Author Topic: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?  (Read 63939 times)

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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #250 on: April 30, 2008, 01:52:45 AM »
"There was a lot of demand for those genres and people didn't care how similar a game was"
They do care (in terms of what's actually purchased).  They flock to the genre kings, and the rest of the games get you $4 cash back at GameStop.
Publishers don't seem to care much about that gamble though as evident by those releasing on Christmas. The genre kings aren't always something new either, maybe just something old done well.

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #251 on: April 30, 2008, 02:05:44 AM »
That's a strong, quick reason to not innovate.
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Offline animecyberrat

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #252 on: April 30, 2008, 02:57:09 AM »
But WHY does something HAVE to be new to be good?! I don't get it, you guys who bash the "hard core" and the throw innovation out there make me sick. How the hell is Mario Kart Wii any more innovative than Mario Kart DS or Mario Kart DD? Forget it I don't want to reopen that can of worms again. I just hate that word.

It's like if something has been done once some people think it can't be done again. Yet the same people who bash all these genre safe sequels who try and keep doing what they always do, forget that even Nintendo's own sequels do the same thing.

To someone who has lost interest in fighting games fine don't play them, but to someone who still cares very much about them and feels starved for good options it can be a problem. Now releasing old Neo Geo and SNES fighting games for VC is nice and all, but that is not satisfying enough. So Pro, Easycure and some others don't like fighting games, fine ok but STOP insulting those who do by talking trash on the genre. Hypocrits the lot of you. When I say how I don't like F-Zero or Pokemon or Wind Waker, I get chastized and provoked to no end with stupid lame fanboy comments like those in some of the more recent posts.


But it's ok for you guys to trash talk a genre others may like just because it's not what interests you? I hate it when people do that. I don't like every FPS that comes out, but I do like the genre and I would like some more variety to chose from instead of having to spend $400 on a second console, which I will address that not so simple and not as feasible issue in a bit.

Never in this thread did I agree or being to think Wii doesn't have enough good games, notice also that the games that don't interest me I did not make fun of, call names, or belittle one bit. But the games I would like to see on Wii that aren't very likely to be on Wii, everyone trash talks on, insults, makes generalizations about the audience, like that insulting post about the "hard core crowd"

Ian nailed it head on with most of his last post. I threw those three genres out there because like it or not there are some good games within each and there are people who like those games and they should be better represented on Wii considering the massive sales and all.

Also note nowhere in any of my posts did I say anything negative about the casual games either yet most responses since have been putting down the hard core crowd/games, and pointing out the lack of casual games on the other systems, but what relevance does that have? We already KNOW the Wii is the system for casual games, nobody was saying PS3 or 360 was better by any means because of their selections, or at least I wasn't, but that some, SOME, *some* genres get better attention on those consoles than Wii and as market leader that is crap.



Now I do maintain that I *hope* and still believe that RPG's and FPSes will get better on Wii and I can live with the lack of good fighting games because let's face it it is a dieing genere and VC is going to have to do. But I will not run out and buy a 360 to play a handful of games that should have been on Wii and that I could get on my PC anyways.


The whole, "if you don't like it buy the second console" argument doesn't really work this time like it usually has in the past, because before ALL of the main consoles started out below $300 and only went down as time went on, this time around ONLY the Wii started below that fair and reasonable price point and therefore was the only budget friendly console to chose from. Last gen if I wasn't satisfied with GC variety it wasn't that expensive to pick up the other two consoles and grab the games I wanted, which I did BTW. But this gen just to buy all three consoles not 1 single game is over a grand, money not everyone has. Then throw in how expensive the controllers, games, and other accessories are and it gets ridiculous.

By this time last gen all three consoles were all under $250 and GC was already around $150 so for the price of just a Ps3 and a couple of games, you could get all three consoles and at least 1 game each. For those who got a Wii and can't afford to buy very many games for it, sure as hell don't have the money to pick up a 360, let alone a PS3. So please don't list that as an option when it isn't as realistic as it has historically been. Hell back in the 16 Bit days when you could survive owning one or the other, it wasn't that expensive to pick up the other console after a while and games dropped in price a lot more rapidly than they do now, for the most part.


