Author Topic: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold  (Read 26587 times)

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Offline Crimm

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TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« on: November 01, 2009, 03:56:43 PM »
This is the talkback thread for NWR Round-Table 3.  Feel free to provide feedback, and your thoughts.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 03:59:12 PM by Crimm »
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Offline NWR_Neal

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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2009, 01:26:27 AM »
Love the inserted pictures.

So, anyone want to place bets on who the next Spyborgs Line offender will be?
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Offline King of Twitch

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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2009, 02:03:59 AM »
I went through most of it thinking about saying something that James finally says:

"I don't think MadWorld is a fair example. It simply wasn't a top-quality game...The challenge is to make the quality and "innovation" public knowledge, especially among traditional gamers. "

Plus, it was pretty violent. Disaster "wasn't good" and RE and WWII have been done to death. Doesn't sound like third parties are even trying. And you can't blame the success of Wii __ on it.

And... "since many people can't afford to always buy $60 dollar games on release day" for 360/PS3 why do they put so much effort into them anyways?

WHAT'S THE POINT OF MAKING SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR
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Offline Enner

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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2009, 02:40:29 AM »
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WHAT'S THE POINT OF MAKING SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR

Well, not all people. I'm guessing there are enough people to purchase whatever big-ticket or niche-ticket game there is on the 360 and PS3. Cases in point are Capcom's Resident Evil 5 and Street Fighter 4 and Atlus's Demon's Souls.

As for Spyborgs, it's a disheartening to see it sell so poorly. However, the gameplay videos I've seen makes it look like an antiquated beat'em up that doesn't have nostalgia or a license to help it.

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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2009, 02:52:26 AM »
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It really disappoints me that Dead Space Extraction isn't doing better. Like I said in my review, it's top-shelf horror with great gameplay to back it up. And EA has been doing a valiant job of advertising it in print and on websites. I think that just means that MOST people with a Wii just don't care about "mature" titles. Meanwhile, Wii Fit is the 3rd-best-selling game of the decade.

I disagree here. Most people with a Wii didn't want yet another on-rails-shooter game, especially with a game that was from another genre that is more sorely needed and strongly desired on Wii. If this were a 3rd person action type game it would have sold a lot better I believe.
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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2009, 03:07:53 AM »
"What's a Spyborg?"

"Oh, about a buck fifty."


Get it?

Edit:  I think SpyBorgs didn't sell because there's nothing interesting about it.  EVERY consumer would look at it and say "Who cares?"  500 copies is the range where the developers' parents, friends, siblings, and teachers bought a copy of the game, really.  No kidding.

As far as Resident Evil selling well?  It's new content.  There was reason to buy it.  It takes an established, big-name franchise, and then gave in backstory and new content.  Yes, some of what was shown is the same "story" as what was in a few RE games, but all in all, it's a new experience, created independently, offered as a new game.  I reiterate, there's new content, story and gameplay-wise.  If I own console X or Y, it doesn't matter, because there wasn't any delay for this, either.

You look at Dead Space Extraction, or whatever it's called, it's one of several things:  It's late to the game.  Why not get one of the other Dead Space titles on another console?  After all, they came out first, and as far as I'm aware, the Wii is essentially the same game, except on rails.  Am I wrong?  To be honest, I'm not certain if it is or isn't.  Who's responsibility was it to tell me otherwise, though?  Exactly, that's a marketing problem.  To be honest, all I know about the game is that it's a thriller-type game in an on-rails setting.  I read early on it was a remake, but I don't even know.  Had I bought the original dead space, there'd be no reason to pick this up.  It's new content, but the story isn't new, and there's nothing worth visiting if you've already played the first.  If you haven't played either, why not get the first?  It's the original, and this game is just a method to reach the story out to more people.  EA got themselves in a lose-lose scenario here with dedicated console gamers.  There wasn't really a "win" scenario here.

MadWorld is a niche title.  Didn't it's sales meet or grow near expectations anyways?

What about No More Heroes?  There's a sequel underway on that.  The new RE game?  Developers making mature titles still aren't taking the platform seriously, as a first-tier system.  Why not?  Because they never did.  It's a self-perpetuating system.  The developers that did treat it well are coming back, like Capcom and Grasshopper.  The ones that never have are still seeing failure.  Seriously, that's all it is.  No one ever expected anyone to care about Spyborgs, and Capcom knew it was a lost cause.  Who knows why they didn't just scrap it, but honestly, it was probably very cheap and very easy to produce, so they just decided to keep going when they realized it would bomb.  It's seriously a game that wouldn't sell on any system.

