Topic: RetroActive 40: La-Mulana

[Crimm]

This is the talkback for La-Mulana. We'll be doing this as part of the telethon on Dec 2. We hope you can join us, but feel free to post your thoughts here as well.

[ClexYoshi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcJZNRYRIpw

(EDIT: For posterity's sake, it seems like Youtube embeds on this forum are dead. the link to the youtube video will be provided instead.)


I highly suggest any people venturing into the ruins for the first time watch this video to get you started and give you a basic understanding of how La Mulana operates. none of the information within is necessarily hard to figure out, but is a good foundation to get your exploration started on!

[ejamer]

It seems silly you need to watch a "how to get started" video... but it really does help!


The only "problem" is that you give away quite a few of the easy puzzles - and the buzz you get from finding and solving puzzles is what this game is all about. Things only get harder from here on out. 


La-Mulana is a weird kind of game. It's (sort of) an open-world puzzle game that thrives on challenging you to progress when faced with non-obvious puzzles. Read tablets and (literally) take notes about what you've just read, because the obscure hints might apply to puzzles found on that screen, or elsewhere in the level, or in a different level altogether.


Actions taken on one screen might have key effects elsewhere - how will you know? First, by listening. A key item that you find very early (see the video) will make a sound whenever a puzzle has been unlocked. Second, by observing carefully. Sometimes there are clues in the background art that suggest links between screens or locations.


One thing I did note: this game reminded me in some ways of Toki Tori 2 - another open world puzzle game that requires much of the player. Toki Tori 2 is much easier overall, and probably will appeal to a wider audience because of that... but both are absolute gems in my opinion.

[ClexYoshi]

Yeah, I know, but like... the thing is, I've heard stories on this very forum of people missing the Shell Horn or the Grail and needing to restart the game because the remake stupidly allows you to save at any Grail Tablet at any time.

(For the record, the original Freeware game had you insert a Game Master Save cart into your MSX laptop, and then Xelpud would save your game. there was no hot spring, so often times you were restoring your HP by using the Grail to warp to the surface by pausing the game and hitting a number on the numpad to warp, equipping the Game Master cart, asking Xelpud to save the game, and then load the game because it VERY PURPOSEFULLY wouldn't save your current HP value, but rather start you out at full HP when you'd load the game. although the idea of needing to get an item to give you the right to save and having such rigid requirements seems like it's kinda obtuse, it very much also prevented situations where you'd ever save in a spot where you wouldn't be able to venture back out to the surface)

I could have made the walkthrough longer and covered the whole Guidance Gate, but I chose to highlight a good 5 or 6 puzzles to get folks started, and there's plenty of info left for them to discover on their own.

Like... I can see someone like James LOVING things like the infamous Room of Gems and Scales.


I actually never tried Toki Tori 2. I might have to check that game out.

[ejamer]

...
I actually never tried Toki Tori 2. I might have to check that game out.

You should! 

The two games are very different, but always leave me with a similar feeling. Maybe it's being able to try and progress in different areas when you get stuck, or the way that you have to identify where the puzzles are before trying to solve them, or the satisfaction of realizing something was available to you the whole time and just didn't realize it, or the way it's hard to ask for help because there is no set sequence and people approach the game differently. Maybe it's something else entirely. Maybe Azeke can comment, as I know he's a big fan of both games.

Toki Tori 2 is much easier, so maybe it wouldn't draw you in the same way. Only one way to know.

--

Do people speed run La-Mulana? It seems ripe for that kind of play... (says the guy who can only get maybe half-way through the game).

[azeke]

La Mulana is a game dedication to very specific line of Konami's MSX games -- same source from where Goonies 2 and Castlevania comes from.

MSX/Konami legacy dictates basically everything about the game:

-- weird jumping that comes from MSX/PC games where you jump by pressing arrow keys on keyboard instead of dedicated jump button. It is a lineage of jump physics that seems like completely missed Mario and Famicom/NES era of platformer games.

-- bullshit impenetrable secrets that force player to actively look for answers generating a buzz in gaming magazines, conventions or on a schoolyard. Same idea of game design that created many games in 80s like Milon's Secret Castle.

-- insane OST both in quality and in quantity:

-- speaking of quantity -- this game is huge. I read somewhere that Alien Soldier holds a record for number of bosses a game has. Well, one single late level of La-Mulana has more bosses than that entire game.

-- sprawling extremely non-linear interconnected non-Euclidean map. This feature makes most of the walkthroughs for the game basically unusable (especially if you're trying to avoid spoilers) because you can't just look up "where do i need to go now?" because that would require complete audit of your entire inventory and what you did and where you've already been and where you haven't.

Instead of that video would recommend just watching official tutorial from Nigoro themselves:

Or reading official manual:

http://la-mulana.com/download/lmlnpc_manual_en.pdf

^ also has cute drawings and comics!

[pokepal148]

I like climbing up a ladder, reaching the next screen up and there's a bird there that immediately swoops in and knocks you off the screen.

[ClexYoshi]

Yeah, Azeke, I thought about linking that official tutorial, but then I remembered there's a bit where Mulbrook starts making implied masturbation jokes, and I thought maybe people want a gentler and more exhaustive idea of how the first 20 minutes of the game might go for them.


People do still run La Mulana, but they have ways to ground and wall clip all over the place to do a ton of sequence breaking.


If you want the Konami game that La Mulana pulls most of it's DNA from, it's this guy right here:

Also, yes. many of the regular enemies in La Mulana are designed to give more frustrating knockback rather than do crazy damage. Lemeza's life bar is more balanced to be a stamina meter that determines how long he can spend poking around the ruins for answers then anything else. Most of the time, if something is actually going to kill Lemeza, it'll be a boss/Miniboss, a hazard like Water or Lava, or from triggering a trap or the lightning from striking the walls or whatever.

[Evan_B]

I refuse to play this game because of rigged elections.

I'm talking specifically about the lack of Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: The Crystal Bearers' inclusion. It may not be Wiiware, but it's also not WiiUWare.

[ejamer]

Open a "let's play" thread in the forums and see if people will join in?
I don't have time (or interest) now, but would over the holiday break.


But that's a sorry reason to avoid playing a good game that people are hoping to talk about now.   






For people who are starting to play La-Mulana, what challenges are you running into? Is there anything making your early game more difficult than you think it should be?


For me, it was definitely the "mid-air movement" controls. They work well once you are used to the controls, but being unable to control your momentum in some jumps but not others was a big learning curve when I started - probably the hardest initial thing to come to grips with.

[azeke]

Another part of La-Mulana that is identifiable as Konami influence are it's NPCs and how they give you hints and how you interact with them. Depending on conditions and time they have different lines. It's kinda similar to codec companions from Metal Gear.

It's kinda surreal having the same type of achievements of "listen to ALL possible lines from certain character" in both La Mulana and Metal Gear Rising.

Calling codec in MGS games any time anything happens is just as tedious as constantly warping to Xelpud and Mulbruk in hopes that game gives you a new line of dialogue. On my playthrough on PC i only read around 2/3 of all lines:

I have no idea how people do these type of achievements, because they're so easy to screw up and miss one line.

