Topic: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?

[KDR_11k]

"even if Virtual Reality was the new standard in gaming, you'd still be going from point A to point B/racing to the finish/fighting bosses etc etc etc"

Sure things like Nintendogs come along (which i DONT own mind you) and seem new but sims have been around for years. To me that series is nothing more but a fancy Tomagachi thing. Electroplankton? seems fun but i never bought it, sorry. Pikmin is a RTS so it didnt get my money either. I could go on, really.

"All games are only about simple tasks except for genres A,B,C and D that I don't count!"

[EasyCure]

On The Rat:

It's cool if you feel the need to defend the genre because thats what you're into, i was just defending myself and didnt want to get drawn into a debate or be labeled as a game basher. By the way Primal Fury was sweet, i almost forgot about that game. I also just remembere another fighting game that wasnt 16-bit that i actually did love; its a little gem called Flying Dragon for the N64. Anyone ever play it?
It had two modes: one was a serious fighter with a weak-point system in place where for a split second a flashing dot would appear on your or your opponents weak point and if struck you could do some serious damage, if not KO them completely. It was probably the most technical fighter I ever enjoyed but i liked the second game mode better. It was almost all the same characters but in a kid form and it had an rpg element to it where you could buy items from a store to increas some stats on your fighter, or win a battle in certain conditions to win rare items. I'm pretty sure you could even level up too, so even if you won a certain item you might need to level up just to use it. It was sweet.

On IceCold:

I never outright dismissed Pikmin. I always wanted to check it out because everyone raved about it. When people rave about a Miyamoto game and claim it as the best new IP ever, it deserves to be played. Unfortunately in high school i didnt make much money so i didnt want to spend the $50 on something i wasnt sure about. I try not to buy Nintendo branded games used either so even though now, more than ever, i want to check the series out I cant because i cant find the damn game.

On KDR 11k:

You either specifically took my words out of context or just missed the point of my post entirely, i cant tell.

[animecyberrat]

No GP, the point I was making is that as market leader the Wii should have a wider variety. How can you say PS2 didn't do that? Have you not heard of Eye Toy? Or those games that use the buzzers? Or what about American Idol? PS2 had plenty of these casual non gamer games. Not to mention the most casual market of all, Sports games, dominated the PS2.


I was saying that Wii should have more of the traditional games as well as more casual games, YOU SAID that PS2 didn't even have casual games or something to that affect and that you made it sound like Wii only needed casual type games or something. That was how I was reading your comments.


You rattled off a bunch of big name PS2 titles and somehow thought I wa arguing against the system having hard core games, I know already PS2 had more traditional games, I never contested that!


I wasn't making an argument either I was defending the genres people bash because it honestly boggles my mind people can trash talk a game for not straying from the established formula and say it sucks because it doesn't innovate then turn around and bitch about heir favorite franchise getting some unwanted overhaul.


Icecold, that was over a year ago and I dropped it didn't I? Yes I honestly feel that way about Monkey Ball, the game just screams PBS kids to me, I can't do that. It's no different than Bratz or any of the Nick Toons as far as I am concerned. I should not have brought down those who enjoy the series but when I played it I felt the same as if I sat down to watch Barney and friends without my 3 year old nephew around. But Hey if you enjoy it fine. That was *MY* impression of the game.


Easycure, you're right I was mostly meaning Pro but I never can tell when he is serious or not but his repeated comments on innovations and touched a nerve.


My main gripe is the Wii doesn't have any fighting games, but with VC giving me all the classics I can live without the remakes and sequels for now. RPG's on the other hand, just because PS is more famous for them is no excuse to write the Wii off as not capable or not having the fanbase for it.

The thing is as market leader, Wii should have a wider variety than it does, PS2 did have that something for everyone even if the focus was on more action oriented games. 360 on the other hand, if you're not into First Person Shooters or Halo Clones than forget it you will be less happy than a Wii gamer into Fighting games and RPG's ,except 360 is getting more RPG's than Wii and some comments on here were saying how RPG's tend to flock to PS3 or something when I still see more on the 360 than either of the other two so I don't get that logic either.


I seam to recall an argument we had a year or two ago over SNES being superior to Genesis due to it's RPG and Fighting game library, how things have changed huh. Consequently Eternal Champions still is to this day the only fighting game I have experienced I hate. I may or may not have defended it before I don't remember but if I did it was more or less to defend the Genesis varied library over anything else.


So now re-read my previous post and re-read yours and tell me who started what please. I was only trying to defend both sides this entire thread. Because that is how I feel, both hopeful and yet dissatisfied at the same time.