Offline Dasmos

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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2009, 03:13:36 AM »
Why wasn't Disaster good? I've probably had more fun with it that most of the Wii games I own.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2009, 03:45:31 AM »
Quote
Lukasz Balicki
Why should they focus just on the gaming-centric sites? If they put some TV ads on popular TV stations they will get more awareness.

This. A thousand times this. The people who read gaming websites are a microscopic fraction of the entire game market, even without the Wii's audience expansion figured in (remember how we used to call those who play Madden and Halo casual?). Word of mouth via forums is even more niche, only a tiny fraction of those who read gaming sites actually go to the forums. The proper path for word of mouth is in real life but with niche games you aren't going to find many people with interest in it close enough together for word of mouth propagation. Apparently Nintendo's big hits work in part on word of mouth which is why their sales speed up some time after release.

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If I own a Wii and a 360/PS3 and can buy Dead Space, why on earth would I even bother with Dead Space Extraction (unless I'm a raging Dead Space fanboy who must have every game in the franchise)? If I can buy CoD4: Modern Warfare, why would I even bother with The Conduit? I could go on and on. Nobody is going to buy a mature title on Wii if they can get a better-looking version - with the addition of kick-ass online play, in most cases - of a similar game on 360/PS3. It's just not gonna happen.

Are you certain that the graphics are the only difference between Dead Space and Dead Space Extraction or The Conduit and CoD4? I distinctly remember Dead Space being an entirely different genre from DSE and The Conduit being a fairly shitty game while CoD4 was crowned GOTY by many publications. That sounds like a much bigger difference than just the graphical fidelity.

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Mainline Final Fantasy games will eternally be on the most graphically powerful consoles as long as Square Enix has their way.

"Eternally" apparently meaning "when it fits the argument" because I've never seen any believable claim that the PS2 is more powerful than either of its competitors. Last gen the argument went that Square Enix will eternally only support the market leader.

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It's also hard to put new games in existing franchises on Wii without making it look like a step backward for the franchise. Part of RE4's appeal was its amazing graphics. On the Wii, RE5 would have looked almost exactly like RE4. What's the point in that? Fans of the franchise want to up the ante from a visual standpoint, so RE5 went to 360/PS3 and was a massive hit. Much more of a hit than it would have been on Wii, I'm sure.

I'll have to call citation needed on that because I got the impression that the graphics were just icing on the vastly improved gameplay compared to previous Resident Evil games. Just making the assumption that people demand better graphics doesn't make it so, without proper data we cannot say if RE5 wouldn't have sold just as much with less advanced graphics (and better aiming controls).

Quote
In general, I'd say video game developers (ESPECIALLY the top-tier developers like Konami, Bioware, Capcom, etc.) want to make their games using the newest technology, not technology from 2001. The result? Outside of Nintendo's own development teams, the best of the best developers in the industry are NOT developing on Wii, because they want to make the best game they can make on the best hardware out there. Developers aren't robots or outsourced labor; they want to be challenged, and in the console realm the Wii's hardware is old news, freaky-deeky control scheme or not.

Anyone giving a **** about what developers want is also a new argument just for this generation. I distinctly remember developers wanting to get the **** away from the PS2 (because it was EXTREMELY clunky and had tons of hidden pitfalls) but PS2 game development kept happening while XBox and Gamecube development stagnated. Developers are salaried employees whose job it is to develop the product management deems necessary, they don't get a say in the platform choice unless they're massive celebrities who have a reputation of knowing how to make a profitable game (and even then they tend to get ignored on that aspect). I'm pretty damn certain management would rather not see their employees challenged because that means more man-hours necessary to deliver the product (and possibly a need for more skilled labour, i.e. higher salaries).

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But again, Nintendo does what's best for Nintendo, and Nintendo was tired of sinking more and more money into game development. All of the "we can't do anything more with graphics, it's all about gameplay now" is smoke'n'mirrors and PR to a large degree. Nintendo just wanted higher return on investment, so they fixed one of the variables in the development cost equation.

I really suggest you read up on the Blue Ocean Strategy and Disruptive Innovation, the lower graphics investment was a necessary part of the Wii's success and they would have failed had they spent much more on that (overspending on graphics beyond what the customer cares about was the weakness Nintendo exploited to beat the incumbents). If you want to conjecture on Nintendo's intentions at LEAST read up on what their plan is.

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Consumers are a finicky bunch. Just when you have them figured out, them don't buy your game. Just when you think no one will pay attention to it, they buy it in the droves. Again, it can be hard to determine what your consumer wants, especially in this rough financial climate. Hell, even when your fans say they will support you, they just plain don't. And not even a winning game can capture the people's attention. The only guaranteed way that a game WILL sell is if its based on a beloved franchise (like Mario, the Wii series, Halo, etc.), something that consumers are familiar with.

