
The thing is the last 3rd of R1 because that actually felt SW. Not because it had classic X-Wings and Star Destroyers. It had that old school feel with the camera work, texture of the spacecraft, how they swoop like the WW2 dog fighting they were based on, the ground combat didn't feel like a joke, basic film making skills applied, able to see what's happening, it could stand on it's own merits. For a moment someone understood what SW is, they understood how to make a fucking movie, they made something good.
R1 showed it isn't an impossible feat, it can be done. But everything they have done so far screams they don't give a **** about making good movies, just throw **** out there because people like Unclebob will eat it. They will blame their failure on everything and anyone than themselves like they have before.
Seriously watch this, it's bloody amazing, LOL and shitload more SW than anything Disney have put out:
I love that oohhboy's argument against modern Star Wars is exactly the same as his argument against modern Star Trek, and in both cases I really have no idea how he became a fan in the first place if he's that much of a stickler. I'm starting to think he never liked either of those things, and he just likes to be negative and **** on people for liking things he doesn't.
The beef with current Star Wars and Star Trek isn't some mystery. They made extremely bad shows on every level, subjectivity need not apply. Being a fan of the past shows just makes the new "stuff" worse. Seriously what is there not to get?
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: NWR_insanolord on August 31, 2019, 05:14:56 AM
The fact that you think a show or movie can be bad on every level with no subjectivity says a lot more about you than it does about the shows and movies.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on August 31, 2019, 05:28:22 AM
When something is that bad, broken on a basic level you don't need to bring subjectivity into it. Even if the past shows didn't exist, they are still bad. It's excuses all the way down.
It's like the last season of GoT but all the time. Are you going to blame all those viewers? Are you going to make the claim of how did they ever became fans in the first place? Say they only want to hate? I didn't watch GoT because it was not my thing, but I could see the quality in it, why they liked it, why they were so disgusted by the ending. How bad it was inside and outside the show.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: NWR_insanolord on August 31, 2019, 05:33:52 AM
Yep, that's what I'm talking about. You think it's bad, and in your mind that means it's broken on a basic level that no one can deny. Are you four years old?
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: pokepal148 on August 31, 2019, 05:38:14 AM
You guys just don't understand how fundamentally broken hazelnut ice cream is. When it's that bad you don't need to bring subjectivity into it. It's excuses all the way down.
Yep, that's what I'm talking about. You think it's bad, and in your mind that means it's broken on a basic level that no one can deny. Are you four years old?
What is wrong with you? Why do you insist on openly insulting people?
If these were games you would fall out of a level, the animations would glitch, hit detection broke all repeatedly, screen randomly go blank, crashes. Basic stuff that shouldn't be broken.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: NWR_insanolord on August 31, 2019, 05:42:35 AM
Yeah, why do I openly insult people when I could be subtly insulting people like you do up and down these forums?
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: pokepal148 on August 31, 2019, 05:45:14 AM
I really don't think oohboy has seen an actual bad movie if he's basically comparing the new Star Wars to Sonic 06.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on August 31, 2019, 05:49:36 AM
I really don't think oohboy has seen an actual bad movie if he's basically comparing the new Star Wars to Sonic 06.
LOL, nice.
I have seen my share of bad movies for shits and giggles. I usually able to find something to enjoy about the movie itself. But I am not going to mistake that moment of enjoyment to claim it's a good movie or something people should accept because it has XYZ name on it.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: pokepal148 on August 31, 2019, 05:52:53 AM
Everybody knows that Birdemic is the Sonic 06 of movies.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: nickmitch on August 31, 2019, 10:28:12 AM
The only way a movie could be bad in the way oohhboy is describing is if the film were exposed, the vocals and the visuals were out of sync, and most of the movie was slightly out of frame. Or maybe even each scene is one take and then the next scene is filmed right after with no editing.
Nitpicking the details of the film might make it a bad story, but that's only one part of the movie.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: UncleBob on August 31, 2019, 11:51:27 AM
The only way a movie could be bad in the way oohhboy is describing is if the film were exposed, the vocals and the visuals were out of sync, and most of the movie was slightly out of frame. Or maybe even each scene is one take and then the next scene is filmed right after with no editing.
Nitpicking the details of the film might make it a bad story, but that's only one part of the movie.
It is an intentional exaggeration. I used it to unambiguously get cross the idea given I was insulted because they misunderstood intentionally or otherwise.
Yeah, frames are in-sync with audio. There is a picture when they don't go hardcore with the dark theme or shake the camera to hide issues or is a poorly lit as Solo. it physically gets from beginning to end. The script which is the equivalent to gameplay, level design and physics is a mess which for a movie leads to the game equivalent issues.
The actors can't be convincing, dialogue is bad, characters are falling out of the story. You have scenes and sequences, entire chunk of it that is something else entirely or disconnected internally, inconsistent or missing. Interactions don't make sense. People are teleporting.
A Mario game isn't a Mario game because it has Mario. It's the physics and level design, the camera moment, how tight and well thought out it is. If that quality, the essence isn't there it's not a Mario game no matter how you dress it up or rendering technology involved.
Its such a train wreak I can't look away, the BS surrounding it is too entertaining. Ripping on it is too much fun.
You need a new hobby man. Maybe if you surrounded yourself with things you enjoy rather than things you hate, you'd be less bitter and more happy?
Check out Dr Phil here.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: NWR_insanolord on August 31, 2019, 08:28:51 PM
But whether something captures the essence of a franchise is definitely subjective, it's not anywhere near as black and white as you're claiming. That means different things to different people.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: broodwars on August 31, 2019, 08:40:13 PM
I've said my piece about Disney's poor handling of their acquired properties sufficiently elsewhere. I didn't like Force Awakens, so I haven't even bothered with the other Disney Star Wars movie stuff. Yeah, I like Rebels, but that show has a ton of problems and it never did figure out what it wanted to be, so it just endlessly circled around the same 3 storylines. I still haven't bothered finishing the show's final season because it all got so tedious.
That reminds me: I really need to break out my Clone Wars BluRays again some time and try to get past that godawful, convoluted 3rd season in actipation of the new Season 7.
What I do find funny about the marketing of Rise of Skywalker is Disney now claiming that all this nonsense was actually planned after Rian Johnson openly stated that he pretty much threw out everything Abrams had started. Yeah, there are people that actually like Disney Star Wars, and whatever I think of them I think it's rather brazen of Disney to treat THEM like idiots.
I feel like that's one thing that fans of both old Lucas Star Wars and new Disney Star Wars should be able to agree on: the planning and execution of these new movies has been somewhat less than desirable. That they've been successful anyway speaks to a number of things, but I don't think "consistency" can be called one of them.
Meanwhile, the Star Wars toy sales are apparently in the gutter, Galaxy's Edge is pretty much a confirmed flop, and Disney still won't hand the video game license to a company that actually knows what it's doing. Whatever the quality of Rise of Skywalker ends up being, I'm not sure the brand can still be considered "healthy".
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: UncleBob on August 31, 2019, 10:14:49 PM
But whether something captures the essence of a franchise is definitely subjective, it's not anywhere near as black and white as you're claiming. That means different things to different people.
If it was really that subjective you couldn't have spiritual successors, remakes, translations, mash ups, satire, adaptations and reboots that replicate that essence and even improve on it (Orville). Even sequels have to follow what came before, you can't just make whatever and call it a sequel(TLJ). You have understand intimately the core and make it fresh (John Wick).
When it fails you get "This is XYZ in name only", "WTF is this?". It doesn't have legitimacy from the audience. You can call it XYZ all you want, claim the legal rights to the IP, but it doesn't matter if no one watches, are busy mocking you or don't believe in what you are saying.
Its such a train wreak I can't look away, the BS surrounding it is too entertaining. Ripping on it is too much fun.
You need a new hobby man. Maybe if you surrounded yourself with things you enjoy rather than things you hate, you'd be less bitter and more happy?
Check out Dr Phil here.
I assume you mean this as a complement, because I canxt imagine you'd ever openly insult somone on the forums.
No, not a complement at all, depending on context/reading an insult. Mostly an observation, an amusing dismissive disposable quip.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: pokepal148 on September 01, 2019, 12:42:53 AM
To be clear the way Disney has handled the sequel trilogy has made Nintendo's online strategy seem coherent and well thought out. But that doesn't mean that the movies contained within can't be good.
Also I deeply disagree with any assertion that TLJ was made without any regard for what came before it.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on September 01, 2019, 12:50:21 AM
I think everyone can agree there has been 1/3 of a good movie so far.
I can agree with the second statement because it objects to an absolute impossible statement. TFA and TLJ has Luuuuke in hobo robes so that carried over.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on September 01, 2019, 12:50:48 AM
Double post
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: NWR_insanolord on September 01, 2019, 01:02:29 AM
But whether something captures the essence of a franchise is definitely subjective, it's not anywhere near as black and white as you're claiming. That means different things to different people.
If it was really that subjective you couldn't have spiritual successors, remakes, translations, mash ups, satire, adaptations and reboots that replicate that essence and even improve on it (Orville).
There's usually a lot of overlap between people's perceptions, which allows for things like that, but not everyone appreciates those works that are derived from the original because of the differences in how they perceived it. You've made it clear that you think The Orville captures the essence of Star Trek and even improves upon it, but that is far from a universal sentiment, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: broodwars on September 01, 2019, 01:15:20 AM
But whether something captures the essence of a franchise is definitely subjective, it's not anywhere near as black and white as you're claiming. That means different things to different people.
If it was really that subjective you couldn't have spiritual successors, remakes, translations, mash ups, satire, adaptations and reboots that replicate that essence and even improve on it (Orville).
There's usually a lot of overlap between people's perceptions, which allows for things like that, but not everyone appreciates those works that are derived from the original because of the differences in how they perceived it. You've made it clear that you think The Orville captures the essence of Star Trek and even improves upon it, but that is far from a universal sentiment, and there's nothing wrong with that.
For instance, I find The Orville to be so sophomoric that its stupidity outweighs every good piece of science fiction storytelling it does. The whole show's a tonal whiplash that never coalesces into a coherent, thoughtful whole worthy of being a Star Trek spiritual successor. ;)
It also looks like it was entirely shot in the world's most sterile and boring Ikea Warehouse.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: pokepal148 on September 01, 2019, 01:27:50 AM
What I do find funny about the marketing of Rise of Skywalker is Disney now claiming that all this nonsense was actually planned after Rian Johnson openly stated that he pretty much threw out everything Abrams had started.
Actually Daisy Ridley was the one who made that claim. Still the whole relay race trilogy planning thing we've seen described in interviews and the like sounds like an absolute trainwreck.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ThePerm on September 01, 2019, 02:53:44 AM
Los Dos
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on September 01, 2019, 04:00:32 AM
There's usually a lot of overlap between people's perceptions, which allows for things like that, but not everyone appreciates those works that are derived from the original because of the differences in how they perceived it. You've made it clear that you think The Orville captures the essence of Star Trek and even improves upon it, but that is far from a universal sentiment, and there's nothing wrong with that.
For instance, I find The Orville to be so sophomoric that its stupidity outweighs every good piece of science fiction storytelling it does. The whole show's a tonal whiplash that never coalesces into a coherent, thoughtful whole worthy of being a Star Trek spiritual successor. ;)
It also looks like it was entirely shot in the world's most sterile and boring Ikea Warehouse.
The thing about the Orville is that it doesn't want to replicate TNG with a new paint job which is something I don't think anybody really wants. Enterprise is the example of how dry that well is. I am 100% that Seth could have made straight up TNG and he has the crew to do it and did talk to CBS. To freshen it up, to set it apart, give it the heart that TNG didn't have due to the stiffness of the characters was to make them more real, have them make jokes, flaws, aspirations, regret, grow as people from the get go. It deals with complex social issues in a mature manner without blasting your face and isn't afraid to say "I don't know". TNG never in a 1000 years would have aliens instantly get addicted to cigarettes to show addiction(Disc in funnels anyone?). Seth wrote a love letter to Trek.
As I said before part of it isn't just capping that essence, but making it fresh too. When you are making a direct sequel you can't go off the reservation, "Jump the shark" like NuSW. With Marvel, each movie has very different heroes, directors, actors but they all have the some core. Each can be different within certain limits, some technical, some more ethereal. Some of them were bad, but people forgave them partly because it was still Iron man not Tin man.
Every John Wick is different enough so not to rehash the last, be new and stay true. Good parodies have that same core. Galaxy Quest is 'Trek', but a comedy, a translation. If it was just a comedy on a space ship it wouldn't be a parody. Spaceballs lovingly mocks SW beyond just having an oversize Vadar helmet. Same with Doc Vadar. The core is that important.
Given the choice between sets well lit enough to see it's Ikea and a slum lord apartment that hasn't paid the power bill to hide the roaches as atmospheric as that maybe, it I am going to take Ikea every time. Hollywood has serious lighting problems like they are rationing photons in the last stage of heat death. If the Orville was real no way in hell it would be lit like a cave as Discovery is. Hell, I would take ST 2009's lens flares over STD.
