Author Topic: Hey! DC's got stuff too... (Official Thread for the DCU of Movies and TV)  (Read 269341 times)

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Offline UncleBob

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As much as I have always wanted a shared DC movie universe, I have to agree.  DC  and Warner need to scrap everything and just make good movies.  In spite of the numbers Marvel is producing, I do feel audiences are starting to get worn out on keeping up with everything (I haven't finished JJ2 or bothered with Runaways yet) and I don't think they're interested in getting invested in yet another giant franchise.  Even more so one with such a spotty record.

They need to realize that folks already know most of these characters.  Take a page from the animated movies and just tell good stories, throw in some easter eggs to fans (Teen Titans Go! is going to be an amazing film) and remember to have fun with it.
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Offline ShyGuy

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but that doesn't address the concern of them repeating "Thanos" vs the Avengers Justice League, only with much less build up and fanfare.

Should they still proceed with Darkseid, as stated in JL or should they swerve and do Starro or Bizarro or Braniac or whatever other big villains they got before diving straight into Darkseid?

If they can make a good movie with Darkseid, that has more reason to exist than "We planned on Darkseid showing up" then go for it. I don't think they can. I don't think they have any motivation for a new Justice League movie period.

Offline oohhboy

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The Nolan Trilogy broke DC's brain. They took away all the wrong lessons from it. They mistaken "Grounded, bent of realism" for grim/dark when that wasn't actually a thing in Nolan. It's like saying Keaton Batman was grim/dark when it was Gothic.

The trilogy isn't a interconnected universe and it was never meant to be. Watch any of the 3 films and you have a self contained complete stories. You don't need Begins to watch Dark Knight, Begins doesn't need DK nor does DKR need any other. You don't even need to know anything about Batman to enjoy any of them. Yet they can be viewed as a trilogy, it's both.

Man of Steel the first test of new DC movies post Nolan showed how DC was never going to put out a good movie. They didn't know why Donner Superman worked and grim/dark is being dark for the sake of being dark, some times literally with awful lighting. They also have no idea how to make a good movie in general. MoS first act is pointless, who cares about Krypton. All we need to know it blew up. Superman 2 doesn't setup Zod in their own act. Donner didn't need to as the title of General and his callous actions on earth informed us of who he is. His past died with Krypton as much as it was for Kent, it doesn't matter. Who cares if you see him try to start a coup, it's irrelevant.

Another big thing is Donner and Nolan doesn't punch the problem away. Supes punching a Nuke isn't helpful. Nolan has to detain Joker and sacrifices himself to stop Dent. Dent only shoots a couple people and they arguably deserve it. The threat is emotional, the legacy and justice Dent was. Joker's threat is an idea, an idea he uses to undo people. Supes doesn't punch Zod to submission, he has to be clever. The threat from Zod isn't planetary destruction with some machine of pillar of light, it's your compliance and if he has to he will personally get it.

Marvel does get around this problem somewhat by making the punching a little bit clever. They still punch alot of problem away via minions and each other but the coup de grace isn't quite that. Avenger 1 Tony "Sacrifices" to close the portal, they don't punch the portal away. Yes it is a nuke, but it is how they use the nuke is the loophole. Iron Man 1 opening is the same but reverse. Tony works towards punching the problem, the cleverness is before the punching. Nolan Batman has to be clever to solve the problem.

Superman Returns has problems but punching isn't one of them. It's why when he uses his powers it is epic and meaningful. Him having to rescue Lois is tense and it's is very real to Lois therefore is toe supes. He doesn't instantly save the day, he has to think, he has to be clever and it ends with that Donner "I will show you a man who can fly" where the crowd absolutely goes wild like it would in real life, seeing something amazing and that bleeds into the audience, it's pure. Capping it with airline safety is just amazing.

Donner, Nolan didn't make Superhero movies, they made movies that had those characters but treated them like they didn't have a cape. You would have to tone things down a fair bit but Batman could have been an ex-cop who after some trauma fights crime on his own terms yet have the same beats as N/Batman did. Superman didn't need to be Kryptonian. They use them as enhancers, visibility, to jump start the movies, waste little time on the origin story. N/Batman transcends Batman into legitimate movies as does Donner. Like Blade or Death of Stalin would you have ever guessed it came from comics if you knew nothing about them?

but that doesn't address the concern of them repeating "Thanos" vs the Avengers Justice League, only with much less build up and fanfare.

