Author Topic: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back  (Read 28992 times)

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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: EDITORIALS: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2009, 04:01:19 PM »
How exactly should they discourage bad games? Their third party relationships are fragile, if they just went and said "we think you've made garbage, you aren't allowed to release that" the third party would get massively pissed and unwilling to risk making another game for the Wii if it can just get rejected. And hell, with the volume of shovelware the system is getting (seems to have absorbed the PS2's shovelware development and maybe a part of the GBA/DS's, remember you didn't see those titles in the US because SCEA was a very draconian company that would reject many games, including good ones) rejections would either be very inconsistent (making companies wonder why it happened to them and not the others) or cover like half the releases.

They could do something against 1-2 really bad games but stemming against this onslaught would just make third parties angry. The crapflood happens to any system that's in first place, it's not some unusual situation on the Wii.

Offline D_Average

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Re: EDITORIALS: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2009, 04:01:28 PM »
Can't say I'm enthusiastic about the Wii's upcoming lineup, but I can say the same for the PS3. Aside from RE5 in March, there's nothin' for me.

Waaah!??  What about our precious Fat Princess, she'll be here in just a couple months!!!
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Offline Urkel

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Re: EDITORIALS: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2009, 04:08:13 PM »
The Gamecube saw fewer bad games because third parties decided not to make any games for it in the first place. Things were just as bad on the NES, and that was with a stricter 5 games a year limit.

Speaking of Super Monkey Ball specifically, Nintendo was in no position at that time to play hard ball with 3rd parties. They got the reputation of being unfriendly to 3rd parties since the NES days, and the last thing they needed to do was piss off a company like Sega by delaying a their launch game.
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: EDITORIALS: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2009, 04:09:29 PM »
Quote
Nintendo is fat, dumb, and happy.

Personal insults are against forum rules. LULZ

I like the fact this isn't hidden away in the staff blogs.

Offline MegaByte

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Re: EDITORIALS: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2009, 04:10:41 PM »
Is there a reason this is an editorial as opposed to a blog?
This was an oversight that has been fixed.
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2009, 04:25:28 PM »
crap now it is hidden away in staff blogs.

Offline vudu

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Re: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2009, 04:41:13 PM »
How many games outside of Nintendo's stable are making up that high attach rate?  If I were to suggest that out of a six-game attach rate, those games are likely to be Wii Play (because of the cheap Wii-mote), Super Mario Galaxy, Twilight Princess, Wii Fit, Metroid, and Mario Kart ... how happy do you think third-parties are likely to be with that?  49% of all software sold in 2008 was for a Nintendo platform.  And how much of that was made by Nintendo?  Give me that number, and I'll think about conceding your point.

As Kairon already said, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Nintendo fans will purchase quality games that are marketed correctly.  You can't honestly blame us for not buying crap, can you?  And you can't fault us for ignoring well-made games if the publisher doesn't advertise them.

Guitar Hero III and Guitar Hero World Tour sell the best on Wii, despite being arguably the worst version of the game.  We bought RE4 by the truck-load and that was a port of a 2-year old GCN game.  Okami sold just as well on Wii as it did on PS2 despite the large difference in established user-base.  I believe Shawn White on Wii outsold all other platforms combined (fact check, please).

Did we largely ignore Bloom Blox despite the fact that it's a highly acclaimed title?  Yes.  Why?  Because EA didn't bother to advertise the game.  Same goes for Zack & Wiki.  Casual users don't actively seek out up-coming games.  If no one tells them Steven Speilberg has a new game out no one's going to buy it.

Additionally, the Nintendo's approach to evergreen gaming has changed the way we look at sales charts.  When Wii Music launched in October it sold less than 100K copies.  Everyone declared it a flop.  Since then the game has gone on to sell over a million copies (and it's still selling!).  Boom Blox, has sold over 600K copies since launch (based solely on word of mouth and awesome cover art), despite selling less than 50K copies when it launched in May.

Nintendo fans are exactly the same as Xbox 360 and PS3 fans--they'll buy games that appeal to them.  You can't stealthfully launch a sub-par product and expect it to sell like hotcakes.
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Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2009, 04:53:07 PM »
crap now it is hidden away in staff blogs.