[ClexYoshi]

one of my friends went INSANE trying to plan out the sort of playthrough you need to have to see all their dialogue in a single go through, as some of Xelpud's stuff in particular is tied to an invisible point counter that goes up whenever you collect new items for Lemeza's inventory or hit certain progress markers. He once showed me a nightmareish flowchart of what threshholds you can get dialogue at, and what events will overwrite current dialogue for new dialogue.

It looked about as messy as if you tried to draw a giant map of the ruins.



One thing one quickly learns about La Mulana is that if the developers want you to suffer and learn harsh life lessons, Naramura-san will make it happen. This game is designed both as a completionist's dream and nightmare. Although I don't want to broach the subject yet, I am intently awaiting someone to talk about the Hell Temple experience here.


By the way, if I can find the time to get around to it, would people have any desire to see me stream or record some more La Mulana? it's a tricky thing because a game so based on puzzle solving and getting lolz as the game makes a complete and total buffoon out of you is a HUGE part of the experience.

[azeke]

People are quick to bring up famed difficulty and impenetrable puzzles of La-Mulana but there isn't much discussion about the game's story, atmosphere and inspirations. Obviously it's because not many people got far into it but i would have liked anyone to mention even just an intro which sets up the premise of the game: an extra-dimensional entity that's referred as Mother "fell" on Earth billions years ago. Stuck there, it wants to return and uses her power of creating life hoping these children find a way.

Story even ties the existence of humanity as just a footnote in a grand scope of it's lore. As you keep exploring the dungeon -- each with it's own theme, history and real world mythological inspirations, you will read more lore about the children. And you will have to -- because puzzles might ask you to know names of the Giants for example and where each of them stands.

Story of Giants alone is pretty notable by itself and has a fantastic theme:

[ClexYoshi]

I do love the narrative. on the surface, there's all the self-deprecating humor where everyone seems to think Lemeza is a loser of some sort (especially his father), but the game does hit on a neat narrative. Even if the opening cutscene didn't give away what Azeke wrapped in the spoiler text, there's a ton of different things about La Mulana. each area is designed to take it's architecture and imagery from different parts of the world... from the Celtic crosses that dot the Spring in the Sky, to the Chamber of birth evoking India. They even go all-out Atlantis with the tower of the goddess or just straight-up steampunk with Tower of Ruin. It really contrasts in neat ways with the decided Mayan and central american type of stuff that you first start seeing in the guidance gate and Mausoleum of the Giants.


I think one of the best puzzles that tied into the game's lore  was kinda nerfed for the remake. I understand why because it's a puzzle that required you have knowledge of things from outside the game, but it effectively required the player to have knowledge of the Aztec calender, be able to manually translate the numerals of the La Mulanese alphabet without use of the hand scanner, and then from there figure out that the world ends in 2012, which was another angle this game plays up.

it turns out that the mother was going to wake up in but a few short years anyhow and wipe out humanity anyhow because they hadn't figured out how to get her sorry ass off this rock she's been stuck on, and create another set of children to see if they could figure out how to get the mother back into outer space. there had already been 7 extinction events beforehand, and it uses this to tie in various mythological creatures into the La Mulana mythos.

[ClexYoshi]

Sorry to double post. finally had some time to play the game this weekend between various goings on in my life and the agressive ammount of drawing I've been doing...!

Progress is as follows:

Inventory:
Chain Whip
Knife
Axe

Shuriken
Rolling Shuriken
Flare Gun
Earth Spear
Chakram
Caltrops
Pistol
Buckler
Ankh Jewel (Gate of Guidance)
Ankh Jewel (Mausoleum of the Giants)
Ankh Jewel (Temple of the Sun)
Ankh Jewel (Spring in the Sky)

Hand Scanner
Dragon Bone
Maternity Statue
Pepper
Mini-Doll

Mobile Super X
Waterproof Case
Heatproof Case
Shell Horn
Glove
Holy Grail
Isis' Pendant
Crucifix
Helmet
Grapple Claw
Bronze Mirror
Scalesphere
Hermes' Boots
Ice Cape
Eye of Truth
Plane Model
Spaulder
Fruit of Eden
Anchor
Fairy Clothes


Origin Seal
Birth Seal
Life Seal

Sacred Orb (Guidance Gate)
Sacred Orb (Mausoleum of the Giants)
Sacred Orb (Spring in the Sky)
Sacred Orb (Surface)
Sacred Orb (Tower of Ruin)

Software:

reader.exe
xmailer.exe
yagomap.exe
guild.exe
move.exe
deathv.exe

Bosses defeated: 0


So far I've been going by memory, doing what I can before I open up any of the major stuff that comes after you start defeating bosses. some of this i'm at right now is mostly stuff that requires farming to make happen.

I may make a video on the appropriate ways to farm in this game, as otherwise it can be very time consuming, or you simply just have to wait until very late when you start finding the Miracle.EXE combos.

EDIT: made a little more progress thanks to finally getting a couple of friggin' Key faries. @___@

I'm starting to hit a lot of dead ends without the feather, but there are still a few small things I can get before I'm absolutely FORCED to beat a boss to progress. there's still a couple more items I can snag up with key faeries. I had to take such an AMAZINGLY circuitous path through the ruins to be able to get half of this garbage far 'earlier' than I should have.

EDIT 2: I made a little more push. in game timer says I'm at 6 hours, but It's probably closer to 7 given how bad the RNG was for getting key faeries.It's amazing how I seem to just keep finding stuff to do before I defeat even a single main boss. There's certainly programs I can pick up still. Sadly, Chi You is immune to damage without the Book of the Dead, which requires Ellmac to be defeated, so I may have hit my dead end for real progress.

I really would not suggest playing the path I'm taking through the game unless you're really darned bored or you wanted to get the steam achievemo for all character ending, because the Fairy Clothes and move.exe+deathv.exe does a ot towards increasing your survivability against the hard mode bosses.

[ejamer]

(Quietly disappointed that nobody else wants to post about the game. It's an awesome game for people who like old-school challenges or figuring things out themselves.)


That is one of the things that I love about this game - if you aren't sure what to do next, there are almost always several different ways to look for progress. Sure, eventually you'll be forced to move in a specific direction (beating bosses, for example) but it's rare to find you only have one option for exploration.

[ClexYoshi]

I actually dug up Pixelated Pixies' old thread on La Mulana back when it hit Wiiware in 2012 and kinda look on it with fondness. the first few posts were filled with folks intimidated by the game because Pixies had a hard time wrapping his head around the puzzle design. Poor dude WANTED to like the game, but I just don't think what the developers were going for really jived with 'em.

I kinda view La Mulana in the same light as I do EDF 2017 (heh) where it's a game that sets out to do EXACTLY what it wants, and damn the consequences. Granted, that manifests itself in different ways. with EDF, it's the game's TERRIBLE framerate as a result of having a field of Giant Spiders as far as the eye can see and bug gibs flying every which way, while with La Mulana, it's that it's obtuse in a way that's purposeful and that makes you really feel like the ruins were built to repel would-be intruders. I respect Devs that have the huge, plentiful balls to make the game THEY want and have it come out so laser focused.

