Author Topic: Satoru Iwata: Hubris versus Western Culture  (Read 22232 times)

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Offline Soren

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Re: Satoru Iwata: Hubris versus Western Culture
« Reply #75 on: April 12, 2013, 10:48:15 PM »
Plus if it was unsustainable how did all the companies that survived make it?

You do realize that not all companies have to die off in order for a business model to become unsustainable, right? It's like trying to deny the dot-com bubble burst happened just because companies like Amazon survived it.
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Offline MagicCow64

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Re: Satoru Iwata: Hubris versus Western Culture
« Reply #76 on: April 13, 2013, 01:01:45 AM »
"And it almost worked and I think it would have if third parties didn't have to devote so many resources to HD development. It's easy to say it didn't work in 2013, but it wasn't a bad strategy in 2006."

This is a really interesting point. It's taken for granted that the Wii got left in the parking lot as third parties peeled out in their HD hot rods, but given the ongoing turmoil in the industry, it's not clear that those third parties made the right call in the long run. How many studios might still be open if they'd tried to capitalize on the Wii userbase in its prime with quality mid-budget software instead of chasing top-spec glory? 

I think Nintendo's strategy to reel in a new permanent consumer base could have worked, but the Western dev world made emotional/hobbyist decisions that I fear will drag everyone down in the long run. I remain highly skeptical that PS4/Durango are going to reverse any of the rotten industry trends. Gamespot, for once, has a very on-point editorial on the subject: http://www.gamespot.com/features/beauty-is-in-the-eye-of-the-destroyer-6406923/

Offline alegoicoe

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Re: Satoru Iwata: Hubris versus Western Culture
« Reply #77 on: April 13, 2013, 04:12:26 AM »
"And it almost worked and I think it would have if third parties didn't have to devote so many resources to HD development. It's easy to say it didn't work in 2013, but it wasn't a bad strategy in 2006."

This is a really interesting point. It's taken for granted that the Wii got left in the parking lot as third parties peeled out in their HD hot rods, but given the ongoing turmoil in the industry, it's not clear that those third parties made the right call in the long run. How many studios might still be open if they'd tried to capitalize on the Wii userbase in its prime with quality mid-budget software instead of chasing top-spec glory? 

I think Nintendo's strategy to reel in a new permanent consumer base could have worked, but the Western dev world made emotional/hobbyist decisions that I fear will drag everyone down in the long run. I remain highly skeptical that PS4/Durango are going to reverse any of the rotten industry trends. Gamespot, for once, has a very on-point editorial on the subject: http://www.gamespot.com/features/beauty-is-in-the-eye-of-the-destroyer-6406923/


Good article, but I sense that the majority of gamers don't get that the industry is going down a massive down whirl spiral, but with good graphics :cool;
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Satoru Iwata: Hubris versus Western Culture
« Reply #78 on: April 13, 2013, 08:39:26 AM »
This is a really interesting point. It's taken for granted that the Wii got left in the parking lot as third parties peeled out in their HD hot rods, but given the ongoing turmoil in the industry, it's not clear that those third parties made the right call in the long run. How many studios might still be open if they'd tried to capitalize on the Wii userbase in its prime with quality mid-budget software instead of chasing top-spec glory?
I don't feel like gameplay has advanced as much as graphics have. Instead of playing on the strengths of gaming (e.g. interactivity), most third parties are just trying to make everything look shiny and fancy. That's a problem. I enjoy great graphics as much as the next person, but if it's going to force companies to close down for failing to meet a ridiculous sales goal, I don't think it's worth it.

What people who keep grasping for better and better hardware don't seem to understand is that someone has to pay for all of it. Either developers make less graphically impressive games on smaller budgets (which makes the push for the best hardware moot) or gamers spend $100 per game to compensate for the increased cost of development. I don't see consumers shouldering that responsibility (I sure as hell wouldn't) so it has to start on the third party side.

