Author Topic: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!  (Read 31047 times)

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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!
« Reply #50 on: August 13, 2013, 09:16:25 AM »
Well, that's because GameStop *does* suck.

This may not as much be an example of it (although if they really did *open* sealed games just to sell them at a higher price, *that* is an example of them sucking.  Seriously, sell them at the higher price all you want, but keep them sealed!), there are plenty of reasons why GameStop sucks.
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!
« Reply #51 on: August 13, 2013, 09:29:43 AM »
They may have removed the plastic because they would have gotten in trouble with Nintendo for selling new copies for that much. But really, I'm with UncleBob, GameStop is a shitty, shitty company, so this whole thing shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!
« Reply #52 on: August 13, 2013, 09:52:54 AM »
Except that, officially, you can't "get in trouble" with Nintendo for selling stuff above MSRP.

Nintendo learned that back in the 80's.  Where have you been? :D
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!
« Reply #54 on: August 13, 2013, 11:12:13 AM »
Except that, officially, you can't "get in trouble" with Nintendo for selling stuff above MSRP.

Nintendo learned that back in the 80's.  Where have you been? :D

He's been busy taking the plastic off a bunch of copies of Xenoblade so Gamestop can sell them as used. It took a while. That plastic is hard to get off.
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Offline marty

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Re: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!
« Reply #55 on: August 13, 2013, 11:35:50 AM »
GS had a complete monopoly on new retail shop sales as well a majority control of the used market.  The game was never released in a competitive market so free market economics don't apply.  Those claiming "economics" really should a)stop b)learn more about economics.

Offline shingi_70

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Re: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!
« Reply #56 on: August 13, 2013, 11:45:32 AM »
I blame Nintendo for not having a gamecube/Wii VC in the works. (as far as we know mind you). That would have been one of the first things I would announced even if it wouldn't be ready for a year.
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Offline Oblivion

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Re: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!
« Reply #57 on: August 13, 2013, 12:16:39 PM »
GS had a complete monopoly on new retail shop sales as well a majority control of the used market.  The game was never released in a competitive market so free market economics don't apply.  Those claiming "economics" really should a)stop b)learn more about economics.


Wrong. It's simply supply and demand. There's a small selection of the game and a huge demand for it, so they charge a premium. If they had a hundred million copies and/or not a huge demand, it wouldn't be $90. Being the official retailer doesn't matter in this point because a lot people want this game and they don't have very many of them.


And considering you can get the game used in many online markets, I wouldn't say they have a major control over the used market.

Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!
« Reply #58 on: August 13, 2013, 12:29:24 PM »
Gamestop doesn't have a monopoly on the used market and since you could buy the game online from Nintendo directly they didn't truly have a monopoly on the new version of Xenoblade either.

Nintendo can't legally come after them for this but if they honestly withheld copies for this purchase, do they think Nintendo is going to want to make an exclusive deal like this again?  Maybe the next batch of pre-order goodies goes to Best Buy or Toys 'R' Us.  And the hell that Gamestop will ever get a Nintendo exclusive again.

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!
« Reply #59 on: August 13, 2013, 01:32:28 PM »
Well, that's because GameStop *does* suck.

This may not as much be an example of it (although if they really did *open* sealed games just to sell them at a higher price, *that* is an example of them sucking.  Seriously, sell them at the higher price all you want, but keep them sealed!), there are plenty of reasons why GameStop sucks.
officially
Here's the thing though, If GS *is* pulling something, it doesn't matter if they took the plastic off or not.  They'll still face the wrath of Nintendo.
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Offline marty

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Re: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!
« Reply #60 on: August 13, 2013, 02:44:38 PM »
@ oblivion,
first, I think you're out of your depth.  Maybe take a few economics courses and learn what supply and demand are and what economics is.  writing "wrong" and following it up with argumentative bs is just rude.  take it down a notch if you think I'm wrong and prepare a real argument.  I hate to judge too harshly but I don't think you know what you're talking about.


second, the fact that GS seems to have artificially manipulated scarcity by withholding supply means that the market could never have achieved equilibrium. The principals of supply and demand ("economics") never came into play.


third, GS clearly has great control over all new sales and overall supply.  That fact alone means they have great influence on the used market even before considering they are they are the leading used game retailer.  GS made 2 billion dollars last year in used game sales, from the figures I've read.  Is any other brick and mortar store doing that kind of business?  Not that I've read.  Feel free to post whatever used videogame sales figures from any specific online used game retailer if you want contend that GS isn't the major player in the used game market.