Seriously, I've been having trouble putting the game down again since I've started playing it again, and I'm so excited to hear the podcast and community call me a horrible monster for pushing one of my favorite games of all time. : D


EDIT:










I miiiiiiight be able to get the bracer and snapshot.exe if I sat there and farmed for money, but as it stands, I'm probably out of points of progression of any sort without beating Ellmac at least.

that being said, between having 7 Sacred Orbs, the Fairy Clothing, the Spaulder, and Randc.exe+Mekuri.exe combo, I can probably just jump into him with the axe a few times and come out the victor.


I feel like i should quickly explain why this is the case, though.

Bosses normally for the most part, besides being required to beat the final boss, also seal doors that connect an area of the ruin with it's 'backside' equivalent.

Elmac is special though, in that his defeat opens up access to the Twin Labyrinth gas chamber, the door that connects Temple of the Sun and Temple of the Moon's bottom half, and most importantly, opens up a door containing a new NPC named Mulbrook.

Mulbrook, much like Xelpud, will sometimes dispense important information about the ruins. what's more, Mulbrook holds an item that's key to progressing that in the original game, was just in the Temple of the Moon once you solved a puzzle.

Holding the Book of the Dead, you can do damage to Anubis and Chi-you. Chi-You guards the Key to Eternity, which lets you go deeper into the endless corridor and Chamber of Birth, while Anubis guards the Serpent Staff, which allows you to damage Argus, an enemy on the surface. beating Argus nets you the featehr, which lets Lemeza double jump,a nd I've ran into SO MANY SPOTS where Lemeza just... can't solve a puzzle without that second jump. :C between the Feather's double jump and a couple of treasures found in the endless corridor, I'm pretty sure I won't have to defeat a boss agian until I've collected the rest of the weapons, most of the software, and seen all but maybe 2 of the grail points.

[pokepal148]

This was just not a good time for a retroactive of this kind. A lot of people are busy with the Holidays, Odyssey just came out, I fear between those two things a lot of people won't be able to sink the kind of time you need to finish this game, especially since from what I hear it's about a 30 hour game.

[ClexYoshi]

This was just not a good time for a retroactive of this kind. A lot of people are busy with the Holidays, Odyssey just came out, I fear between those two things a lot of people won't be able to sink the kind of time you need to finish this game, especially since from what I hear it's about a 30 hour game.

I'd say closer to 15 if you're not like... endlessly butting your head agaisnt the wall or dying... and really, you shouldn't be dying all tat much unless you're under-prepared for a mini-boss or  you get repeatedly duped by the same sorts of death traps. I think I've died all of about 3 times so far this playthrough.

Still, I do kinda see your point. it's a little easier for me to justify it setting up the Wii U Gamepad on it's charger stand and playing it like that while I do various Web Browsing/art/whatever. I suppose with someone like Jon, they can do some Vita tub time La Mulana and even enjoy the extra features they added like the bestiary.

Other people still I think are just... intimidated. I spoke to one particular person on Discord who specifically told me they're looking forward to the retroactive discussion, but have no desire to take the personal dive into the ruins.

How's your playthrough going, Pokepal?

[ejamer]

This was just not a good time for a retroactive of this kind. A lot of people are busy with the Holidays, Odyssey just came out, I fear between those two things a lot of people won't be able to sink the kind of time you need to finish this game, especially since from what I hear it's about a 30 hour game.

I'd say closer to 15 if you're not like... endlessly butting your head agaisnt the wall or dying... and really, you shouldn't be dying all tat much unless you're under-prepared for a mini-boss or  you get repeatedly duped by the same sorts of death traps. I think I've died all of about 3 times so far this playthrough.

...

Oh, I disagree here.


15 hours is fine if you have some community support and are looking up clues and hints, but I don't think anyone would be able to puzzle their way through the game that quickly the first time through without help. When I restarted the game, I was able to cut hours off my initial experience... and that's only for the first half of the game.


Also, I think most people new to the game will die. Not excessively (once you get the basics of the game down) and not necessarily often if you are being careful... but that ties into the play time. If you are too careful, you lose time by warping up to the hot springs to heal; if you aren't careful enough you lose progress by dying. That's a tightrope each player has to walk when learning the game...  It's also normal to get caught in a situation you aren't prepared for when still learning the game, or to die repeatedly while figuring out how to beat a boss.

[ClexYoshi]

this is true. That's kinda like saying Ultima IV is a 60 hour game when you go into it not understanding how the Virtue system or the spells work.

La Mulana is kinda an 80's gaming mag's wet dream of a game. although there's a clue for everything SOMEWHERE laying around either via background details, tablets, NPC dialogue, or other means, and brute forcing this game on your own is a means of playing the game that I don't think would be very fun.


I remember at some point reading an interview with Takumi Naramura from when the freeware game had been released that explained that he wanted the game to engender a sense of community; of kids on the playground all getting the game, sharing their secrets, maybe one of them has a Famitsu subscription so they know some sort of secret that surprises the rest of the group... they share research notes, not unlike a real excavation and archaeological team.


This comes to life in the form of the crazy Non-linear progression of the game, and how two different people can have relatively similar completion percentages, but have a wildly different inventory from one another! merely talking about the crazy puzzles one another solved and learning from one another is crazy awesome experience!


THAT is why I wanted this retroactive so bad. yes, it's a tight time, and yeah, the genie is out of the bottle for some members of this forum who have played the game before, but I was hoping that by leaving the first little scrap in the form of a video that folks would come onto this forum, share their experience, and piece together the mystery of the ruins together!


Obviously I kinda gave up on that by going nuts and having two big posts on my progress in between the drives to raise funds for child's play before the telethon.

[ejamer]

...
kids on the playground all getting the game, sharing their secrets, maybe one of them has a Famitsu subscription so they know some sort of secret that surprises the rest of the group... they share research notes, not unlike a real excavation and archaeological team.
...
merely talking about the crazy puzzles one another solved and learning from one another is crazy awesome experience!
...

Do people still do this?
I agree - it's an awesome way to play, if you can get a group together who are making progress at the same time. But it feels like the internet has fundamentally changed things.


I'm super old now, so grew up in a time where playground discussion (sharing secrets both real and imagined) was a real thing. So for me, hard games like this really pull me back to that era. But now that the internet acts as a "universal truth" and games have become more and more straightforward, I don't think people expect or look for this type of communal experience.


The last time I remember it happening was probably with the X-Com (original and Terror From the Deep) games on PC, back in the late 90s.

[lolmonade]

What's funny is that I realize I actually did purchase this game a long time ago on Wiiware.  But I let my friend borrow my Wii U since August, so I wouldn't be able to participate in this one even if I wanted to.

[ejamer]

Question for people playing the game:


One thing I've always found a bit annoying the managing the number of weights (little brown cylinders used to trigger switches) you carry. They are too expensive to buy, as you generally need to save money for other weapons and items... so I always end up grinding somewhere to stock on them when needed. Is that the right approach?


The game seems to expect this, and there are several spots where you can easily move in/out of a room with respawning enemies that drop weights immediately in striking distance. One of my favorite places to do this is in the opening area, close to the waterfall where you have 4 birds on screen. It takes just a few seconds to kill 3 out of 4, and then you can refresh the screen and try again.

[azeke]

The most engaging games always immerse you in their world -- through lore, backstory, music, art. For La-Mulana one must appreciate the sheer amount of work done if nothing else (just script alone is gigantic!). But it goes even beyond these means and creates it's own made-up language.