****, the new leaks are too damn funny. Looks like JJ finally said something that was true and finish what he started when he said "**** it".
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: broodwars on September 01, 2019, 10:07:41 AM
The thing about the Orville is that it doesn't want to replicate TNG with a new paint job which is something I don't think anybody really wants. Enterprise is the example of how dry that well is. I am 100% that Seth could have made straight up TNG and he has the crew to do it and did talk to CBS. To freshen it up, to set it apart, give it the heart that TNG didn't have due to the stiffness of the characters was to make them more real, have them make jokes, flaws, aspirations, regret, grow as people from the get go. It deals with complex social issues in a mature manner without blasting your face and isn't afraid to say "I don't know". TNG never in a 1000 years would have aliens instantly get addicted to cigarettes to show addiction(Disc in funnels anyone?). Seth wrote a love letter to Trek. ...
Every John Wick is different enough so not to rehash the last, be new and stay true. Good parodies have that same core. Galaxy Quest is 'Trek', but a comedy, a translation. If it was just a comedy on a space ship it wouldn't be a parody. Spaceballs lovingly mocks SW beyond just having an oversize Vadar helmet. Same with Doc Vadar. The core is that important.
I don't want to derail this thread any further with Orville talk, but it's funny that you decided to bring up Galaxy Quest & Spaceballs. You know what those shows have that The Orville doesn't? Clever writing, satire, and consistency. They are what they are, and they embrace it.
Mel Brooks said on the commentary track for Spaceballs that the key to a good satire is that the story itself has to be good first before you lay on the parody. Spaceballs is a comedy from beginning to end, and for its day quite a clever one (along with some crass humor). It just tells a fun adventure story from beginning to end, skewering silly things about Star Wars, science fiction, and marketing along the way. There's a consistent tone throughout. Galaxy Quest, likewise, has a strong adventure foundation. It starts as a loving parody of how silly the original Star Trek is, and then slowly shifts into a celebration of what that show was before ending on a celebration of the Star Trek fan culture that kept that show alive.
The Orville, on the other hand, doesn't know what it wants to be. 1/2 to 3/4 of the show is comedy so bad that I can't bring myself to care about the characters. Then every once in a while it tries to be serious, but because I was already turned off by the dick jokes, etc. they did with those characters earlier, I don't CARE when the actual pathos happens. It comes off as the writer both being stoned and having ADHD:
"Dicks, though, am I right, brah! But what if...what if that one race we know nothing about...started a war, man! That would be bad, brah! But Dick jokes, right?!"
The Orville is so busy jumping between things that worked for other shows that, IMO, it never establishes a desirable identity of its own. And I know a lighter-style sci-fi show with serious drama CAN work because Farscape and the StarGate franchise pulled it off. They just had better writers. The Orville wants to do smart science fiction without actually being smart. It wants deep pathos without actually earning it.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: UncleBob on September 01, 2019, 12:59:08 PM
>You know what those shows have that The Orville doesn't?
A two-hour run time to fill, instead of multiple hours of episodes?
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on September 01, 2019, 06:10:51 PM
I don't want to derail this thread any further with Orville talk, but it's funny that you decided to bring up Galaxy Quest & Spaceballs. You know what those shows have that The Orville doesn't? Clever writing, satire, and consistency. They are what they are, and they embrace it.
Mel Brooks said on the commentary track for Spaceballs that the key to a good satire is that the story itself has to be good first before you lay on the parody. Spaceballs is a comedy from beginning to end, and for its day quite a clever one (along with some crass humor). It just tells a fun adventure story from beginning to end, skewering silly things about Star Wars, science fiction, and marketing along the way. There's a consistent tone throughout. Galaxy Quest, likewise, has a strong adventure foundation. It starts as a loving parody of how silly the original Star Trek is, and then slowly shifts into a celebration of what that show was before ending on a celebration of the Star Trek fan culture that kept that show alive.
The Orville, on the other hand, doesn't know what it wants to be. 1/2 to 3/4 of the show is comedy so bad that I can't bring myself to care about the characters. Then every once in a while it tries to be serious, but because I was already turned off by the dick jokes, etc. they did with those characters earlier, I don't CARE when the actual pathos happens. It comes off as the writer both being stoned and having ADHD:
"Dicks, though, am I right, brah! But what if...what if that one race we know nothing about...started a war, man! That would be bad, brah! But Dick jokes, right?!"
The Orville is so busy jumping between things that worked for other shows that, IMO, it never establishes a desirable identity of its own. And I know a lighter-style sci-fi show with serious drama CAN work because Farscape and the StarGate franchise pulled it off. They just had better writers. The Orville wants to do smart science fiction without actually being smart. It wants deep pathos without actually earning it.
You can jote down methods of delivery, pick the right one, but comedy has a heavy element on where a personal draws the line and what context the audience wants to use regardless of what you provide. It rides a fine line between insulting someone, eh? and being funny. I enjoy every little joke or skit including the groaners as they humanised the crew more and more. If you don't like Seth style comedy there isn't much anyone can do. The comedy has been a double edge sword but is fundamental to Orville. If the Soul is Trek, the heart is of comedy which it wears on it's sleeve.
Its nowhere near the frat meat head level as you have described, but whatever.
As for the Sci-Fi element they have managed to write new stories not seen in Trek or take old ones and gave it a clever Seth spin on it. You can see where it came from but he doesn't rip it off. They had a proper formal first contact episode never seen in Trek. When they got excited, I got excited when Gordon said "This is what we are here for". Damn straight we are seeking new life.
Seth has picked a much more difficult path than GQ or SB which are straight comedies that can do whatever with few limits. He can't just whip out a giant vacuum cleaner or a death trap engine room to make a joke. Stargate isn't what I call lighter style sci-fi, it's fundamentally very serious with RDA being /s af and finding meme like "Indeed" and Daniel dying for the nth time. It's more a core value of the characters than one of the show. Farscape is a proto Orville that leans quite serious while having flaming explosive piss, bromance, underage sex and cutting off another character's arm to sell. It you are going to claim tonal whiplash Farscape is ultra guilty.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 04, 2019, 11:24:29 AM
New Poster for the Trilogy: including some characters you may not have seen yet.
(https://i.redd.it/v05doi0cngq31.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ThePerm on October 04, 2019, 08:50:23 PM
you know I saw the first trailer again in theaters, and something popped into my mind I hadn't thought about before.
The way the camera pans, it pans down to Rey's the uterine area. It could be possible Rey is pregnant.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Shorty McNostril on October 21, 2019, 10:38:16 PM
Final Trailer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Qn_spdM5Zg
I'm in.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: BeautifulShy on October 21, 2019, 10:57:55 PM
I'm sure someone here already posted that video of that same phenomenon in the prequel trilogy.
This is not a good thing if you are doing prequel level mistakes decades later or didn't learn anything from the last movie. If their aim is to make the prequels look good they are doing a smashing job.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: pokepal148 on October 22, 2019, 02:23:44 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/UHPqTzJ.gif)
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 22, 2019, 06:04:55 AM
I wish any of this appealed to me at all..... this trailer seriously does nothing for me. the last few movies (I didn't watch Solo yet) really do absolutely nothing for me.
But it's supposedly selling 45% more than Endgame on Atom Tickets, so carry on.
Those two fighting gifs though. LOL. That's part of my immersion problem. LOL
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Adrock on October 22, 2019, 09:01:57 AM
The lightsaber criticism applies to every lightsaber duel even in everyone’s beloved original trilogy. Watch Luke and Vader just clash laser swords in Return of the Jedi. They’re not even trying to try to hit each other. Luke is supposed to be a Jedi Master but he’s just wildly swinging all over the goddamn place. It’s admittedly silly when you zero in on it and slow it down.
Point being, if you already have an ax to grind, it’s easy to find fault in something. However, it’s disingenuous to ignore that fault in a thing you like then criticize it in a thing you don’t like just because you like the one thing and not the other thing. This is pretty much why I can’t most criticisms of the sequel trilogy seriously. Once you point out the same **** in the original trilogy, people start rolling out the excuses cart.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on October 22, 2019, 09:55:29 AM
Your first paragraph is BS you know right? The sword master they had would take serious issue with you. The first clash they are in each other's face and Vadar needs to do a close block.
Luke rages out on the first few swings before he closes on the second part. Luke is trying to anticipate where Vadar who is in near constant retreat and feints movement. Once he runs out of space at the railings it's all over. Mark Hamil's greatest bit of input for the sword fights is that he always double grip as he uses it like a heavy sword, he over swings a lot reflecting his lack of skill.
When both aren't within range but still within half sword length they have short taps rather than swings because they know they aren't in range and are testing each other before locking into a sword push.
The problem with the TRoS clips is it is so damn egregious, they are so far away they are slap fighting like two kids. The prequels had the decency to be within strike range. If this was a stand alone movie with zero legacy the action would still be roundly mocked. Your underlying defence is vaporous because of this as "What about this" isn't a defence. Mistakes elsewhere does not excuse mistakes made here. It's like saying some other person did this crime so I can do the same crime.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on October 22, 2019, 09:58:03 AM
I wish any of this appealed to me at all..... this trailer seriously does nothing for me. the last few movies (I didn't watch Solo yet) really do absolutely nothing for me.
But it's supposedly selling 45% more than Endgame on Atom Tickets, so carry on.
Those two fighting gifs though. LOL. That's part of my immersion problem. LOL
Your first paragraph is BS you know right? The sword master they had would take serious issue with you. The first clash they are in each other's face and Vadar needs to do a close block.
It isn’t. Nice though. I’m not willing to discuss this at length with you because you’re, you know, you on these boards. I’ll go as far as posting some gifs when I get home. I can’t make them on my phone.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: broodwars on October 22, 2019, 10:43:09 AM
I find Threepio's line about "saying goodbye to my friends" rather eye-rolling considering how little screentime he's shared with any of the characters in the new trilogy. I guess Threepio's relationship can be filed alongside Rey's Jedi training in the realm of character growth occurring completely off-screen.
As for the trailer, it's a Star Wars trailer. I'm not sure we've ever had a bad one, regardless of the quality of the end product.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on October 22, 2019, 10:58:52 AM
I re-watched it just to type up the response. You don't need to post them and if you have to make them the errors didn't warranted it unlike the other movies. No one has to make a prequel gif given how ubiquitous they are. The clips are cut and looped to perfection.
You can't dodge the fact that your underlying defence is bunk and posting comparisons isn't going to help you. It's garbage in, garbage out.
You keep thinking I go around looking for this stuff but I don't have to. I am not even shooting fish in a barrel, it's getting served up on a plate.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: UncleBob on October 22, 2019, 11:20:12 AM
>It's garbage in, garbage out.
This perfectly sums up any attempt at a conversation regarding movies with oohhboy.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on October 22, 2019, 11:40:16 AM
The Luke-Vader fights of "Empire" and "Jedi" were directed by Bob Anderson, without doubt the greatest sword choreographer of all time. He also did "The Lord of the Rings," "Highlander," "The Princess Bride" and "Mark of Zorro," to name but a few, and was an Olympic fencer. He actually wore the Vader costume for some of the fighting, because Dave Prowse couldn't master the moves. Bob was a true sword master and could depict any style, but his personal training was in European sabre, and it shows in the fights.
Bob's fights are for me the perfect blend of realism and showmanship. The sword movements tend to be a little exaggerated for visual effect, but they always have a martial purpose. The beat/disengage reverse cut that Vader uses to take off Luke's hand is, in my opinion, the best move in cinema sword history. It's not only technically great, it's a move that would only really work with a lightsaber.
The rest of the article is a good read. It also ends with this gem
Quote
I haven't seen the new one yet. I'm going on Sunday, but the cross-guard lightsaber already has me a little worried.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 22, 2019, 11:47:14 AM
Well, I'm not trying to derail any HYPE from anyone regarding the SW series, but I've watched all the theatrical releases, outside of Solo, and I"ll likely watch this new one as well, maybe even in the theater, but the series just does not capture me. at all. The movie will go on to make over $1B and most fans will hopefully be happy with it, but I've realized that SW just isn't my thing
That’s because Atom Tickets is actually working tonight unlike the morning Endgame came out.
LOL. When I first saw the "news" I was thinking "Well, Fandango hasn't said ****, and I'm sure they dwarf Atom tickets....
besides, every site was crippled by traffic on the release of Endgame. I didn't hear anything about any of that for this movie... but I also didn't know when the tickets went on sale, so it's possible I just missed the HYPE train all together.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Adrock on October 22, 2019, 12:05:29 PM
Yeah, I rewatched it as well. And quite honestly, this:
Quote
if you have to make them the errors didn't warranted it unlike the other movies.
is some of the weakest **** I’ve ever seen from you. Just because someone hasn’t made the gifs yet doesn’t make the point invalid. The fact that you’re even trying to conflate them is sad.