We now post blogs as headlines on the front page, so they aren't hidden any more.
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Offline Plugabugz

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Re: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2009, 05:01:20 PM »
By targeting a new market nintendo have detached themselves from the original issues that "existing gamers" have and presented themselves with a whole new boat of challenges. I think their legend of oo prototype is their attempt to tackle the bridge.

I'm gonna get killed for this reference but things like Mario Kart DS (and even New Super Mario Bros) can be compared to Amy Winehouse's Back to Black: years later it's still selling.

Offline TheYoungerPlumber

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Re: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2009, 05:19:19 PM »
Frankly, the NOA 2008 DS lineup is the far better example of Nintendo being fat and lazy lately. I agree that Nintendo has done a lot with the Wii, but right now they do appear to be coasting.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2009, 05:33:28 PM »
I wouldn't call publishing a niche title like Sin and Punishment 2 coasting or bringing back a long anticipated franchise like Punch Out. Heck they even have a sequel to Endless Ocean in the works, not to mention that space exploration game. Sure they aren't so called "hardcore" games but they still are games (with Endless Ocean being one of my favorites). Not only that but they no doubt have Pikmin 3 in development along with their other established franchises. 2008 wasn't coasting when you have big titles like SSB:B, Mario Kart Wii, Wii Fit, Wario Land, and yes Animal Crossing all coming out within the year. Sure they may not all appeal to you but it isn't a sign of coasting. I think the dry spells in 2008 were more to do with poor planning (or planning more around Japan). Just because you don't like some of their more casual titles doesn't automatically mean they are just cruising right along doing nothing.
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Offline UltimatePartyBear

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Re: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2009, 05:54:47 PM »
And while it's not Wii-related, I suspect we're going to start seeing articles like this one about Wii Fit or Wii Sports soon as well.  Mostly due to Nintendo being a huge target, but there's some glimmers of truth here.  http://ds.ign.com/articles/948/948080p1.html

That article is one of the worst things I've ever read.  First of all, the researcher is a psychologist.  I have nothing against psychologists, but they aren't neuroscientists, unlike Ryuta Kawashima.  Cognitive psychology is about stuff like problem solving.  Brain Age doesn't have any problem solving.  Brain Age doesn't claim to improve problem solving skills.  Brain Age is about improving the health of your brain, not learning.

Second, he tested a group of ten year olds.  Brain Age is for adults!  The best possible brain age score is twenty.  That's twice ten, for any psychologists who may be reading this.  Nothing about Brain Age should have made anyone think it was supposed to help little Billy with his math homework, unless perhaps little Billy is in kindergarten, but a group of ten year olds still in kindergarten would have a different set of problems that Brain Age still isn't meant to help with.

The fact that this guy used the word "charlatanism" to describe it is hypocrisy at its finest.

Offline OptimusPrime

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Re: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2009, 05:57:46 PM »
First, Hi, I posted in some ancient time once, but i mostly read this site because of the great forums mostly. Now I'm used of the arguments Rick uses on other forums, but here...it feels like sacrilige...if i only believed in such thing.

Second, there is a premise with the Wii no one should forget in an attempt of analyzing it: it's a disruptive product. Now i'm not going to go malstrom on all of you, but I am using the Disruptive theory as perspective in my thesis about the history of videogames...and I live in Belgium for those wondering (it's next to the big german nation which brought birth to KDR). Now being a disruptive product, this has a couple of implications.
1) Analysts and journalists will become useless because of the new markets being tapped, the new values and processes being used and so forth. Everything is tipsyturvy so using any kind of traditional or classical way of analyzing the market must be trown overboard. The comments of the n-Space president around the Winter game supports this. Third parties still being unable to figure out the Wii in general supports this, Nintendo being the only one succesfull supports this.
2) The keyword concept is: chain value-system. The chain value-system of the gaming industry is being forcilly changed by Nintendo by the most powerful force that humanity has created : market forces, the second one being demographics, but that's another story. The problem is, the gaming industry is a content-driven industry and Nintendo isn't the only content-provider, there are a lot of content providers here. So to drive a console as a product, you need content, you need conent providers. because Nintendo is the one that launched this new chain value-system, it is the most adapted to the new values and processes to products (games, content) in accordance to this system. Here comes the problem: third parties aren't!