 
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Offline Kairon

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #253 on: April 30, 2008, 03:35:19 AM »
Good points and I completely agree with you animecyberrat. Heck, people. You know what else isn't new? Phoenix Wright. Yeah, you heard me. Text adventures are sooooo 1980's.

I absolutely adore newness, but I'm as much a genre addict as the next gamer. I long for JRPGs. I long for god-sim games, and adventure games, and corridor and 3D arcade flight sims and RTS'... basically, all these games that I grew up with in the late 80's and early 90's. Heck, River City Ransom owned my childhood. But the Wii has nothing like it. Maybe the closest thing to RCR nowadays is GTA...

Yes, I'm buying Wii Fit and I'm buying World of Goo and stuff. But it's the hardcore gamer in me that celebrates when I hear that Sam & Max is coming to the Wii, or Strong Bad. Nothing's more hardcore than a point-and-click adventure game. And rail-gun shooters. Bring 'em on! Playing Ghost Squad with my brother was one of the happiest moments in recent memory for me! Thank god there are at least these two hardcore genres that the Wii is undeniably strong in!

And gosh darn it, I LIKED FAR CRY! So there! Friggin' need more decent, playable, FPS games on the Wii...

.

..

...

But you're right animecyberrat. It's just... this generation sucks for multiconsole gamers because Sony and MS just friggin' jacked the price out of reach for the common man. And while the Wii is sensibly priced, its immense success means it's not going to get price dropped for a long while. So while in the past multiconsole gamers (of which I've never been one, mind you) could shell out a mere $600 and be done with it, the business maneuverings of today make that economically infeasible.

Nevertheless, there's no argueing with what those business decisions have reaped for the companies and gamers. Nintendo is number 1 again and may actually match or surpass the PS2 in sales. The XBox 360 has a near impregnable fanbase. And the graphical and interface leaps this generation are impressive... they're just exponentially more expensive. ARGH.

It's such a WEIRD generation. It's exciting, I'm loving it, I'm happier with my Wii-only collection than I've been for a long time... but it's just so confusing.
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Offline Nick DiMola

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #254 on: April 30, 2008, 08:22:44 AM »
The whole, "if you don't like it buy the second console" argument doesn't really work this time like it usually has in the past, because before ALL of the main consoles started out below $300 and only went down as time went on, this time around ONLY the Wii started below that fair and reasonable price point and therefore was the only budget friendly console to chose from. Last gen if I wasn't satisfied with GC variety it wasn't that expensive to pick up the other two consoles and grab the games I wanted, which I did BTW. But this gen just to buy all three consoles not 1 single game is over a grand, money not everyone has. Then throw in how expensive the controllers, games, and other accessories are and it gets ridiculous.

Unfortunately that argument has to work, because it is reality. Yeah it sucks that all of these other systems are very expensive, but if you want to experience the full gamut of games you NEED to buy a second console. But like I said before there are plenty of great games on the Wii in particular genres, but that is not going to satisfy everybody. If you are willing to try and like new things a Wii will get you through, but if you want certain experiences and are unwilling to change your tastes, forget it, the Wii is not going to cut it.

The thing that annoys me is how everyone just expects that the Wii SHOULD get everything. Sure it is a market leader, but with 3 consoles all with a strong fanbase, there are certain games that are guaranteed to sell better on each system. Shooters are totally locked up by Microsoft. Their fans live and breath them. I bet the same will become true on the PS3 with RPGs, particularly JRPGs, so don't expect them to see a release on the Wii because of said reasons. The Wii has it's niche just like everyone else, I think the bigger problem is the total lack of quality in many games that could and should be good but aren't. The developers know the games will sell whether or not they put in the extra effort, so why bother? Thankfully some companies have really picked up the ball and showed that they are committed to quality.

