Author Topic: Episode 546: The Influence of Classical Waggle on the Modern Metropolis  (Read 11969 times)

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Offline ejamer

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Re: Episode 546: The Influence of Classical Waggle on the Modern Metropolis
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2017, 10:33:17 PM »
Wario Land 1 on the gameboy is absolutely the best Wario Land game. No question about it.

Even back in the 90's when i went to buy Wario Land 2 i was sooooo disappointed in it. Still own it and still am.


Totally agree. I like most of the ideas in Wario Land 2/3... but find the implementation fell way short of my expectations.


The first Wario Land game is a bit of an over looked gem these days. Maybe a bit too slow at times, although speed ramps up quickly if you have the Jet or Bull power. Level design is much better than in the sequels, and there are lots of secrets to find, including high-value hidden treasures. Multiple possible endings also made the game a lot of fun to replay.


That said, I also love Wario Land 4 on GBA and Wario Land Shake It! Very tight level designs, and lots of fun to play. Shake It might be my favorite game in the series, because of the gorgeous graphics and amazing soundtrack.
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Offline Kobeskillz

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Re: Episode 546: The Influence of Classical Waggle on the Modern Metropolis
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2017, 11:07:31 AM »
This is by far the most negative Mario odessey podcast I’ve listened too. Attack me for this comment but true.

Offline ClexYoshi

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Re: Episode 546: The Influence of Classical Waggle on the Modern Metropolis
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2017, 08:51:27 AM »
This is by far the most negative Mario odessey podcast I’ve listened too. Attack me for this comment but true.

Game club run by Shesez, Beta64, and A+Start on Youtube was harsher, ragging on things like artistic inconsistency and how they like Galaxy better and such.

Offline Kobeskillz

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Re: Episode 546: The Influence of Classical Waggle on the Modern Metropolis
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2017, 11:25:03 AM »
This is by far the most negative Mario odessey podcast I’ve listened too. Attack me for this comment but true.

Game club run by Shesez, Beta64, and A+Start on Youtube was harsher, ragging on things like artistic inconsistency and how they like Galaxy better and such.


I haven’t listened to that one. I mean I guess you can say it has artistic inconsistency but I just saw it as them portraying different parts of the world. I don’t know I liked that each area was so different visually from the other. I dug that.
 
Still this I was ready for a glowing podcast about Mario sprinkled with some criticisms about the game but instead it turned into this is what it does wrong and this is what I don’t like and it kept going.
 
Sometimes I think people forget that these games are made for a wide wide range of people. The Co op mechanic is amazing with my kids because I can help with cappy or I can control Mario in harder sections and have them help with cappy and they love it. Much more than the Galaxy coop.
 
 
Also having a bunch of moons and some being super easy to get is perfectly fine. My kinds (4 and 6) find some moons way way too hard but some of the easier ones that are just “laying around” they love cause they still are having fun and they still get that sense of reward from getting a moon and it keeps them going instead of hitting a brick wall and just running around for an hour without getting one moon because adults complained that every moon should be a challenge.

Offline pokepal148

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Re: Episode 546: The Influence of Classical Waggle on the Modern Metropolis
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2017, 01:41:39 PM »
This is by far the most negative Mario odessey podcast I’ve listened too. Attack me for this comment but true.
If you insist. Comrades! We strike at dawn.

Offline Wanderlei

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Re: Episode 546: The Influence of Classical Waggle on the Modern Metropolis
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2017, 08:38:03 AM »
This is by far the most negative Mario odessey podcast I’ve listened too. Attack me for this comment but true.


I might skip this Ep then. I hate it when you hear a certain nitpick that you were oblivious to before but once you hear it, you notice it too. Enjoying my time, going slow and savoring.

Offline Oedo

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Re: Episode 546: The Influence of Classical Waggle on the Modern Metropolis
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2017, 10:42:52 AM »
Sometimes I think people forget that these games are made for a wide wide range of people. The Co op mechanic is amazing with my kids because I can help with cappy or I can control Mario in harder sections and have them help with cappy and they love it. Much more than the Galaxy coop.

That's the problem, isn't it? These games are made for a broad audience, as you say, and the yet the co-op mode only seems to be useful for people with young children. I'm fairly certain that Guillaume's partner is not a 6-year-old, so you should understand why they didn't find it as enjoyable (especially coming off a game like Super Mario 3D World, which had great co-op for experienced players).

