Topic: Rate the last TV show you've seen

[Plugabugz]

If Arrow is going to have Merlyn and Thea sparring, then they really have to do a better job of hiding the obvious stunt double in place of Thea's actress for those scenes.

[Spak-Spang]

You know, I guess I just don't care.  I watch to enjoy the show.  I don't care if I notice the stunt doubles or not.  I will say the season isn't as strong as season 2, but it is fun.  They are trying to build the world and some of the things are working, and some of it not so much.  Thea being able to fight so quickly isn't working for me.  I really hate how television makes it seem easy to become a master anything.  Even if she studied night and day for an entire year she would not be that good. 

That said, you obviously have to accelerate training and just accept that, so you can move forward with the story.  Though, the funny thing is, they are showing what I am saying with Laurel because she keeps getting her butt handed to her.  I just hope they actually give her the real "meta-human" Canary Cry eventually, and not just some toy device.  I don't care how they give it to her, but Meta-humans exist in that universe, and I want my Black Canary to be accurate. 

[Khushrenada]

I've never noticed a stunt double before so that illusion has held up for me.

I will say that I noticed myself laughing a lot more in the latest episode of Arrow and not at any bits of comedy they've put in but just at some of the absolute ridiculousness of things.

The biggest problem with Arrow season 3 is execution. The show actually has a lot of really interesting plotlines and material to work with but it is failing in it's delivery of the material. Either it is messing up in the set-up of situations or when it does a good job of set-up and raising the stakes, it then stumbles on the pay-off.

I'm wondering if this is a result of the executive producers being more focused on getting The Flash series going and backing off from Arrow and letting others manage it. If so, I now worry if The Flash will end up having these same problems next year with the Supergirl series premiering under the same producer team.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Arrow has failed this season.

If I wasn't so invested, I would just put aside Arrow S3 till it's over and only watch The Flash for now.

Thea's training. Oliver's survival and recovery, his fight with Ra's, the fact that Chief Lance will call out Roy with the quickness, but maintain "plausible deniability" with Oliver/Arrow, Diggle ops to stay at base of operations and let Laurel of all people go out on patrol in his place during Ollie's absence.... it's all so stupid.

Not to mention Ollie returning on Live TV, yet not wanting Ra's to find out he is alive.... but wanting time to train with Merlyn so that he can defeat Ra's....
if Merlyn was that good, why wouldn't he just challenge Ra's himself? oh yeah, he's smart enough to send dumbass Ollie in his place... let him make it his fight.

Season 3 is suffering from the Glau effect, but I hope it recovers soon, because this season so far has been garbage. easily trounced by the likes of Agents of SHIELD, The Flash and Gotham (in that order). That is a mighty fall from grace at the top of the lot. But there was a lot less competition last season (s2 was excellent up until the last 3 eps.)

[Stratos]

Agree on your Arrow thoughts, though we are behind a few episodes. It petered out when we started Agents of Shield and we have not felt motivated to return yet. Those last three from last season could have been better if they had given up on the whole "flash backs" and then never looked back. It was great first season and for the first half of the second season but now it is just a silly excuse at padding and staying to true to "the formula" the first two seasons setup.


Gotham is great and we will get rolling on Walking Dead soon. We'll finish the season but that last death in December really put a bad taste in our mouths for the series. Too much build up that first half and way too little pay-off for the amount of development and time spent on it. I thought this season was supposed to be a "back to the basics we loved" for the series? When Game of Thrones starts up we may just ditch both Arrow and TWD. Good time for me to get my wife into Flash.

[Spak-Spang]

Arrow has failed this season.

If I wasn't so invested, I would just put aside Arrow S3 till it's over and only watch The Flash for now.

Thea's training. Oliver's survival and recovery, his fight with Ra's, the fact that Chief Lance will call out Roy with the quickness, but maintain "plausible deniability" with Oliver/Arrow, Diggle ops to stay at base of operations and let Laurel of all people go out on patrol in his place during Ollie's absence.... it's all so stupid.