It is also worth noting that the Wii is still in it's infancy and it took even longer than this to really get the DS off the ground. About this time in the DS lifecycle, the PSP was launching and everyone was predicting a slaughter. But Nintendo pulled out a couple critical titles and the floodgates opened. I'd say the floodgates have already opened, but people are just changing gears and in another year people will be singing another tune. But in all honesty, I couldn't care less. I love the Wii. I have had great experiences and more and more games keep coming out that I want. The only lull I experienced was right after it came out, and that was short-lived.

To bring it full circle, invest in a second console if and when you have the ability to do so. You will be much happier with the state of things if you do. The console market is not the same as it was (due largely to Nintendo turning it on it's head with the Wii), so you can't expect to buy just one console and get full (and good) representation of every genre out there.
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Offline Mario

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #255 on: April 30, 2008, 09:44:42 AM »
Don't do it. He's a plant. Get Mario Kart.

Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #256 on: April 30, 2008, 11:15:45 AM »
To be fair, I will concede that Nintendo's AAA titles for the Wii are pretty much the same sort of AAA titles as they put out for the Gamecube (Zelda, Mario, Metroid). The Wii should have completely different stuff. Innovating doesn't always have to be about creating completely new stuff. I think it's also innovating when you take something really old and bring it back to the forefront.

All that said, where the heck is punch-out and Icarus and all those other non-zelda-metroid-mario games that Nintendo used to make in the good old days? I don't really understand why Nintendo is so obsessed with the two Ms and their Z franchise. They've done lots of other cool stuff in the past, but they abandoned those things in the NES or SNES era. I say it is time they bring all that back, because I am kinda in agreement with many of you that Smash Bros., Mario Kart, Metroid Prime, et cetera is all basically the same as what we seen on the Gamecube only a few years ago. Rehashing a franchise over and over again isn't innovative... but bringing back a long dead one probably is.

Edited to add: Mario Paint FTW! Nintendo could even bundle it with a printer add-on so you could print the stuff you make on your Wii.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #257 on: April 30, 2008, 11:43:01 AM »
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #258 on: April 30, 2008, 12:31:39 PM »
To be fair, I will concede that Nintendo's AAA titles for the Wii are pretty much the same sort of AAA titles as they put out for the Gamecube (Zelda, Mario, Metroid). The Wii should have completely different stuff. Innovating doesn't always have to be about creating completely new stuff. I think it's also innovating when you take something really old and bring it back to the forefront.

All that said, where the heck is punch-out and Icarus and all those other non-zelda-metroid-mario games that Nintendo used to make in the good old days? I don't really understand why Nintendo is so obsessed with the two Ms and their Z franchise. They've done lots of other cool stuff in the past, but they abandoned those things in the NES or SNES era. I say it is time they bring all that back, because I am kinda in agreement with many of you that Smash Bros., Mario Kart, Metroid Prime, et cetera is all basically the same as what we seen on the Gamecube only a few years ago. Rehashing a franchise over and over again isn't innovative... but bringing back a long dead one probably is.

Edited to add: Mario Paint FTW! Nintendo could even bundle it with a printer add-on so you could print the stuff you make on your Wii.

Well in addition to anything they announce at E3 they've got Disaster: Day of Crisis (new IP) and Kirby (a franchise, but one that didn't get a mainline game on the Cube) coming later this year.
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Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #259 on: April 30, 2008, 12:47:50 PM »
I really hope it's like the dreamland series or more adventure-ish.  I wonder how a 3rd person camera would work with Kirby? 

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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #260 on: April 30, 2008, 03:15:00 PM »
Well before I begin I want to state I was not referring to Rat's posts at all during my responses, they mainly to Ian. In regards to some of the rat's points, I have to really disagree.

FPS shooters are mostly picked on because there has been an absolute flood of them with each game basically being the same thing (Like WWII based). It is extremely unfair to compare Nintendo to many of these flooded genres, Nintendo may have its games where it knocks them out (Mario Party 8) but overall their "bigger" games usually attempt to innovate in some ways. One example is Super Mario Galaxy, that game took the platformer genre to new places, while maintaining the platformer feel. Few companies attempt to do something so drastic.