"birth", "life", "death", "origin", "rebirth" all are terms in La-Mulana's made-up languages that the game constantly subtly shows to you leading to several mid-to-late puzzles where you figure out which hieroglyphs in "lamulanese" corresponds to these words.

Even beyond that -- even after you translated and read the hints -- you still need to figure out the text itself. Eventually you will find repeating terms: "wise man", "fool", "courage", they codify a certain thing in La Mulana and you will have to know what they mean. Using a map, reading room names, examining every little detail is crucial to understanding.

Creating it's own vocabulary -- all good games do that to certain extent. When you talk about your experience in these games you might say things like: "i talked to Malon and did a trading quest until i got Roc's feather" or "i played as Lost, got Cricket's Head and several Tears Up pills and killed Ultra Greed " -- sounds like gibberish to people who didn't played these games but to you it might mean a monumental world shattering revelation. Like the one i had when i discovered bronze mirror.

And game is filled with these moments -- pay off to Eden puzzle, Man/Woman quests, mini-bosses, bosses, Xelpud's amazing moment late-game, the ending. Even cheap (if totally predictable) traps are very memorable.

These 2 weeks i've been replaying the game on Steam aiming for both "beat the game in less than 10 hours" and "defeat all bosses with just primary weapon" achievements. I more or less remember the solutions for first half so i could breeze through that -- getting Axe like five minutes in helps a lot. Axe is the only weapon not gated by some kind of seal and/or an ability and you can get it right away if you know where it is. Throughout entire game Axe will be the most useful weapon for bosses because it reaches higher vertically so getting it that early is huge.

Starting from Corridor of Illusion and Chamber of Birth i had to consult wiki because that's where i initially gave up on my first playthrough. I don't remember these solutions because i didn't solve them myself (that and they're extremely obscure).

I have all the passive items and almost all active items --only missing last few that unlock final boss. I will kill Nü Wa and will challenge Dimensional Corridor and it's boss next. My in-game time is at 5:50.

Aside from that i was also watching several playthroughs of the game. The most impressive one was usedpizza's playthrough where he beat the game completely on his own without any hints:

It was fascinating and kinda infuriating seeing him solving puzzles way faster and earlier than intended, some -- by luck and some -- by sheer bruteforcing (the highlight would be balancing the scales puzzle which he solved by randomly placing stones on his third attempt). He's also very capable as gamer and aside from one boss that he got to too early for his own good -- it usually only took him just several tries to kill all bosses.

[ClexYoshi]

The most engaging games always immerse you in their world -- through lore, backstory, music, art. For La-Mulana one must appreciate the sheer amount of work done if nothing else (just script alone is gigantic!). But it goes even beyond these means and creates it's own made-up language.

"birth", "life", "death", "origin", "rebirth" all are terms in La-Mulana's made-up languages that the game constantly subtly shows to you leading to several mid-to-late puzzles where you figure out which hieroglyphs in "lamulanese" corresponds to these words.

Even beyond that -- even after you translated and read the hints -- you still need to figure out the text itself. Eventually you will find repeating terms: "wise man", "fool", "courage", they codify a certain thing in La Mulana and you will have to know what they mean. Using a map, reading room names, examining every little detail is crucial to understanding.

Creating it's own vocabulary -- all good games do that to certain extent. When you talk about your experience in these games you might say things like: "i talked to Malon and did a trading quest until i got Roc's feather" or "i played as Lost, got Cricket's Head and several Tears Up pills and killed Ultra Greed " -- sounds like gibberish to people who didn't played these games but to you it might mean a monumental world shattering revelation. Like the one i had when i discovered bronze mirror.

I never thought about La Mulana in that way beyond the the basic "Origin" "Birth" "Life" "Death" cycle, but you're absolutely right. actually, that's something that's lost in the remake just a bit, as the Djed pillar and MANTRA.exe functioned by having the player actually type out these words that you've transcribed to place the Wedges in the Mother's body... but there really is so much thematic use of language here.


Also, if you look at my screenshot above, I have a file up above where i literally just need the last sacred orb, to do Nu Wa, and to Wedge all the fields and I'm good to go on what could probably be an under 6 hour file if I really tried. I think I stopped because I got pissed at the ammount of RNG on getting up to that last sacred orb without using your lamp charge to get up there in the first place. oh well.

What's funny is that I realize I actually did purchase this game a long time ago on Wiiware.  But I let my friend borrow my Wii U since August, so I wouldn't be able to participate in this one even if I wanted to.

no Steam or Vita or you, Lolmonade?

[azeke]

I think I stopped because I got pissed at the ammount of RNG on getting up to that last sacred orb without using your lamp charge to get up there in the first place. oh well.

You probably know that you're supposed to use this room's mini-boss' own water pillar to reach there but after that you can come back and there will be two flying imps that shoot lasers and you can damage boost up there.

I watched people doing that in their playthroughs and laughed at them thinking "what are these fools doing?" but after like 10 minutes of watching them trying to get hit by imp's laser in a very precise spot so that it pushes them upwards i realized that i TOTALLY did that too myself and got sad.

[lolmonade]

What's funny is that I realize I actually did purchase this game a long time ago on Wiiware.  But I let my friend borrow my Wii U since August, so I wouldn't be able to participate in this one even if I wanted to.

no Steam or Vita or you, Lolmonade?

Have both, but I generally don't double-dip on a game unless I enjoyed it enough to justify spending it on another copy.  I didn't remember disliking La-Mulana, but I've only double-dipped on Rocket League and Stardew Valley in recent memory.

[ejamer]

So I've made it further than ever before, making use of the La-Mulana wiki (http://lamulana-remake.wikia.com/wiki/La-Mulana_Remake_Wiki) for answers when I got stuck.


Some observations:


* Last time playing, I got stuck after exposing the truth about Eden. At that time, it seemed like a BS puzzle to move any further... but now I know that was only because I couldn't find the answer. In reality, it ended up being another moment where I just needed to stop moving and take time to observe my surroundings carefully. One small thing was different, and needed to be found and scanned to unlock the next step. That's not saying there are no moments of BS to be found in the game - there are - but in most cases, after I found the answer I could look back and understand how I should have been able to figure things out. The brute force method, where you just keep pushing ahead and hoping to stumble into a solution, just won't carry you very far in the game.


* Grinding and money remain an issue. I asked before how people get enough weights for triggers. Grinding up by the waterfall remains a good option, but at some point as I made progress it dried up and they won't drop blocks anymore so buying is the only option. I think that I should be using the Item Fairy to force increased drops... but I don't know how to consistently get that fairy to appear (my RNG almost always gives the healing fairy - nice, but rarely what I need). There is a way... I don't think that I have the right software yet, although I think I know where to buy it if I can get some more cash.


* The world of La-Mulana is rich and sprawling and nuanced - maybe too much so. It's complex and borders on more than I can mentally keep track of. This is not a bad thing... but makes the game progressively more difficult the further you go. When puzzles are largely contained to one section of the map then it's not too difficult. But there is so much branching and intertwining and backtracking involved...