Not to mention Ollie returning on Live TV, yet not wanting Ra's to find out he is alive.... but wanting time to train with Merlyn so that he can defeat Ra's....
if Merlyn was that good, why wouldn't he just challenge Ra's himself? oh yeah, he's smart enough to send dumbass Ollie in his place... let him make it his fight.

Season 3 is suffering from the Glau effect, but I hope it recovers soon, because this season so far has been garbage. easily trounced by the likes of Agents of SHIELD, The Flash and Gotham (in that order). That is a mighty fall from grace at the top of the lot. But there was a lot less competition last season (s2 was excellent up until the last 3 eps.)

I will agree they  have made some missteps.  However, I will say you are being little hard on the show.

1)  I don't think Ollie was on national TV.  The Glades had been cleared of police I think it was probably cleared of media as well.  He was rallying the people.  However, the other side is that Ollie could just assume the League would already find out about him...after all training to be a master only takes like less than a year anyway...look at Thea.

(Thea is the biggest misstep I see this season.  I know why they are doing it...but it just looks stupid.)

2)Laurel is stubborn and was going to go out there anyway.  Should Diggle have gone instead or with the team...but perhaps Laurel didn't know how to properly use the system to help on the backend.  At any rate they needed to get her into the action because it is destiny to get her in the action.  Brick was a minor enough villain to do it with.

(What I don't truly understand is the Dark Archers motives.  I know he lies all the time and can't be trusted, and I actually liked his tragic backstory, however, the whole idea of forcing the Arrow to go after Raj Al Ghul was insanely stupid.  Now Thea, him, and Ollie are in the cross hairs...but really it goes back to just him.)

But my biggest complaint I have is Ollie should have come back to life from the Lazurus Pit.  I know they like to keep the Supernatural and Super Hero stuff out of Arrow, but if you bring a character like Raj Al Ghul, you should bring all of him.  How cool would it have been to just jump a couple of months.  Have Black Canary and Arsenal with the Atom protecting the city...and Ollie comes back crazy from the Pit and a villain.  Only to find out through flashbacks that his mind isn't entirely gone, but made a deal with Raj Al Ghul after his resurrection...to kill the Dark Arrow.

His team goes against him instead of agreeing, and he is pulled back into the good side.  That would have been an epic season 3.

[Ceric]

Yeah

[Plugabugz]

All of the women on Arrow (the primary ones at least) are used for emotional beats (Sarah, Laurel, FELICITY! etc) but the male ones (Diggle's brother, Tommy) is just "oh ok" and quickly forgotten.

I've felt since season two that the show has been spinning its wheels and just not "doing" very well. In comparison, Person of Interest at this point had just torn down HR and THAT arc was simply incredible

[BlackNMild2k1]

Arrow has failed this season.

If I wasn't so invested, I would just put aside Arrow S3 till it's over and only watch The Flash for now.

Thea's training. Oliver's survival and recovery, his fight with Ra's, the fact that Chief Lance will call out Roy with the quickness, but maintain "plausible deniability" with Oliver/Arrow, Diggle ops to stay at base of operations and let Laurel of all people go out on patrol in his place during Ollie's absence.... it's all so stupid.

Not to mention Ollie returning on Live TV, yet not wanting Ra's to find out he is alive.... but wanting time to train with Merlyn so that he can defeat Ra's....
if Merlyn was that good, why wouldn't he just challenge Ra's himself? oh yeah, he's smart enough to send dumbass Ollie in his place... let him make it his fight.

Season 3 is suffering from the Glau effect, but I hope it recovers soon, because this season so far has been garbage. easily trounced by the likes of Agents of SHIELD, The Flash and Gotham (in that order). That is a mighty fall from grace at the top of the lot. But there was a lot less competition last season (s2 was excellent up until the last 3 eps.)

I will agree they  have made some missteps.  However, I will say you are being little hard on the show.

