Topic: SUPER SMASH BROS BRAWL - The New Megathread

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I thought the paced, tighter control of SSB was superior to that of Melee, one reason I'm happy to see that Brawl is a bit slower.

SSB could have been a bit faster, but Melee was too fast for most non-hardcore gaming types to keep up, thus alienating all of my SSB64-loving friends. If Brawl is 80-85% of Melee's speed, it'll be just fine by me.

Because you aren't a hardcore gamer if your reflexes are slow.

[Shecky]

We continued to play just as much of the original SSB, even after SSBM was released.  SSBM did seem to alienate some with it's more "hyper" nature.

[Spak-Spang]

Ok, Smash Brother and Everyone has already had this discussion in the other thread about Melee vs the Original.  He makes some great points.  Melee had several great additions to the series that improved it 10 fold.  

But unfortunately, the speed increase made several character unbalanced in skill and hurt slower character making them much harder to use effectively.
There are several reasons why people may enjoy the original more, as well why people may like Melee more.

I personally enjoyed the single player Event Challenges and Adventure mode of Melee, but enjoyed the multiplayer aspects of the original more, because I could get more friends to play the original.  

It just felt more simplistic in a good way.  

I agree with Smash Brother that speed needs to be dealt with.  I like the slowing down to about 80% of Melee's speed or perhaps 75%, but I also think it is necessary to give heavier slower characters more advantages over the speed characters.  

Melee was a great game, but it wasn't perfect, and as such we can discuss ideas on how to improve the game.

[Tanookisuit]

To change topics... I think the new Yoshi's island level looks beautiful.  

[Ceric]

Actually that level looks a little odd to me and makes me sort of wish that the characters would switch to the art style of the stage.

[Spak-Spang]

I love the different art style...though I do see Cerics point.  

Personally it doesn't bother me, because it hits the original game so well.  I like the tilting platform, and I am curious what that will do for the game play...and save ghost is very interesting.

However, it also makes me hope for the classic levels from melee and the original Brawl to be hidden in the game, because these levels are appearing to be much different than the originals.  

[Bill Aurion]

I love how sharp the stage is...My desire for a 2D Yoshi's Island for Wii grows stronger...

[Ceric]

Every time they show a stage there always trying to add a little bit more to it.  I just hope the stages don't take on to much of a Jack of All Trade feel.

[Smash_Brother]

I like the look of this new level.

As for heavy characters, we postulated back in the early days of Melee that they could better balance speed vs. weight by making it so heavy characters shrug off small attacks (like the metal cap in Melee). When Fox kicks Bowser in the middle of his forward smash, Bowser shouldn't stop to cringe in the middle of it but he should take the damage and nail Fox.

Maybe make it damage related: heavy characters won't start cringing until they reach a certain damage %.

In SSBM, Bowser's trophy blurb suggested that the best way to attack him is straight on. I still think that was the dumbest thing I'd ever heard because the point of heavy characters should be that coming straight at them is suicide. Heavy characters should need to be attacked indirectly with faster attacks in an effort to run them up on damage before they can be knocked around.

I'm having mixed feelings about these stages. Most of them seem pretty similar except for scenery changes. With Halberd, Delphino, Fox's stage and Yoshi's, it sounds like most of these levels will do the "single platform with moving background" deal. I hope we have more variety seen later on.

Can't wait to see what they do for Wario's level...

[Adrock]

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Maybe make it damage related: heavy characters won't start cringing until they reach a certain damage %.

Yeah. Basically my big problem with both previou Smash games was that fast characters ruled. I wanted to like Bowser. It was just so pointless.

As for the stages, I like what I've seen so far. Certainly, they're aiming for more than Melee (and possibly more past stages included, though I hope they remake them). I still want to see a Create-A-Stage feature. There are so many possibilities. And with the rumored hard drive, there'd be space to store them all. I know most people are apprehensive about a HD. I wouldn't buy one without a game that could justify it, but if any game could, it'd be Brawl.

[Smash_Brother]

That's one of the reason I liked original SSB better: tiers weren't entirely based on speed (Kirby and Ness were considered top).

And as much as I love Bowser, I play him as a handicap but still win frequently. If I play as Fox, I never lose.

[that Baby guy]

They toyed around with those ideas, Smash_Brother.  When you duck and take an attack, it has much less of an effect on your character.  With someone like Bowser, he really does shrug it off.  The problem was that there wasn't much you could do while ducking to make it work.  For most characters, eventually this would cause them to fly away horizontally, without any real height upon high damage and heavy hit, but this technique works very well for Bowser in the higher damage ranges.  With good timing, a solid Bowser player can take great advantage of this, though so few player as Bowser to start with, so most, if any, use it in lower percentages for other characters, opting not to get hit at all, anyways.

Now players can crawl, so perhaps they took this to another level allowing crawling and attacking to work much better for characters in Bowser's line.

[NWR_pap64]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I'm having mixed feelings about these stages. Most of them seem pretty similar except for scenery changes. With Halberd, Delphino, Fox's stage and Yoshi's, it sounds like most of these levels will do the "single platform with moving background" deal. I hope we have more variety seen later on.

Can't wait to see what they do for Wario's level...

The way I see it, Melee had plenty of interactive stages (the ones you could sometimes would run away from), but also had many simple and stationary stages. So if they are taking a cue from Melee, only a hand will be of the "changing background" while the others will have their own quirks and features.