Should they still proceed with Darkseid, as stated in JL or should they swerve and do Starro or Bizarro or Braniac or whatever other big villains they got before diving straight into Darkseid?

If they can make a good movie with Darkseid, that has more reason to exist than "We planned on Darkseid showing up" then go for it. I don't think they can. I don't think they have any motivation for a new Justice League movie period.

**** Darkseid. All the above states why you shouldn't use him. They don't have anything built up, everything they have is a dumpster fire. They shouldn't even be thinking about Darkseid or crossover or any universe or huge villain.

They need to dump being edgy, epic, emo, dark and abort everything that came before. They need to stop being reactionary. They need real proper respectable directors, another Nolan to jump start DC so people actually want to see DC movies instead of rightly expecting another **** show. One they have their credibility back they can make other standalone movies and have no expectations to turn it into a trilogy or even a sequel. I cannot empathise how much any new movies has to be stand alone for them at this point.

DC transcending the genera is what would get them out of the hole they dug themselves while Marvel gleefully buries them. They need to be like Nintendo who got out of head on fights, not to tread the same ground. The animated movies shows how it can be done.
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Offline Adrock

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Those are all really solid points except I’d argue that The Dark Knight Rises needs at least The Dark Knight for context. Nolan does his best to give the audience everything it needs, just doesn’t quite get there. That’s splitting hairs though.

I don’t see how DC can fix its current dumpster fire. It has one genuinely decent movie (Wonder Woman) and one passable popcorn flick if you can ignore that it lacks nuance to the point that it doesn’t even understand Superman beyond he’s-a-strong-guy-who-flies. On YouTube, MovieBob suggests straight up Flashpoint. However, DC would be just soft rebooting everything so why go through all the trouble when the only real casualty to a hard reboot is Gal Gadot’s Wonder Woman. Yes, that sucks because she’s far and away the best and nearly only good thing about the DCEU, but that’s the cost of well, just about everything oohhboy said.

Offline Stratos

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They could always do a hard reboot but keep her cast as WW. Its a fictional universe. Treat a new WW in a new DC world similar to how MCU Hulk allows room for -without a complete retcon of- the previous Hulk film.
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Offline oohhboy

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No reason they can't keep her. Maybe it will stop their base nature to do yet another origin story.
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Offline Khushrenada

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For that matter, I kind of like that the WB movie-verse is potentially all over the place. I think they should just let different directors or producers tell the story they want with a character. If one director wanted to do a movie with Superman in a futuristic city of tomorrow in a comedy facing off against Mr. Mxyzptlk and someone else wanted to do a Nightwing movie set in the 80's in a Die Hard type situation against a contingent of the League of Assassins holding some people hostage, I say go for it. And if a third person wants to make a movie where Superman and Nightwing team-up with Martin Manhunter to stop a White Martian invasion in a sort of Twilight Zone / Invasion of the Body Snatchers atmosphere then do that to because I don't really care how they can all exist in the same universe or how they would be connected. I don't care if it is a new actor playing the same character for each of those films or the same actor playing all of the characters. It's about the story for me.

To me, most superhero characters are malleable and able to fit in a lot of genres or settings. ...I propose they follow a different Disney path. The Pixar path. Finding Nemo is a different universe than Toy Story which is a different universe than The Incredibles or Wall-E or Inside Out. They've got varying different styles and stories yet their self-contained nature does not diminish them. However, by ensuring that the end product is good for each film, it has created a brand loyalty so that people pay attention when Pixar releases a new film. It almost becomes a ritual to see the latest one. Even though they may have a clunker or two like Cars or Brave because they're unique some people can still like them and there's the knowledge that next time will be different for those who don't like it. I think DC should try and tailor their movies to that approach. I feel it could make for a very special brand of movies and be their best approach to compete with Marvel and possibly create something special like The Dark Knight did. Make it story focused and that each film tells the best story it can with that property or in the setting it's given. Don't worry about connectivity and setting up future sequels or other franchises. Keep it as self-contained as possible.