Quote
You keep thinking I go around looking for this stuff but I don't have to. I am not even shooting fish in a barrel, it's getting served up on a plate.
You do though. And we’ve caught you numerous times flat-out unwilling to do a simple google search to fact-check claims you make. That’s as far as I’m going to take that particularly if you truly believe in your heart that you don’t.
You’ve brought up my “underlying defense” twice now so let’s address that:
If this was a stand alone movie with zero legacy the action would still be roundly mocked. Your underlying defence is vaporous because of this as "What about this" isn't a defence. Mistakes elsewhere does not excuse mistakes made here. It's like saying some other person did this crime so I can do the same crime.
1. I’ve stated numerous times that I like but don’t love Star Wars. I don’t care about its legacy. If I think something is worthy of criticism, I’ll criticize it. This has been my MO for 13 years on NWR alone. We’re on a Nintendo message board. Who hasn’t criticized that company here? Don’t come at me with that you-would-mock-it-if-it-wasn’t-Star-Wars nonsense. That is demonstrably untrue.
2. I’m not defending it at all. I’m indifferent, ambivalent at best. I very specifically said:
The lightsaber criticism applies to every lightsaber duel even in everyone’s beloved original trilogy. Watch Luke and Vader just clash laser swords in Return of the Jedi. They’re not even trying to try to hit each other. Luke is supposed to be a Jedi Master but he’s just wildly swinging all over the goddamn place. It’s admittedly silly when you zero in on it and slow it down.
To me, it’s silly in all the movies (Vader murdering fools in Rogue One notwithstanding as it wasn’t a duel). I’m here for the ride so I live with it. The frustrating bit to me is selective criticism which was the entire point of the post you’re taking umbrage with.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on October 22, 2019, 01:14:54 PM
Given how close to the wire with the massive reshoots, the astronomical premium for short order VFX/CGI I wouldn't be surprised the movie alone cost $500 million. $1B at the box office isn't going to be enough. "Normal" sequel drop off is most certainly in play and TLJ factor is clear with Solo.
Beyond just the box office money TRoS far more importantly has to bring back the brand which is undeniably wounded. They need to get merch moving, people to go to the SW shopping mall, to be the evergreen money tree Lucas had. TRoS would have to be the most absolute masterpiece, the literal greatest movie released since the invention of movies, like transcendent, make the Sistine chapel look like trash. So not happening in any universe.
RE: light sabres
I literally posted the article and relevant quote regards to OT from a relevant professional. Are you telling me one of the, if not the greatest sword master/choreographer of the time had Vadar and Luke swing around like the idiots in PT or sequel? Read the article, it has some good insights.
How many decades has the internet had to make said gifs and be available one google away? Posting PT sword loop is a copy paste away. As neigh infinite as the internet is, not only did someone had to care enough to do that, others had to perpetuate it. The context to it is so wide spread it doesn't even a caption. Shorty spoke of it and pokepal148 posted it less than 30 minutes later.
Instead of "Make my own gifs" I am sure if the light sabre problem with OT was that significant there would be a legit video or article out there with relevant professionals a google away for you to bring up.
The bad action in the sequels and shown again in TRoS is indicative of the lack of quality, the sloppiness. This applies to any movie. You have stunt people just dying of embarrassment from the TLJ fight. I can post the video if you like with the relevant time stamp.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Adrock on October 22, 2019, 02:47:46 PM
I literally posted the article and relevant quote regards to OT from a relevant professional. Are you telling me one of the, if not the greatest sword master/choreographer of the time had Vadar and Luke swing around like the idiots in PT or sequel? Read the article, it has some good insights.
That’s not what I’m telling you at all. And what is it about some you and instructing me to do homework in order to continue a conversation? Y’all have some weird expectations about having nerd discourse on the internet. The tweet you originally linked to stated:
Quote
they’re not even aiming for one another’s bodies they’re aiming so far away why am i laughing so hard
Again, this has happened in all lightsaber duels. It kind of has to sometimes because sword fights are really hard to pull off convincingly. Even one of my favorite sword fights in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon does this at times if for no other reason than Ang Lee thought it looked cool. Again, I’m in it for the ride, and I can suspend my disbelief. The times in movies in which body parts were aimed for typically results in stabbing or (especially in Star Wars) dismemberment. In the article you quoted:
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The sword movements tend to be a little exaggerated for visual effect, but they always have a martial purpose.
Yep. When the movements are exaggerated, it loses some of that martial effect since a professional wouldn’t do that in a real duel. That’s okay. Surprise, movies have to cheat sometimes. I accept it, and it’s fine. I’m not going to take three seconds from a fucking trailer without context and slow it down then drag a movie I haven’t seen for it.
And since you keep bringing this up, I wanted to post some gifs to point out very specific moments in the Vader/Luke duel in which the characters are clearly not aiming for each other’s body instead of posting a video and saying, “Look at 0:46 and 0:54.” You, as expected, condescended and insulted me for wanting to provide an easier visual for you because for some reason, you can’t have a normal conversation with other people.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Shorty McNostril on October 22, 2019, 03:46:34 PM
That’s because Atom Tickets is actually working tonight unlike the morning Endgame came out.
I knew there must have been something else to that. I expect this will do well but I don't think it'll end up anywhere even close to Endgame. Unless this turns out to be a seriously amazing movie and has serious legs. I do very much enjoy Mr Abrams's work but I don't think any movie maker out there would be able to fix what was broken and wrap it all up in the same movie.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on October 22, 2019, 04:02:04 PM
Quote
Bob's fights are for me the perfect blend of realism and showmanship. The sword movements tend to be a little exaggerated for visual effect, but they always have a martial purpose.
You can't cut a quote like that. The first sentence is inseparable from the second.
Which brings us to
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The Darth Maul three-way duel in Phantom looks nice, is partially based on wushu, particularly toward the end, but is martially ridiculous. There are about 20 moments in the fight when one of the combatants has a clear unopposed opportunity to bop someone else on the head and instead twirls a blade behind their back (a lethal mistake in a real fight) or spins it in their wrist. Most of the blows seem aimed at each other's weapons, rather than parts of their bodies. Pirouetting attacks become the norm.
That is one of the big differences between OT and PT/ST. TRoS is so slack they can't even be bothered to hide it. You put your best footage in the trailer and if that is the best they have, it is going to be dire. The quality gap is massive. PT/ST is bad, trying to rubbish OT to make them look better is bad.
The guy is not above pointing at errors in OT
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Both fighters are cagey and spend more time probing and watching each other than swinging their swords around. Obi Wan does one ridiculous back-turning pirouette, but otherwise it's all pretty solid, and heavily reminiscent of Kurosawa's samurai movies.
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The stickiness of the blades was noticeable in "A New Hope," but became more pronounced as the movies progressed, although it was not applied consistently. Another thing that was not applied consistently was the implied weight of a lightsaber, which seemed tiny in "A New Hope," quite heavy in "Return of the Jedi," and then became light again for the prequels.
If the error is them whiffing a swing he would have said so.
Quote
And since you keep bringing this up, I wanted to post some gifs to point out very specific moments in the Vader/Luke duel in which the characters are clearly not aiming for each other’s body instead of posting a video and saying, “Look at 0:46 and 0:54.” You, as expected, condescended and insulted me for wanting to provide an easier visual for you because for some reason, you can’t have a normal conversation with other people.
It was never going to help you because your assessment is not going to trump expert testimony. You need to bring equally strong evidence to the table.
OT isn't above criticism but the sabre fights aren't where the flaws are. If you were going to post an error at least use the "Force kick". I found it within 10 seconds because it is an significant error/goof.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ThePerm on October 22, 2019, 04:37:39 PM
I was reading some Orville stuff earlier in this thread, and I'm going to side with Ooohboy here. Which, is odd because in the Orville thread we're totally at odds. The first 2-3 episodes of had more sophomoric humor but then the show really got its sea legs down and really has great writing.
As far as light sabers go. This is a PG or PG-13 movie right? Maybe it doesn't matter so much. The fencing and sparing are going to be more fantastical. Here's what a more realistic fight looks like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJcqtaHuQaU
Though I think they should have more severed limbs in the Star Wars movies.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Adrock on October 22, 2019, 05:24:10 PM
You can't cut a quote like that. The first sentence is inseparable from the second.
I can and I did. "Bob's fights are for me the perfect blend of realism and showmanship." Why should I care if the writer believes this? You're really using someone's opinion to back your claims. K.
Quote
It was never going to help you because your assessment is not going to trump expert testimony. You need to bring equally strong evidence to the table.
Visual proof from the movie itself that describes the exact thing in the tweet you posted is not strong evidence for you? K.
You've been telling me I'm wrong before I even do anything. Do you know how ignorant that is? Maybe you don't? Regardless, since you are not willing to have a civil discourse here, this is a waste of my time. I've said my piece. If your best move is to basically say "You're wrong" and not actually address things I've written, we're done here. Best of luck to you.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on October 22, 2019, 06:12:52 PM
If your conviction regarding the gifs are that strong post them and point out why it was a whiffle. Someone of that calibre would not make such obvious mistakes as egregious as PT/ST. With ESB/Jedi if it was left in there was a good reason. Skill level, emotional instability, confidence, physical ability, endurance, focus are factors that are shown on screen.
He gives expert opinion coupled with expert insights and he clearly makes his case. I defer to an expert in their field every time over myself and given the opportunity ask for clarity. Expert opinion can be used in court as evidence if the expert's credibility can be established. Do you really think I would take your opinion over his unless you presented something equally strong? If something was so obviously wrong I would have pointed it out myself.
I knew there must have been something else to that. I expect this will do well but I don't think it'll end up anywhere even close to Endgame. Unless this turns out to be a seriously amazing movie and has serious legs. I do very much enjoy Mr Abrams's work but I don't think any movie maker out there would be able to fix what was broken and wrap it all up in the same movie.
I smelled a rat, your gut feelings served you well. 45% over Endgame was an absurd number factored with everything we know. So I looked for additional information to parse the number as statistics vast majority of the time don't come with any parameters especially when it comes to marketing. It took a minute.
The task is literally impossible, the narrative irrecoverably broken. Then you have the shattered audience. The higher ups with their demands and contractual obligations. Mo money means mo problems as he effectively has infinite budget. The deadline. JJ might not even give a damn anymore as he is going to DC RIP. This is as far from normal as you can get.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ThePerm on October 22, 2019, 06:32:28 PM
I don't think JJ will be in charge of DC, just Superman. DC isn't going to try to do the Marvel thing anymore. The adaptation they've evolved is "Things are only connected if it's convenient" As time goes on these studios are going to be less reliant on theaters. Direct to home blockbusters are going to be force of reckoning in the future. Because of that the continuity model is going to become more like comics...or porn. There's going to be something for everyone.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: pokepal148 on October 22, 2019, 07:13:48 PM
There are plenty of inconsistencies and goofs in the original trilogy, including with the lightsaber duels. (http://www.egosystem.com/starwars/anh/anh10.htm)
Some of them were actually corrected in the special editions.
Star Wars threads stop being fun so quickly around here.
Its sad really. I mean this series is suppose to bring people joy and enjoyment of a world that could be and about the underdog beating an oppressive regime. Now it seems to be that people are upset because the series isn't directly catering to them or some pointless thing like fight mechanics in the movies. But let me throw this out here have any of you that are critizing the lightsaber duals ever think that these Jedi and Sith are at the top of their game using the force and reacting quicker than needed so they are dodging where the lightsaber would have been?
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on October 23, 2019, 12:01:27 AM
As far as light sabers go. This is a PG or PG-13 movie right? Maybe it doesn't matter so much. The fencing and sparing are going to be more fantastical. Here's what a more realistic fight looks like
Though I think they should have more severed limbs in the Star Wars movies.
The attention to detail the sword master brought in OT made it stand out, it gave it gravitas. Even as a kid that was something I could appreciate despite not being able to actualise it. PG 13 isn't an excuse to slack off.
The poor stunt guys as well as Daisy and Adam who couldn't keep up with the action in TLJ. They couldn't prep them enough, just shoved out there to dance. Stunts forced to do their thing in real time rather than being able to adapt to the actor's limitations off screen. Rian didn't give a ****.
Action in movies in general is pretty poor these days. Funny thing is of all the Marvel movies(DP excepted) the one I actually like has the most realism with The Winter Solider. That is Chris Evans going at it in the elevator, no CGI punchman in sight. The actors working hand in hand with stunts. This pretty much just gushing on WS.
https://youtu.be/bAxmIxGXMOY
John Wick has everyone put in the effort no matter who they were. As messy Atomic Blonde was Theron was putting herself out there. Berry smashed it in JW3. Tom Cruise speaks for himself. People can tell when they put the effort in, you are all like "DAAMMNN, that gotta hurt".