I look at games like Tomb Raider, Halo 4, and The Last of Us and I am blown the hell away. That's all possible on hardware over seven years old. Games can look better, but do they really need to? What are we racing towards? What is the rush? Better hardware should be brought to market when current technology can't support the ability to make games play better. That's the way it was before. I really don't think developers' ability to create good games are limited by the hardware presently on the market. We don't have the same technological jumps (e.g. sprites to polygons) nor the same restrictions we had before. I love buying new hardware, but I don't like spending money on it. Do I want to spend $500 on a PS4 to play games I know could play the same except look slightly worse (yet still great) on a console I already own? Absolutely not.
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I think Nintendo's strategy to reel in a new permanent consumer base could have worked, but the Western dev world made emotional/hobbyist decisions that I fear will drag everyone down in the long run. I remain highly skeptical that PS4/Durango are going to reverse any of the rotten industry trends.
I think Nintendo's goal is still to have casual gamers continue to come back. They won't play as frequently as core gamers, but they can still pick up the next casual game. And that's fine. Those games don't take nearly as much time or resources to make. It gives Nintendo some extra sales and there are, in fact, core gamers who buy them. And what Nintendo won't admit is that these casual games are suppose to be gateway drugs.

Still, I think Nintendo's strategy all along was to convince core gamers to also buy Wii through original content not found anywhere else. This also meant convincing third parties to support them which wasn't easy given Nintendo's rocky past with them. For example, Nintendo wasn't trying to get Soulcalibur IV (yet). Instead Nintendo wanted Soulcalibur Legends and once fans were hooked, they could convince Namco to develop a version of IV (like Broken Destiny on PSP). Unfortunately, Legends was 10 kinds of awful, but it could have been awesome. I think Namco did themselves a great disservice by not taking the project as seriously as they took the mainline games. Spin-offs get a bad rap for all the times they're done poorly, but think of how many times Nintendo, for example, has done them well. Yoshi and Wario are both spinoff characters that are highly successful on their own.

That was the strategy's downfall. It only works if the games were worth it. Again, it's easy to say it didn't work. However, it's just as easy to see how it could have worked. Instead of asking consumers to pick one of three versions of the same game, Nintendo let them pick one of two (since if they got a version, it would probably sell the worst anyway), but hoped to still have something for fans of those series. Another gateway drug strategy.

I appreciate the effort even if it didn't pan out. Nintendo has a responsibility to itself and I can see where they're coming from. They're still a company today because they protected themselves and didn't continually take losses. Wii was risky; Wii with HD graphics in 2006 would have been suicide. I am worried about the direction of the industry. It's odd seeing all of these companies shut down and other companies failing to see the writing on the wall.

Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Satoru Iwata: Hubris versus Western Culture
« Reply #79 on: April 13, 2013, 09:06:29 AM »
For better or worse, Nintendo takes their loyal fans for granted, and assumes, rightfully so, that their hardware will be a lot of people's second console due only to their own software. Just like there were people who bought a Wii just for Wii Sports, there were a lot of people who bought one just for Super Mario Galaxy, or Metroid Prime 3, or Zelda. Nintendo's complacent because I think they believe there isn't all that much they can do to change the outcome with core gamers, and I honestly think they're right.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Satoru Iwata: Hubris versus Western Culture
« Reply #80 on: April 13, 2013, 09:28:09 AM »
I disagree. I don't think Nintendo takes their fans for granted for the simple fact that they still try to develop good and interesting games. Some series are admittedly stagnant. I may scream if we get another New Super Mario Bros. (NSMBU was fun; I'm just done with the series), but we still get gems like Super Mario 3D Land. For comparison's sake, think of the beating Sonic has taken over the past decade and how so many other Sega IPs are either MIA or have been treated equally as carelessly. It's like they have no idea what artistic integrity is anymore.

