Author Topic: Burden of the Silent Majority  (Read 23437 times)

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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2014, 06:28:28 PM »
I actually have no idea what this is all about.  Don't know the circumstances, don't know who the people involved are.  The article could have used some more context.

I agree with Khush in that the "silent majority" may be because the majority doesn't even know about these events.  It's the first I've heard of it and there is a fair handful of videogame related websites I view daily.

Offline Mop it up

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2014, 07:01:51 PM »
I'm not sure what specifically inspired this article, but it sounds like the sort of stuff that's been happening for the past few decades, not just months. It's only recently that people decided to care about it, so I'm not yet convinced that anyone is sincere. I'll just keep watching from the sidelines and see what happens after some more time passes, then the posers will have moved on to the next big fad and I'll see who's left that still cares.

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2014, 07:57:36 PM »
I don't know enough about this to really comment (as Ian said, I think the majority is silent because they don't know all the details), but I do have a question...

So, woman is making a game.  Woman is supposedly having some kind of relationship with some game "journalist".  Game "journalist" writes some kind of article that features this woman's game.  People find out and start sending this woman death threats.

That sums it up, right?

So... why is the woman getting death threats when it's the man, the so-called "journalist", who betrayed his audience (if you believe the relationship thing, that is)... how many death threats has he gotten?
Just some random guy on the internet who has a different opinion of games than you.

Offline Oblivion

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2014, 08:02:34 PM »
That isn't all the details but the conclusion is the same.

Offline Ceric

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2014, 08:30:09 PM »
Honestly stopped reading this thread after Cat playing 150cc Rainbow Road.  Then we were given no link.  No link.  Can you believe that?
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Offline a-amanitin

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2014, 09:09:14 PM »
I thought about this lately, too, and especially wondered how it would affect PAX over the weekend, if at all. I attended a Women in Games Media panel (or some variation) on Friday out of curiosity, but spent the rest of the weekend trying out game demos and meeting up with friends. The only evidence of what was occurring on the internet happened almost exclusively on twitter or within forums like NeoGAF, whereas it seemed to me that average con-goers were relatively immune save for the discussions that took place at specific panels.


I guess the only thing you really can do is to be nice and friendly as often as you can be. Reassure those you know in stressful situations that you'll be nearby or open to helping/finding help if they need anything. Maybe encourage them to pick up where they left off after the dust settles and the obnoxious minority has moved on to something else or drifted into the nether. I just wish there was a straightforward and easier way to combat harassment other than filing police reports and ignoring what you can. =(


Offline Enner

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2014, 09:32:30 PM »
I actually have no idea what this is all about.  Don't know the circumstances, don't know who the people involved are.  The article could have used some more context.

I agree with Khush in that the "silent majority" may be because the majority doesn't even know about these events.  It's the first I've heard of it and there is a fair handful of videogame related websites I view daily.


This recent article on Forbes.com has what I think is the more even-handed overview of the events of the past three weeks:


http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/09/04/gamergate-a-closer-look-at-the-controversy-sweeping-video-games/


As for not seeing much coverage of the situation on video game related websites, most of them have decided not to report the majority of the related incidents. Most this has been on Twitter, tumblr posts, Youtube videos, and op/eds on various sites.

Offline lolmonade

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2014, 10:32:17 PM »
I actually have no idea what this is all about.  Don't know the circumstances, don't know who the people involved are.  The article could have used some more context.

I agree with Khush in that the "silent majority" may be because the majority doesn't even know about these events.  It's the first I've heard of it and there is a fair handful of videogame related websites I view daily.


This recent article on Forbes.com has what I think is the more even-handed overview of the events of the past three weeks:


http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/09/04/gamergate-a-closer-look-at-the-controversy-sweeping-video-games/


As for not seeing much coverage of the situation on video game related websites, most of them have decided not to report the majority of the related incidents. Most this has been on Twitter, tumblr posts, Youtube videos, and op/eds on various sites.


Thank you for posting this link, you're right, this is the most comprehensive and even-handed take on the events I've read.




Offline lolmonade

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2014, 11:03:26 PM »
Here's my take on the issue - I agree that most gamers are rational, reasonable people that have no issues with women in video games industry, and that those people comprise the "silent majority" of gamers. 