Of course it's hard, that's why there are entire professions dedicated purely to figuring it out. When you pay someone to research that and all he can show for it is sales numbers for already released games (that you could have read up yourself in five minutes) do you think you've got your money's worth? Do you think Wii Fit was just a random fluke? Of course not, they aren't stupid! They observed what the customer wants (which, as is hammered into you in any course on analyzing customer demands, is rarely what they say they want) and made that. If you take the word of your fans for anything you're plain stupid and will go out of business, fans are a very selective sample of your customerbase and thus not statistically useful.

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But Nintendo does bear the brunt of the blame in creating a console that doesn't...let's say..."serve the interests" of most third-party developers.

What interests? Making a quick buck with bullshit? Resident Evil and Call of Duty aren't the only core market franchises that have a legacy to call upon, I'm pretty damn sure if they made for the Wii what sold on the PS2 they'd have success, just noone really tries that (mot PS2 ports are of games that DIDN'T sell on the PS2) and that's just the laziest possible approach.

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Right now the Wii's 50 million+ userbase is, for many companies, one in which about 49,750,000 people will never even think about touching their game, because all they care about is Wii Sports, Wii Fit, and whatever derivatives Nintendo can spin off of them.

Nintendo isn't gifted by god or privileged by the government, what Nintendo does is what anybody could do if he had the smarts to do it. Instead of taking Nintendo's domination for granted we should ask how third parties let that happen. Nintendo isn't the only company that can make Wii Fit but they are the first one who did it anyway. Why didn't third parties figure that out before Nintendo and earn all that money instead? Because they're lazy fucks, that's why! They want every idea handed to them on a silver platter and their marketing department to sit idle while forwarding NPD numbers to the CEO with a note "let's clone that" attached. They could have made Wii Fit but they had to wait for Nintendo to come around and show them how it's done (and leaving only table scraps for them).

Offline Stratos

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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2009, 03:52:19 AM »
Wow, KDR is on fire. Good counter arguments.

Quote
It's also hard to put new games in existing franchises on Wii without making it look like a step backward for the franchise. Part of RE4's appeal was its amazing graphics. On the Wii, RE5 would have looked almost exactly like RE4. What's the point in that? Fans of the franchise want to up the ante from a visual standpoint, so RE5 went to 360/PS3 and was a massive hit. Much more of a hit than it would have been on Wii, I'm sure.

I'll have to call citation needed on that because I got the impression that the graphics were just icing on the vastly improved gameplay compared to previous Resident Evil games. Just making the assumption that people demand better graphics doesn't make it so, without proper data we cannot say if RE5 wouldn't have sold just as much with less advanced graphics (and better aiming controls).

On top of this, didn't people complain about RE5 being way too much like RE4 except with a co-op option? That is a content and gameplay issue not a graphical matter.
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Offline that Baby guy

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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2009, 07:18:00 AM »
KDR just completely dominated this topic.  A billion valid points, and yes, many third parties had the financial fidelity to create Wii Fit and the balance board, they just didn't.  They did with Guitar Hero, for example, though, and it's worked.  They just didn't think of the rest.

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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2009, 10:29:16 AM »
this should be a podcast . i do't want to read.


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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2009, 10:40:05 AM »
Do we need any more podcasts. I don't think so. Besides it isn't going to kill you to read something.

As far as this topic why are we continuing to post about this KDR knocked this out of the park.
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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2009, 11:21:32 AM »
I think Dead Space: Extraction was marketed as a new entry in the Dead Space series. It might have been marketed superbly, but that is what it was marketed as. Anyone who didn't know that obviously didn't give a crap about the game to begin with.
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Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2009, 11:25:53 AM »
How can you assume that of someone?
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2009, 11:31:38 AM »
I think Dead Space: Extraction was marketed as a new entry in the Dead Space series. It might have been marketed superbly, but that is what it was marketed as. Anyone who didn't know that obviously didn't give a crap about the game to begin with.

When was Dead Space marketed? I have never seen a mention, ad or anything for this game outside of the internet. Who is supposed to give a crap about a game they don't even know exist? I'm still not even sure when the game came out and I was kinda keeping an eye on it.

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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2009, 11:43:07 AM »
No amount of playing "Wii Make Excuses" is going to change a simple fact...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsQBn3g4K4k

This game looks like it might be a lot of fun, comparable to other games in the genre, nice graphics, high production values. On a console with 50,000,000 sold, this game should've sold 50,000 copies by ACCIDENT. I'm serious: 50,000 people (.001% of the Wii userbase) should've picked this game up because they thought it was a different game or maybe just because they thought it would shut their kids up.