I also have to give Nintendo credit for trying new things to get support from third parties, despite still getting some really simple things wrong (no universal chat, really?). They're trying, but the damage was done long ago. Nintendo can't erase the sins of the past and it's something I think they'll always have to answer for. Either Sony and Microsoft have to really screw up (yes, both) and Nintendo swoops in for the save or Nintendo is going to have to partner up with another company who can help level the playing field and what are their options? Google? Apple? Yeah... They're better off on their own. They just need to keep trying something different.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 09:34:27 AM by Adrock »

Offline Ceric

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Re: Satoru Iwata: Hubris versus Western Culture
« Reply #81 on: April 13, 2013, 10:01:36 AM »
I wouldn't hold Super Mario Galaxy 3D Land up as innovation personally. 

I do see the point that it was easy to see the potential for 3rd parties on Wii in 2006. 

But Graphics allow for hype that front loads game sales.  Besides Nintendo and argueably Blizzard most companies aren't looking for Evergreen games but games good for a quarter or maybe a year.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Satoru Iwata: Hubris versus Western Culture
« Reply #82 on: April 13, 2013, 12:01:33 PM »
I wouldn't hold Super Mario Galaxy 3D Land up as innovation personally.
I didn't mention innovation once in that post. I said "good and interesting" then called it a gem. I credit Super Mario 3D Land's level design for this which is decidedly different than other 3D Mario games.

Offline MagicCow64

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Re: Satoru Iwata: Hubris versus Western Culture
« Reply #83 on: April 14, 2013, 12:24:28 AM »

What people who keep grasping for better and better hardware don't seem to understand is that someone has to pay for all of it. Either developers make less graphically impressive games on smaller budgets (which makes the push for the best hardware moot) or gamers spend $100 per game to compensate for the increased cost of development. I don't see consumers shouldering that responsibility (I sure as hell wouldn't) so it has to start on the third party side.


I'm trying to think of what games I've played on the 360 (that I liked) that couldn't have been pulled off in SD form on Wii-level hardware. Red Dead Redemption for sure. Vanquish probably. Coming up kinda dry otherwise.

People would likely argue that there are a lot of FPSes and GOW-type games with AI too strong, but I maintain that most AI is still pathetic anyway.

Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Satoru Iwata: Hubris versus Western Culture
« Reply #84 on: April 15, 2013, 01:08:37 PM »
I think Nintendo very much takes their fans for granted.  The vibe I always got from the Wii was that Nintendo that the whole thing was primarily designed to attract the casual non-gamer market and that the Nintendo fanbase would just come along anyway as long as you threw them a couple bones.  Essentialy they re-released the Gamecube with a new controller and sold it to an audience that didn't know what a Gamecube was.  If the old fans came along, great, but I honestly didn't think they gave a **** if we didn't.

For better or worse, Nintendo takes their loyal fans for granted, and assumes, rightfully so, that their hardware will be a lot of people's second console due only to their own software. Just like there were people who bought a Wii just for Wii Sports, there were a lot of people who bought one just for Super Mario Galaxy, or Metroid Prime 3, or Zelda. Nintendo's complacent because I think they believe there isn't all that much they can do to change the outcome with core gamers, and I honestly think they're right.

If Nintendo is going to have that attitude then it would be in our best interest if they just went third party.  Why the hell should I have to buy a seperate console just to get Nintendo games?  The NES and SNES did a damn fine job as one's sole console and with the N64 and Gamecube it felt like being your only console was Nintendo's intention, even if it didn't quite work out.  Nintendo handhelds are the only handheld you need.  That's something else I didn't like on the Wii.  I would complain about the lack of third party games and get "well just buy a PS3 or Xbox 360 for those" from people on this forum as if dropping another several hundred dollars is a completely reasonable suggestion.  Complain about the PS3 price all you want but if Nintendo EXPECTS to be your second console they're effectively asking you to pay a lot to get a proper console experience.  A Nintendo console should either strive to be the only console you need to own or it shouldn't exist at all.  There is no reason for Nintendo to have some special box just for them.