Those people (myself included) also have the sense to not wade into the cesspool of discussion regarding the Zoe Quinn Depression Quest internet shitstorm.  Have you bothered looking at the threads on reddit or 4chan regarding these topics?  You're either a feminist white knight or a sexist monster in the eyes of those actively involved in the "Debate", and the nuanced, reasonable arguments or criticisms over why the implications of a developer having inappropriate relationships with those who end up covering their games on some of the larger online game publications are either vilified or ignored entirely. 


Even more importantly, those who are so rabidly into seeking revenge for "video games journalism corruption" do horrible, horrible things to people Zoe Quinn.  No matter how you feel about Zoe Quinn as a person, or what she allegedly did with those in the video games journalism industry for positive coverage of her FREE TO PLAY game, it doesn't warrant outright ruining a person's life. 


I think it's also important to point out something: Video games journalism largely caters to a very specialized, specific, rabid fan base.  I wonder if movie or comic book fanatics would handle this kind of flare up similarly. 

Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2014, 01:09:34 AM »
If I'm being honest. I have no idea who these ladies are and while I am starting to get a better idea of what is going on, it just seems like a giant poo-flinging contest to me. That being said, as it has already been stated, there's a myriad of reasons why the "silent majority" is silent. I guess consider myself part of the silent majority, but I am silent because I find myself to be indifferent to what it going on right now. I am a selfish gamer in the sense that I only really care about the stuff I am interested in. i just don't care for all of the politics and drama that goes around in this industry.
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Offline Enner

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2014, 05:59:35 AM »
Second, nobody likes to hear this but you just gotta ignore the trolls.  There always have been trolls and always will be.  Stop feeding them. 


I have seen this statement typed many times since the early 00's. I can imagine similar words being posted before that time. Since then, I have seen things get worse. With so many social networks that are built to connect people easily or automatically, the trolls feed themselves and there are so few nuanced tools to help ignore them. As connecting to others over the internet becomes ever easier and automatic, I become more convinced that "Don't feed the trolls," is not a viable tactic.


Thank you for linking those two articles. They have given me many things to think about.


There is a bit of telephone going on with my recounting of these events, which is why I urge folks to watch internetaristocrat's videos, and maybe do their own research when they aren't a bit sleep addled during the day.


Disclosure (fitting given some of #gamergate's grievances): I have not fully watched all of that person's videos which I will explain why soon. So, just a heads up that I'm going to disappoint you and I apologize in advance.


No matter what valid accusations the person has regarding the events around an ex-boyfriend, I find it hard to muster trust when he makes allegations or implied allegations of Zoe Quinn having an affair with the wedded Patrick Klepek just because Quinn and Klepek had a PAX East 2014 panel. Or that Zoe Quinn intentionally sabotaged a high profile game jam to draw attention to her own game jam. There is a discussion of character in this mess, so I will admit that I myopically question the character and subsequently the arguments of a person who is comfortable making such allegations or implications in a series of events that I look down on as trivial, worthless gossip.


(In his second[?] video, Internet Aristocrat uses Max Temkin's alleged rape accusation as an example. I thought that was trivial and worthless gossip as well. I can not explain or excuse the articles and blog posts that came from that.)


-----


As this event has gone on for the past three weeks (!), where I end up in my feelings for this is tired and depressed. From the first shot fired by a jilted ex-boyfriend, it has been a ceaseless barrage of back and forth barbs between all sorts of people that has me bewildered and ducking. In a sense, this is the latest release of the contempt built between multiple sorts of video game enthusiasts, multiple sorts of video game journalists and critics, multiple sorts of video game developers, and probably a few political opportunists.


What I find most absurd is the relative size of this incident. Video game journalism is not limited to Kotaku, Polygon, or Gamasutra. I assume there's plenty of space and web sites for people to have their own fuzzy bubble to be in. But I guess that doesn't happen when the attraction of outrage or perceived slights is too great and too easy to come across. When some users here have remarked that this the first they have heard of this incident, I realize that I spend too much time on Twitter.


As for what happens next or solutions, I will try harder to be kind, considerate, patient, and critical. I will try and fail (arguably, I have failed in my above writing) and try again.


Or maybe I'll just distract myself with free-to-play games on my shiny smartphone or something.

Offline Evan_B

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2014, 10:32:53 AM »
So... What does this have to do with Nintendo?

Ah, right. Absolutely nothing.
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Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2014, 10:44:02 AM »
Good discussion so far -- it helps to have a longer form of interaction than Twitter to discuss complex issues, and it speaks highly of our community that most of these comments are multiple paragraphs and consider multiple viewpoints, weighing the merits, comparing data points. That's the kind of healthy, contemplative, responsive dialogue that I believe Karl was seeking.