Now you could say: that put's the blame on third parties for the 100% and you would be right. Third parties are companies, companies need to make profit to keep existing. Since the old system is being replaced, these companies must prepare for the new one, they haven't so now they're in big **** with some exceptions (Ubisoft, Atlus, Marvelous ect.). That's the pure market-driven perspective.
You could also say, that puts the blame on Nintendo and third parties. Nintendo is forcing a new system on the market, maybe it should have warned us...no wait...it did! Now to be fair, being warned of a tidal wave that will flood everything while you're behind a mountain range so you won't see it coming and well, you're behind a bloody mountain range, it can't flood over those mountains right? That's the more nuanced "yeah, but" market-driven perspective...let's give Nintendo some indirect blame, but the grand majority lies with third parties in the end.

And then you have the conservative old fart perspective about "the good old days" which...has never won in the course of history. But it does have a social purpose of buffering in the people's grievances about change so they don't go into a bloody riot if these grievances can be vented into a politcial-social place of significance (parlements are a prime example of this).

Weaknesses in Nintendo's strategy are however
1) Nintendo has practically always counted on other developers to make more "mature" content be it by second or third parties. However Nintendo seems to forget that third parties are mindless sheep (thank you marketing and financial departments) and follow the first and second parties and Nintendo's second party collection is a bit slim this generation. Combine this with third parties absolute lack of adapting to the new value-chain and some pseudo-hardcore gamers (pseudo-hardcore gamers are gamers that see themselves as hardcore but dismiss a type or several types of gaming therefore abondoning the one crucial feature of a hard-core gamer: loving gaming in all its forms) arbitrary defining some games as now casual (banjo-kazooie is suddenly a casual game...what?) which distorts the perception of the social acceptance pre-requisites of belonging to the status-group of "real" gamers.

I will say that averages are indeed useless without additional info like quarter averages and others, but this also makes attach-rates useless (as they are a average). However, the NPD article actually also confirms that third parties are not adapting (or refusing to adapt) to the Wii value-system. Nintendo is the best adapted so they will make the best content on the Wii receiving the best sales. If third parties adapt well enough, they will taste the same succes.

But then I also like to introduce the concept of the game-platform-compatability grid which third parties also suck at in general. This concept declares that a game in development has certain factors involved in its development (budget, man-power, concept, function, technology) which creates a natural compatabilityfor certain platforms in accordance to their charateristics (specs, market share, marketstrategy, , marketperception, oppurtunities ect.) it should be released on. In other words, a game should be released on the platform(s), taken into accounts the factors of game and platforms, it makes the most sense to increase market potential.
No More Heroes should have launched on the Wii and/or DS using this grid. Marvelous does not have the budget for HD-projects and Suda51 puts too much freaky stuff into it. Even if the money was there to make NMH into a HD-game it will have bombed on the the HD-consoles because of the punk character (Killer 7, Viewtifull Joe, Toe Jam and Early, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Beyond Good & Evil have all proven that the Sony and MS audiences do not buy quirky punk games). On the Wii it had a chance to be actually made and be profitable.

What I don't like is the lack of flak to the other side. But offcourse that requires thinking in scenario's nobody likes to think in. I'll give a nice example. Now the EU is getting quite a bit of flak because Turkey (a mostly islamic country, and a rather big one too) is going trough the procedure of becoming an EU-member (aka Turkey incoporating every bit of EU-law there is with no questions allowed to be asked...they call this the negociations phase...bit euphimistic though). Now the public opinion in a lot EU-countries is against this (including my own and Germany's), but the country with a actual beef against Turkey is Greek-Cyprus. Now, EU-law consist of 36 chapters ad these chapters are integrated into a future EU-member one at a time during these negociations. Every EU-member has a veto to stop the membership procedure before opening and closing each of these chapters...so every country has 77 possiblities to veto this procedure. Not one EU-country has used this veto so far and Turkey has advanced quite a few chapters already. Why?
1) the EU has no administrative and legislative reason to refuse Turkey, Turkey abides to all the norms and requirements (hell, the EU even invented a couple just for Turkey, Turkey adapted itself).
2) refusing Turkey opens up a very nasty scenario, one where the radical moslim-groups inside turkey take power, so instead of a reasonable stable islamic democracy on its border, the EU suddenly has a radical islamic country on its border with a full-fledged army and acces to several high-tech weapon patents (60% of the EU's weapon pantents are being produced in Turkey, including the british conventional bomb with the same power as the Hiroshima-nuke).