* I don't like translating in-game ciphers. So far, there have only been one or two small puzzles requiring this be done, and (I think) limited to the numbers 1 through 9. Guessing this is going to get worse later; I'll probably just look it up if so. But there are a lot of clues about how to do this - from the icons as you enter each section, to the opening sequence where I believe it spells out and translates a lot of content for you (haven't tested this - way too lazy to do so).


* The time estimates discussed above are ridiculous for anyone who doesn't already have the answers to many of the problems in this game - but once you know what to do, you can burn through this game so quickly the second time!

[Evan_B]

If you wanted to engender a sense of community, you probably shouldn't have rigged the voting in your favor.

[ClexYoshi]

So I've made it further than ever before, making use of the La-Mulana wiki (http://lamulana-remake.wikia.com/wiki/La-Mulana_Remake_Wiki) for answers when I got stuck.


Some observations:



* Grinding and money remain an issue. I asked before how people get enough weights for triggers. Grinding up by the waterfall remains a good option, but at some point as I made progress it dried up and they won't drop blocks anymore so buying is the only option. I think that I should be using the Item Fairy to force increased drops... but I don't know how to consistently get that fairy to appear (my RNG almost always gives the healing fairy - nice, but rarely what I need). There is a way... I don't think that I have the right software yet, although I think I know where to buy it if I can get some more cash.

ITEM FARIES! you can gaurentee getting one by loading MIRACLE.EXE + CAPSTAR.EXE, or you can note the patterns of stars that appear when you first summon a faerie. if you get off the screen before the fairy comes in, you can reset the fairy point spawn. Item fairy has 4 stars moving in clockwise and counter clockwise patterns.

there's a screen in the chamber of extinction, 1 up and one left from the grail point where there's a series of 4 boxes that respawn when you go off screen. while under the effects of an item fairy, everything you destroy gushes money, and you farm money for that, and thus have money to buy weights, items, programs, or whatever you need!

This method can also be used to get keyfaries and unlock their secrets.


I'm just about at the endgame myself. I really have a couple of bosses to wrap up, the Djed Pillar, The Magatama, and Mantra.exe left to claim before I'm ready to kill bosses, wedge fields, get medicine, kill mother.

I feel NOW is the time to broach the subject on Hell Temple.


it's... something you won't experience on Wiiware because Nicalis never bothered publishing the DLC, but Hell temple was a part of the original game, as well as the Steam and Vita releases internationally.

For the unititiated, Hell Temple is kinda Takumi Naramura's take on those insane fever dream rumors you'd hear on the playground... do some arbitrary task like pushing a truck with the Strengh TM or getting 100 Kills on Cruel Melee to unlock Toad and Sonic in SSBM or the trick to reviving General Leo. It also is Naramura's way to take the piss out of completionists and teach them their folly by giving them a secret optional area that may actually be considered a form of torture in certain parts of Southeast Asia.

Accessing Hell Temple requires a series of complete nonsense actions, including bringing key fairies to nonsense places after certian story beats have been hit, plunging exactly 9 screens down into a seemingly bottomless pit of lava, and going into such odd and weird secret areas of the game to get the next breadcrumb in accessing this place...

... only to be met with when you get there a gauntlet of platforming challenges, crazy sub-weapon trick-shots, and infuriating puzzles that they actually feel like the developer might actually be punishing you for past misdeeds.

often times you find yourself jumping onto moving platforms that are smaller than lemeza, over expanses of pits while some fo the game's most dangerous and bullet spammy enemies are floating about.

... wait, Pits? there weren't any pits in the main game! besides maybe pools of water and lava. See, falling into the holes in Hell Temple bring Lemeza to a series of rooms labeled "LAND OF HELL". these often consist of a gauntlet of enemies or mini-bosses that die easy enough, give you a ton of XP orbs, and then a ladder spawns and puts you several rooms back...

... oh no!

see, there's no grail point in hell temple, and the puzzles and rooms kinda... reset when you leave. Hell Temple isn't designed to kill Lemeza, but rather keeps pushing the player back, and feeds them JUST enough resources to keep them going. when leaving means you have to do everything in this place again, it kinda keeps you playing these crazy platforming sections over and over and over, because **** having to go back.

Eventually, you can open one shortcut, but for the most part, Hell Temple is truly meant to feel like you are slowly burning alive. it EARNS it's name, unlike a certain Cave Story area that's just hard and filled with lots of RNG.


But... moreover, I'm curious. Has anyone in the thread gotten to enjoy the Hell Temple experience? I tried to be pretty vague about specific challenges therein, but I wanted to hear any stories from would-be challengers of this super optional area among the community?

[azeke]

I warned about this trap/glitch in my thread 4 years ago, but might as well say it again.

WiiWare has a unique trap that was since patched out on other versions. When you arrive at this screen:



doing switches in "wrong" order (top first, bottom second) will block off small area of the level from you.

It can be circumvented somewhat except for the fact that this part of the level contains this level's warp point. Not being able to warp directly to this level isn't even a problem -- the problem is that you need to scan that warp point or else final boss won't even appear.

There is a way to bypass it using an extremely hidden trick wall (back then i had to look all over the internet and translate from japanese to know about it). If you throw 7-10 grenades at a wall in other level that is on the right from the ice area on screenshot (and there is no indication that you're doing anything special at all, no "dink" or "crumble" sound effects) it opens a super secret warp to that closed off area.

From what i remember this warp doesn't exist in later versions, it is only in WiiWare version to address this specific trap.

* Grinding and money remain an issue. I asked before how people get enough weights for triggers.

I honestly don't understand this.

Eden level DOES require a lot of weight simply to traverse yes, but if you're just wandering in it and didn't do any progress and wasted a lot of weights just going left and right -- simply don't save. Be mindful about your last save/quick save point and if needed -- just redo the part where you wasted weights/money/in-game time if you think you can do it more efficiently and if it will save you the trouble.

Money weren't a big problem for me. The only thing you have to buy on regular are weights -- everything else simply drops from enemies (even grenades). And if you need money -- just grind them with miracle.exe+capstar.exe that guarantees you plentiful drops, you can even do it while going somewhere else.

* The time estimates discussed above are ridiculous for anyone who doesn't already have the answers to many of the problems in this game - but once you know what to do, you can burn through this game so quickly the second time!

My first playthrough on WiiWare took like 80 hours, in-game time on file was 37+ hours.
Second playthrough on Steam i made it in 15+ hours on save file which probably means i actually spent double of that.
Third playthrough that i completed several days ago i did in 7+ hours on file, real time should be 3 times of that because this time around i was actually trying to save time and be efficient for achievement for completing the game in less than 10 hours.

Also got an achievement for beating all bosses only with primary weapon (so no ninja stars, no chakram, can't even use caltrops to harm yourself for i-frames!). It's easier than it sounds. One software combination doubles your damage making you overpowered and another secret item halves your damage taken which allowed me to simply facetank late-game bosses even the ones that do constant rolling damage on contact and ignore invincibility frames.

Hell Temple

Beat it back then. Don't remember much about it's puzzles -- i think i found them too easy or i was i looking them up right away...

Spike room was a highlight. The room with small platforms after it is actually much easier, but i got there so rarely i was too nervous and usually fell down. Eventually i fed up with it and found another similar room with small platforms in the main game and spent time there doing nothing but train my jumps in that environment -- and that allowed me to finally made the jumps in second room for real.