1)  I don't think Ollie was on national TV.  The Glades had been cleared of police I think it was probably cleared of media as well.  He was rallying the people.  However, the other side is that Ollie could just assume the League would already find out about him...after all training to be a master only takes like less than a year anyway...look at Thea.

(Thea is the biggest misstep I see this season.  I know why they are doing it...but it just looks stupid.)

2)Laurel is stubborn and was going to go out there anyway.  Should Diggle have gone instead or with the team...but perhaps Laurel didn't know how to properly use the system to help on the backend.  At any rate they needed to get her into the action because it is destiny to get her in the action.  Brick was a minor enough villain to do it with.

(What I don't truly understand is the Dark Archers motives.  I know he lies all the time and can't be trusted, and I actually liked his tragic backstory, however, the whole idea of forcing the Arrow to go after Raj Al Ghul was insanely stupid.  Now Thea, him, and Ollie are in the cross hairs...but really it goes back to just him.)

But my biggest complaint I have is Ollie should have come back to life from the Lazurus Pit.  I know they like to keep the Supernatural and Super Hero stuff out of Arrow, but if you bring a character like Raj Al Ghul, you should bring all of him.  How cool would it have been to just jump a couple of months.  Have Black Canary and Arsenal with the Atom protecting the city...and Ollie comes back crazy from the Pit and a villain.  Only to find out through flashbacks that his mind isn't entirely gone, but made a deal with Raj Al Ghul after his resurrection...to kill the Dark Arrow.

His team goes against him instead of agreeing, and he is pulled back into the good side.  That would have been an epic season 3.

1) I believe he was on Local News making a speech about his return to Starling City. That's national enough once it hits the circuit. If everyone doesn't know his identity by the end of the next news cycle, then everyone is an idiot.
Thea being that good in a matter of months is just ridiculous. Her jumping off that balcony was even more ridiculous. and the obvious stunt double during training is more than obvious.

2) Laurel wants to go out on patrol? fine, but Diggle should have been out there supervising both Arsenal and Canary as the are both rookies. He should have done it in the green hood (or the black ski mask), and Felicity doesn't need him to help coordinate GPS locations for missions. Laurel was on the verge of getting herself killed and or jeopardizing the mission every time she went out. She needed a mentor/trainer on scene to direct her actions and watch her back.

*SPOILER*
As far as Merlyn befriending Thea to brainwash her into killing Sarah so that he could force Ollie to go face Ra's in his place was incredibly stupid. Just as stupid as him thinking Ollie even had a chance of beating Ra's in hand to hand combat, when Merlyn knew that Ollie couldn't even beat him. It just doesn't make much sense.

The Lazarus Pit most certainly should have been used in some form or fashion. Even if it was bottled into a less potent cocktail that his friend could use to nurse him back to health. They also should have had a time jump of several month of Brick terrorizing Starling or Central City (I forget which one they are in) which was overwhelming Diggle and Arsenal which is why they let Laurel out into the field. Throw in some training montages of Laurel with Wildcat, and Laurel with Diggle and Arsenal. and then eventually have Ollie make his triumphant return to take the credit for everyone elses unification and defeat of the Brick gang on Live TV.

actually, I would have had Ollie secretly return and train with Merlyn while helping Team Arrow from the shadows before revealing himself to be alive to not only the team, but the rest of the damn city.

this season is just far below what I've expected over the previous 2 seasons.

[marvel_moviefan_2012]

these are all the reasons I quite watching Arrow. It was doing great when Season 2 started then mid-season it turned to ****. Now they realized its **** so someone flushed it down the toiled and there is no going back now.

[Spak-Spang]

I enjoy popcorn, and I agree that the show is less believable.  I remember watching season 2 and thinking...it is definitely comic book melodrama, but I didn't believe the characters made stupid decisions...they seemed pretty smart...and that included all the villains and heroes.  With only one or two things that were silly.