fourth, supply and demand is an economic model.  if there was a demand for something at a price with a higher profit margin, supply will increase.  That's what supply and demand means.  The fact that when demand for XC was highest, the price was $50.  Saying there is more of a demand now, when the price is higher, than when the game was selling new, when the price was lower, is wrong and does not fit the supply and demand model AT ALL.  Supply falls as the price drops.  Demand increases as the price drops.  Supply increases as the price increases.  Demand falls as the price increases.  Supply and demand meet at a price.  Is that what's happening? NO, so stop saying supply and demand.  It doesn't apply.


Even if XC were following anything resembling free-market behavior, I doubt you'd find anyone that knew about economics to cite it as a good example of normal economic behavior considering that it's release at all is not representative of how videogames are sold or how the videogame market, at large, operates.

Offline marty

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Re: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!
« Reply #61 on: August 13, 2013, 02:49:07 PM »
Gamestop doesn't have a monopoly on the used market and since you could buy the game online from Nintendo directly they didn't truly have a monopoly on the new version of Xenoblade either.
I never said they had a monopoly on the used market, they just control a large portion of it.
I never said they had a monopoly on the new market for XC, just that they had a monopoly of the offline retail market

Offline pokepal148

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Re: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!
« Reply #62 on: August 13, 2013, 03:20:59 PM »
At least you can trade in some crud(so long mk7) to bring the price down to a reasonable 50$.

Or take advantage of the next buy two get one free sales that always wind up centralizing on pre-owned games in order to average it out that way.

Seriously i have not played this game and i am thrilled to have an opportunity. this may be another sleezy move by gamestop but it still beats the thread namesake by a long shot.

Offline Oblivion

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Re: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!
« Reply #63 on: August 13, 2013, 08:15:15 PM »
@ oblivion,
first, I think you're out of your depth.  Maybe take a few economics courses and learn what supply and demand are and what economics is.  writing "wrong" and following it up with argumentative bs is just rude.  take it down a notch if you think I'm wrong and prepare a real argument.  I hate to judge too harshly but I don't think you know what you're talking about.


Is this anger the same anger you guys felt when I told you guys to take a few debate classes? Jesus dude, **** you. Nothing of what I said warranted that kind of response besides the one I'm giving you now.



Offline marty

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Re: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!
« Reply #65 on: August 13, 2013, 09:57:47 PM »
@ oblivion,
first, I think you're out of your depth.  Maybe take a few economics courses and learn what supply and demand are and what economics is.  writing "wrong" and following it up with argumentative bs is just rude.  take it down a notch if you think I'm wrong and prepare a real argument.  I hate to judge too harshly but I don't think you know what you're talking about.


Is this anger the same anger you guys felt when I told you guys to take a few debate classes? Jesus dude, **** you. Nothing of what I said warranted that kind of response besides the one I'm giving you now.
anger? nope.  I wrote a level-headed response to you pointing out exactly why it's wrong for you, or anyone, to cite "economics" or "supply and demand" as some sort of valid appraisal of the GS/XC situation.  I also pointed out that it's simply rude to write "wrong" and then try and bs you way through an argument.  I did this without ad hominem, insult, or rudeness. 


I don't know what you're trying to prove by being rude now.  Why not just concede that "economics" and "supply and demand" are not good responses for the reasons I stated--or any number of other, valid reasons, and move on?  Or actually debate that "economics" and "supply and demand" are valid response with actual facts and knowledge?  Or show some humility and civility?  If all you have to offer is snark and rudeness, you're not worth engaging.  You call, obviously.  Good luck!

Offline nickmitch

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Re: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!
« Reply #66 on: August 13, 2013, 11:03:04 PM »
GS made 2 billion dollars last year in used game sales, from the figures I've read.  Is any other brick and mortar store doing that kind of business?  Not that I've read.  Feel free to post whatever used videogame sales figures from any specific online used game retailer if you want contend that GS isn't the major player in the used game market.

Just going to note here that GameStop's Net Income for FY12 was a $270M loss. But they did have a massive goodwill impairment, and their EBITDA is more like $800M. Either way, it's hard to say the company "made" $2B on anything.