[ejamer]

Yeah - I buy software whenever it's available, but (other than using Holy Grail to warp to the back side of locations) don't really use it or know what the combinations are.

Sounds like that's part of where I'm going wrong... although don't you have to be pretty far into the game to get the miracle.exe software to summon specific fairies anyway? Maybe (almost certainly) I just did things in an inefficient order.

As to why I waste so many weights... ehh... I'm not very good at video games, and spend far more time walking around looking at stuff than I should. Having never finished the game before - not even close - this is pretty normal for me.




Edit: Oh yeah, I see what you mean about money not being a problem with the right technique. Once you know how to get an Item Fairy, it's easy to get money and that one spot gives out TONS of cash every run you make.

[ejamer]

What version of La-Mulana are you guys actually playing?
I'm playing a digital copy of the Vita version, La-Mulana EX, which is slightly different from the WiiWare version.

Some of the puzzles and dialog in this later release seem to be cleaned up. It most cases, this is making the game a bit easier. There is also the option to roll-back hard mode if you trigger it accidentally or have regrets afterwards - something that wasn't available on WiiWare. For most purposes, either version is fine - but Azeke's warning above about a potential WiiWare bug is noteworthy...

The first time I played La-Mulana on WiiWare, I triggered hard mode and thought "well, I guess I'll just have to get better and push through". That was the wrong choice. Hard mode is much more difficult than normal, and it's much better for new players to revert to an old save to avoid activating it.


Silly side-note: got email notification that my Vita physical copy from Limited Run Games was just mailed.
Very excited about that!


(Sorry for double post.)

[ClexYoshi]

I've been playing this on wiiware, although I do have the steam release.

I kinda thought about playing the freeware original for this for shits and giggles, but you have to fix several comparability issues with Win10.

I... feel kinda bad after watching that stream James did. he really, REALLY got mega pissed at the game. granted, he was playing the game in a way that I highly suggested against, but I think just lemeza's movement and basic things like combat and the fact that enemies are more mobile than Lemeza generally is was getting to him.

he lost his **** trying to get the surface sacred orb without the feather. that's not even the worst instance of tough platforming. I usually get hung up on doing things like trying to get to the chain whip or any given part of the Hell temple platforming, or the room where you fight Ba.




I love La Mulana, but i have to accept that it's a very niche game for a very niche crowd.

[ejamer]

Even though I'm thrilled about the game and will be reasonably close to finishing it (for this first time!) by the time the retroactive discussion happens, I feel like I'm in the minority.


Seems like most people aren't playing, or aren't really enjoying the game. The appeal is niche, I get that. But it's a shame there are so few people that seem to fall in love with the mix of very old school platforming and this huge, deep, interconnected "Metroidvania" world. It's easy to get stuck at points, but with so many different places to make progress it only becomes frustrating if you are fixated on one specific thing - usually something you probably aren't ready for.


Worth noting that as you get further and further into the game, the sense of empowerment is substantial. Moving through sections that might have been troublesome before suddenly becomes simple. Battling enemies is rarely a concern. You feel like you're on top of the world... until starting to explore the next section and finding difficult new challenges that you weren't prepared for.

[ClexYoshi]

I think the Retroactive discussion is gonna be hella interesting. Gui just made a post that he's saying La Mulana is the best game he's played in a LONG time, but is bashing his head against Sakit and hating bosses.

James seems to lament everything because he cannot get a grip on how lemeza controls, the purposeful obtuse nature of the game, and seems to repeatedly fall for the same traps over and over and over and over agian... but he really had fun fighting Sakit and Amphisbaena, but then got frustrated at Ellmac... he fought all 3 of these bosses in a VERY underpowered stage. He also tried getting the surface sacred orb without the feather, which i think is kinda foolish. Granted, the feather doesn't automatically negate the vultures, which I think was the real reason he got screamingly angry and called the game bad...

EDIT:

https://twitter.com/NWR_James/status/936763679391059968
WELP

[ejamer]

...
EDIT:

https://twitter.com/NWR_James/status/936763679391059968
WELP

For what it's worth, I also think that boss is BS - definitely moreso than the other bosses that I've faced.


The idea, from a visual stand-point at least, to be fighting this massive sea creature while plummeting down a river is cool... but the way you have to attack him is just a huge pain in the ass, and his attacks are really hard to avoid. In the end, it just wasn't a fun battle.


Pretty sure I ended up using bullets for a quick (and expensive) way past him during the early game, scoring a few additional hits using the axe. Maybe there is a better way to do it. I wasn't willing to replay the boss enough to figure it out.


It's a shame people doing the retroactive didn't comment in this thread. Might've been able to get some tips or suggestions about spots they found particularly frustrating.

[ClexYoshi]

From what I gather, Ejamer, they all played the game within the final week before the retroactive. a big reason I put out that video as soon as I did was to show them that I was willing to help.


As for my Bahamut strat? a pretty safe way to fight him is to try and get itn additional hits with flares, but my biggest suggestion would probably be to use the key fairy to get RANDC.EXE by using the key fairy on the shop on the way up to Bahamut, and to use the feather or a very percise jump to get MEKURI.EXE from the tent that's below the waterfall cliff hidden in a wall, given that the Axe can at least shave off decently big hunks of health in that situation.

Of course, if you have the feather, you could go about using a Key fairy to open the gate of time in Chamber of extinction (on the screen just right of the grail tablet), go through there to acquire LAMULANA.EXE, then use the Gate of Time's masoleum to break open the shortcut to tower of the goddess, and proceed to not only go about exploring that area, but also you could go to Graveyard of the giants through the top of the Tower of the goddess, and then hit up the part of the Chamber of Birth that has the Woman State. Get the Woman Statue to turn into the Maternity Statue in the Temple of the Sun, use THAT to get the Philosopher's ocarina by falling asleep in front of a mural of a vagina, and then take that back to the Tower of the Goddess and attempt to save scum and brute force the room of Gems and Scales (or go through the craziness to actually translate ancient La Mulanese and read all the tablets referring to the weight of souls, and what stones reprisent souls) to get the flail. you could also then use a key fairy to get the spaulder, get to the graveyard of the giants for the Gauntlet, and solve the puzzle of eden to get to Gate of Illusion and thus to the shop that sells MOVE.EXE and...


at that point, shave Bahamut's HP down in a matter of 3-5 cycles thanks to the insane damage output of spamming mace with LAMULANA.EXE+MOVE.EXE

[ejamer]

Yeah, I still like my bullets approach better.   
First time I beat Bahamut was using just the normal whip and flares. Wasn't a lot of fun though. This run through was much easier with axe+gun.

It's funny how much easier some bosses become if you are properly equipped. Elmac seemed hard the first time I faced him - but after you get the second-level shield that will repel his shots (not hard to do, but you have to put off the battle for quite a while as you explore and get further into the game) he is a cakewalk. Getting the axe or chain whip also helps to make a big difference with a bunch of the bosses, since your initial damage output is quite pitiful.


Sad to report I hit a roadblock (ie: no time to play) over the weekend so didn't make much progress. Still aiming to take down Tiamat very soon though...  which I assume puts me pretty close to the end.