Interesting that the rat brings up Mario Kart for his argument, I don't believe anyone that is serious would say the MK series is innovative at all. It is pretty much the same thing it has always been. Is it still fun? Of course, but unlike games like Mario Party it isn't released every year, and is still "special" when it does come out.

Now in regards to the Wii and casual games, I take it the rat was responding to my point, even if he did take it completely out of context. What I was stating is that every console since the PSone era has had a predominant type of game for it. The main reason why systems like SNES or NES didn't have such a stigma is because development costs were much lower then. Now companies need to be careful and consoles are usually shifted to a particular type of game or gamer. The Wii is no different. When the PS2 was on top, good casual games were tough to come by, but more "traditional" games were its bread n butter so developers stuck with it. This generation the Wii's bread N butter is casual games so I do not expect a ton of traditional games to show up to balance the casual games, it is just not historically shown. So, I hate to say it, you are just going to have to live with it, or buy another console.

So to sum things up. Nintendo at least attempts to innovate in their big games and has done far more for the industry in terms of setting the standard then Sony or MS combined, so it is NOT on the same level as either of those companies or even 3rd parties. They may have their rehash problem but at least the balance it out with some of the freshest gameplay experiences around. Even Wii Sports was quite fresh. If you don't like predominant casual games, mixed with some good traditional games (Mark my words there will be some traditional games) then buy one of the competitors like I have. I really doubt history is going to change because Nintendo is on top now. Either live with it or get something else.
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Offline Kairon

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #261 on: April 30, 2008, 03:30:59 PM »
But hardcore gaming has gotten too expensive GP. That's why everyone's mad at Nintendo: it's Nintendo's fault that Sony and MS are slowly seeking new ways to alienate hardcore players from their hobby, whether by pricing them out of it, or by concentrating on fewer and fewer genres to the exclusion of other hardcore genres that deserve just as much attention.

BTW, I'd like to point out that the Wii is actually extremely hardcore. Adventure gaming is a hardcore genre that outdates anything first-person-bleh, and rail-shooters leapt out of the beloved-but-dying arcade field to survive on the Wii, not the PS3. (Time Crisis wouldn't have sucked if it was on the Wii! ARGH!)
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #262 on: April 30, 2008, 03:34:00 PM »
But hardcore gaming has gotten too expensive GP. That's why everyone's mad at Nintendo: it's Nintendo's fault that Sony and MS are slowly seeking new ways to alienate hardcore players from their hobby, whether by pricing them out of it, or by concentrating on fewer and fewer genres to the exclusion of other hardcore genres that deserve just as much attention.

BTW, I'd like to point out that the Wii is actually extremely hardcore. Adventure gaming is a hardcore genre that outdates anything first-person-bleh, and rail-shooters leapt out of the beloved-but-dying arcade field to survive on the Wii, not the PS3. (Time Crisis wouldn't have sucked if it was on the Wii! ARGH!)

Well I try to avoid "hardcore" because I think it is extremely subjective, I like "traditional" much better. If anything Wii has been anti-traditional and that in itself is innovative (though it does tick people off who like traditional experiences).
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Offline Armak88

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #263 on: April 30, 2008, 03:35:06 PM »
I don't think that wii games aren't for people who are unwilling to change their tastes or don't like trying new things. I don't like sports games or (typical) racing games, until I experienced wii controls I wasn't to fond of FPS's either. I have always bought nintendo consoles because I like action/adventure games and platformers. Where else am I going to get these games? They are by no means new genre's or casually oriented. I just know that nintendo will deliver on these genres, as long as they have mario, metroid and zelda I'll be happy.