[Mesu]

You basically stated that a market leader should have this vast array of genres, yet it has never been the case in previous generations (Down to the PSone era). It may be crap to you, but it has ZERO to do with a system being a market leader since every market leader had its own genre or emphasis when it came to what kinds of games were being made for it.

This is not correct. The thing to remember is Playstation didn't miss out and any important 3rd party games that N64 and Saturn got (and in the rare cases that they did the playstation was not lacking in other games from that genre). The playstation did miss out on turok and no mercy but it wasn't lacking in those genres.

The PS2 followed the playstation in not missing out on genres that were made from 3rd parties on the XBOX or GC. An example of this is with games like Ikaruga on gamecube, the ps2 got more side scrolling shooters than gamecube. The most important casual games playstation 2 missed out were first party game(mario party, animal crossing).  If Playstation and PS 2 lacked casual games it's because 3rd parties weren't making many of them.

There's no historical evidence the Wii won't get more Japanese RPGs than the PS3 in the future if it keeps outselling at the rate it is.

I think the reason it seems like it's taking forever for the wii to get significant 3rd party games is people can read the internet everyday and check if wii has support yet. In the past people could not do that. It makes a week without any new announcements to seem like a lot longer than it did the past.

The NES had a slow start too for important 3rd party games. For instance the NES was released in 1985 but a lot of the most remembered 3rd party games didn't get released until 1987:


Castlevania 1987

Mega Man 1987

Contra 1988

Double Dragon 1988

Bubble Bobble 1988

R.C. Pro Am 1988

Blaster Master 1988

Metal Gear 1988

Adventure Island 1988

Ninja Gaiden 1989

Dragon Warrior 1989

Tecmo Bowl 1989

Bomberman 1989

River City Ransom 1989

Final Fantasy 1990

Little Nemo: The Dream Master 1990

Battletoads 1991

It's true that they Ghouls and Ghosts, and Gradius were out in 1986 but the wii also had 3rd party games of comparable importance with its first 12 months.

The NES is best console to compare wii to since it started without 3rd party support. Playstation 1 isn't the best comparision because it was easier to switch to early because of the high cost of N64 carts.

[GoldenPhoenix]

To Rat: That is a fair response I apologize for misinterpreting what you said.

Mesu: Fair points but my basic point had more to do with ratio differences between genres on a system like PS2 and how the Wii is almost "flipped" in favor of casual games with less emphasis on hardcore. That is all I was trying to say.

[Chozo Ghost]

The NES is best console to compare wii to since it started without 3rd party support. Playstation 1 isn't the best comparision because it was easier to switch to early because of the high cost of N64 carts.

What about the high cost of developing for the 360 and PS3? In the case of the PS3, there is also the high cost of Blu-ray to take into account as well. The Wii is much cheaper to develop for than its competitors, so isn't this just like how the PS1 was cheaper to develop for than the N64 and Saturn?

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

PS1 doesn't compare well since it wasn't that much cheaper relative to the graphical output that could be achieved on the other consoles.

Devs/Pubs these days are still dazzled by the HD/horsepower prospects despite the high costs.  The Bigger & Better has become their norm, making Wii look like GBA development relative to GC/PS2/Xb development.

[vudu]

I try not to buy Nintendo branded games used either so even though now, more than ever, i want to check out [Pikmin, but] I cant because i cant find the damn game.

That's a damn shame.  This is a situation that needs to be rectified quickly.  I'm happy to loan you either (or both) of the games.

[EasyCure]

I try not to buy Nintendo branded games used either so even though now, more than ever, i want to check out [Pikmin, but] I cant because i cant find the damn game.

That's a damn shame.  This is a situation that needs to be rectified quickly.  I'm happy to loan you either (or both) of the games.

DEAL!

[animecyberrat]

Pikmin was fun I really enjoyed it for about a week, unfortunately I got stuck right away and had too many other games to play to stay focused on one for too long and got bored and sold it before I had a chance to finish it. I regret doing that now.


GP, and I thought you just liked pushing my buttons. J/K I guess we both misread each others posts.

[Kairon]

No animecyberrat. You got it right. GP likes pushing people's buttons. But it's nothing personal, I'm sure.

just kidding GP!

[Chozo Ghost]

How could Pikmin be hard to find? It became a player's choice title, for crying out loud! If you can only find it used, then get it used then. It's a last gen title, so Nintendo has made all the money from it that they're going to at this point. Although, they may wii-make it for the Wii, or make a sequel... but don't hold your breathe on that.