I don't think JJ will be in charge of DC, just Superman. DC isn't going to try to do the Marvel thing anymore. The adaptation they've evolved is "Things are only connected if it's convenient" As time goes on these studios are going to be less reliant on theaters. Direct to home blockbusters are going to be force of reckoning in the future. Because of that the continuity model is going to become more like comics...or porn. There's going to be something for everyone.
You are not going to have enough mass replication of theatre equivalent setup to push them aside. The mini theatres these days are pretty good but they can't overcome physics. It distorts well before the bang is a bang, it's just loudness which others are not going to appreciate. Screens can't match the projector other than resolution as it's all digital projection. We have a looonnng way to go before there is any reckoning like what happened to TV.
Star Wars threads stop being fun so quickly around here.
Its sad really. I mean this series is suppose to bring people joy and enjoyment of a world that could be and about the underdog beating an oppressive regime. Now it seems to be that people are upset because the series isn't directly catering to them or some pointless thing like fight mechanics in the movies. But let me throw this out here have any of you that are critizing the lightsaber duals ever think that these Jedi and Sith are at the top of their game using the force and reacting quicker than needed so they are dodging where the lightsaber would have been?
It's the lack of care to the point of flippant disregard. The Force is a terrible excuse, it's not a get out of jail free card. It's not just a "Star Wars" thing. If you did the same in another show people would react just as poorly. If the film maker doesn't care everything suffers.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ejamer on October 23, 2019, 12:51:43 AM
Star Wars has always been a mix of good and bad. Some films lean more to one side than the other, and obviously "good and bad" are pretty subjective goals to start with.
Having just watched the recent trailer, I'm not confident that this will be the end to Star Wars that I was hoping for. Will this movie be better than The Last Jedi? Probably, because that movie had a lot of problems and ended up being (probably) the second worst in the series for me.
Huh. And maybe they'll hit it out of the park. Rogue One was surprisingly good, and I liked most of the story beats they hit in The Force Awakens. I'm going to end up watching this end to the Rey trilogy in theaters regardless, so why not hope for the best and ignore the doom and gloom rumors people seem to be throwing around?
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on October 23, 2019, 01:15:06 AM
Hold off on watching open night or week. That way you know if it is worth going out for it or not. I would only go to an opening night or even first week if I knew it is a 100% sure thing like John Wick. The only NuSW movie I went to the theatres for was R1 mostly because of friends. Great last 1/3 but yeah, it got issues and it's pretty clear where the reshoots are. The same friends called up for the TLJ opening, I flatly turn them down. If they said we will go to the theatres and pick a random movie that wasn't TLJ I probably would have gone.
Hope is not a strategy. Seeing it out of obligation is not great and if that is it, don't go.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Plugabugz on October 23, 2019, 03:27:40 AM
They let John Boyega actually have a hairstyle in this one, so its already a wild improvement over the previous two.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Shorty McNostril on October 23, 2019, 03:27:58 AM
I tell you what, this new version of the theme song in the trailer is just. so. good!!
https://youtu.be/39pbFow9gzg?t=77
The Star Wars music has never meant too much to me. I mean, it's iconic as hell but it's never really got me. But this one, wow. This rendition just has so much majesty. A very fitting theme to close out the saga.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ejamer on October 23, 2019, 08:30:48 AM
Hold off on watching open night or week. That way you know if it is worth going out for it or not. ...
Oh, we won't make it out opening night. But sometime over the holidays, probably after Christmas.
As for being "worth" going to, we almost never go to the theater for movies - the last ones we saw were Mary Poppins and The Last Jedi - so even if the movie bombs critically or with fans, it'll be a worthwhile activity.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on October 23, 2019, 09:05:41 AM
If you knew TRoS was another TLJ travesty would you still go or watch the next random movie?
I tell you what, this new version of the theme song in the trailer is just. so. good!!
The Star Wars music has never meant too much to me. I mean, it's iconic as hell but it's never really got me. But this one, wow. This rendition just has so much majesty. A very fitting theme to close out the saga.
Sigh. John Williams using the microwave again. This is the music version of blue milk.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: BeautifulShy on October 23, 2019, 11:47:18 AM
New Trailer Breakdown from New Rockstars
For BnM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odyP6GqyzEs
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ejamer on October 23, 2019, 02:29:59 PM
If you knew TRoS was another TLJ travesty would you still go or watch the next random movie? ...
We'd still go. My kids aren't that discerning, and we've watched all of the other Star Wars movies. Sometimes the actual quality of the movie matters less than the social event - and even bad Star Wars movies have moments that make them worth watching on the big screen.
That said, if my kids didn't want to go then I'd probably hold out for a home release unless it's spectacular.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: pokepal148 on October 23, 2019, 07:35:28 PM
An interesting theory I've heard that I'm inclined to believe is that some kind of new iteration of Palpatine's personal flagship, the Eclipse, will be making an appearance. The Eclipse stands alongside things like the TIE Defender as one of the better ship designs that the Expanded Universe introduced. They did a really good job making it look visually distinct from the rest of the Star Destroyer line while still looking like it belongs within the original Star Destroyer line.
A big issue I have with the Sequel trilogy is that it feels like it's afraid to introduce new ship designs for their Star Fighters. Keeping the X-wing line around makes sense given that X-wings are probably the most highly accomplished and versatile ship designs in the Star Wars universe. After all, it was an X-wing that destroyed the first Death Star. I do wish they made a few more tweaks with the design though to show that some time has passed.
The T-85 X-wing from Disney's EU sort of tweaks the design of what we saw from the resistance X-wing enough to really make it feel fresh compared to the X-wings we saw in the original trilogy. I feel like the A-wings in TLJ should have been replaced with a completely original design though.
The First Order on the other hand has no excuse. In legends the Empire was actively replacing their old TIE fighters with the superior TIE interceptors. The interceptor is just better than the TIE Fighter. End of story. What they really should have done is used the TIE Defender. It's an absolute juggernaut of a ship that looks incredible from a visual standpoint. (it looks a bit awkward in still images but when you see it in motion it makes sense). It also would have meant the TIE Defender subplot from Rebels would have actually gone somewhere in the overall saga instead of being completely contained within that series because the Empire is too cheap to make the investment necessary to mass produce them in any capacity despite the fact that the Defender is obscenely overpowered for it's time as far as Star Fighters are concerned.
link (https://youtu.be/YWAQ4ZHt-44)
At least though the Capital Ships generally look nice and distinct from their OT counterparts, outside of the Raddus and even than the Mon Calamari cruiser got woefully little screen time in Episode 6 and always kind of felt weirdly abstract (how do they launch fighters for example) which is something that The Last Jedi did a good job of really fleshing that design in a way I really appreciate. It makes sense that the Resistance is going to be scraping the bottom of the barrel as far as ship designs go. With the new republic fleet mostly wiped out and the Resistance fleet now consisting entirely of a single YT-3000 light freighter as of the end of TLJ there really isn't much left as far as newer ships and designs are concerned that the Resistance can call for help.
Instead what we saw from the trailer with that fleet shot is presumably a bunch of planetary defense fleets and whoever else the Resistance could convince to join in banding together. What appears to be the Ghost from Rebels made an appearance, we also have a MC70 from Rogue One and the Hammerhead corvette that appeared in both and is itself a reference to some of the old Star Wars KOTOR games.
Sadly based on the new trailers we're getting old Imperial 1 Star Destroyers for Team "probably Palpatine". They're a bit outdated but there seem to be a lot of them so that's not really an issue. We got a new TIE Fighter design at least. What does it look like again?
On second thought, maybe Disney should just stick with blatantly rehashing OT designs. Or maybe they could have used the TIE Defender from Rebels. Those Star Destroyers seem to have less hanger space than regular Imperial 1s because they each have some kind of giant cannon use for something so it makes sense that Palps would go a bit crazy with the more scaled back fighter compliment the Star Destroyers have to compensate. Either way I'm going to add the TIE Dagger to the ugly TIE _____ design hall of shame, which is basically all of the designs introduced since ROTJ except the TIE Droid and TIE Defender, Kylo's TIE Silencer from TLJ and the TIE Advanced ones the inquisitors use in Rebels which barely even qualify as a new design.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on October 24, 2019, 12:39:45 AM
We'd still go. My kids aren't that discerning, and we've watched all of the other Star Wars movies. Sometimes the actual quality of the movie matters less than the social event - and even bad Star Wars movies have moments that make them worth watching on the big screen.
That said, if my kids didn't want to go then I'd probably hold out for a home release unless it's spectacular.
As mentioned before I have turned down an invitation to see a movie before. I did because I don't want to intentionally watch bad movies and coming out annoyed making my attendance an obligation. Bad movie nights excepted. The movie is part of the event and when I host them a bad movie is going to detract from the experience. I have apologised for unintentionally bad movies and always try to be sure everyone is informed.
When we came out of R1, we were all like, "That was better than TFA, there was some actual SW in it" (TFA lost it's lustre by then")but no one was excited. It was unanimous. We didn't talk about it much. We did something and that was it. That absolutely sucks.
My dad always did his best to show me good, the best movies. Verhoven, James Cameron, Jacky Chan, Jet Li, Chow Young Fat, Arnold, Stallone, SW, Reeves Supes, Studio Ghilbi. Age was not an objection. I was scared ****-less when I saw a bit of Aliens and ran away when I was 5, yet I appreciated this years later. Kids aren't that dumb or lack the ability to be discerning. Good movies are part of your interaction and their upbringing which goes pretty much for everything.
I hated the Tie Defender because it's OP. In Tie Fighter fighting them and flying them was really unfun as it broke the balance. X-Wing had a nice balance where each craft had their niche. The tractor beam was awful too as it broke the game. I love both games but I wish Tie Fighter was more grounded like X-Wing and X-wing had the ability to deal with missiles other than looping.
Gotta agree space craft had no real exposure, dumb af or really any uniqueness in the Sequels. Reskinned Tie Fighter, come on. It was pretty much "BIIGGGEERRR" and "EXPLOSSIIOONS".
The B-Wing didn't get much exposure in OT or EU tbf. Bad ship to fly with such a huge rear end. Nice bomb bay but rather fly an Y-Wing and reload. Sorry Ackbar, it was a bad design.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: BeautifulShy on December 05, 2019, 04:34:12 PM
New interview from JJ Abrams about new force powers being introduced into the series in The Rise of Skywalker. A few snippets.
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The Rise of Skywalker will reveal previously unknown Force powers. “It was really important that we not just redo the things you’ve seen, but add new elements—which we knew will infuriate some people and thrill others,” Abrams told Vanity Fair.
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Among those things are not just new ways of doing sort of traditional, must-have sequences, whether it’s chases or lightsaber battles, or what have you,” Abrams added. “We wanted to make sure that this picture also showed aspects of the Force in ways that go beyond what you’ve seen before.
Full interview is over here on Vanity Fair. https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/12/rise-of-skywalker-new-force-powers
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ThePerm on December 05, 2019, 04:40:34 PM
Teleportation.
That would solve a lot of problems.
I bet people who watched Empire Strikes Back thought Han was dead at the end of that movie. Turns out you can get unfrozen from Carbonite.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: pokepal148 on December 05, 2019, 06:49:12 PM
A lot of the people who get angry about them introducing new force powers with the new movies seem to forget that they've been doing it since Luke force pulled his lightsaber so he could face the Wampa in the opening of episode 5.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Khushrenada on December 05, 2019, 11:32:12 PM
A lot of the people who get angry about them introducing new force powers with the new movies seem to forget that they've been doing it since Luke force pulled his lightsaber so he could face the Wampa in the opening of episode 5.
Was it that new or unexpected? Vader could choke people in A New Hope so it was sort of established that the Force could manipulate objects/things that weren't in contact with a Force user. Seems like a natural enough extension of that.
Anyways, the reason I came to post here is because of something I thought of a couple weeks ago and am finally getting around to it now. As the Star Wars empire begins to try and hype things up for this next movie, there's been a lot of articles about the coming movie. One headline was about Rey's linage and who her parents are. It seems there is significance to that after all. It's not something I've thought much about after The Last Jedi. While it seemed weird at first that the answer was that the parents were supposedly unimportant, I came to just accept it and move on. Now that we are being told that isn't the case and the movie has the title The Rise of Skywalker, one can't help but think that this might mean Luke (or possibly Leia) is one of the parents for Rey yet there has been nothing so far to indicate this is the case or that they recognize her as family. So, how could that make sense?