On the other hand I also enjoy RPG's. I have played through almost every final fantasy and enjoyed my fill of the genre on the SNES. Since then, however, I haven't been satisfied in this genre. However, I don't really like the direction that FF is going recently, and I'm not going to shell out the money for a new system for one game. I don't feel particularly deprived, I just wish I could play a GOOD new RPG every once in a while.
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Offline Nick DiMola

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #264 on: April 30, 2008, 03:43:00 PM »
I don't think that wii games aren't for people who are unwilling to change their tastes or don't like trying new things. I don't like sports games or (typical) racing games, until I experienced wii controls I wasn't to fond of FPS's either. I have always bought nintendo consoles because I like action/adventure games and platformers. Where else am I going to get these games? They are by no means new genre's or casually oriented. I just know that nintendo will deliver on these genres, as long as they have mario, metroid and zelda I'll be happy.

If you are referring to what I posted, the only point I was trying to convey about taste-changing was that each system has established a niche where certain genres are more predominant than on the other systems. If you don't like the genres the Wii specializes in or want more genres, you are kind of SOL. The only way you will be happy is by purchasing a second system to complement the Wii. That argument applies to the other systems as well. If you are a PS3 owner and aren't happy, you are going to have to complement that with another system.
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Offline EasyCure

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #265 on: April 30, 2008, 03:51:07 PM »
Hey Hey Hey lets be fair here... i never insulted anyone person here or any type of gamer that enjoys fighting games with my post so i dont deserve to have my name in that one post accusing me of bashing on any gamers.

Besides if you look back a few pages ago, you'll see that my stance on gaming in general is that, like movies, "EVERYTHING" has been done so its nothing new when it comes to the majority of mainstream gaming. In fact i said something along the lines of:

"even if Virtual Reality was the new standard in gaming, you'd still be going from point A to point B/racing to the finish/fighting bosses etc etc etc"

Sure things like Nintendogs come along (which i DONT own mind you) and seem new but sims have been around for years. To me that series is nothing more but a fancy Tomagachi thing. Electroplankton? seems fun but i never bought it, sorry. Pikmin is a RTS so it didnt get my money either. I could go on, really.

What i was trying to say in my post is that some genres that don't have much to them to begin with, (in this case fighters) because there isnt much that CAN be done, are as frustrating as the clones in brawl. It's one thing to buy a sequel to a game you like and have it be similar but why would I want to buy a whole "new" IP that plays just like the other IP and its sequel i payed good money for. It really comes down to the individual on whats stale or not. To me fighters have become stale, that is until someone introduces a new mechanic that makes it feel new again. Mario and Zelda are stale franchises too but galaxy's physics made what would of been "just another platformer" enjoyable so it was worth it for the experience. As for Twilight Princess, i'll be honest i just can't get enough of some hot Link action. There havent been any clever puzzles in awhile that brought a smile to my face when solved, but its something i know i still like so if anyone wants to call it stale, i'll agree with them.

I think some of you guys are taking this stuff a little too personally. It's just video games dammit.
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Offline animecyberrat

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #266 on: April 30, 2008, 05:02:47 PM »
You're right easycure, your comments weren't what upset me, mostly Pro, but you long anti fighting game rant made it sound like you were just anti fighting game period and I tossed your name in because I didn't read your whole rant.


I still love the Wii and all and as far as 360 the few games that it has I want, most people here trash talk on so I don't think listing them will matter. To be fair, I just chose fighting games because, clones or not, I love Samurai Showdown, Art of Fighting, SFII, MK, Capcom vs, Children of the Atom, Tekken, Soul Caliber, VF, World Heroes, Cosmic Carnage, Primal Rage, and countless others. I don't see how making a sequel that adheres to the established formula is such a bad thing. I hate it when fighting games *try* to mix things up, because I prefer straight up one on one bare bones butt kicking. So for me, the few fighting games there are for any console not just Wii, is never enough.

But sadly the 360 seams to be getting all of the good ones and Wii only gets last gens MK port, generic DBZ rehash (the only fighting game serious I don't care to  rebuy each iteration because the story never changes and it's always the same scenarios.) I bought DBZ and will buy MK eventually because there isn't much else. But if I had the money I would snatch up an Elite in a heart beat.