Once again, people are stealing/paying homage to my ideas:

Quote
that’s partly because DC and Warner have adopted a new strategy: Let’s rethink that whole universe thing. They’re not giving up on the idea of continuity, but they want to deemphasize the idea that all of these flicks are occupying the same space. “Our intention, certainly, moving forward is using the continuity to help make sure nothing is diverging in a way that doesn’t make sense, but there’s no insistence upon an overall story line or interconnectivity in that universe,” says Nelson, drawing nods from the top brass around her.

This new approach already has a test case, and, by any measure, it was a successful one: Wonder Woman outearned every other movie this summer while scoring a 92 percent on Rotten Tomatoes — higher than nearly every Marvel movie. And one of the keys, as Nelson and her execs saw it, was the fact that it more or less told the viewer to ignore the rest of the universe and just focus on what was in front of them. There was a tiny nod to Batman v Superman, but that was it. “The movie’s not about another movie,” says Johns. “Some of the movies do connect the characters together, like Justice League. But, like with Aquaman” — one of their next efforts, out in 2018 — “our goal is not to connect Aquaman to every movie.” As Nelson puts it, “Moving forward, you’ll see the DC movie universe being a universe, but one that comes from the heart of the filmmaker who’s creating them.”

One of the centerpieces of this new, decentralized strategy is an as-yet-unnamed side label of occasional movies that are completely separate from everything else, set entirely outside the cinematic universe. Total stand-alones based on good ideas from big-name filmmakers. Movies that are just movies, not components of a larger piece of clockwork. The first one they’re talking about is a solo outing about supervillain the Joker, set to be directed and co-written by The Hangover and War Dogs alumnus Todd Phillips. Johns says they’ll be announcing the name of of this side label “soon-ish.”

From this article: http://www.vulture.com/2017/09/dc-wonder-woman-movie-strategy-universe.html

I'd never seen that article before but it's an interesting history on DC's attempts to start matching Marvel's Entertainment efforts from about 2009 on. Now the article was published in September before Justice League came out and WB did another executive shake-up. However, despite Geoff Johns not being the president of production of DC movies along with Berg, he is still advising the new president of WB comic book movies. Reading the Vulture article I link shows how Johns has been shafted around a bit by WB and yet, despite ups and downs with his involvement, his strength is definitely in advisory capacity and writing so if they actually use those strengths, it may help them start sorting things out as they go forward. As well, the comments from WB since Justice League are still re-iterating the less shared universe stance.

Still, no one really knows what WB is planning for the future for their comic book movies. There are so many announcements and cancellations and changes on projects from the past couple years that just make the studio look like a bumbling mess tripping over itself to do something with these properties that could make it some money if they can figure out what to do with them. Personally, I've stopped paying attention to DC movie announcements at this point. Until a trailer is actually made public along with a release date then it's just rumors and gossip, so to me, the only thing WB is making right now is Aquaman (which I realize doesn't have a trailer yet but it has finished shooting so it's definitely in the pipeline) and that's it. For now, that's fine by me. Take some time to sort that division out instead of the divided state of affairs it's been in since at least 2009.

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Offline oohhboy

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LOL Aquaman. Movie is doomed.

They need to let the Joker lie low for a while. He is great and all but there are non-Joker villains that are more dangerous and insidious than he is. Clock King is one scary mofo, fights Batman to a stand still, came close to winning with nothing more than a watch, an impeccable sense of timing armed with only an umbrella.
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Offline Adrock

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They could always do a hard reboot but keep her cast as WW. Its a fictional universe. Treat a new WW in a new DC world similar to how MCU Hulk allows room for -without a complete retcon of- the previous Hulk film.
If DC hard reboots the continuity, Gal Godot as Wonder Woman would confuse people. She would be a tough yet necessary loss.