But, season 3 does have many questionable decisions.  I would have liked Ollie been more honest with Ra's...it would have been more interesting. 

[Ceric]

I think in the end Season 2 caused more problems for the Arrow than the writers realized until they started the 3rd Season.  Introducing Meta-Humans messes with the Arrow dynamic.

[Spak-Spang]

I disagree Ceric.  Introducing Meta-humans doesn't ruin the dynamic.  The problem is that the Arrow series wants to be like the Nolan Batman films, and have everything be plausible.  I say Flash has shown that you can have both. 

The Flash embraces its comic heritage...and I think Arrow would do well to incorporate some of that.  For instance.  I was OK with the first Black Canary having a sonic device, because there were two Black Canaries in the comic and one did not have a meta power.  But I want Black Canary to have her true Canary call. 

You can do a careful balance between the two.  You just obviously need to be careful which meta humans you have Green Arrow fighting...but it would be nice to see more trick Arrows as well.  Especially, when the Arrow is trying a no kill policy.  Tazer or Electric Arrows, Gas Arrows, and such wouldn't be a bad start.  Perhaps Ollie can get his money or research facility back if the Atom teams up with him.

[marvel_moviefan_2012]

I disagree entirely with Spak here, the appeal of Arrow at first was how it didn't feel like a comic book show now that is out the window its no longer believable its turned into soap opera and thats not a good place to go. Soon enough it'll become power rangers and thats even worse. Flash didn't have that far to go but it started out ridiculous so it was built in Arrow started out realistic and serious and fell into eye rolling mid way through season 2 and never looked back. I think Arrow is now where Heroes was at the same juncture, dead but nobody on board wants to accept it is dead. The basically killed the show with that season 2 ending.

[BlackNMild2k1]

end of S2 was bad, but they could have recovered. Meta-humans wasn't the problem. I think the irony of it all is that The Flash and Arrow are by the same people, yet all focus at the moment is likely on The Flash, and Arrow took a backburner as far everything goes for S3.

If The Flash being the focus is actually th problem, then I fear for both The Flash and Arrow next season once Supergirl gets going, because that too is also by the same people. Hopefully by then, Arrow will just accept that it is part of this fantastical world that they try to stay grounded in and just go all out.
Bring out the Lazarus Pit. Give us the crazy trick arrows (made in co-creation with Star Labs) that help you defeat meta-humans and other such crazy people. Make Laurel have a freak accident that gives her the Canary Cry. Have John Diggle Stewart run across a downed alien ship near the end of next season (after the Supergirl tie in of course) where he recieves a Lantern Corp. Ring.. **** it. just go full ham. Let the crazy out.

The show would be better off for it.

Even the flashbacks seems rather dull, pointless and very unconnected from the present timeline.
Arrow is just off it's game as of Slade being turned into a simp <"radioactive....."> and onwards.

[marvel_moviefan_2012]

by the time it gets there Arrow will have lost its audience and the audience it would be trying to gain from going all out like that will likely rather tune into whatever Marvel cooks up. I think Arrow blew it and there is no turning back I haven't even watched a single episodes of Season 3 S2 killed the show for me. My mom kept watching but stopped after Ollie died and came back again.

[Plugabugz]

end of S2 was bad, but they could have recovered. Meta-humans wasn't the problem. I think the irony of it all is that The Flash and Arrow are by the same people, yet all focus at the moment is likely on The Flash, and Arrow took a backburner as far everything goes for S3.

If The Flash being the focus is actually th problem, then I fear for both The Flash and Arrow next season once Supergirl gets going, because that too is also by the same people. Hopefully by then, Arrow will just accept that it is part of this fantastical world that they try to stay grounded in and just go all out.

I think Supergirl and Atom need to be summer series in between like Agent Carter is, because the issue that's happening here is almost identical to what happened to Stargate and Star Trek: having too many shows inside the same universe at the same time (SG1 and Atlantis, TNG and DS9, DS9 and Voyager) is going to stretch the producers too far and turn off viewers.