Enjoyed having this retroactive (even though I won't be able to listen until the audio gets released) giving some extra incentive to revisit this game. It's been a blast!

[ClexYoshi]

well, the audio is released, and on the telethon page/out in the Podcast feed!

Tiamat beaten means you have access to something that sadly didn't get brought up in the retro-active... but La Mulana has an elaborate Chozo Artifact-style end game quest, and it's got an insane puzzle to it, because that's how this game rolls.


Once you've acquired the Djed Pillar and MANTRA.EXE, you can get mantras that Lemeza can shoot using the Djed Pillar (fun fact; in the Freeware version you had to just straight up type the Mantras while the Djed Pillar was in your inventory!) Each mantra is tied to a certain field's front and back sides. the trick to finding WHERE to use the Mantras though has to do with several compass-like objects that appear as background objects throughout the game.

effectively, the idea is that you find the compass on the front side of an area, and by applying a looping 4x5 grid over the map of the front and back side, follow the compass' direction on the opposite field to a room where you can use the mantra and activate the wedge. You find out where the mantras are by going to temple of the sun in the spot you got the talisman

it's worth noting though that the Wiiware version actually has a mistake in it where the part of the Wedge side-quest for the Tower of ruin was placed in the wrong room, and it's a room adjacent to where the ACTUAL solution of the puzzle should be.


Also, it's worth noting that if Tiamat was your last boss, then you might have lost a holy grail point, because the Shrine of the mother kinda... significantly changes. there's a (VERY inconciquential) program that can be missed thanks to that change. don't worry, the program just combines with MIRACLE.EXE to summon weapon fairy at fairy points.

[Yoshidious]

From what I gather, Ejamer, they all played the game within the final week before the retroactive. a big reason I put out that video as soon as I did was to show them that I was willing to help.

I started playing pretty soon after the poll ended, and I avoided repeating the mistakes I made when I first played the game in 2012, so I got off to a (mostly) smooth start. The biggest impediment to me getting further in the game was simply getting enough time in front of the TV with the PAL Wii. I very much doubt I'll be able to finish the game before I feel compelled to disconnect the PAL Wii, but I do want to see plenty more of La-Mulana before that time comes. 

[ejamer]

well, the audio is released, and on the telethon page/out in the Podcast feed!
...

Just listened to the retroactive portion of the telethon. Thanks for doing it, guys - really enjoyed listening!


James sounded like he regretted the entire process. Of course, it also sounded like he got absolutely fixated on doing things he wasn't really ready for. That's always the worst moment of La-Mulana (for me at least), when your options start running out and you are forced to do a difficult task to progress further.


Some of the others seemed to enjoy it well enough though. And of course I love hearing that people might continue playing beyond what they need to.


Didn't sound like anyone made deep progress into the game (which is totally understandable). What did surprise me is that it sounded like the RFN crew weren't working on making progress together. Although referencing the La-Mulana wiki online to find answers and continue making forward progress helps an awful lot, it's not as much fun as talking about it in person.

[azeke]

...infamous mantras puzzle...

can be "solved" in 15 minutes by simply running around and shouting mantras eveywhere.

The only obstacle is lamia puzzle that hides one mantra chant from you.

Usually i don't even bother even trying to make sense of all that cross-compass/forward-heel business -- it is MUCH easier to just make a tour around all rooms shouting mantras. Also you can use logic and exclude like 70% of the rooms on the maps where there is simply no room for wedge to appear.

According to development blog they're rethinking puzzle structure to make them more accessible and will ensure you can't bruteforce mantra-style puzzles anymore.

[ClexYoshi]

I started playing pretty soon after the poll ended, and I avoided repeating the mistakes I made when I first played the game in 2012, so I got off to a (mostly) smooth start. The biggest impediment to me getting further in the game was simply getting enough time in front of the TV with the PAL Wii. I very much doubt I'll be able to finish the game before I feel compelled to disconnect the PAL Wii, but I do want to see plenty more of La-Mulana before that time comes.

That warms my heart to hear. Honestly, if I could have gotten to you about that properly, I would have HIGHLY suggested you perform a double-dip on your Wii U for use of the gamepad, or the Vita version if you had that laying around.

My current hope is that Gui is too addicted and ends up going against his plan of not finishing and instead opts for taking it the whole way after getting invested enough, maybe rolling back the save. it's honestly quick to make progress again if puzzle solutions are fresh in your mind. Both Azeke and myself have runs of this game that are under 10 hours of in-game playtime. it's a surprisingly replayable game for one so leveraged on brain teasers, y'know?

I'm still glad there was more enjoyment among the podcast than not. I honestly got a little worried when James was just... flamingly angry about things.

[ejamer]

I was also happy to hear Gui enjoyed the game - although fell into the same trap of activating hard mode accidentally my first play through.


Initially I said to myself: "Self, you can do it - just man up and push through on hard mode."  After a few hours I realized that (for your first time through the game) that's just not worth it.  Restarting from an old save if you have one isn't a bad idea, even if it means losing progress.


I strongly agree with ClexYoshi that this game is very replayable. The best part is that it only takes a fraction of the time you to remember/figure out weird puzzles the second time through, since you aren't burning so much time learning about the game world.

[ejamer]

Is anyone else still playing?


I've unlocked the Palenque and Tiamat battles now, and am getting ready to for those battles. My inventory is almost completely filled at this point (only a couple of empty spaces remaining) and it feels like the game is rapidly coming to a close.


The lore has become much stronger and more coherent close to the end, which is interesting. For much of the game you pick up little bits of information here and there, but it doesn't really come together until you are quite deep into the game. I suspect a lot of details will have been missed or misunderstood unless I play through again in the future.


---


I'd be interested to hear what areas people did/didn't enjoy playing through. They are so different, both in theme and what they demand of players, that some end up leaving a much stronger impression than others.


Having just gone through the Dimensional Corridor, it ranks highly for me. Not a lot of puzzles, but a lot of fun to play through. Endless Corridor was also very cool - at least, after you can move deeper into that area; at first blush there isn't much going on there.


I also think that Gate of Guidance does a very good job trying to teach you how the game works. It gives puzzles on one screen and on different screens, encourages you to read all of the clues, has hidden passages and false walls, and gives hints by looking at the stage graphics/background. Some of those skills may be forgotten as you play, but all will be necessary for making progress in different stages.


The stage I liked least is easy: Chamber of Birth just didn't do it for me. I liked very little of that stage, and even though the theme was interesting the puzzles and challenges weren't.

[Yoshidious]

That warms my heart to hear. Honestly, if I could have gotten to you about that properly, I would have HIGHLY suggested you perform a double-dip on your Wii U for use of the gamepad, or the Vita version if you had that laying around.

There's no doubt in my mind that my experience would have benefited greatly from portable or off-TV play, and not just for the simple practicality of getting in more playtime before the telethon. With this kind of game, I find it helpful to play in a very concentrated time period, as this significantly enhances my retention and proper contextualisation of in-game information. This is especially true for La-Mulana due to the cryptic or oblique nature of many of its puzzles and clues.