DC should skip elaborate origin stories altogether if it reboots its shared universe, even the lesser known heroes. Use a quick flashback if it’s narratively relevant (similar to how Marvel handled Thanos). One of my favorite Justice League Unlimited episodes is “The Greatest Story Never Told.” It addresses yet never dwells on Booster Gold’s origin. It’s used as a means to humble the character and teach him how to be the hero he already thinks he is. The episodes shows how much can be accomplished with very little.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 09:16:58 AM by Adrock »

Offline BranDonk Kong

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What funny is Thanos is basically Darkseid, but now it will seem like DC is ripping off Marvel. They should honestly just stop making movies...at least connected movies.
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Offline Khushrenada

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I know the idea was to have a Justice League 2 with Darkseid but the news seems to pretty much be that is cancelled since WB is not keeping Snyder around much going forward and, IIRC, they didn't even reference him in Justice League. So, there was no real major set-up for a Justice League 2 and Darkseid coming to Earth unlike BvS which tried to show a glimpse of what Darkseid coming to Earth could be. I read an article yesterday in which the writer talked about the leadership of the studio being greatly at fault in the Justice League failure. I particularly liked these lines: "It was a combination of the studio's earlier panicky, reactionary decisions, and their handling of these properties in a rush that treated this massive team-up property -- this enormous potential anchor for the future of the entire shared DC Comics IP -- like a bad piece of luggage to be hurriedly dropped by the roadside and left behind" and "Justice League was treated as a project to just dump and be rid of, instead of taking as much time as needed to get it into the best possible shape."

That's what it was. Now, although the author talked about how WB should have delayed and waited until they got it right, Justice League's budget was already at 330 million by the time it was released. They weren't going to keep waiting and ballooning the budget up more. I'm pretty sure WB knew they had a failure on their hands so they tried to cheaply fix it be having Whedon come in and hopefully work some Avenger magic on it but, otherwise, they were done spending money on it and just wanted it out and over with. Of course, then they acted shocked at how it wasn't a huge smash like The Avengers but I'm sure they already knew it wouldn't be. They didn't have much faith it in and, by the end, it also exposed how they didn't have any real goal with these properties except that they would make the studio money.

That's the big difference. Marvel had the idea of making movies like comic books. You can have different series of comic books which have different adventures and tones but there are also special events and series where the characters can team up and sort of inhabit a shared world. No studio would ever commit to a 20 picture deal or close to it like Marvel has ended up working out towards Infinity War because there is no guarantee how well it could be received and maybe the public would tire out way in advance. Even when the Lord of the Rings filmed all three of their movies at the same time, that was seen as an incredible risk by the studio because if the first one bombed then they would be stuck with two other movies that people might not see either and might be stuck with the cost of all that production. So, Marvel started off slow with Phase 1 being a lot more self-contained stand-alone films with just a little bit of crossing over in them. But after Avengers then the movies began to become a lot more of a shared universe although it still had some standalone type movies like Ant-Man.

WB didn't want to go through the long process that Marvel did. Marvel proved that comic book heroes make money so just get to the team-up and make bank. They wanted it done in about 3 movies. Batman's already a draw thanks to the Nolan trilogy so introduce Superman in Man of Steel. There's that big name. Have the two face off while introducing Wonder Woman and begin the shared universe and then have Justice League next so that like The Avengers they can instantly start raking in that cash as well. That's what the WB plan has been. Rush to the Justice League to become a big money making studio like Disney. Problem was that in the rush to get to Justice League quickly the first few movies were heavily criticized and they didn't have much of a plan after that of what to do with these properties or what the goal of releasing all these various DC properties was except to become more franchises the studio could count on making instant money for them. Sure, Snyder obviously had a bit of planning about the future of the DCU and where to take things but even that, I think, was limited in any major plan for each individual character. When they finally got to release Justice League, it just exposed how their was no major purpose to this endeavor except to try and cash in on these superhero properties. Once that cash didn't really come with Justice League, now they've begun to realize that it isn't such an easy thing to replicate or that these movies are guaranteed to succeed because it is a comic book movie.