Quote
fourth, supply and demand is an economic model.  if there was a demand for something at a price with a higher profit margin, supply will increase.  That's what supply and demand means.  The fact that when demand for XC was highest, the price was $50.  Saying there is more of a demand now, when the price is higher, than when the game was selling new, when the price was lower, is wrong and does not fit the supply and demand model AT ALL.  Supply falls as the price drops.  Demand increases as the price drops.  Supply increases as the price increases.  Demand falls as the price increases.  Supply and demand meet at a price.  Is that what's happening? NO, so stop saying supply and demand.  It doesn't apply.

Videogames typically have fixed prices because publishers artificially set them that way. The price was never meant to move. You seem to have a grasp of basic economic theory, but the truth is that things rarely work out that way. The supply that a seller is willing to provide falls as the price drops, sure. But the actual amount of available units was never that high to begin with. And to defend GS, one theory is that they're publishing more copies themselves because they can sell them for $90 a pop. That's your supply curve. Further, there's way more things that determine demand than just the price, including artificial scarcity. (Which is the future, BTW)






« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 11:11:32 PM by nickmitch »
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Offline marty

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Re: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!
« Reply #67 on: August 14, 2013, 12:51:31 AM »
Just going to note here that GameStop's Net Income for FY12 was a $270M loss. But they did have a massive goodwill impairment, and their EBITDA is more like $800M. Either way, it's hard to say the company "made" $2B on anything.
The $2B is an estimate I've seen repeatedly over the last few years and I can't vouch for how accurate it is, but I can see how the low cost of used games vs their resale price provides a very attractive return.  I know GS has their problems but their revenue for FY12 was over $8.5B--how much of that was from used game sales I can't say for sure (a familiar estimate was 75%).  "made" might not be most accurate word. Estimated net worth of GS used game sales might be a better term, if similarly vague.  Overall profitability aside, I still can't see any way around acknowledging that GS is the big-dog in the used game market, especially when it comes to offline retail.
Quote
Videogames typically have fixed prices because publishers artificially set them that way. The price was never meant to move. You seem to have a grasp of basic economic theory, but the truth is that things rarely work out that way. The supply that a seller is willing to provide falls as the price drops, sure. But the actual amount of available units was never that high to begin with. And to defend GS, one theory is that they're publishing more copies themselves because they can sell them for $90 a pop. That's your supply curve. Further, there's way more things that determine demand than just the price, including artificial scarcity. (Which is the future, BTW)
There's a LOT of things going on in the videogame biz that prevent fair markets from existing while still allowing for certain economic principals to be applicable at some level.  My basic point is that people should stop using "economics" and "supply and demand" as catch-all terms when discussing sales of 1 game in a larger video-game market-- especially when the game was released in a way that prevented competition which would allow/force the sales to follow basic market supply and demand curves AND it isn't even remotely representative of how videogames are sold in the US.

Offline lolmonade

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Re: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!
« Reply #68 on: August 14, 2013, 12:00:47 PM »
..but supply and demand does play a large part of why Gamestop can set such a high price-point and most likely get away with it.  Yes, it's true that Gamestop was the exclusive retailer carrying it besides Nintendo, but that doesn't change the fact that there was limited quantities available at time of purchase, there was demand for the product spurred by the good reviews/press it got, and then lead to $400 used copies floating around on the internet.
 
Assumedly, Gamestop saw an opportunity, either "found" extra copies or had additional pressed, and marked them as used because they can.  They can fix prices any way they'd like on used copies, and once Gamestop purchases copies from the manufacturer, I imagine they're well within their rights to sell them as either "new' or "used", whichever nets them the most benefit.
 
In turn, as much as this is ruffling everyone's feathers, more supply will reduce the resale value of these games, so they are inadvertently helping those who might consider trying to find the game down the line.
 
At the end of the day, the anger should be directed towards Nintendo, not Gamestop, for encouraging this type of behavior.  Gamestop's behavior is a symptom of Nintendo not producing enough of the product to meet demand, and then themselves not jumping on the opportunity to release pent-up demand.