Then it hit me. Potential spoilers if my theory is correct. Rey could be a clone developed in a lab from various DNA of force users or particularly someone from the Skywalker family like Luke or Anakin himself or a combination of them and other force users. That would explain why she seems to be so naturally powerful. As well, not having a natural birth might explain why no actual parents seemed to exist during the vision Kylo has with Rey. She could even have been an experiment by the Emperor which explains why he seems to be turning up again in this film. Since cloning is something that is canon in the series from earlier films and was also used in the Extended Universe a bit, I could see it being used here now as well. Before it was written off as non-canonical, the Extended Universe had a story where Palpatine had cloned himself to try and escape death and take over those replicas of himself via the Force. Timothy Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy had a clone of Luke called Luuke that came from Luke's severed hand at Cloud City. Later, in the Hand of Thrawn story, Thrawn himself had also set up a cloning facility to create a cloned version of himself if he ever died. Considering the new trilogy hasn't always had the freshest ideas, I could see it using the reveal of Rey as some super Jedi clone experiment. Of course, I could be totally wrong and it turns out Vader banged some other woman in between the first two trilogies and never realized he had another child but that's my theory for now.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Shorty McNostril on December 06, 2019, 12:42:09 AM
I guess that'd be a neat way to retcon Luke's vanishing at the end of Last Jedi. It could be some whole new force technique.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: BeautifulShy on December 06, 2019, 12:50:21 AM
That is an interesting theory Khushrenada but it has a few holes in it. In Force Awakens it was shown that Rey got sold to Unkar Plutt from her parents. Second, in The Last Jedi when Rey went in the mirror cave it was shown that there were Rey going to infinity when she was trying to figure out who her parents were. Rey essentially raised herself.
The other thing which I think is a clue is the subtitles for the Rey Trilogy. The Force Awakens to me means that after Jedi there really wasn't a need for Jedi after the Empire was essentially gone and the Force Awakens meant that with the First Order rising some time between Jedi and Awakens there had to be someone to rise up/awaken.
Next one is The Last Jedi. Now this could go several ways. Luke started off the movie with his mind made up that the Jedi wasn't as good as they could be and that goes back to the Jedi Council in the prequels and how they essentially was trying to control the narrative of who can be the chosen one in Anikin and how they were blind to the Empire rising up right in plain sight. Thus allowing the empire to dig their claws into Anakin and turning him. The other path is that Rey could be the Last Jedi because of a line that Luke said to Kylo Ren that he isn't the last Jedi. Luke is passing on the legacy to Rey to have her do it her own way in the grey Jedi form because the way Luke was doing it wasn't really sustainable. You know just being one way all the time. That can be taxing and you may make a mistake that you regret like sensing Kylo and sensing he has some dark side within him and then drawing your light saber on him.
Finally The Rise of Skywalker. This is a little bit difficult to figure out. It could mean that Luke didn't die fully in the Last Jedi. There was also the ending scene where the young force users in the Last Jedi where they had to hide their powers but when no one was around they used their powers and it is the legend of Skywalker going to the next generation. That could branch out to other series after this planned 9 movie series is done that George Lucas has had planned back in the OT movies.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on December 06, 2019, 12:40:11 PM
I bet people who watched Empire Strikes Back thought Han was dead at the end of that movie. Turns out you can get unfrozen from Carbonite.
Eerrrr what?? They check on him after freezing and he was fine. There is a blinking light, dialogue to say he's fine and in hibernation. How could anyone miss that and assume he couldn't be unfrozen? Why would Vadar try to use it on Luke if he couldn't get him back out alive? I don't even.
A lot of the people who get angry about them introducing new force powers with the new movies seem to forget that they've been doing it since Luke force pulled his lightsaber so he could face the Wampa in the opening of episode 5.
They have never been outrageous, a retcon and wasn't to solve a outside of movie problem. The problem with the Force, a mistake JJ is clearly making is that bad writers use it to get out of the corners they write themselves into. If they need to keep retconning your story maybe they are terrible at it. Another is power creep which is really bad for very obvious reasons.
lol Luke would arrive at his destination naked.
GL never had a "9 movie" plan. He pulled that out of his ass, a retcon to make more movies.
The leaks are true. JJ on international tv BSed everyone. That KK interview was WOOOOOWWW. Good god, never has Hollywood trash burned this brightly. If it bombs it wholly deserves it.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Spak-Spang on December 07, 2019, 02:24:11 AM
Links? I don't know what you are talking about international interviews.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: nickmitch on December 07, 2019, 01:14:35 PM
The lightning thing was pretty new and weird when it happened.
When Luke heard Obi Wan at the end of Episode IV, he could've just been hearing things. But the next movie established that no, he wasn't. Ghosts can just talk to people. By Episode VI, ghosts are real, and they can just show up and give you advice.
I have no qualms about adding force powers. I think it's something that should be explored more now that the EU is gone.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Adrock on December 07, 2019, 04:02:17 PM
The lightning thing was pretty new and weird when it happened.
When Luke heard Obi Wan at the end of Episode IV, he could've just been hearing things. But the next movie established that no, he wasn't. Ghosts can just talk to people. By Episode VI, ghosts are real, and they can just show up and give you advice.
I have no qualms about adding force powers. I think it's something that should be explored more now that the EU is gone.
Yep. That’s pretty much how I see it. I think I brought up the Force ghost thing before. Right on, nickmitch.
I like that the Force is this mysterious thing that in-universe generations discover more of over time. Among the prequel trilogy’s many sins was this bizarre need to explain the Force. Like no, the mystery is the point. It can’t be fully explained; it doesn’t belong to anyone or any group. It isn’t good or evil but can be used for either (from a certain point of view?).
The Force’s fluidity and ability to be added to (within reason, don’t turn into the Avatar for example) is something I hope continues to be explored.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: broodwars on December 07, 2019, 04:02:38 PM
I'm actually kind of shocked that Jedi Battle Meditation hasn't made its way back into the official canon, considering the EU and Knights of the Old Republic used it. It's not like Disney's been reluctant to just steal elements of the EU they liked & then pretend they created them.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Adrock on December 07, 2019, 05:00:48 PM
Disney isn’t stealing if it belongs to them.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: broodwars on December 07, 2019, 06:07:52 PM
When you rule decades of books that were previously canon "non-canon" just so you can put out your own terrible books, I think it's fair to call it "stealing" when you go in and take entire characters and settings from the books you'd discarded. It's certainly creative theft if not in the legal sense.
But hey, remember that Kathleen Kennedy recently said that it was "hard" making new Star Wars films since "there’s no source material. We don’t have comic books. We don’t have 800-page novels. We don’t have anything other than passionate storytellers who get together and talk about what the next iteration might be.”
Unless, of course, you find yourself in need of a villain for Rebels and you decide to just revive Grand Admiral Thrawn from those novels that don't exist.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: nickmitch on December 07, 2019, 06:24:23 PM
The lightning thing was pretty new and weird when it happened.
When Luke heard Obi Wan at the end of Episode IV, he could've just been hearing things. But the next movie established that no, he wasn't. Ghosts can just talk to people. By Episode VI, ghosts are real, and they can just show up and give you advice.
I have no qualms about adding force powers. I think it's something that should be explored more now that the EU is gone.
Yep. That’s pretty much how I see it. I think I brought up the Force ghost thing before. Right on, nickmitch.
I like that the Force is this mysterious thing that in-universe generations discover more of over time. Among the prequel trilogy’s many sins was this bizarre need to explain the Force. Like no, the mystery is the point. It can’t be fully explained; it doesn’t belong to anyone or any group. It isn’t good or evil but can be used for either (from a certain point of view?).
The Force’s fluidity and ability to be added to (within reason, don’t turn into the Avatar for example) is something I hope continues to be explored.
The fluidity makes it mysterious and cool. Like, Kylo and Rey are linked telepathically by the Force. WTF? Why is this happening? Who knows! That's the fun part. There's a mystery there, and it's fun to see play out.
When you rule decades of books that were previously canon "non-canon" just so you can put out your own terrible books, I think it's fair to call it "stealing" when you go in and take entire characters and settings from the books you'd discarded. It's certainly creative theft if not in the legal sense.
But hey, remember that Kathleen Kennedy recently said that it was "hard" making new Star Wars films since "there’s no source material. We don’t have comic books. We don’t have 800-page novels. We don’t have anything other than passionate storytellers who get together and talk about what the next iteration might be.”
Unless, of course, you find yourself in need of a villain for Rebels and you decide to just revive Grand Admiral Thrawn from those novels that don't exist.
It's hard to call it stealing, but I guess it is, technically. Disney bought the rights, cancelled the cannon, and is lifting story ideas/characters.
What I think they should do is just say "**** it" and go all out. The rules for the old cannon was that the movies were absolute and anything that contradicts them wasn't official. They could've kept that same energy and just straight up jacked story lines and made them into movies.
Complaining you don't have source material is CRAZY to me. You have it. It's right there. Just freaking take it. If it's hard to come up with new things, just use things that exist! It's weird how that doesn't click.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: pokepal148 on December 07, 2019, 06:36:29 PM
When you rule decades of books that were previously canon "non-canon" just so you can put out your own terrible books,
To be clear the original Expanded Universe was also mostly terrible books. Do you want "The Character Assassination of Han Solo Courtship of Princess Leia" or would the distinguished works of Kevin J Anderson be more your liking.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: broodwars on December 07, 2019, 11:09:32 PM
When you rule decades of books that were previously canon "non-canon" just so you can put out your own terrible books,
To be clear the original Expanded Universe was also mostly terrible books. Do you want "The Character Assassination of Han Solo Courtship of Princess Leia" or would the distinguished works of Kevin J Anderson be more your liking.
There are dozens, if not hundreds, of original Expanded Universe books, games, comics, etc. Yeah, in a sample size that large, you're going to get duds. I think I actually did read quite a few Kevin J Anderson books back in the day, though, in particular the Young Jedi Knights series. There were the usual ones everyone read, of course, too, like Timothy Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy, etc.
Funny thing is, Disney brought Zahn back in to write new Thrawn books once Rebels brought him back from Disney's Thanos Snap. Haven't seen or heard anyone say anything about them. Say what you will about the original Expanded Universe novels, but people actually read them. And I daresay people would have preferred where Luke; Leia; & Han ended up in the EU over how they've ended up in the Sequel Trilogy.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: UncleBob on December 07, 2019, 11:30:00 PM
You know, I had been avoiding this thread because I figured it'd end up bein guys shitting all over the luke-warm interest/excitement of everyone else for absolutely no reason but to make it known how edgy they are for not liking Star Wars anymore...
Glad to see I didn"t miss out on anything.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: broodwars on December 07, 2019, 11:40:33 PM
You know, I had been avoiding this thread because I figured it'd end up bein guys shitting all over the luke-warm interest/excitement of everyone else for absolutely no reason but to make it known how edgy they are for not liking Star Wars anymore...
Glad to see I didn"t miss out on anything.
Don't worry. As these forums have always shown, there will always be a place here to worship our new rodent corporate overlords. Hell, these forums probably wouldn't still exist without them.
Besides, I only came in here to mention Jedi Battle Meditation since folks were talking about the possible introduction of new Force Powers. It's a power that I'm surprised Disney hasn't reintroduced at this point considering its implications in large fleet battles. It's also an ability that could be introduced without half the fanbase calling B.S. on since it has an origin in the EU and was prominently featured in one of the most beloved Star Wars games. It's also so vaguely defined that Disney could spin it any direction they pleased.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ejamer on December 09, 2019, 12:45:57 PM
As someone who read a bunch of Star Wars expanded universe content, most of it was really bad and thrown together by authors who didn't really know what they were talking about and seemingly didn't care.
Losing the few that stood tall as well-written, carefully plotted stories would have been totally justified if they need to wipe the slate clean because there was a more cohesive story that they wanted to tell. Sadly, I'm not convinced that's the case. The new expanded universe seems just as terrible as the old one... so it makes you wonder what the point was other than to make it easier for people to churn out crap to sell without having to research or understand the universe they are trying to set that content in...
That said, as long as most people enjoy Star Wars stuff (and it seems like most do; and to clarify, I usually do too) then who cares? Let people have fun, without getting super involved in the lore minutia.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: pokepal148 on December 09, 2019, 01:22:49 PM
As someone who read a bunch of Star Wars expanded universe content, most of it was really bad and thrown together by authors who didn't really know what they were talking about and seemingly didn't care.
Losing the few that stood tall as well-written, carefully plotted stories would have been totally justified if they need to wipe the slate clean because there was a more cohesive story that they wanted to tell. Sadly, I'm not convinced that's the case. The new expanded universe seems just as terrible as the old one... so it makes you wonder what the point was other than to make it easier for people to churn out crap to sell without having to research or understand the universe they are trying to set that content in...
It's like Snoke said in episode 8. "A Star Wars expanded universe rises, and terrible hack writers to meet it."
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Shorty McNostril on December 17, 2019, 03:27:03 AM
So early buzz about 9 is mixed.
TLJ was praised by all the advanced screening critics. We know how that turned out. If this is being less than enthusiastically received by said critics then I'm going to consider that a win. There is also talk that this movie takes a huge dump on TLJ so that alone applause worthy if it turns out to be true.
In all honesty, I'm expecting 2.5 hours of fan service and spectacle. The story is a write off thanks to its predecessor. There is no chance of salvaging it. So they'll focus on what they can work with. I know this is shallow as hell but if I see some epic Jedi (read: Luke) action and some fun dog-fighting then I'll be a happy boy. If you don't go in expecting a good narrative I think you'll have a good time here. But time will tell.