The great push/pull of movies is artistic vision vs commercial appeal. What the DCU movie experience shows is that the main existence and purpose of it was to make money. There was no creative reason for the movies to exist. At least, nothing that the studio executives in charge of this division seemed to think about or care about. It's why they didn't really bother getting much input from the comic side of the business or value their opinion much in the process of making these films. I don't know what they based their quality control on but I think as long as the scripts met their basic idea of what a superhero movie should be or if it compared well to the Nolan trilogy then they just went with it. Marvel movies exist to make money as well. It's as much to bolster the brand and sell other merchandise as it is to entertain. But, to their credit, at least they try to make sure their movies entertain the fans of those characters and have them perform the superheroics they want to see from these characters. It's a chance to adapt some of the popular stories from their comic history and they have a bit of a narrative of where they want to take these characters in this interconnected universe. Where they've failed sometime is in telling a stand-alone story by getting too bogged down in trying to set up future events and movies or just having a pretty weak story in the first place. Sometimes it has been in the deviation of a character like The Manderin though that can be mixed. Likewise the deviation from comic to movie was mixed for Superman and Batman in the DCU but that didn't necessarily doom the films. It was a combination of poorly told stories, deviations from the source, the copying of tone from the Nolan trilogy like that was why it was successful and no creative purpose for the films to exist. Nolan and his brother obviously wanted to make a Batman movie and wanted to get involved in that world. It comes across in their films. Snyder may have had some vision for these characters but did he have any major goal in creating the films that he did or was it more that he wanted the paycheck and being in charge of a possibly major studio division/project?

But that's enough rambling from me. That's my take on what WB/DC need to ask and figure out when moving forward on their plans. What is the goal? If it's to just make money, that can still work. But it requires a better understanding of the product then they've currently shown. It's also why comic book movies still aren't going to be taken that seriously by critics or the industry aside from the box office totals they do or don't rake in and worrying about the effect they have on movie audiences by making it harder for smaller films to survive.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 07:43:39 PM by Linkle Link »
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Offline Khushrenada

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Also, as a quick aside, I'm not a big fan of Darkseid as a major movie villain. The only writer I think who ever made Darkseid an interesting and worthwhile foe was Grant Morrison. I've never really read the early Jack Kirby stuff to know how it compares but Darkseid generally is kind of a one note villain in other writers hands. Even in the Superman Animated Series, Darkseid was treated as the biggest threat of the Superman villains but he was just so-so in that as well. I don't care if he's thrown on the backburner of the WB movie plans for years to come.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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I'm pretty sure the Big Bad (Steppenwolf?) in JL was saying that Darkseid was coming, and that's why he was collecting Mother Boxes or something.... right?

I was a little tipsy when I watched it. But I thought he was like the World Prepper for Darkseid's arrival.

Offline oohhboy

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I'm pretty sure the Big Bad (Steppenwolf?) in JL was saying that Darkseid was coming, and that's why he was collecting Mother Boxes or something.... right?

I was a little tipsy when I watched it. But I thought he was like the World Prepper for Darkseid's arrival.
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Offline Shorty McNostril

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Yeah he was name dropped once.

It's almost like Joss Whedon was trying to do WB a favour by removing all expectations for future movies in that universe.

Offline Khushrenada

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Ha ha ha! Yeah and or WB knew they were closing the book on the Snyder vision so they just shut down trying to set up more of his path.

That reminds me. I never did say much about Justice League because when I decided to take the plunge and check it out I was in the middle of a move and didn't have internet but my main take away was lukewarm. I didn't hate it nor did I really love it. It had elements that showed a potential for a great movie and other elements that were pretty dumb and hokey. (The family in Russia just waiting for the League to save them from the para-demons, for instance.) Ironically, despite not featuring him in any of the advertisements for the film, Superman seemed to be the star of the show and I felt it was the first time in three tries that WB was actually kind of successful in their handling of Superman. In fact, the Superman element is probably the biggest reason why I'd ever watch that movie again. When Superman wasn't on screen, all the characters seemed to wonder, where's Poochy Superman and how much they need him. The League verses Superman battle was the moment when I was actually happy this movie existed.