[Nick DiMola]

Pikmin goes for about $20 for a used copy on eBay/Half.com and Pikmin 2 goes for AT LEAST $50 for a used copy on the same sites. Pikmin 2 is 1 of the more sought after Gamecube titles.

[Adrock]

There's a copy of Pikmin 2 gathering dust at work. I would've purchased it already if it had the instruction booklet. I just wanted to try either Pikmin because I completely ignored them when they first came out.

[EasyCure]

How could Pikmin be hard to find? It became a player's choice title, for crying out loud! If you can only find it used, then get it used then. It's a last gen title, so Nintendo has made all the money from it that they're going to at this point. Although, they may wii-make it for the Wii, or make a sequel... but don't hold your breathe on that.

because other people like me wanted to pick up gamecube titles before they were ALL gone (the good games anyway) like they are now. I said i dislike buying nintendo games used from places like gamestop but sometimes its all you can do.

I've purchased both Donkey Konga Games, Star Fox Adventures and Assault, Killer 7 all used because i knew they'd be harder to find.

 I planned on getting Jungle Beat (cuz Icecold is always raving about it), Irakuga (or whatever that shoot 'em up game is called that i also heard was fantastic), both Pikmins, Paper Mario 1000 year door, and i cant remember what else. I missed my chance though it seems. Out of 4 different Gamestops in my immidiate area, only one still sells GC games and most of the better ones have been sold. All you see now is madden games, harvest moon, and hello kitty lol. There are a few others but either they're games i already have (metroid prime, megaman collection, f-zero GX etc) or just utter crap (see: Helly Kitty again)

Other places like TRU and Best Buy are similar situations. It's either they ONLY have crap or nothing at all. Unfortunately i dont trust any sort of online retailer so don't bother recommending ebay and the like.

[Nick DiMola]

half.com isn't bad for used games because they have very strict guidelines for what constitutes like new condition. If those guidelines aren't met, you the buyer are favored because the seller incorrectly listed the item.

[Mesu]

Mesu: Fair points but my basic point had more to do with ratio differences between genres on a system like PS2 and how the Wii is almost "flipped" in favor of casual games with less emphasis on hardcore. That is all I was trying to say.

That observation might be true, but it's still too early in the Wiis life to know what its library will be like by the time it's over. Historically market leading console have a more balanced library than the other consoles. If you think of casual games as simply games created for people who play casaully, the PS2 did very well with casual games(it probably had more movie licence games that any console in history). I don't have a problem seeing that a system can have an emphasis but it has never been important enough for a market leading console to miss out on any popular genre that 3rd parties were making on other consoles. The statement that bothered me was this one:

This generation the Wii's bread N butter is casual games so I do not expect a ton of traditional games to show up to balance the casual games, it is just not historically shown. So, I hate to say it, you are just going to have to live with it, or buy another console.

It is a reasonable theory that Wii will get less traditional games because its newer buyers aren't traditional gamers, but it is still just a theory. There is no precedent for this happening historically. If you want to see an unbalanced console look at the ones that sold moderate to poorly. The Xbox sold about 1/5 of what PS2 sold and it's emphasis is alot more clearly defined than PS2s(the PS2 still got most of the 3rd party FPS the Xbox got.) The Neo Geo sold even less than Xbox and it's emphasis was even more clear. What was the PS2s emphasis anyways? "Traditional games"? Were non traditional game really popular until PS2 came along? Couldn't the 2600, NES, SNES, PS1s emphasis reasonably be called traditional games also? In 5 years Wii sports, Wii fit, etc will known as traditional games because the other consoles maker will include motion controls in their next consoles.

Personally I don't care if most traditional games never make it Wii. The only reason I care is I hope someday they make a Virtua Fighter for it. Not just for the sake me being able to play for the series to try to reach new audience. I see the series' presentation becoming more like tekken and less unique. The "hardcore" market already decided it likes tekken more. Virtua Fighter just need to find as many people as possible that naturally find it more compelling. I don't care if in 5 years the majority of gamers never heard of the all big francishes on PS3 and Xbox360 but I don't Virtua Fighter to have the same fate.

LIke I said I am fine with what kinds of games Wii is getting(Trauma Center is amazing). I don't like how 3rd parties underestimate the Wii audience. Nintendo fans have diverse tastes and so do a lot of the people buying a Wii as their first console(or first since the NES era). The PS2 had diverse games even and genres that weren't on PSone even though the audience was very similar.

What about the high cost of developing for the 360 and PS3? In the case of the PS3, there is also the high cost of Blu-ray to take into account as well. The Wii is much cheaper to develop for than its competitors, so isn't this just like how the PS1 was cheaper to develop for than the N64 and Saturn?