With this in mind, I did consider purchasing the game through my PAL Wii U in order to essentially buy myself more play time through the proto-tabletop mode offered by the Wii U Gamepad. Ultimately though, I was put off by the fact that PAL Wii U systems get stuck in 50hz when running in Wii mode through a non-HDMI connection, which my Wii U now does due to other systems claiming the HDMI slot. Here's a Eurogamer article from the early days of Wii U detailing the issue, which I confirmed does still apply to this day:

www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-wii-u-backwards-compatibility-analysis

What's not clear from this article is how the TV output being 50hz by default would have affected the display streamed to the Wii U Gamepad, which after all is what I was primarily interested in. Even so, this complication was enough for me to bypass the double dip and just try to make the best of the situation I already had in place. Playing on Vita probably would have been the ideal option, but I never have pulled the trigger on that system despite being interested for a number of years.

[ClexYoshi]

ouch. yeah, that eats. had no clue about the weirdo 50Hz situation there.

[ejamer]

...
I've unlocked the Palenque and Tiamat battles now, and am getting ready to for those battles.
...

All guardians down!


Finding out what the software combination was to increase damage from my Axe was crucial to beating Tiamat (given my general lack of skill or tactics for the battle), but Palenque was maybe one of the easiest bosses in the game.


Now I just have to figure out what to do next.  There are a bunch of clues left to decipher, many of which are already recorded in my laptop, and a couple of areas I haven't finished off (Chamber of Extinction and Tower of Ruin).

[ClexYoshi]

...
I've unlocked the Palenque and Tiamat battles now, and am getting ready to for those battles.
...

All guardians down!


Finding out what the software combination was to increase damage from my Axe was crucial to beating Tiamat (given my general lack of skill or tactics for the battle), but Palenque was maybe one of the easiest bosses in the game.


Now I just have to figure out what to do next.  There are a bunch of clues left to decipher, many of which are already recorded in my laptop, and a couple of areas I haven't finished off (Chamber of Extinction and Tower of Ruin).

ah, yes, good.

Honestly? I'd take Azeke's advice on the wedges.

Also, although this isn't important to beating the game at all, There IS an item you permanently lose access to now that all the bosses are defeated. it's literally just a piece of software that combines with MIRACLE.EXE to make the weapon fairy come 100% of the time when you touch a fairy point.

If you haven't been back to the Shrine of the Mother, you may want to do that, since you have to reclaim the Grail Point there.

[ejamer]

Pretty sure I've got all the software - so not worried about that.

Got through the wedges pretty easily. Spent some time trying to figure out how the compasses work, but didn't quite there there. Decided it was faster and easier to just run through rooms spamming the mantras until all wedges popped. The clues helped a lot for getting through this quickly.

Got to the True Shrine of the Mother and was a bit confused at first. Thought I had to do something to remove the tentacles, but then realized they were all supposed to be there. Quickly got to the final boss, but after four or five attempts haven't been able to win that fight yet.  Feels like I'm getting close though - she was spamming boss moves, but I ran out of useful sub-weapons (flares) after she got Tiamat's attack pattern and ended up dying.


Is there like a Metroid ending or something to this game?  Mulbruk told me there is an exit from her room, so I strongly suspect that I need to go back there after beating the boss... (Don't actually tell me.  With any luck, I'll have actually finishing this crazy game over the weekend. Really looking forward to it.)

[ejamer]

Wasn't a weekend finish, as gaming time was in short supply... but managed to finish off La-Mulana yesterday before bed. Total playing time was roughly 26 hours, which seems ok for the first time through the game.

Ending sequence was very decent. I liked how the levels changed as you were running through to simulate collapsing ruins, also altering the paths you were able to take (mostly in a helpful way except for one point close to the Temple of the Sun entrance where I almost got crushed by a huge block of falling debris). Glad I had read the messages from Mulbruk and remembered her talking about an exit - would've been frustrated if I had to go through the entire boss battle a second time.

My only regret? I started a new game afterwards, thinking it might be a good way to lower my total playtime with the knowledge/experience I've got now. Then I accidentally saved over the "just before the final boss" save. The only proof I've got of my progress is the PSN trophy, and it looks like I'm not going to be going back in to try and unlock any other trophies for a while. Oops.

Anyway, still love the game. Yes, it's got some moments of obscure or punitive BS... but it's also got a lot of fun exploration and clever ideas. It's also one of those games that you can gain a certain type of mastery over, which feels rewarding and empowering in a second run-through (even if the first run isn't as enjoyable). Super glad there was a retroactive that encouraged me to go back and spend more time with the game.

[azeke]

Congrats on completing La-Mulana!

Don't do Hell Temple!

[ejamer]

Congrats on completing La-Mulana!

Don't do Hell Temple!

I was going to do the Hell temple, but my save file was lost. That's the only reason I'm skipping it.


(Hint: That's NOT the only reason I'm skipping it... although I might've tried the first room or two if I didn't accidentally lose my save. I'm content with just beating the game for now.)
 

[azeke]

So. I discovered that there is Randomizer tool for La-Mulana yesterday...



Yeah, it's insane.

Freebie chests that previously had just maps and i just skipped can suddenly have things like Dimensional Key of Pochette Key (why are these in Gate of Guidance lol):



Items are shuffled around not only in the chests but also in the shops, i bought Flailed whip in the shop in Gate of Guidance.

That's super neat.

Too bad i can't find reader so i can't teleport even if i did found holy grail.

[ejamer]

Randomizer is neat... but isn't there a high possibility of making the game impossible this way?  Or is it not truly random, so you'll be assured to get everything you need in the chests available?

[ClexYoshi]

As someone who JUST got into Link to the Past Randomizer... This is something I'm interested in, but like... not now. This does seem like it's a fun way to replay, if only they keep Glyph Reader, Hand Scanner, and the grail nice and early because of how vital those are to completion and... having any sort of good time at all. Still, early game Flail and Fairy Clothes is pretty nice, Azeke!

[azeke]

Randomizer ensures that game is still completable because it checks every seed during a rather lengthy shuffling process.

Also you can set up Holy Grail, Hand Scanner available from the start among many other options:



You can also set up Hard mode from the start, and many other features: like activating warp points by just walking by (no need to scan). It's basically a game "trainer" as well.

[ejamer]

Oh wow, that's pretty awesome. 


Guessing you'd want to be pretty familiar with the game before playing this way, otherwise it would be hard to know what different items are used for. However, this would make the game a really interesting challenge. Some parts could be extra challenging if the life jewels that extend heath are randomly put in late-game areas. Of course, you could be grabbing more powerful weapons and tools early on if that's the case...


Side note:  My physical copy of La-Mulana (Vita) arrived last night. Pretty awesome, but I've wrapped it for Christmas so won't get to open right away.

[ClexYoshi]

yeah, that's good news. I think the Link to the Past Randomizer could use one or two of those options. as is, the only item you can set up to be in a set position in that is the regular sword.

Still, yeah, you'd have to have knowledge of all the money chests at the very least, as I imagine items can get shuffled among those as well. It SOUNDS like it'd be a really fun time gien that the game's open-ended structure probably supports it way better than even LTTP does.

[pokepal148]

Super mega bump.

I picked this up on Vita and I've been running through it. This is a game that was born to be played on a portable and while I try to avoid saying "This game needs to be on Switch" because well every game needs to be on switch... This game needs to be on Switch.

Portable La Mulana is one hell of a drug.