I answered his original query in Twitter, but it looks like many of you still don't use that, which is too bad because Twitter is so much fun (most of the time). Basically what I said is that we should all strive to be good examples for our peers and for anyone who might see what we put in the Internet. We should act like ourselves, like humans, on the Internet and always remember that other users are also people. We shouldn't say anything here that we wouldn't say to someone in real life, because for many people, the Internet is their real life (or part of it). I can't make trolls drop their shield of anonymity, but anyone truly interested in engagement on ethical topics, social topics, or just good discussion in general will greatly benefit from presenting him or herself as a rational person who listens to what others say and continuously evaluates internal beliefs to consider these other perspectives.

So that's my treatise on personal conduct online. How we behave ourselves is more important and less volatile than shaming other people, which is itself not much of a conversation starter. How am I going to convince someone of a reasonable point of view when the opening line is "Hey you loser, that's wrong!"

As for the issue of ethics and corruption in gaming media, which I consider a completely separate subject that deserves a sober analysis free from the very intense, emotional topic of online harassment, we recorded a lengthy discussion on the matter for RFN 397. I hope the long format of a podcast also allowed us to delve into the topic and address some concerns that a few of you may have. Please check that out in a few days. The word "Quinn" is not uttered.
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Offline ClexYoshi

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2014, 12:02:11 PM »
As for the issue of ethics and corruption in gaming media, which I consider a completely separate subject that deserves a sober analysis free from the very intense, emotional topic of online harassment, we recorded a lengthy discussion on the matter for RFN 397. I hope the long format of a podcast also allowed us to delve into the topic and address some concerns that a few of you may have. Please check that out in a few days. The word "Quinn" is not uttered.

GET HYPE!

In all seriousness, the talk of ethics is something I've been highly looking forward to on RFN. When I sent in the question myself, I did so predicated on the knowledge that the four of the panelists lie sorta on the very edge of things. On one hand, folks like Johnny and Jon especially have connections that run YEARS back with the likes of Johnny's friendship with Denis Dyack (who Johnny has done a good job of disclosing should he decide to ever editorialize on the subject), but at the same time barely ever have any sort of inside scoop that would require they stay entrenched and hardly ever have reason to report that they could shed light on this all from a perspective that I haven't heard yet.

So... What does this have to do with Nintendo?

That's because I feel Nintendo does a wonderful job of not getting tied up in this giant katamari of internet spaghetti. They very well could have. Remember all the editorial that was popping up on Nintendo having so much female character and PR representation at E3? Yeah. This has nothing to do with Nintendo if only because Nintendo PR isn't allowed to tweet about and leave potential evidence that they are not part of this gigantic ethical quandary.

I also feel this might also tie somewhat into the general lack of Nintendo coverage outside of enthusiast media outlets such as Nintendo World Report.

Offline pokepal148

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2014, 12:28:07 PM »
Well the FBI is now getting involved.

Guys, I don't care how much you disagree with someone, you shouldn't be spewing so much hate and so many death threats that the F-ing Federal Bureau of Investigation, feels the need to feel the need to get involved.

Offline ECM

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2014, 04:44:45 PM »
Goodbye, NWR. It's been rad, but since I get enough politics infecting and destroying everything else in my life, I have little less than zero time to spend getting worked up over 'inclusion' in gaming, when most of us--that'd be the "silent majority" to which you are referring--*only* care about VIDEOGAMES and not "inclusion" and whatever other PC nonsense is currently rotting the brains of the 'literati'.

So yeah, you keep on keeping on, but maybe, in the future, it might just be wise to stick to core competency and not beat a horse that was so dead 2-weeks ago that you've not only pulverized the skeleton, but now you've revealed that, at the end of the day, "inclusion" is so important to "you" (note: *not* the "silent majority", because it isn't) that it casts a pall over any and everything you publish from this moment forward as being inflected with this anti-intellectual, anti-gaming, childish idiocy.

Offline Oblivion

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2014, 05:15:23 PM »
Goodbye, NWR. It's been rad, but since I get enough politics infecting and destroying everything else in my life, I have little less than zero time to spend getting worked up over 'inclusion' in gaming, when most of us--that'd be the "silent majority" to which you are referring--*only* care about VIDEOGAMES and not "inclusion" and whatever other PC nonsense is currently rotting the brains of the 'literati'.