Offline Ceric

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Re: Satoru Iwata: Hubris versus Western Culture
« Reply #85 on: April 15, 2013, 01:15:54 PM »
I wouldn't hold Super Mario Galaxy 3D Land up as innovation personally.
I didn't mention innovation once in that post. I said "good and interesting" then called it a gem. I credit Super Mario 3D Land's level design for this which is decidedly different than other 3D Mario games.
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Some series are admittedly stagnant.
THen you mention Super Mario 3D Land.  I assume if your not Stagnant then you would be Innovating.  Sorry for the confusion.
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Offline pokepal148

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Re: Satoru Iwata: Hubris versus Western Culture
« Reply #86 on: April 15, 2013, 02:02:12 PM »
I think Nintendo very much takes their fans for granted.  The vibe I always got from the Wii was that Nintendo that the whole thing was primarily designed to attract the casual non-gamer market and that the Nintendo fanbase would just come along anyway as long as you threw them a couple bones.  Essentialy they re-released the Gamecube with a new controller and sold it to an audience that didn't know what a Gamecube was.  If the old fans came along, great, but I honestly didn't think they gave a **** if we didn't.

For better or worse, Nintendo takes their loyal fans for granted, and assumes, rightfully so, that their hardware will be a lot of people's second console due only to their own software. Just like there were people who bought a Wii just for Wii Sports, there were a lot of people who bought one just for Super Mario Galaxy, or Metroid Prime 3, or Zelda. Nintendo's complacent because I think they believe there isn't all that much they can do to change the outcome with core gamers, and I honestly think they're right.

If Nintendo is going to have that attitude then it would be in our best interest if they just went third party.
You mean like Sega?
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Why the hell should I have to buy a seperate console just to get Nintendo games?  The NES and SNES did a damn fine job as one's sole console and with the N64 and Gamecube it felt like being your only console was Nintendo's intention, even if it didn't quite work out.
May I ask what you felt was different? What did nintendo do differently other then wii sports type stuff as opposed to mario party every year
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Nintendo handhelds are the only handheld you need.  That's something else I didn't like on the Wii.  I would complain about the lack of third party games and get "well just buy a PS3 or Xbox 360 for those" from people on this forum as if dropping another several hundred dollars is a completely reasonable suggestion.
Considering the number of people who own all three apparently it is reasonable  :D
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Complain about the PS3 price all you want but if Nintendo EXPECTS to be your second console they're effectively asking you to pay a lot to get a proper console experience.  A Nintendo console should either strive to be the only console you need to own or it shouldn't exist at all.  There is no reason for Nintendo to have some special box just for them.
Why not? the fact is that this isn't the SNES days, multiconsole owners are pretty common now,
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Offline nickmitch

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Re: Satoru Iwata: Hubris versus Western Culture
« Reply #87 on: April 15, 2013, 09:07:54 PM »
Implying that Sega is losing money because they went third party is more than a tad inaccurate.

Also, it's still not cheap to own three consoles. You either have to space out the purchases, buy used, or just simply have money like that. I own all three, but I got a Wii at launch, a deal on a new 360 that was still better than the following price drop, and a black Friday. All spaced out over a series of years, and I only recently began buying PS3 games.

Not cheap.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 09:11:08 PM by nickmitch »
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Offline pokepal148

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Re: Satoru Iwata: Hubris versus Western Culture
« Reply #88 on: April 15, 2013, 09:09:40 PM »
Implying that Sega is losing money because they went third party is more than a tad inaccurate.
but it proves that it isn't a universally amazing solution to everything ever.

Offline nickmitch

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Re: Satoru Iwata: Hubris versus Western Culture
« Reply #89 on: April 15, 2013, 09:13:41 PM »
I'm pretty sure that's over-exaggerating his point. "If Nintendo doesn't want to be you're only console, then they shouldn't be in the console business." I think is more inline with what he was saying, and he has a point. That second console crap isn't gonna work if you aren't as distinct of a price leader.