So yeah, giving Nintendo flak is nice, but also...it could have gone the way of the crapper if Nintendo didn't do what it did.
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Offline vudu

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Re: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2009, 05:59:33 PM »
The fact that this guy used the word "charlatanism" to describe it is hypocrisy at its finest.

Direct insults are not allowed on the NWR forums.  You have been reported.
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Offline Yoshidious

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Re: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2009, 06:11:46 PM »
I agree that it seems Nintendo is content to simply ride the long-tail success of titles like Mario Kart DS and New Super Mario Bros for the most part in the handheld software market, but I don't think Nintendo is coasting in general. Wii MotionPlus is a relatively unconservative move for Nintendo in that it risks segmenting the market, and the same can also be said of the DSi to an extent.

Also, as GoldenPhoenix points out, the Wii software line-up for 2009 is shaping up very nicely even before we know what the major holiday titles will be, and Nintendo is still willing to pursue niche titles like Wario Land Shake and Sin and Punishment 2, even if they aren't so willing to develop such games internally these days. 
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2009, 06:17:33 PM »
If Nintendo is coasting it is on the DS, but really I can't blame them, 3rd parties are doing a wonderful job with it (Looks like 3rd parties may do a great job for Wii this year as well). Also Nintendo tends to coast when it comes to marketing dollars but really that is how Nintendo has always been, they've always been extremely conservative, it was only with the Wii that they took a huge risk and it paid off.
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Offline UltimatePartyBear

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Re: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2009, 06:44:18 PM »
The fact that this guy used the word "charlatanism" to describe it is hypocrisy at its finest.

Direct insults are not allowed on the NWR forums.  You have been reported.

I used the term intentionally to protest that garbage, actually.

Offline RickPowers

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Re: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2009, 07:18:37 PM »
Some interesting replies here.  First, to Yoshidious, be careful using terms like "long-tail success" if you aren't sure what that means.  A "long-tail" business strategy refers to being able to profitably service a niche.  Mario Kart DS and New Super Mario Bros. are not niche titles.  A better analogue would be a company like Atlus making RPG's that appeal to a small market segment.  If Nintendo's strategy were truly long tail, you wouldn't be hearing third-parties complain, and Nintendo wouldn't be dominating sales of software.

OptimusPrime brings up an intriguing argument about the Wii being a disruptive product.  But again, the problem here is that a truly disruptive product is disruptive only to COMPETITORS and to other industries, not to partners, licensees, and such.  One thing I've noticed is that Nintendo likes to toss a word like "disruptive" around like it's a good thing.  It's not.

The iPod / iTunes combination was a disruptive technology and business model.  While other similar products had been out for a while, it had the right mix of price, features, promotion, and "curb appeal" to get the market to latch on, and it completely upset the business strategies of the content producing industries (record companies, etc.)

Similarly TiVo is a disruptive technology.  Advertisers are still struggling to find ways to cope with people skipping ads.  TiVo has been smart in partnering with advertisers, to try to minimize some of that disruption.  TiVo hasn't been as successful, because of flaws in it's business model, but the technology itself is disruptive.

For the Wii to be called truly disruptive, it would have to be threatening the business model of a previously unrelated industry, or it would have to give Nintendo such an obvious competitive advantage that everyone else would have to take a back seat.  Neither has happened.  If you want to call the Wii disruptive to anything, perhaps it's to other forms of entertainment that it mimics with motion controls (like bowling), and even that's a stretch, since I don't hear tennis racket manufacturers complaining.

No, the problem here is that Nintendo has simply created a business model where they lowered development costs at the same time increasing profit margins.  They've manage to do this by realizing that there was a market that doesn't care about quality or depth and for whom a short, repeatable play experience is acceptable.  Why spend money creating an epic game when you can lower your costs 90% by making a game some people will enjoy playing for just an hour or two?