In the end, Superman kind of outshone the League in the Steppenwolf battle and didn't really seem to need the others that much. Outdid Flash in saving people and easily went toe-to-toe against Steppenwolf and pretty much removed any threat the character had up to that point. Although that probably works counter to the idea and premise of the movie because why do you need a League if Superman can do it all? The only thing I was kind of surprised and disappointed about was that, during the Superman vs the League battle, Barry didn't somehow get briefly flung back in time or ran into the past to tell Bruce to find Lois like how he did by suddenly showing up in BvS with that warning. It was at that point I realized this movie probably didn't care that much about trying to stick with whatever Snyder had planned but it still bugged me that such an easy connection between the movies couldn't have been made.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 12:14:36 AM by Linkle Link »
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Gotham gets renewed for a 5th and Final (:() season
http://deadline.com/2018/05/gotham-renewed-fifth-final-season-fox-new-superhero-1202384012/

building of the Bat.

Offline oohhboy

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Gotham gets renewed for a 5th and Final ( :( ) season
http://deadline.com/2018/05/gotham-renewed-fifth-final-season-fox-new-superhero-1202384012/

building of the Bat.
Better to go out on top.
I never watched it. I wasn't interested in Back story: The Series.
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Offline Khushrenada

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How old is Bruce currently in the show?
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Gotham gets renewed for a 5th and Final ( :( ) season
http://deadline.com/2018/05/gotham-renewed-fifth-final-season-fox-new-superhero-1202384012/

building of the Bat.
Better to go out on top.
I never watched it. I wasn't interested in Back story: The Series.


It's actually highly entertaining, once you just accept it for what it is, and bask in it's beautifully shot cinematography.

How old is Bruce currently in the show?


I would guess around 16 or so...? He is seen driving at one point or another.

Offline Khushrenada

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So, they're going to wrap up by making him Batman when he's about 17?

Yeah, I'm glad I skipped out on this even though BnM has always been the one person I've seen be positive about the show to keep me interested.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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they could time skip... or not quite Batman at the end, but on the path to become the Dark Knight.
I don't know. But I really enjoy the show. It's crazy, silly, ridiculously campy, and fun.

And for not having the actual "Joker" they sure had the best live action "Joker" so far.

Parts of it are stupid. but like I said before, you have to buy in, especially starting early in the 2nd season where it just kinda jumps off the rails and never looks back.

Offline ThePerm

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Gal Gadot is DCs Hugh Jackman. They could just keep her around and CHANGE EVERYTHING ABOUT THE REST OF EVERYTHING.

Maybe not bother so much with good continuity until they iron out what is going on with the rest of the characters. It works for James Bond movies.  Q and M were the same people, but Bond changed a few times. There is even a precedent. Alfred was played by Michael Gough for the first 4 movies. There were 3 different Bruce Waynes.

We'll just have to see what Matt Reeves does unless he gets fired. Hasn't The Batman been in development hell for almost 3 years now?

If I were making a Batman movie I'd just make a Mr. Freeze movie that is an adaptation of Heart of Ice. It's too bad Michael Ansara is dead because I just watched Soldier from The Outer Limits the other day and he was quite physically imposing. My first choice for Freeze right now would be Matt Frewer.  Peter Weller would be good too, or maybe Ed Harris. Or someone who isn't already bald who is a great actor. Lawrence Fishburn? Sometimes it's good to stretch the role a bit. Michael Keaton was excellent as The Vulture. Keanu Reeves? Alex Winter? I'd probably redesign the suit to look more like an EVA suit.


« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 02:54:04 AM by ThePerm »
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Offline oohhboy

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It's actually highly entertaining, once you just accept it for what it is, and bask in it's beautifully shot cinematography.
Not saying it is a bad show at all and probably quite fine. I watched a little and came to the conclusion that this is something that I neither need or want. It is it's own thing, it doesn't insist on itself, it doesn't barge in on some other continuity begging for viewers and validation.

It's not aggressively selling a clearly dead dog rotting in the sun as a bike. It's just selling a bike as a bike. The thing I would change is calling it Gotham Police and ignore Bruce existence/journey as it is really uninteresting time drain. A beat cop dealing with Gotham level crazy crime is more than enough.
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Offline Plugabugz

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Lucifer has been cancelled, and that kinda annoys me.