Two days to go.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Spak-Spang on December 17, 2019, 05:25:40 AM
I don't necessarily think the new Star Wars is bad, but I don't care about ANY of the new characters. None of them have been interesting, except for maybe Rey and Kylo. I did like some of the stuff they did in The Last Jedi. For instance, I liked the idea that they were basically mind melded together against their will. I like to think that plan backfired. I like that Luke was reluctant to train Rey, and I liked Luke Skywalker ghost fight...I just think it shouldn't have killed him. The rest of the movie, literally everything with every other character was garbage and pointless. I didn't care. Their actions and stories didn't have any weight to the outcome of the movie. Their choices felt stupid and dramatically out of place. That said, what I am excited about in this last movie, is that Last Jedi has made the last movie utterly unpredictable. The original Star Wars trilogy had a flow that was understandable. The Rebellion is introduced and has a new hero. The Rebellion is crumbling even though the new hero is rising, just to have a great fall. The Hero and the Rebellion overcome all odds and have a great victory.
I don't feel like this new trilogy is following any story arc at all.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ejamer on December 17, 2019, 09:24:47 AM
Early hype is trickling out and people are saying that it's not a dumpster fire! Of course, early hype artists said the same thing about the last movie...
All kidding aside, the actual comments I heard from people after the advance screening were as non-committal as you could get. Sort of like "I'm still trying to sound excited but am making absolutely no comment on the quality of this film and have some doubts myself". My expectations are low going in; fingers crossed it's better than they last one.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: lolmonade on December 17, 2019, 10:06:31 AM
Early hype is trickling out and people are saying that it's not a dumpster fire! Of course, early hype artists said the same thing about the last movie...
All kidding aside, the actual comments I heard from people after the advance screening were as non-committal as you could get. Sort of like "I'm still trying to sound excited but am making absolutely no comment on the quality of this film and have some doubts myself". My expectations are low going in; fingers crossed it's better than they last one.
From what I've read, the most common impression I've seen from people not giving effusive praise is that there's a lot going on in the movie, and that there's lots of "fan service".
I fall on the side of The Last Jedi being a great pivot point that could have been the foundation for a fantastic final movie, but between the reintroduction of Palpatine and much of the cast coming out with less than glowing comments about TLJ, I've already accepted Star Wars isn't a franchise for me any longer.
Hope y'all get what you want out of it.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: BeautifulShy on December 18, 2019, 03:20:22 AM
The original Star Wars trilogy had a flow that was understandable. The Rebellion is introduced and has a new hero. The Rebellion is crumbling even though the new hero is rising, just to have a great fall. The Hero and the Rebellion overcome all odds and have a great victory.
I don't feel like this new trilogy is following any story arc at all.
The Force Awakens introduces the Resistance and Rey is the new hero. The Last Jedi shows all the failure that amounts to going nowhere even through Rey brings Luke to face Kylo Ren. In the final part of The Last Jedi it is being shown that there is still hope even though the Resistance is dwindling. In The Rise of Skywalker possible hope and defeat of the First Order along with KyloRen? I hope people can see the stand ins to the characters and where things are similar to the OT. Wait and see in 2 days.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: lolmonade on December 18, 2019, 08:31:20 AM
The original Star Wars trilogy had a flow that was understandable. The Rebellion is introduced and has a new hero. The Rebellion is crumbling even though the new hero is rising, just to have a great fall. The Hero and the Rebellion overcome all odds and have a great victory.
I don't feel like this new trilogy is following any story arc at all.
The Force Awakens introduces the Resistance and Rey is the new hero. The Last Jedi shows all the failure that amounts to going nowhere even through Rey brings Luke to face Kylo Ren. In the final part of The Last Jedi it is being shown that there is still hope even though the Resistance is dwindling. In The Rise of Skywalker possible hope and defeat of the First Order along with KyloRen? I hope people can see the stand ins to the characters and where things are similar to the OT. Wait and see in 2 days.
Yeah, I think if there's anything damnable (or redeemable if you disagree with me) about this trilogy writ large, it's that they've clearly followed some of the same skeletal structure of the original trilogy.
Same song, different verse/lyrics.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: BeautifulShy on December 18, 2019, 12:23:38 PM
The original Star Wars trilogy had a flow that was understandable. The Rebellion is introduced and has a new hero. The Rebellion is crumbling even though the new hero is rising, just to have a great fall. The Hero and the Rebellion overcome all odds and have a great victory.
I don't feel like this new trilogy is following any story arc at all.
The Force Awakens introduces the Resistance and Rey is the new hero. The Last Jedi shows all the failure that amounts to going nowhere even through Rey brings Luke to face Kylo Ren. In the final part of The Last Jedi it is being shown that there is still hope even though the Resistance is dwindling. In The Rise of Skywalker possible hope and defeat of the First Order along with KyloRen? I hope people can see the stand ins to the characters and where things are similar to the OT. Wait and see in 2 days.
Yeah, I think if there's anything damnable (or redeemable if you disagree with me) about this trilogy writ large, it's that they've clearly followed some of the same skeletal structure of the original trilogy.
Same song, different verse/lyrics.
This is what upsets me about Star Wars Fans. You expect something different and it tries to do it in general people crap on it. Oh it is too similar and people complain that it is just a retread.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ejamer on December 18, 2019, 01:51:40 PM
That generalization might be accurate for some... but I think it's really unfair to use that as a broad brush to dismiss all complaints.
I'm happy if they do glorified remakes that hit familiar plot points and provide little more than fan service, or if they go completely outside expectations and take the Star Wars lore in completely new directions... They can do whatever they want and still draw my support, as long as the movies are done well. What disappoints about the recent Star Wars movies is how often the writing veers into really bad territory - whether due to pacing, plot, dialog, or some combination of the three.
That is why The Last Jedi failed for me. The movie got a lot of things right in the script, and should have been a great centerpiece for the latest trilogy. Unfortunately it also made a few choices that were laughably bad, making it impossible to appreciate the film as a whole. Critics and apologists defend their views by ignoring the bad choices, fanatics attack and deride everything about the film using the script failures to dismiss everything about it. The truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle.
Sadly, that still leaves us with a Star Wars trilogy that is failing in part because it lacked consistent vision and in part because the people put in charge simply couldn't be bothered to write a decent script. (Someone really should have looked at the big plot points and asked: Does this make sense? Does this advance the story in some way? Whenever the answer was "No", things should have been changed. This isn't rocket science, and just a few moderate changes would have taken a totally mediocre film and turned into something truly memorable.)
Honestly, I'm not expecting anything from Star Wars at this point. If it's fun, or interesting, or different, or weird... that's all fine. As long they provide any kind of narrative that makes sense and is compelling (for any kind of reason, nostalgia or otherwise) then I'm sold. So far, the latest content getting released is having a hard time to meet those criteria.
With all of that said: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/2018/03/16/star-wars-last-jedi-science-movie-reviews/#135deba174e6
Short version: people hold different opinions, it's all ok.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: lolmonade on December 18, 2019, 02:36:58 PM
I don't want to rehash TLJ arguments, so i'll side-step that lol.
I think creating a new trilogy in this series is an unwinnable situation unless they were willing to chart their own path in the universe. If you try to repeat the same movie but just add tweaks, you get an Anchorman 2 sitaution. ep 7 & 8 from a 10,000 ft view looks like a debate between two filmmakers whether star wars should hold themselves suffocatingly close to the OT or stake their own claim.
Whether you think TLJ went too far or not, I suspect based on the critical reception that ep 9 will only work if you're willing to turn your brain off and enjoy a spectacle, which isn't generally what i'm looking for in movies star wars or otherwise.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ejamer on December 18, 2019, 03:57:15 PM
... a debate between two filmmakers whether star wars should hold themselves suffocatingly close to the OT or stake their own claim.
Whether you think TLJ went too far or not, ...
This still misses the point that it doesn't matter how far either approach was taken, but how well (or poorly) it was executed. If TLJ was well executed, then people complaining wouldn't have any leg to stand on; it wasn't. The only viable way out now is to go for fan service and hope people will just write off any missteps from the past two movies.
My only take-away from this whole debacle is that anyone planning to create a trilogy based on an already-popular franchise should plan the whole thing from the outset, and then be sure that the people executing on that plan actually share your vision. It sounds to me like they failed both points pretty hard here.
Oh well. Given the circumstances, if the they lean hard into fan service and nostalgia for the next film as some are hinting at, that's probably as satisfactory of an ending as can be managed.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: lolmonade on December 19, 2019, 03:44:17 PM
Quote
This still misses the point that it doesn't matter how far either approach was taken, but how well (or poorly) it was executed. If TLJ was well executed, then people complaining wouldn't have any leg to stand on; it wasn't. The only viable way out now is to go for fan service and hope people will just write off any missteps from the past two movies.
Given that it's clear I have very different opinions about The Last Jedi than you (and many others here) have, as I stated before, I'm not broaching the granular details of that movie. I was talking more broadly - trying to take it from a 10,000 ft view.
My only take-away from this whole debacle is that anyone planning to create a trilogy based on an already-popular franchise should plan the whole thing from the outset, and then be sure that the people executing on that plan actually share your vision. It sounds to me like they failed both points pretty hard here.
This I absolutely agree with.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Adrock on December 19, 2019, 06:47:13 PM
I think there was a plan with certain story beats that it had to hit. And like any story, it allowed for changes, improvisation etc. In the original trilogy, there was uncertainty over whether Han Solo would even be in Episode VI because they didn't know if Harrison Ford would sign on for another movie. Han Solo's absence would have radically changed Return of the Jedi, but Lucas and co. could still get to the finish line without him. The story needs Luke; it benefits by having Han. If Mark Hamill was in the same contractual position in 1982 and refused, I don't think they could get to the finish line and it remain the same story.
That said, depending on how Rise of Skywalker plays out, the problem may be that the sequel trilogy filmmakers changed something they couldn't afford to change. George R. R. Martin explains this better than I could:
Quote
I’ve been planting all these clues that the butler did it, then you’re halfway through a series and suddenly thousands of people have figured out that the butler did it, and then you say the chambermaid did it? No, you can’t do that.
What did they change? Well, I haven't seen the movie yet. If I had to guess, Palpatine is the chambermaid. Ian McDiarmid is excellent so I'll keep an open mind. However, I'm struggling to imagine a scenario in which Palpatine returning makes any sense.
This is just my speculation, but I feel like the plan was Snoke = Darth Plagueis, everyone figured it out immediately, and instead of leaning into it, they panicked, called up McDiarmid, and walked back on Rey being a nobody so they can (weakly) justify Palpatine falling thousands of feet, bursting into a pillar of energy, and surviving the Death Star II exploding all up in his grill because Rey is his granddaughter or some other such nonsense.
I liked The Last Jedi. I thought it set up a fairly clear path for Episode IX. Here's what I took from The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi/my fan fiction version of Rise of Skywalker:
Snoke = Darth Plagueis because he can resurrect himself through sheer knowledge and power in the Force. He's no longer a Sith because **** those guys. His Sith apprentice killed him and let an empire die.
Darth Plagueis created Anakin Skywalker through sheer knowledge of the Force for no other reason than because he could. Imagine being so powerful you can just create life (without boning) and still want more power.
Snoke is destroyed once and for all by the last of the Skywalker bloodline (Ben Solo), meaning Snoke's lust for power is ultimately his undoing.
Kylo Ren never turns back to the Light Side. They did that redemption arc already with Darth Vader. No need to retread ground. Kylo Ren should die because his anger, selfishness, and inability to compromise or see reason leads him down a path beyond redemption. Also, the Skywalker bloodline should end because it fucked a lot of things up in a galaxy far, far away for like 50 years. So many people died...
Rey is a nobody because it's okay to be a nobody and build yourself up into a legend. If she wants to take up the Skywalker mantle and call herself Rey Skywalker at the very end because it inspires hope in others, I still think that fits narratively and thematically. The bloodline should end, but the name still means something.
Luke was The Last Jedi, maybe Leia if Carrie Fisher didn't pass away. Rey aligns with the Light Side of the Force but rejects the teachings of the Jedi because Luke is right: "At the height of their powers, they allowed Darth Sidious to rise, create the Empire, and wipe them out." In fact, Luke's Jedi Order failed miserably too so that's twice the Jedi allowed a super power to **** things up.
The way I saw it, these trilogies would ultimately tell the story of the end of both the Sith AND Jedi, the rise and fall of the Skywalker bloodline, and why the Skywalker name lives on and why it's important that it does. To me anyway, a lot of these things seemed perfectly set up then the filmmakers decided, "How about Palpatine?"
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: nickmitch on December 24, 2019, 06:05:35 PM
. . .walked back on Rey being a nobody so they can (weakly) justify Palpatine falling thousands of feet, bursting into a pillar of energy, and surviving the Death Star II exploding all up in his grill because Rey is his granddaughter or some other such nonsense.
[ . . .]