Also having a bunch of moons and some being super easy to get is perfectly fine. My kinds (4 and 6) find some moons way way too hard but some of the easier ones that are just “laying around” they love cause they still are having fun and they still get that sense of reward from getting a moon and it keeps them going instead of hitting a brick wall and just running around for an hour without getting one moon because adults complained that every moon should be a challenge.

Yeah, it is fine for the main game. The problem is that there are many superfluous post-game Power Moons as well. Just as it isn't unreasonable to expect Mario games to be very accessible for children or less experienced gamers during the main game, it's not unreasonable to expect that the game sheds the fluff and delivers a more lean platforming challenge after the credits roll. Having Power Moons that are in plain sight, require no platforming challenge to get to, and marked on the map as post-game content does make it seem like they were just trying to get the Power Moon count up.

I do think the RFN crew sometimes comes across as more critical of a game than they intend to, but this episode didn't really feel like one of those weeks. I was actually surprised at how effusive James was in his praise for this game, and the discussion felt pretty balanced overall.

Offline Kobeskillz

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Re: Episode 546: The Influence of Classical Waggle on the Modern Metropolis
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2017, 01:24:13 AM »
Sometimes I think people forget that these games are made for a wide wide range of people. The Co op mechanic is amazing with my kids because I can help with cappy or I can control Mario in harder sections and have them help with cappy and they love it. Much more than the Galaxy coop.

That's the problem, isn't it? These games are made for a broad audience, as you say, and the yet the co-op mode only seems to be useful for people with young children. I'm fairly certain that Guillaume's partner is not a 6-year-old, so you should understand why they didn't find it as enjoyable (especially coming off a game like Super Mario 3D World, which had great co-op for experienced players).

Also having a bunch of moons and some being super easy to get is perfectly fine. My kinds (4 and 6) find some moons way way too hard but some of the easier ones that are just “laying around” they love cause they still are having fun and they still get that sense of reward from getting a moon and it keeps them going instead of hitting a brick wall and just running around for an hour without getting one moon because adults complained that every moon should be a challenge.

Yeah, it is fine for the main game. The problem is that there are many superfluous post-game Power Moons as well. Just as it isn't unreasonable to expect Mario games to be very accessible for children or less experienced gamers during the main game, it's not unreasonable to expect that the game sheds the fluff and delivers a more lean platforming challenge after the credits roll. Having Power Moons that are in plain sight, require no platforming challenge to get to, and marked on the map as post-game content does make it seem like they were just trying to get the Power Moon count up.

I do think the RFN crew sometimes comes across as more critical of a game than they intend to, but this episode didn't really feel like one of those weeks. I was actually surprised at how effusive James was in his praise for this game, and the discussion felt pretty balanced overall.

But is it a problem? Hey I when to see a family movie and boy was I upset that they had some kid jokes in it. Oh wait no I wasn’t. Because I went to see a FAMILY movie.

This is a game meant for all ages. It has some impossible stuff for young children. Some real challenges and it has some features for young kids and parents. Because it’s a FAMILY game. I find it silly to nitpick about a feature that many others enjoy because you as adults found it boring. Mario is not a game you should be looking at for your intense co op fun.

I’m not tying to be a jerk but this is a feature that has been tremendously fun for me and my family and many echo that sentiment.

Offline Oedo

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Re: Episode 546: The Influence of Classical Waggle on the Modern Metropolis
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2017, 08:46:12 AM »
Super Mario 3D World is also a family game, and as was mentioned on this episode, they found the co-op in that game to be more enjoyable. I don't remember anyone on the podcast saying that the co-op mode should not be fun for families and people with children, and that's certainly not what I'm saying. It's just that they can (and should) try to serve both audiences better.

Offline Pandareus

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Re: Episode 546: The Influence of Classical Waggle on the Modern Metropolis
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2017, 11:05:40 AM »
Yeah, I feel like I had covered pretty much all the bases: I conceded Odyssey's co-op might be useful in the context of helping a child play through the game but isn't fun with an experienced player. I don't find controlling Cappy fun, and Karen doesn't WANT Cappy control taken away from her.


3D World is my gold standard for 3D Mario co-op.


All of this was covered in the episode itself.


As for the negativity, it's not something I wanted to bring to the podcast, but it just resulted from just liking a game everyone else LOVES. I made sure to state more than once that I wasn't as down on the game as I came across, and that it just came down to my preferences.

Offline Kobeskillz

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Re: Episode 546: The Influence of Classical Waggle on the Modern Metropolis
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2017, 11:46:18 AM »
I knew when i posted that i found the segment overly negative that i would get people on me. That's been the way here imo. A bit too defensive about critic from the crew and fans but sorry guys it's how i felt.


i'm not saying i don't like the show and in contrast i've listened to every episode ever and super excited to hear a new one every week. I love the crew but yeah this was a downer. Even my wife who was in the car with was like damn this guy is raining the negativity on the game.