So yeah, you keep on keeping on, but maybe, in the future, it might just be wise to stick to core competency and not beat a horse that was so dead 2-weeks ago that you've not only pulverized the skeleton, but now you've revealed that, at the end of the day, "inclusion" is so important to "you" (note: *not* the "silent majority", because it isn't) that it casts a pall over any and everything you publish from this moment forward as being inflected with this anti-intellectual, anti-gaming, childish idiocy.



Offline Mop it up

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2014, 05:46:27 PM »
Most this has been on Twitter, tumblr posts, Youtube videos,
In other words, the places where the scum of the earth congregate, which is why I don't go to these sites.

Offline Soren

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2014, 06:28:01 PM »
Most this has been on Twitter, tumblr posts, Youtube videos,
In other words, the places where the scum of the earth congregate, which is why I don't go to these sites.


Also, a haven for misinformation and hearsay. Which is why this has been able to fester on for so long. People like InternetAristocrat and JonTron have been able to milk this to no end.
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Offline Oblivion

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2014, 06:52:39 PM »
What does JonTron done to "milk" this besides posting that awful picture one time?

Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2014, 07:31:40 PM »
Most this has been on Twitter, tumblr posts, Youtube videos,
In other words, the places where the scum of the earth congregate, which is why I don't go to these sites.

It's funny 'cause it's true.
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Offline Soren

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #46 on: September 05, 2014, 09:29:52 PM »
What does JonTron done to "milk" this besides posting that awful picture one time?


Jontron got mad at Tim Schafer after the latter retweeted Anita Sarkeesian's latest video. Some one his inane points included the fact that Anita's videos had comments and likes disabled and that men received equal objectification as women in video games. Schafer called him out on his BS, Jontron felt attacked and his fanbase went on to attack Schafer (who was already feeling heat by people who hate Sarkeesian). Jontron got a stupid hashtag named after him that was immediately co-opted by people who were attacking Quinn, indie devs and journalists.
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Offline Shaymin

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2014, 11:11:54 PM »
#IStandWithGanondorf
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Offline Oblivion

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #48 on: September 06, 2014, 12:54:12 AM »
What does JonTron done to "milk" this besides posting that awful picture one time?

Jontron got mad at Tim Schafer after the latter retweeted Anita Sarkeesian's latest video. Some one his inane points included the fact that Anita's videos had comments and likes disabled and that men received equal objectification as women in video games. Schafer called him out on his BS, Jontron felt attacked and his fanbase went on to attack Schafer (who was already feeling heat by people who hate Sarkeesian). Jontron got a stupid hashtag named after him that was immediately co-opted by people who were attacking Quinn, indie devs and journalists.


Hrm. I feel like there's more to this than what was said here, but alright.

Offline Enner

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Re: Burden of the Silent Majority
« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2014, 05:17:30 AM »
Goodbye, NWR. It's been rad, but since I get enough politics infecting and destroying everything else in my life, I have little less than zero time to spend getting worked up over 'inclusion' in gaming, when most of us--that'd be the "silent majority" to which you are referring--*only* care about VIDEOGAMES and not "inclusion" and whatever other PC nonsense is currently rotting the brains of the 'literati'.

So yeah, you keep on keeping on, but maybe, in the future, it might just be wise to stick to core competency and not beat a horse that was so dead 2-weeks ago that you've not only pulverized the skeleton, but now you've revealed that, at the end of the day, "inclusion" is so important to "you" (note: *not* the "silent majority", because it isn't) that it casts a pall over any and everything you publish from this moment forward as being inflected with this anti-intellectual, anti-gaming, childish idiocy.

As someone who considers himself of the silent majority who has refrained from posting anything on the internet relating to this subject until this Talkback thread:

Speak for yourself.

It speaks to the magnitude and fervor of this latest incident between enthusiasts, critics and writers, and developers that the staff of Nintendo World Report felt compelled to have a guest and former staff member post one article on it.

I understand the desire to ignore it as I have expressed the same. In a few weeks time, there will be many headlines on Smash Bros 4 and other games that will push this article down. But for now, these past few weeks are regrettably an important flash point that deserves some recognition in even the most isolated of communities.

However, for a site and a forum to completely ignore the culture and humanity around our favored hobby or to just completely ignore negative aspects would be doing a grave disservice to our intellect and growth. As much as some would protest otherwise, the people and things we surround ourselves and interact with will always leave a mark on us. It is important to be mindful of that.