[ThePerm]

it would be cool for there to be a merrygo round type level, if both players move to the left the level moves counter clockwise, if both players move to the right the level moves clockwise.

[Patchkid15]

sorta like the racing one in SSBM

[LuigiHann]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix


Because you aren't a hardcore gamer if your reflexes are slow.

I don't get what you're trying to say here. I think you're being sarcastic, and suggesting that people with slow reflexes can be hardcore gamers?
I might disagree with you. "Hardcore gamer" is a nebulous term, and I don't know that there are many requirements, but one of the things that hardcore gamers tend to have is fast reaction time. Even if it's not a pre-requisite, playing fast-paced games presumably improves your reaction time. So it would make sense that hardcore gamers would have faster reaction times then some non-gamers, although I'm sure plenty of non-gamers have perfectly adequate reflexes, and I'm sure there are some gamers, such as myself, with stupidly slow reflexes. But most of my hardcore Melee-playing friends have faster reflexes, and I consider them "more hardcore" for that and other reasons.

O_o

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: LuigiHann

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix


Because you aren't a hardcore gamer if your reflexes are slow.

I don't get what you're trying to say here. I think you're being sarcastic, and suggesting that people with slow reflexes can be hardcore gamers?
I might disagree with you. "Hardcore gamer" is a nebulous term, and I don't know that there are many requirements, but one of the things that hardcore gamers tend to have is fast reaction time. Even if it's not a pre-requisite, playing fast-paced games presumably improves your reaction time. So it would make sense that hardcore gamers would have faster reaction times then some non-gamers, although I'm sure plenty of non-gamers have perfectly adequate reflexes, and I'm sure there are some gamers, such as myself, with stupidly slow reflexes. But most of my hardcore Melee-playing friends have faster reflexes, and I consider them "more hardcore" for that and other reasons.

O_o

Yes I was just poking fun at this statement by Smash Brother:

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SSB could have been a bit faster, but Melee was too fast for most non-hardcore gaming types to keep up, thus alienating all of my SSB64-loving friends. If Brawl is 80-85% of Melee's speed, it'll be just fine by me.

[blackfootsteps]

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Originally posted by: Tanookisuit
To change topics... I think the new Yoshi's island level looks beautiful.

It does indeed and it will look even better in motion. I wonder if the seasonal changes will affect gameplay in any way?  Perhaps in winter the ground becomes icey and therefore player control becomes more slippery similar to the Fountain of Dreams stage in SSBM. In Autumn leaves could litter the ground reducing walk speed of characters.

[UniversalJuan]

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Originally posted by: thatguy
They toyed around with those ideas, Smash_Brother.  When you duck and take an attack, it has much less of an effect on your character.  With someone like Bowser, he really does shrug it off.  The problem was that there wasn't much you could do while ducking to make it work.  For most characters, eventually this would cause them to fly away horizontally, without any real height upon high damage and heavy hit, but this technique works very well for Bowser in the higher damage ranges.  With good timing, a solid Bowser player can take great advantage of this, though so few player as Bowser to start with, so most, if any, use it in lower percentages for other characters, opting not to get hit at all, anyways.

Now players can crawl, so perhaps they took this to another level allowing crawling and attacking to work much better for characters in Bowser's line.

The technique you're referring to is called crouch cancelling. An invaluble technique for all characters light or heavy. Oh, and I'm not even about to touch S_B with this topic again. I'm just going to sit back and use my own experiences in tournament eviroments (Yay for tourney-level Peach players!) for my judgement calls.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: UniversalJuan I'm just going to sit back and use my own experiences in tournament eviroments (Yay for tourney-level Peach players!) for my judgement calls.

Don't get mad at me.

Get mad at Ken, Bombsoldier and all of the others tournament champions who generate the tiers.

[UniversalJuan]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother

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Originally posted by: UniversalJuan I'm just going to sit back and use my own experiences in tournament eviroments (Yay for tourney-level Peach players!) for my judgement calls.

Don't get mad at me.

Get mad at Ken, Bombsoldier and all of the others tournament champions who generate the tiers.

You think Peach can survive something like this?

I've seen Ken, Bombsoldier, etc etc vids more than you can possibly know. Yes, she can (Look it up, there a couple of vids of PEach either winning or coming within 1 life of beating Ken) So yeah, it is more than possible to survive.  But like I said, I'm avoiding this subject because no amount of evidence in the world will ever prove me right.

[Adrock]

What the hell did they do to the Metroid music? There's just too much noise over the actual theme. Lameness.

This is the only update I've been absolutely disappointed in. The Smash Ball I can deal with. You know, whatever. Butchering one of my favorite themes from one of my favorite series is just... blasphemy.

Maybe I'm overreacting a little. I've listened to it a few times now and I just don't like it. There's just too much going on that it sounds cluttered. Oh dear....

[Dirk Temporo]

You're overreacting. The new music is absolutely badass. Not quite Metroid Metal, but close.

[Shecky]

Well, I take this as a confirmation of a ridley battle as part of the adventure mode...

[Spak-Spang]

We are also only hearing one part of the song, and it sounded like we were getting into a portion of the music with umm, less noise.  So perhaps we are overacting, until we hear the entire music.