I am still trying to understand 3rd party developers. I think they knew about the high development costs of PS3 and 360 long before they launched and accepted it as inevitable. A lot of 3rd parties resented Nintendo for the way they were treated before the N64 launched and were looking for excuses to leave anyways. If some 3rd parties made the decision to split with Nintendo pre launch(because 3rd parties knew Nintendo was using carts well before launch) the results would show up on opposing systems faster than it would for the Wii. With the Wii the decsion can't start until after a consistent sales pattern emerges. Even last year a Sega executive said he though the PS3 would outsell the Wii eventually. Also remember that Namco made key games like Ridge Racer and Tekken early in Playstations life and they wanted the Saturn to fail because they were rivals with Sega in the arcades.

The most important thing to remember is ps2/xbox had around 85% market share so focusing on Wii instead of the HD consoles prelaunch would have been a large risk. While SNESes market share lead was significant, there was enough Genesis owners that wasn't a huge risk. Also Sony paid developers for exclusives and Nintendo seems to have policy against that.

[animecyberrat]

I don't buy the high dev cost crap. Everything is going up, thats the way life works.
As for PS3/360, look any company that made games for those systems at launch already SPENT the money on Dev Kits and already SPENT the money on developing game engines so a lot of the start up cost is negligible now. I also don't see how just making a game in HD raises the cost that much. I mean it requires what more powerful hardware to develop the games on, well isn't that included in the SDK? Any dev who has the PS3 SDK already has the hardware to make PS3 games in HD.


I mean sure PS3/360games likely do cost more to make, but considering all factors involved it can't be so much higher that they don't make money on the games.

[Kairon]

The latest Ubisoft fiscal year results revealed the fact that Wii games can cost $ 7.8-9 million US to make... and PS360/PC titles $ 18.8 - 28.2 million US to make. That's a very significant difference.

[KDR_11k]

Rat, the cost of the tools is negligible. The real cost comes from the need to make more complicated art assets which takes work and work is expensive.

[animecyberrat]

I mean sure PS3/360games likely do cost more to make, but considering all factors involved it can't be so much higher that they don't make money on the games.

$ 7.8-9 million US to make... and PS360/PC titles $ 18.8 - 28.2 million

But not so much higher that making games for the others can't be profitable otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. Plus don't the PS3/360 Games cost more so they make up a little bit of that with each disc sold. Overall It can't be too big of a difference it doesn't balance out somehow.

I didn't say it doesn't cost more, and sure from those numbers it is almost double, but you have to take into consideration that a game developed for PS3 or 360 can easily be ported to the other console and the PC with no more effort and right there open up a larger market.

But KRD you forgot to mention that a lot of games reuse the same character models, like the sports games, the FPS Sequels, etc, so those costs are already spent. Especially if you refer to Ubisoft or EA who certainly do reuse likely at least 50% of the last game in the series, those actual costs are cut down more.


Kairon, those numbers were from Post launch reports for games developed in he launch period. By now a lot of those costs have been recouped.


I figure it is easily cheaper for a new dev or a small studio to jump into Wii than the other two, but for the BIG studios who make the BIG games were are talking about, those devs already spent most of the cost required to "get in the door" and now are only having to recoup individual costs.

[Kairon]

Were those really launch games rat? That was commenary from the fiscal year that just ended, which didn't include any launch titles.

[animecyberrat]

The year JUST ended means games released LAST YEAR, which was the first year of PS3 sales. 360 is way past launch and I am sure their costs have gone down quit a bit since then.

[Kairon]

The year JUST ended means games released LAST YEAR, which was the first year of PS3 sales. 360 is way past launch and I am sure their costs have gone down quit a bit since then.

Maybe not "launch titles," but perhaps we can agree on the "first wave" of games?

Either way, the Wii is just a couple million units from passing the COMBINED totals for the XBox360 and PS3 worldwide. That's gotta count for something, right?

And like KDR said, it's this HD graphical quality that makes content creation expensive. You have to make models, then you have to rig the models, then you have to animate the models, then you have to texture the models... and who knows what else. I'm not an artist, but I remember from E3 2006 that one speaker at a confeence was esaily forseeing a future with 200 artist teams, and another was saying that if anyone had the resumes of 20 good artists, give them to him immediately and he'd hire them all. Art is becoming a real pain-in-the-buttocks.

[Mashiro]

"And like KDR said, it's this HD graphical quality that makes content creation expensive. You have to make models, then you have to rig the models, then you have to animate the models, then you have to texture the models... and who knows what else."

That's the same for every 3D game