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!
« Reply #69 on: August 14, 2013, 12:59:52 PM »
Nintendo produces to meet retailer demand.  Generally.
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Offline marty

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Re: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!
« Reply #70 on: August 14, 2013, 05:30:40 PM »
..but supply and demand does play a large part of why Gamestop can set such a high price-point and most likely get away with it.  Yes, it's true that Gamestop was the exclusive retailer carrying it besides Nintendo, but that doesn't change the fact that there was limited quantities available at time of purchase, there was demand for the product spurred by the good reviews/press it got, and then lead to $400 used copies floating around on the internet.


Assumedly, Gamestop saw an opportunity, either "found" extra copies or had additional pressed, and marked them as used because they can.  They can fix prices any way they'd like on used copies, and once Gamestop purchases copies from the manufacturer, I imagine they're well within their rights to sell them as either "new' or "used", whichever nets them the most benefit.
It's simply unhelpful to assess a portion of such a small, short term case with the language and tools used to describe long-term behavior.  It's like watching a scoreless inning of baseball and saying that both pitchers have a MLB lifetime ERA of 0.  Even that were true, it's not helpful because the stat doesn't explain the context of why it's true.  Both pitchers could have just come up from the minors or any number of possibilities that would explain why an extremely rare behavior of statistics would agree with a poorly formed assumption.


Yes, if one ignores reason, market history, and the principals economic theory is founded on, he can declare that the used $90 disk just put up for sale found its price through "supply and demand."  Just realize that he's not saying anything of any substance or accuracy when he does.  Taking into account the exclusivity, lack of competition in the used market, Nintendo's complacency and general lack of motivation to sell the game (the odd release seems to suggest that they're not trying to maximize their own profitability--at least not through sales numbers) and the overall picture is not one of a healthy market where price is settled on by supply and demand--it's appears corrupted by market manipulation through artificial scarcity and price fixing.
Quote
In turn, as much as this is ruffling everyone's feathers, more supply will reduce the resale value of these games, so they are inadvertently helping those who might consider trying to find the game down the line.
 
At the end of the day, the anger should be directed towards Nintendo, not Gamestop, for encouraging this type of behavior.  Gamestop's behavior is a symptom of Nintendo not producing enough of the product to meet demand, and then themselves not jumping on the opportunity to release pent-up demand.
well, no disagreement there.

Offline nickmitch

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Re: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!
« Reply #71 on: August 14, 2013, 11:03:11 PM »
Supply goes up as price goes up. GS saw the price (probably on eBay) was going up, so they increased the supply. Simple as that. Saying they're a monopoly just means that they can dictate the price (which they did). So, there's that. Marty, I get your point about using catch-all terms, but put the most simple way: GameStop can charge $90 for that game because people will pay it. The demand for that game doesn't seem particularly price elastic.

Just going to note here that GameStop's Net Income for FY12 was a $270M loss. But they did have a massive goodwill impairment, and their EBITDA is more like $800M. Either way, it's hard to say the company "made" $2B on anything.
The $2B is an estimate I've seen repeatedly over the last few years and I can't vouch for how accurate it is, but I can see how the low cost of used games vs their resale price provides a very attractive return.  I know GS has their problems but their revenue for FY12 was over $8.5B--how much of that was from used game sales I can't say for sure (a familiar estimate was 75%).  "made" might not be most accurate word. Estimated net worth of GS used game sales might be a better term, if similarly vague.  Overall profitability aside, I still can't see any way around acknowledging that GS is the big-dog in the used game market, especially when it comes to offline retail.


A familiar estimate, you say? Because GameStop's financial statements say 27.4%. They gross about $1.2B for used sales.

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Offline lolmonade

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Re: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!
« Reply #72 on: August 15, 2013, 01:01:05 PM »
Nintendo produces to meet retailer demand.  Generally.

You make a good point that Nintendo's customer is typically the retail outlet that sells the game to the end-user, but in Xenoblade's case, they offered it only through Gamestop or Nintendo's website.
 
If Nintendo really wanted to blow a hole in Gamestop's sails, they offer it on their website at retail price in another limited run of copies of the game.

Offline Retro Deckades

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Re: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!
« Reply #73 on: August 15, 2013, 02:08:43 PM »
Why can't Nintendo take pre-orders for the reprinting of a game like Xenoblade Chronicles through their own website? Wouldn't they then be able to determine whether or not the demand exists and if a reprint would be worth it?

Offline Oblivion

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Re: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!
« Reply #74 on: August 15, 2013, 02:53:26 PM »
Because this isn't a big deal to them or Gamestop.