I mean even when james was trying to steer it back to positive Gui [size=78%]would take it back to complaining about something and even got poor Metts into it too. Lol. Is hard to rain complaints then at the very end say yeah but I liked it like that excuses the past 20 mins lol. [/size]

Offline Pandareus

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Re: Episode 546: The Influence of Classical Waggle on the Modern Metropolis
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2017, 12:40:45 PM »

Are you saying that you're not enjoying coming across as overly critical and negative, and that before you even said anything you knew people would make a big deal out of your light criticism and would act overly defensive? That you're a big fan but had some issues with the latest that came out, and it brought you down?


I can't imagine what that's like.




Look, I'm sorry for being snarky but I tried to be mostly positive, it's just that no one else seemed to have the same feelings about the game as I did, so I had to express them. I know some listeners feel the same way I do, and I don't see a reason to not express that point of view. The alternative would have been to shut up, which is largely what I did for the one hour Odyssey conversation between James and Greg on 547, so go ahead and enjoy that.


I may have some more positive things to say in future episodes, as I find aspects of the game I like more. But the collectathon nature of the game isn't something I enjoy, and unfortunately it's prevalent and unavoidable when playing through the game.

Offline P1KM1NM4N

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Re: Episode 546: The Influence of Classical Waggle on the Modern Metropolis
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2017, 03:22:36 PM »
Hey Guillaume! Don't worry about what other people think, just keep being you. You are one of my favorite hosts on RFN and I love to hear your opinion. Although your experience might be different than others, I find it is best to at least share that experience.


It was the same with my friends too, as no one really like the co-op in the game either. We ended up just watching the one person play and talked about his skills (which were not very good). All games have quirks or aspects that not everybody likes, and it is relieving to know some one out there also shares the same opinion.


Keep being you Guillaume! I hope to hear you talk twice as much in 548 to make up for your hour of silence!

Offline Kobeskillz

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Re: Episode 546: The Influence of Classical Waggle on the Modern Metropolis
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2017, 04:46:26 PM »

Are you saying that you're not enjoying coming across as overly critical and negative, and that before you even said anything you knew people would make a big deal out of your light criticism and would act overly defensive? That you're a big fan but had some issues with the latest that came out, and it brought you down?


I can't imagine what that's like.




Look, I'm sorry for being snarky but I tried to be mostly positive, it's just that no one else seemed to have the same feelings about the game as I did, so I had to express them. I know some listeners feel the same way I do, and I don't see a reason to not express that point of view. The alternative would have been to shut up, which is largely what I did for the one hour Odyssey conversation between James and Greg on 547, so go ahead and enjoy that.


I may have some more positive things to say in future episodes, as I find aspects of the game I like more. But the collectathon nature of the game isn't something I enjoy, and unfortunately it's prevalent and unavoidable when playing through the game.


Its not a personal attack on you and you're super funny i always enjoy your sharp wit.


I want that to be clear i'm not attacking you! lol. Here is the irony in all this. Think of my comments like what you said about Mario Odyssey.


Everyone was raining praise but you had some small issues here and there and you expressed them. Doesn't mean you didn't love the game.


Same with me. I love this pod cast but at times i feel for pacing things should be mixed a bit. Constructive criticism with positive. Sometimes i feel the podcast likes to steer a bit too much in the negativity.

[/size][size=78%]Like how you called out odyssey i came in here and just gave my opinion and like you i'm getting crap for it. the irony. [/size]
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Offline lolmonade

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Re: Episode 546: The Influence of Classical Waggle on the Modern Metropolis
« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2017, 06:37:17 PM »
Kobeskillz, out of curiosity, how long have you been listening to RFN?  They have had a tendency to spend a lot of time nit-picking flaws in a game that they overall largely love, spanning as far back as I remember (Dr. Metts days). 

You had two people on the podcast who both summarized that they had effusive praise for the game, and one who didn't say he didn't like the game, but wanted to provide input as to why he wasn't enamored with it at the same level as Jonny & James.

Additionally, while this is a matter of personal preference, RFN's podcasts are often conversational when touching upon a larger game or topic, which can cause uneven flow.  I personally like it, but understand it's a matter of personal taste.