If she wants to take up the Skywalker mantle and call herself Rey Skywalker at the very end because it inspires hope in others, I still think that fits narratively and thematically. The bloodline should end, but the name still means something.
LOL.
I liked the movie though.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ejamer on December 27, 2019, 08:29:32 PM
Saw The Rise of Skywalker today, and felt it was pretty good.
Yes, there are some plot holes and plenty of WTF moments where they break all rules of the normal and Star Wars universes without any good reason... but (whether you like the plot choices they made or not) the movie rarely gets boring for long stretches. I'll take that as a win. It's also got a lot of fan service; some of that fan service was pretty nonsensical, but as the 9th movie in an "epic space opera" that has rarely felt planned out beyond the first movie, sometimes fan service isn't a bad way to go.
Let's be honest here: most of the Star Wars movies are flawed, some badly. Although the overall series is often talked about like some kind of masterpiece, it's only in rare moments that the movies live up to that hyperbole. As such, this movie sits comfortably in the top half of my Star Wars film rankings - warts and all.
It's a helluva lot better than The Last Jedi was, at least on first viewing.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on January 06, 2020, 12:47:50 AM
I will never see RoS.
But man I love high level bus demolition derby Disney is having.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Spak-Spang on January 07, 2020, 06:14:16 AM
This makes me wonder what everyones ranks of the main Saga are.
Here is mine: Empire Strikes Back Return of the Jedi Star Wars Phantom Menace The Force Awakens Revenge of the Sith Attack of the Clones The Last Jedi
I have not seen RoS, but I will probably put it above Attack of the Clones and The Last Jedi.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on January 07, 2020, 06:18:57 AM
OT
That's it.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ejamer on January 07, 2020, 08:49:15 AM
I find rating the Star Wars movies to be difficult... some of the movies that I enjoy aren't the ones I'd consider to be best, whether that's due to nostalgia or other factors. Still, if talking about which movies I'd be most willing to re-watch right now then my list would look something like this:
1. Empire Strikes Back 2. Return of the Jedi 3. Rogue One 4. The Force Awakens 5. A New Hope 6. Rise of Skywalker 7. Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure * 8. Ewoks: The Battle for Endor * 9. Phantom Menace 10. Revenge of the Sith 11. Solo ** 12. The Last Jedi 13. Attack of the Clones
* Very vague memories of the old Ewok spin-off movies; pretty sure they aren't good movies, but it's been so many years since seeing either that they rank higher on my "to watch" list anyway ** Solo might have ranked higher if I hadn't seen it recently
Honestly, the bottom half of that list gets pretty hard to watch, with pacing and storytelling both pushing the boundaries of what I'd enjoy watching.
As a bonus, my favorite Star Wars-related TV shows are probably: - Clone Wars - The Mandalorian - Rebels - Star Wars: Droids - Ewoks
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: lolmonade on January 07, 2020, 02:54:06 PM
I Saw the Rise of Skywalker about a week ago. My main thought is that JJ Abrahms should be developing Star Wars theme park rides, not directing movies, because he loves some of the spectacle and to have winks and nods to fans moreso than good storytelling or decent dialogue.
It was a fine enough movie if I turned my brain off and just watched the neat laser pew pews and the glo-stick swords to bwooow bwoow clash clash. But there's also enough evidence that great, compelling storytelling and character development within the star wars universe is possible if the people making it aren't afraid to step outside the structure of the OT, and we didn't get that here.
None of this is the fault of the actors, who I think all did the best with what was handed them in some truly awful dialogue, especially the main 4 (Daisy Ridley, John Boyega, Adam Driver, Oscar Isaac).
The biggest mistakes IMO of this whole exercise of new movies has been:
- Not sticking with one director. Even as someone who loves The Last Jedi, it made JJ compress 2 movies-worth of events into the last to its detriment.
- Feeling like it had to be connected as some larger 9-movie arc. This trilogy should have been much more new cast focused. All the need to loop-in every and any prior character into these steals from all these new compelling characters they established. Finn is a really compelling character (Storm Trooper that abandons his post). Kylo is a fascinating antagonist figure they could have done more with. They even snuck some interesting backstory into Poe. Everyone but Rey gets pretty snuffed out from developing a more complete story arc because of how much callback is introduced throughout.
- Related to the above, having any return of Palpatine. More than anything, this is a colossally stupid inclusion, completely unjustified in the narrative, and justifies a redemption arc for a character that would have been better served as an irredemable downward spiral.
Prequels are still by far the worst movies in the main numbered entries, but The Rise of Skywalker sits somewhere inbetween that big divide between the prequels and all the other ones.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: BeautifulShy on January 18, 2020, 12:22:15 AM
So the original plot has been leaked and I have to admit it is a lot better than the Rise of Skywalker that we got. Leia played a big part in the original plot and when Carrie Fisher died things had to be changed to what we got. Here is a video of what was going to be the original plat of the 9th movie in the Star Wars saga.
For BnM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQgdW6eR8rc
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: pokepal148 on January 18, 2020, 01:01:53 AM
That script sounds incredible compared to what we got.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on January 18, 2020, 01:47:07 AM
If you are going to post that post the OG source.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ShS32kJclU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m62H56LMB-U
I told ya all JJ is a hack.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: BeautifulShy on January 18, 2020, 01:55:22 AM
I am not going to watch 4 hours of content to respond to what you posted.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on January 18, 2020, 02:05:16 AM
You don't have to watch it. It's not about my statement that JJ is a hack.
It's a bit of disservice not to post the original source of the script as it comes from Burnett.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: BeautifulShy on January 18, 2020, 02:12:06 AM
You don't have to watch it. It's not about my statement that JJ is a hack.
It's a bit of disservice not to post the original source of the script as it comes from Burnett.
You are right I am sorry. I was actually coming back to this topic to post thank you for posting the original source.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Adrock on January 18, 2020, 03:50:54 AM
People probably would have hated Duel of the Fates anyway, right? We should at least acknowledge that before we start discussing this. There's no way anyone who hated The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi would have praised even this version of Episode IX. Colin Trevorrow was like everyone's favorite punching bag after The Book of Henry flopped.
That said, Trevorrow's Dual of the Fates appears better than the Episode IX we got if only because it leaned more into what was already set by The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi (though perhaps not enough). My main criticism of Rise of Skywalker essentially boils down to: YOU DIDN'T EARN THAT. It's what Return of the Jedi would have been if they walked back on [sopiler]Darth Vader being Luke's father[/sopiler] and spent most of the movie trying to justify that decision.
Anyway, Trevorrow makes some odd choices which may have been ditched had he had a chance to revise. These include:
Kylo Ren having a mask put on still hot so it melts onto his face. Why would they do that?
Some dialog sounds awkward.
The entirety of Tor Valum. Don't introduce a major villain/Sith entity in the final installment.
Quasi-shipping Rey and Poe.
The reveal of Kylo Ren killing Rey's parents. That's completely unearned and unnecessary. He's Supreme Leader of an oppressive regime. Rey doesn't need more motivation to stop Kylo Ren.
Kylo Ren blinding Rey. Seems unnecessary.
Kylo Ren throwing Rey down some stairs instead of, you know, murder-death-killing her.
The entirety of the final Kylo Ren/Rey duel. He's redeemed after giving back some life force he stole from her. Why does everyone want Kylo Ren redeemed?
Hux kills himself with purple lightsaber.
Rey shooting the breeze with Luke, Yoda, and Obi-Wan in the astral plane.
R2-D2 projecting holographic memories. More nostalgia bait. Pass.
I don't really want to get into Rise of Skywalker's various issues right now. At the very least, Trevorrow's Dual of the Fates doesn't bring back Palpatine from the dead for a weak twist on Rey's lineage that ultimately had absolutely no payoff.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ejamer on January 18, 2020, 08:49:20 AM
The "leaked script" sounds pretty decent, and I like the big picture. There are a bunch of details that I don't particularly like as described, and some especially weak moments in the way things are wrapped up... but some of that might've been revised. Even if it wasn't, the movie sounds fun to watch.
I don't know though. Would that proposed script really be better than Rise of Skywalker? Both have some good and some bad points, and that's running on a lot of assumptions regarding how the "leaked script" would turn out. It's also easy to see how the death of Carrie Fisher would've made that script difficult to film - I think the leadership shown by her character is integral to the story (and one of the parts I liked most about it). Depending on what your expectations are for the final movie in a trilogy of trilogies, I'm not sure we'll ever be able to say definitively which story is "best".
I'm also a bit worried that some of the moments that sound good might not have turned out that way. Managing the "side stories" would've had to be done better than in The Last Jedi, because the pacing and lack of urgency (and relevance) there absolutely killed pacing and makes re-watching that film a painful slog. I'm not against having so many split lines of action in the film, but it would take a fine touch to make things come together well.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Spak-Spang on January 18, 2020, 09:28:23 AM
That leaked script may have been a first draft. Much could have been ironed out to make it better.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Luigi Dude on January 18, 2020, 11:48:36 AM
That leaked script may have been a first draft. Much could have been ironed out to make it better.
That's true but at the same time it could have been worse. Rise of Skywalker has had story leaks for over a year now and some of the things in the early draft of the storyline had the film make more sense that got cut or heavily changed. So there's no guarantee Disney wouldn't have forced reshots or changes that could have caused the final product to be just as messed up as the film we got, just in different ways.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on January 18, 2020, 02:29:12 PM
People probably would have hated Duel of the Fates anyway, right? We should at least acknowledge that before we start discussing this. There's no way anyone who hated The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi would have praised even this version of Episode IX. Colin Trevorrow was like everyone's favorite punching bag after The Book of Henry flopped.
That said, Trevorrow's Dual of the Fates appears better than the Episode IX we got if only because it leaned more into what was already set by The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi (though perhaps not enough). My main criticism of Rise of Skywalker essentially boils down to: YOU DIDN'T EARN THAT. It's what Return of the Jedi would have been if they walked back on [sopiler]Darth Vader being Luke's father[/sopiler] and spent most of the movie trying to justify that decision.
Anyway, Trevorrow makes some odd choices which may have been ditched had he had a chance to revise. These include:
Kylo Ren having a mask put on still hot so it melts onto his face. Why would they do that?
Some dialog sounds awkward.
The entirety of Tor Valum. Don't introduce a major villain/Sith entity in the final installment.
Quasi-shipping Rey and Poe.
The reveal of Kylo Ren killing Rey's parents. That's completely unearned and unnecessary. He's Supreme Leader of an oppressive regime. Rey doesn't need more motivation to stop Kylo Ren.
Kylo Ren blinding Rey. Seems unnecessary.
Kylo Ren throwing Rey down some stairs instead of, you know, murder-death-killing her.
The entirety of the final Kylo Ren/Rey duel. He's redeemed after giving back some life force he stole from her. Why does everyone want Kylo Ren redeemed?
Hux kills himself with purple lightsaber.
Rey shooting the breeze with Luke, Yoda, and Obi-Wan in the astral plane.
R2-D2 projecting holographic memories. More nostalgia bait. Pass.
I don't really want to get into Rise of Skywalker's various issues right now. At the very least, Trevorrow's Dual of the Fates doesn't bring back Palpatine from the dead for a weak twist on Rey's lineage that ultimately had absolutely no payoff.
It wouldn't save Star Wars. But instead of SW being despised it would be more it's finally over now and we got one actual movie out of it.
The entire trilogy if you can even call it that is one of "You didn't earn that" whether it be the movies or the people making them.
Tor Valum isn't a villain nor a Snoke replacement. He is a way to turn Kylo into a villain instead of a joke.
Shipping Reylo is far worse given that is a creepy abusive relationship. Rey and Finn is the natural choice but that was never going to happen. It also reinforces that time has pass.
Kylo killing Rey's parents is somewhat necessary as Rey doesn't actually have any motivation to do what she does. She goes somewhere, does things because the writer needs it rather than her needing to do so.
Blinding Rey is critical as Rey needs to get hurt and given how OP she is it has to hurt a lot to make Kylo as a threat.
Kylo isn't redeemed nor should he be given there is no one to do it. The only person who could stop Kylo was Ben. This also prevents Rey winning the fight again. It's a twisted mirror of the throne room scene.
Had the trilogy actually worked R2-D2 scene would have worked because it would have been earned instead of endless nostalgia bait.
The "leaked script" sounds pretty decent, and I like the big picture. There are a bunch of details that I don't particularly like as described, and some especially weak moments in the way things are wrapped up... but some of that might've been revised. Even if it wasn't, the movie sounds fun to watch.
I don't know though. Would that proposed script really be better than Rise of Skywalker? Both have some good and some bad points, and that's running on a lot of assumptions regarding how the "leaked script" would turn out. It's also easy to see how the death of Carrie Fisher would've made that script difficult to film - I think the leadership shown by her character is integral to the story (and one of the parts I liked most about it). Depending on what your expectations are for the final movie in a trilogy of trilogies, I'm not sure we'll ever be able to say definitively which story is "best".