I'm oversimplifying in my last statement, but the point is that third-party developers are trying to duplicate that success by making clones of Nintendo's games, and rather than rejecting the games lack of any originality, they pass it on through.  Why wouldn't you if you're going to make your money whether it sells or not?  Doubly so if it pushes people to your superior game where your profits are higher.

The issue is that as satisfied as the casual market has been with Nintendo's games so far, I think there's an attrition rate that is getting ignored.  Nintendo has been able to ignore it to a degree, because you haven't been seeing the Wii end up on the secondary markets in large numbers (yet).  But I believe that eventually the "Wii fatigue" is going to set in and people are going to realize that their money might be better spent elsewhere.

What's going to be very interesting is how Wii Motion Plus is received.  It's not an innovation, it's a refinement of an idea.  It's what many thought the Wii was going to be in the first place.  It's possible the core gamers may reject it, having moved on to other systems or games, or deciding that the cost is too high to upgrade their multiple controllers.  Casual gamers may fail to see the need for it, or even what it gets them ... these are the people that are perfectly satisfied with the imprecision they get with the regular controller.

Or it's possible that it could be a wild success, the Trojan horse designed to bring the core gamer back into the fold.  But that's going to take software.  Curious that we haven't seen anything about a new Zelda title yet ...
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Offline Justin Nation

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Re: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2009, 08:05:36 PM »
Hehe, of course Rick couldn't stay away and let me enjoy my return without a fight. If you all think it is bad with Rick hitting Nintendo from the hardcore side, wait till I put up my next blog slapping them from the casual / family side. I don't want to be lumped into the group being blamed for the ruin of the Wii, especially when I have misgivings about how Nintendo seems to be failing to plan for the future concerning the market they may not control much longer if they continue to be comfortable.
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Offline Yoshidious

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Re: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2009, 08:08:55 PM »
I was referring to Mario Kart DS and New SMB as long-tail successes in the sense of a time series plot of their sales data, not with respect to their position in the overall distribution of DS software sales--clearly, they're firmly in the centre of that. Perhaps it would have been best simply to use Nintendo's preferred phrase for titles with staying power, "evergreen", as that would have avoided any confusion. 
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Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2009, 08:10:21 PM »
Optimus: You pulled a "Denis Dyack on 1up Yours" in this thread.  Very impressive.

Plugabugz: Dark Side of the Moon would have been a MUCH better example, though perhaps at the risk of seeming hyperbolic.  :-)

Rick: Nintendo hasn't had concept approval since the NES days, although it was rampant back then.  History has shown that concept approval for games has a delayed but very negative effect on platform holders.  It bit Nintendo in the ass by the mid-90s, and it's now hurting Sony on both PSP and PS3 (they had strict concept approval for PSone, early PS2, and early PSP).  However, I should note that both cases were accompanied by other modes of poor licensee relations.
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Offline RABicle

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Re: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2009, 09:08:03 PM »
Oh man and here I was mistakenly calling out Justin Nation when the real guy with an identity crisis posting a blog.
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2009, 09:24:03 PM »
CRAZY CONSPIRACY THEORY COMING UP! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

Anyone find it funny that just as we moan, bitch, whine, complain, argue, discuss and talk about Bill leaving the forums and the whole negativity among the staff and the members many former NWR staff members (or current staff members that have been hiding) appear out of nowhere and start ranting about said issues?

I would say it was coincidental, but with Lindy being director and Bill leaving due to forum issues its like [crazy theory]they want to rile up the forums even more so it attracts more discussion and thus more hits to NWR.[/crazy theory]
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Offline Berto2K

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Re: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2009, 10:04:41 PM »
Hey the old man is back. Lets not forget how completely wrong you were about the DS and PSP too.
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Offline Rize

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Re: EDITORIALS: Rick’s Rant - Episode 5: Powers Strikes Back
« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2009, 10:09:34 PM »
I'm in agreement with Rick (you know, I recall frequently being in agreement with Rick actually).

I agree with Ian and Rick.  In short, Nintendo has trimmed their hair and gone casual:



Yeah, that's perfect.  Now we just need to wait for Nintendo release reload, crash and burn with St. Anger and finally release some decent games again 10 years from now.