[Shaymin]

Better Call Saul - Off to a solid start, had some funny moments which is kind of what was expected given the nature of the character. My main question is the Time to Heisenberg.

[BlackNMild2k1]

end of S2 was bad, but they could have recovered. Meta-humans wasn't the problem. I think the irony of it all is that The Flash and Arrow are by the same people, yet all focus at the moment is likely on The Flash, and Arrow took a backburner as far everything goes for S3.

If The Flash being the focus is actually th problem, then I fear for both The Flash and Arrow next season once Supergirl gets going, because that too is also by the same people. Hopefully by then, Arrow will just accept that it is part of this fantastical world that they try to stay grounded in and just go all out.

I think Supergirl and Atom need to be summer series in between like Agent Carter is, because the issue that's happening here is almost identical to what happened to Stargate and Star Trek: having too many shows inside the same universe at the same time (SG1 and Atlantis, TNG and DS9, DS9 and Voyager) is going to stretch the producers too far and turn off viewers.

I think an Atom 4 episode "mini" series would be pretty dope.
Supergirl is going to CBS though, so maybe a Summer series at first would help establish an audience with lowered ratings expectations. Maybe a 4 part mini-series prequel to the actual show or something. Krypton to Earth mini series. Actual series recaps mini series in 5 minutes and then starts off where it left off.

[Spak-Spang]

Honestly, if I was the CW I would be looking to make each of these series a 3-4 season series, building up the characters to a Justice Society...using the same actors. 

I think Arrow can have one more season with Amanda Waller as the "big bad"  But I think that it would be great if that season ended with Amanda Waller "winning" and forcing the formation of the Justice Society.

By then you could have:  The Atom, The Flash, Firestorm, The Arrow, John Stewart Green Arrow.  Make Ollie the "Batman like" leader and you have a good show.  Star Labs would become the base of operations and you join the two supporting casts as a team. 

[BlackNMild2k1]

You left out Supergirl.

and Arrow has a 5 season "plan" apparently. S3 isn't going so hot, but it's not too late for them to at least salvage whats left of it.

There is also the (Teen) Titans supposedly coming to TNT. That could also be connected, even though nor from the same production company as Arrow, The Flash, and Supergirl.

[Spak-Spang]

I left out Supergirl because even though it is in the same universe it is not on the same channel and might have difficulties with crossing over. 

I would think it would be wise to do my plan than Krypton or even Teen Titans (Since we would have invested interests and origin stories already told.) 

[Khushrenada]

Better Call Saul - Off to a solid start, had some funny moments which is kind of what was expected given the nature of the character. My main question is the Time to Heisenberg.

Well, at one point, Jimmie is giving his credit card number over the phone and mentions the expiry date as 11/04. That would mean it is about 4-5 years even before Heisenberg I would think.

[Shaymin]

True, but the timeline for these things is, shall we say, flexible. I mean, we've already seen (Breaking Bad reference) Jimmy managing a Cinnabon in Omaha from the opening scene.

[Khushrenada]

Ha ha. I guess so. I already forgot about that part and am just thinking of this now in the linear story progression of how the rest of the episode went. But you're right. I do wonder if we might see two storylines of before BB and after BB at the same time.

In regards to that opening, my initial take is that it wasn't that great and rather forgettable. You compare it to the pilot of BB and there's a greater hook and immediate interest to that story. BCS relies too much on you already being aware of this character and world to keep you intrigued. If someone who had never seen BB was going through channels or tuning in, I'm not sure that opening would keep them around. Vince Gilligan often talked about the opening of an episode and how they would use it to grab people to keep them interested in seeing more. Not every BB episode did this of course but many did. At the same time, BB has grown to a much larger level in the public's consciousness since it premiered and most of the people tuning in for this will be people who have watched BB so it's most likely not a huge issue. I just hope though that the show doesn't become lax in forgetting the principals that made BB a hit.