I'm also a bit worried that some of the moments that sound good might not have turned out that way. Managing the "side stories" would've had to be done better than in The Last Jedi, because the pacing and lack of urgency (and relevance) there absolutely killed pacing and makes re-watching that film a painful slog. I'm not against having so many split lines of action in the film, but it would take a fine touch to make things come together well.
The word is one of the reasons Trevorrow walked as he couldn't flip Leia's and Luke's death in TLJ or keep Luke alive because of KK and Rian. Remember, TLJ had a year before release after Fisher's death. If anything needed reshoots this would be it. TLJ would still be omni bad but at least we wouldn't have gotten Mary Poppins.
Having multiple stories running is necessary given the resistance had to be rebuilt and state of the galaxy be shown. The logistics of why all these ships are there for the final show down.
A bizarre thing about these movies is everything about the production and decision making did everything it could to not be a trilogy. Instead it's 3 sequels that is labelled a trilogy. It's like calling Die Hard 1 2 3 a trilogy.
One thing for sure, DoF would have been the better movie. It's coherent. Makes use of it's characters. It doesn't undermine itself by turning a chunk of the movie irrelevant later or Canto biting it. No retarded mc guffins. It doesn't pervert it into a victory for Palpatine nor deal with the absurdity of un-vaporising him then killing himself. It undoes the disrespect done to Luke.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ejamer on January 18, 2020, 08:37:59 PM
... One thing for sure, DoF would have been the better movie. ...
Can't agree with any certainty.
It might have been a better movie. On the surface, I'll say that the script definitely sounds more appealing at a high level, despite a few niggling problems. I'm sure the critics would've preferred this movie. But execution really matters with big productions like this and sometimes "big, fun, and dumb" is better than a script that has strong/interesting ideas but botches the execution.
**glances at The Last Jedi with disgust**
If you can't know the actual outcome of both potential paths, and we certainly can't here, then second-guessing what might've been is an empty game of speculation instead of some kind of 20/20 hindsight.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Spak-Spang on January 18, 2020, 09:05:49 PM
It was really stupid to give the trilogy to 2 different creative teams. They should have spent 2 years writing three perfect scripts and connecting tissue then just hired a director to film all three. Hell film them all at once because you know you will make the money back. Then you would have had a true trilogy which honestly there aren’t many true examples of in cinema. Matrix, Back to the Future, Star Wars both trilogies. There are movies with sequels but not trilogies.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Adrock on January 18, 2020, 09:23:03 PM
It wouldn't save Star Wars. But instead of SW being despised it would be more it's finally over now and we got one actual movie out of it.
(https://i.imgur.com/GIgyjLG_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium) Given the behavior of angry Star Wars fans, there’s no universe in which I believe this sentiment from angry Star Wars fans.
Quote
Tor Valum isn't a villain nor a Snoke replacement.
If Tor Valum is a Sith who trains Sith, the Sith aren’t defeated. My understanding is in Duel of the Fates, Kylo Ren just fucks off after being defeated by a Darth Vader vision. Tor Valum being introduced and notably not defeated is bad storytelling in the last installment.
Quote
Shipping Reylo is far worse given that is a creepy abusive relationship. Rey and Finn is the natural choice but that was never going to happen. It also reinforces that time has pass.
I’m not advocating shipping Rey and Poe over Rey and Kylo Ren. I really hated that kiss in Rise of Skywalker. Completely unearned. Why is Rey so horny for patricide? Rey could just, you know, not be shipped at all because it serves no purpose.
Quote
Kylo killing Rey's parents is somewhat necessary as Rey doesn't actually have any motivation to do what she does. She goes somewhere, does things because the writer needs it rather than her needing to do so.
Rey doesn’t need more motivation than doing the right thing especially given her Light Side alignment and the Jedi’s moral superiority we’ve been fed at every turn.
Quote
Blinding Rey is critical as Rey needs to get hurt and given how OP she is it has to hurt a lot to make Kylo as a threat.
Rey ultimately bests Kylo Ren in combat while blind before he does his Force Vampire thing so this doesn’t really stand.
Quote
Kylo isn't redeemed nor should he be given there is no one to do it. The only person who could stop Kylo was Ben. This also prevents Rey winning the fight again. It's a twisted mirror of the throne room scene.
In Duel of the Fates, Kylo Ren gives Force power/energy back to Rey after being overcome with love or something. The implication is he turns from the Dark Side. Personally, Kylo Ren should have died a total villain.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ejamer on January 18, 2020, 11:02:48 PM
Tor Valum isn't a villain nor a Snoke replacement.
If Tor Valum is a Sith who trains Sith, the Sith aren’t defeated. My understanding is in Duel of the Fates, Kylo Ren just fucks off after being defeated by a Darth Vader vision. Tor Valum being introduced and notably not defeated is bad storytelling in the last installment. ...
I disagree that this would be bad storytelling - or at least not particularly worse than a lot of other story points in any of the Star Wars movies. It could be framed in plenty of ways that would make sense. Nothing in this story is about "total destruction of the Sith". If Jedi influence remains and is being reinforced by Rey at the end of the script, then why shouldn't a possible source of Sith influence also remain?
However, I agree with a lot of your other thoughts. Especially that Kylo Ren would've been more interesting if he chose to be an irredeemable villain with enough conviction to never doubt his own choices.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on January 19, 2020, 02:26:21 AM
... One thing for sure, DoF would have been the better movie. ...
Can't agree with any certainty.
It might have been a better movie. On the surface, I'll say that the script definitely sounds more appealing at a high level, despite a few niggling problems. I'm sure the critics would've preferred this movie. But execution really matters with big productions like this and sometimes "big, fun, and dumb" is better than a script that has strong/interesting ideas but botches the execution.
**glances at The Last Jedi with disgust**
If you can't know the actual outcome of both potential paths, and we certainly can't here, then second-guessing what might've been is an empty game of speculation instead of some kind of 20/20 hindsight.
Err I think you got the idea a little backwards. A strong script is fundamental, it's your literal blueprint. TLJ is not a strong script. There is no way in hell any level of production value would have overcome the script, all that does is a flash in a pan. The premise alone gives pause. "Resistance runs out of space gas and a slow speed chase ensures". Canto bite should have made you bulk at the idea TLJ has a good script let alone executed well.
PT had massive production values for the time but had an absurdly weak script. It's boring execution simply made that more apparent.
One massive advantage on DoF has is that it isn't trying fight the last two movies or do "Damage control". It's pragmatic and professional, it plays the cards it was dealt. It throws a couple of jabs at TLJ as even back then Colin thought TLJ was stupid, but that's it. Nobody likes Rose yet it gives her a fair shake she never got. It does a reverse Jar Jar. Fisher dying isn't great but it's a known issue and just about anyone could have fixed that.
DoF doesn't have any glaringly asinine elements. Not having Sheev alone puts it well ahead. It doesn't un vaporise the DS 2. The characters are proactive, coming up with plans instead of following something. They fail not because they are idiots but because the villains were competent.
What we know wouldn't have changed is the environment that it would have made under which was bad enough to make Colin walk. People keep throwing the excuse that JJ didn't have a choice. Bull Fucking ****. He could have walked or not taken the deal at all. He knew ahead of time what the environment was having experienced it. DoF provides additional proof that JJ is a hack if his body of work before RoS hasn't done so.
Given the behavior of angry Star Wars fans, there’s no universe in which I believe this sentiment from angry Star Wars fans.
They made very bad movies. Everybody could see RoS was going to be bad. You would be angry if you were kept being feed ****. Mando while not saving SW proves that the anger isn't something eternal or unfounded and that Solo flopping wasn't just TLJ.
By my count we have maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of a good SW movie in R1. DoF might have gotten you another 1/2 - 2/3. Anytime I go back and watch R1 which is the only I would rewatch I treat it as a short film.
Rey doesn’t need more motivation than doing the right thing especially given her Light Side alignment and the Jedi’s moral superiority we’ve been fed at every turn.
Designated hero does the needful. If that isn't the writer needing her to do something instead of her being self motivated I don't know what is. Rey is a tool, not a character. Whenever the writer hits a wall and JJ hits a lot of walls of his own making, just have Rey literally Force their way through it. RoS so called "Humanisation" doesn't change that, she is still getting handed powers, she is still a tool of the writer.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: ejamer on January 19, 2020, 05:14:56 PM
... DoF doesn't have any glaringly asinine elements. ...
Our viewpoints differ here.
I think it probably would have had fewer asinine elements, but there are still some present and we don't know what might've changed (for better or worse) from the leaked script.
Also, people take this all too seriously.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: Spak-Spang on January 19, 2020, 07:05:29 PM
Oohboy: You are right script is important. Have a direction, trust the creative team and let them complete the project. Jumping teams, not have a 3 movie completed script was stupid.
The one thing I might disagree with you on is the PT (I am assuming PT is the prequel trilogy). I actually think the Prequel trilogy's overall arching story was great and a true trilogy. However, Lucas should have had help writing the movie and the dialog and the pacing. He went at it alone which was foolish. Disney has teams of writers that are collaborating a building their animated empire movies. When was the last Disney animated movie 100% trash? They haven't been, because they take their time. (Pixar is another story I don't know what happened there.) But I would take a remake of the prequel trilogy with good dialog over this new trilogy.
Now, though I really want to know where do you stop Rogue One? Or when do you start it? Since you treat it like a short film.
Title: Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
Post by: oohhboy on January 19, 2020, 10:57:08 PM
... DoF doesn't have any glaringly asinine elements. ...
Our viewpoints differ here.
I think it probably would have had fewer asinine elements, but there are still some present and we don't know what might've changed (for better or worse) from the leaked script.
Also, people take this all too seriously.
DoF script isn't exactly setting off alarms here, it's got issues and obviously adjustments made for Fisher. But it doesn't have any show stoppers out of the gate.
RoS has issues so bad any one of them would have sank it. When a leak came out my response was "This is too stupid to be true". It turned out more stupid it sounded the more true it was.
Oohboy: You are right script is important. Have a direction, trust the creative team and let them complete the project. Jumping teams, not have a 3 movie completed script was stupid.
The one thing I might disagree with you on is the PT (I am assuming PT is the prequel trilogy). I actually think the Prequel trilogy's overall arching story was great and a true trilogy. However, Lucas should have had help writing the movie and the dialog and the pacing. He went at it alone which was foolish. Disney has teams of writers that are collaborating a building their animated empire movies. When was the last Disney animated movie 100% trash? They haven't been, because they take their time. (Pixar is another story I don't know what happened there.) But I would take a remake of the prequel trilogy with good dialog over this new trilogy.
Now, though I really want to know where do you stop Rogue One? Or when do you start it? Since you treat it like a short film.
PT premise is fine on the surface, but the premise isn't a script. The premise being Rise of Sheev, the rise of Anakin and birth of Vadar. It reveals a problem, we didn't need the TPM for the trilogy nor the prequels as a whole as these are things we don't need to know. We didn't need to know who Anakin was to know who Vadar is. Knowing more made Vadar worse off.
The prequels were really written out of tiny snippets of dialogue. TPM only existed because Yoda said "Too old to be trained". Anakin accidentally blows up the tradeship and scraps buzz droids because he is a "Great pilot". Clone wars is well clones wars. Then **** up the ending when you gotta kill Padme but do it way too soon. Establish the Imperial Senate so we can kill it. Entire movies just to fit a couple lines. The earlier premise is almost incidental. The real premise is those lines. Just don't make prequels. They are glorified flashbacks.
Now you say what about R1? R1's premise is go get DS plans. The problem comes in when it gets fixated on a non-plot hole. We didn't need to know who or how or what flaw came about. Which leads us to how I treat R1.
The characterisation is pretty much non-existent and contradictory anyway so you start at around after Jyn gives her bewildering speech as Yavin. The opening scroll is "band of Rebels goes to get DS plans", cut, next scene they are getting on the transport. The key to the movie is R1: Go Get DS Plans. That's pretty much it. You don't really need to re-edit it. Just fudge a little and you're there.
We don't need to know the DS is powered by Kyber Crystals. We don't need to know it has a low power setting. The office politics. We didn't need to know much about who these people are, if anything what came before makes them worse. Their character design, archetypes and what they do is enough. We don't need the first half of the movie.
I suspect this works as well as it does because this portion likely has the least reshoots if any. The attention to detail, the clever call backs, the cohesion, it feels and looks very different to the rest of the movie. You can feel the care taken. It's pretty much the only SW thing Disney has aside from Mando.
It doesn't have any significant bizarre orphaned elements like "I am going to stay here to die", Rebel's/Casian moral grey area, Jyn sudden turn or missing motivation. It doesn't pandering blue milk or have death sentence in 12 systems. No Marvel TV fighting. Cuts Vadar's dad joke and pointless meeting which undermines his appearance later. Like, why in the hell would Vadar have a house on Lava planet??? If you look out the window that is where I got really badly burnt. Cool eh?