But to also be fair to Wii, at leas VC does a good job filling in the blanks so I am not complaining about the games or lack of cuz I don't feel that, I just don't like how it feels like being a fighting game fans makes me anti fun or something.



And GP, have you not heard of Guitar Hero? Or Dance Dance Revolution? None of those started out on Wii or GC.
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Offline Maverick

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #267 on: April 30, 2008, 07:58:26 PM »
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #268 on: April 30, 2008, 09:13:40 PM »
"And GP, have you not heard of Guitar Hero? Or Dance Dance Revolution?"

Wow you found two examples, funny I don't believe I said anything about PS2 NOT having ANY casual games. Not to mention that Guitar Hero started out as fairly "hardcore" niche game. Dance Dance Revolution pretty much got its start in the arcade. But I guess if that is the best response you can counteract my argument on how the industry works I'm doing pretty good. Also I find it odd you decide to get testy with me since I am one of the few multi-console owners here that has defended all the systems.

Let's look at the franchises there were started (or embraced) on PS2 that are NOT casual and we'll see how your casual picks stack up.

-God of War
-GTA
-Final Fantasy
-Metal Gear Solid
-Tekken
-Castlevania
-Kingdom Hearts

I know there are tons more, but putting it in perspective I would not be surprised if the ratio of good "traditional" games outweighed "good" casual games by 90%+. Take out your music related games and it is a much more bleak picture when it comes to good casual games.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 11:59:31 PM by GoldenPhoenix »
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Offline animecyberrat

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #269 on: April 30, 2008, 10:30:07 PM »
Why did you turn this into an argument? I wasn't saying PS2 is all about casual games at all, and Ps3 wasn't even a part of my example at all. But whatever.


I am not saying Wii ISNT the system for casual games and I sure as hell wasn't saying that the other system are competing with those, so I don't know what your post was even about.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #270 on: April 30, 2008, 11:58:34 PM »
Why did you turn this into an argument? I wasn't saying PS2 is all about casual games at all, and Ps3 wasn't even a part of my example at all. But whatever.


I am not saying Wii ISNT the system for casual games and I sure as hell wasn't saying that the other system are competing with those, so I don't know what your post was even about.

Perhaps you should read your own post

"genres get better attention on those consoles than Wii and as market leader that is crap. "

You basically stated that a market leader should have this vast array of genres, yet it has never been the case in previous generations (Down to the PSone era). It may be crap to you, but it has ZERO to do with a system being a market leader since every market leader had its own genre or emphasis when it came to what kinds of games were being made for it.

PSone=Tradtional titles with little emphasis on quality "for everyone" titles
PS2=Traditional titles with little emphasis on "for everyone" titles
Wii="for everyone" titles with little emphasis on traditional games

Also why did I "turn" this into an argument, I believe you did that when you went after some of my comments, and attacking others here. I don't appreciate people doing that to my writing, especially when all I was doing was trying to show why I think it isn't surprising that Wii, even as market leader, doesn't have "X" genre in large quantities.

On a side note, if you are going to "call" people out, please have the courtesy to state who said what. That is how things get misinterpreted,

P.S. The PS3 was a typo
« Last Edit: May 01, 2008, 03:26:14 AM by GoldenPhoenix »
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Offline IceCold

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #271 on: May 01, 2008, 03:44:12 AM »
Quote
Pikmin is a RTS so it didnt get my money either.

That's just crazy. Anyone who dismisses Pikmin like that without even playing it is in my bad books ;)
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Offline IceCold

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #272 on: May 01, 2008, 03:46:34 AM »
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notice also that the games that don't interest me I did not make fun of, call names, or belittle one bit.

Haha, Monkey Ball..
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"If your parents never had children, chances are you won't either."
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #273 on: May 01, 2008, 03:51:24 AM »
I think Ninjabread Man is poo.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
« Reply #274 on: May 01, 2008, 07:43:48 AM »
I think Ninjabread Man is poo.

I never played it, but every time I hear about it the reviews are always very negatives, so it must be a crappy game. But at least the name is kinda witty... You gotta admit.
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