Offline lolmonade

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Re: Episode 546: The Influence of Classical Waggle on the Modern Metropolis
« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2017, 06:39:31 PM »
I gotta say, regarding Mario Odyssey, I really don't see how it's seen as the descendant of super Mario 64.  There's so little structure in each world.  Whereas Mario 64's worlds you'd be there for one specific star, in Mario Odyssey, you're given open rein to scour the land for whatever moon you'd like.

Offline Kobeskillz

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Re: Episode 546: The Influence of Classical Waggle on the Modern Metropolis
« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2017, 06:47:38 PM »
Kobeskillz, out of curiosity, how long have you been listening to RFN?  They have had a tendency to spend a lot of time nit-picking flaws in a game that they overall largely love, spanning as far back as I remember (Dr. Metts days). 

You had two people on the podcast who both summarized that they had effusive praise for the game, and one who didn't say he didn't like the game, but wanted to provide input as to why he wasn't enamored with it at the same level as Jonny & James.

Additionally, while this is a matter of personal preference, RFN's podcasts are often conversational when touching upon a larger game or topic, which can cause uneven flow.  I personally like it, but understand it's a matter of personal taste.


Mmmm i'd say between 2012-2013.


Don't get me wrong i love the show and i know the style which i like but i don't know sometimes it goes on a bit tooo much. I can understand if you're playing Sunshine and you're taking a crap on it for a while but Odyssey just felt weird as it kept going and going even while james was doing his best to spotlight the good things. It was just so different from the conversations i've heard about this game before.


Heck even my wife noticed it and she doesn't care about games and podcast. lol.


I do feel the crew shouldn't take constructive criticism so personal and thats always been a problem i've noticed. They have different opinions and i thought you could voice your opinion here even if it was different from theirs but i do notice they get defensive at times and so do the long time fans.


Again i know i'll be jumped on for those comments but hey as a fan that's how i feel. As unpopular as that may be.

Offline MASB

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Re: Episode 546: The Influence of Classical Waggle on the Modern Metropolis
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2017, 07:19:17 PM »
I relistened to 546 and there's no doubt that Gui is significantly more negative about the game than the others. But he articulated his reservations about Odyssey pretty well. At no point did I feel he was spitting "hot fiyah" and being contrarian just for the sake of it, which is what you get with a certain segment of the podcast/youtube casters. I've had some fun with Existential Crisis Gui in the past, but there was none of that here. Just an in-depth discussion about the design of the game with differing opinions.

"It was just so different from the conversations i've heard about this game before."

What does that have to do with anything? That sounds close to what people complain about when a review score is out of line with the majority. Gui's concerns aren't yours. What he enjoys or what annoys him, may be different from you. As long as he can explain why he feels the way he does, I don't see the problem.

I thought Gui's post in this topic discussing co-op was accurate to how he expressed it on the podcast and pretty much sums up the situation. He even acknowledged that others may enjoy the co-op mode more than he did. Not being afraid to express your viewpoint while realizing how and why others may feel different seems the best that anyone could expect of anyone on any subject. Most of your "constructive" criticism seems to be: Gui thinks differently from me and others and that is harshing my buzz.

Gui's criticisms probably don't even rank in the top 50 most negative things ever expressed on this podcast. Heck, it may not even make it into the top 10 of this year. My email back in April about Switch hitting 16 million for this fiscal year (hey-oh!) was probably more negative than Gui's Odyssey talk!
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 07:21:24 PM by MASB »

Offline ClexYoshi

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Re: Episode 546: The Influence of Classical Waggle on the Modern Metropolis
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2017, 08:26:39 PM »
I was about to say, I'm pretty sure I had to listen to Gui poo-poo on Order of Ecclesia this year when he went through that phase where he didn't have a switch and was just aimlessly finding games to hate on that are popular like Final Fantasy 7.

Offline ejamer

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Re: Episode 546: The Influence of Classical Waggle on the Modern Metropolis
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2017, 07:16:39 AM »
Sure, but many parts of Final Fantasy 7 are absolute garbage - translation work, graphical style, much of the storyline, most of the forced mini-games that interrupt the flow of the story, etc - so maybe that's not the best example to give?  It had a huge advertising budget back in the day, but (outside of being in 3D and being a huge game) was in many ways a step backwards from the previous Final Fantasy game. Lacking a massive nostalgia hard-on, there isn't a good enough reason to say anything otherwise.


Point being, there's nothing wrong with one person "poo-pooing" a game that has notable flaws and isn't something that impressed him. If you feel differently, that's fine. Let people know why you enjoy the game.

 ;)




(For the record, I think Order of Ecclesia is pretty awesome.)
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