Also, one example never proves anything.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 09:15:16 PM by nickmitch »
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Offline pokepal148

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Re: Satoru Iwata: Hubris versus Western Culture
« Reply #90 on: April 15, 2013, 09:55:51 PM »
I'm pretty sure that's over-exaggerating his point. "If Nintendo doesn't want to be you're only console, then they shouldn't be in the console business." I think is more inline with what he was saying, and he has a point. That second console crap isn't gonna work if you aren't as distinct of a price leader.

Also, one example never proves anything.
can i see the PS4/720 Price tags, you can't make a comparison about anything unless every variable is in position on the field

there is Atari also to prove that going 3rd party is a great idea, SNK had a bit of fun themselves also,

Offline Adrock

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Re: Satoru Iwata: Hubris versus Western Culture
« Reply #91 on: April 15, 2013, 10:37:48 PM »
Why the hell should I have to buy a seperate console just to get Nintendo games?
This can be said about every console ever, just replace Nintendo with Sega, Sony, or Microsoft etc. What you really want is Denis Dyack's universal gaming console. It's silly to fault Nintendo for this.

And what's especially confusing about this is that all you do is complain about how bad Nintendo games are nowadays then complain that you have to buy a separate console for their games. Your problem really isn't one at all. If you don't like their games and you don't want to buy a separate console for their games, it's pretty obvious what you should do. Don't buy Nintendo consoles anymore. And I know you didn't buy a Wii U so what is the problem? How do you still have things to say in every topic? See, this isn't an issue for most people. You keep pushing this idea that your opinion represents everyone, but really, you're in the minority.
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The NES and SNES did a damn fine job as one's sole console and with the N64 and Gamecube it felt like being your only console was Nintendo's intention, even if it didn't quite work out.
Again with this... I've addressed this too many times. You're not going to get it.
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I would complain about the lack of third party games and get "well just buy a PS3 or Xbox 360 for those" from people on this forum as if dropping another several hundred dollars is a completely reasonable suggestion.
It is because it's not as exclusive as you're making it out to be. Every console has content not available on other consoles. You keep insisting that this is a Nintendo problem. This is something that has persisted for over 30 years. You're pushing blatant consumerism which I can understand because I, myself, am cheap as hell. I don't agree with you because the difference is that you're so unreasonable about it. "I want X without having to buy Y." First, that's everyone. We all want more for less. Second, regardless of whether you think something should be a certain way, it isn't so why complain about it? Most people just deal with it like adults. "Hmph, I don't want to buy more than one console." Okay, sorry? What answer do you want from us?

Offline SixthAngel

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Re: Satoru Iwata: Hubris versus Western Culture
« Reply #92 on: April 16, 2013, 01:09:12 AM »
Classic Ian.

Nintendo takes its fans for granted despite reviving dead franchises only they care about like PUNCH OUT and Kid fucking Icarus. They funded a new Sin and Punishment for god's sake.  If you are a longtime Nintendo fan they have done all kinds of things to cater YOU. Even though NSMB became an insane seller do you honestly think that was revived despite long time fans? They may have come out with a bunch the games recently its something long time fans should actually enjoy since 2D mario was dead for 2 generations.

The problem is this: It's either be blamed for not making something new or be blamed for making something too new.

Nintendo makes a game fans have been asking for- stop rehashing games we haven't seen in years, I want something new
Nintendo makes a new game- beg for games like Nintendo's current franchises, ignore new game because it uses motion controls/is a downloadable game so it doesn't get a marketing push(notice quality isn't even mentioned, just marketing)

Frankly, as a long time Nintendo fan I am sick of being told Nintendo's new games aren't for me. Because you don't like Wii Sports doesn't mean that most Nintendo fan's don't.