No amount of excuses are going to change the fact that something is inherently screwed up here. Here was a title which should've been a slam-dunk kids game and it hasn't sold because...it wasn't marketed? Dead Space WAS marketed and marketed like crazy (I've seen ads for it all over the net), and yet it STILL didn't sell well. What the hell is going on here?

What developer wouldn't look at the situation and shy away from developing for the Wii? Basically, you either release an established franchise that gamers are familiar with or you can expect squat for sales, EVEN with marketing. Or maybe, JUST maybe, you'll manage to catch the interest of the Wii core fanbase and your game will do semi-decently (like Muramasa did) but you still shouldn't expect sales like you could probably expect on other platforms.

Who can blame 3rd parties for not wanting to develop for it when you have such an uphill battle just to get your game NOTICED so you can break even on development costs?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 11:44:45 AM by Smash_Brother »
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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2009, 11:50:12 AM »
I think Dead Space: Extraction was marketed as a new entry in the Dead Space series. It might have been marketed superbly, but that is what it was marketed as. Anyone who didn't know that obviously didn't give a crap about the game to begin with.

When was Dead Space marketed? I have never seen a mention, ad or anything for this game outside of the internet. Who is supposed to give a crap about a game they don't even know exist? I'm still not even sure when the game came out and I was kinda keeping an eye on it.

Did EA give full support of the game? Not really, no. That's not what I'm arguing.

Still, every piece of internet marketing/PR/preview coverage talked about how it was an original take and a prequel.
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Offline Crimm

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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2009, 12:08:55 PM »
I'm going to say this now: 500 copies is the worst thing I've ever seen, but its hardly surprising.  There are tons of Wii games on store shelves that don't stand out.  Spyborg's, for better or worse, is among that group.  It's boxart is fairly generic, and blends right in.

Considering I didn't even realize it was out, and I'm a member of the NINTENDO SPECIFIC MEDIA, this is not good.
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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2009, 12:15:09 PM »
That's what I was saying. No one even knows what these games are or when they come out because they haven't marketed them anywhere outside of the gaming sites on the internet. Not to mention that Spyborgs look like something that should have been all over the DisneyXD/TeenNick channels but there probably wasn't a single commercial.

These publisher have no one to blame but themselves for such horrible sales. You gotta spend money to make money, and they are doing all they can to spend as little on Wii as possible.

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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2009, 12:20:09 PM »
I want to ask everybody this. Did any staff and members buy Spyborgs and Dead Space Extraction?
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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2009, 12:43:49 PM »
I have to agree with people when they say that Spyborgs was marketed towards a niche market. All the ads and promotion I've seen has been geared towards the online gaming community, which is only a small fraction of the entire gaming community.

Yes, I may be playing "Wii Make Excuses", but let's look at the numbers and facts. Muramasa is an equally niche game featuring a very Japanese concept, surreal graphics and gameplay that people might or might not enjoy. On top on that, it was published by a small company, and made by an obscure developer. Meanwhile, Spyborgs was published by CAPCOM, and made by well known developers. The concept was far more familiar than Muramasa's. Yet, Muramasa sold far better than Spyborgs. Why is that?

I may be mistaken, but Ignition did a lot to get the game noticed. They convinced Nintendo to hold a special Muramasa event at their store. They worked with many publications to create exclusive artwork. They went beyond the online community, even if little to no ads were shown on TV.

The marketing of Spyborgs, however, focused mainly on the online community. Yeah, there was an ad on the Nintendo Channel, and it was demoed at E3. But it looks as if Capcom depended on the online community to see if word of mouth would work best in a nearly non-existent marketing campaign. And I hate to say this, but in this economy you can't trust on word on mouth UNLESS you have an amazing product.

That's another thing. Muramasa received great reviews, while Spyborgs only received mediocre reviews. If you are dependent on reviewers and the gaming community to give support to your game you BETTER give them something special.

Smash_Brother: Here's the thing about Dead Space on Wii. The original Dead Space on the 360 and PS3 didn't sell as well as they had hoped, and the game DID receive a big marketing push, including graphic novels, demos, and even an animated movie released on DVD and shown on Sci-Fi.

It seems to me that Dead Space isn't a successful franchise for EA since it didn't do well on all the consoles. And there should have been a degree of success for both titles. The original Dead Space was on the high end consoles KNOWN for catering to HD fans, older fans, and shooting fans. That didn't help. Now, Dead Space Extraction was on Wii, and didn't sell either!

And I'm sorry, but "ads on the net" barely count as full marketing campaign. Sure, it's part of it, but isn't a MAJOR push. Online ads are as effective as the weight loss solutions they offer: a lot of flash, little substance. An online ad barely tells me what the game is all about, and I am likely to ignore them. At the very least, a TV ads shows me gameplay, a clear premise, and if its presented well, it might convince me to look into it.

Maxi: Both games are on my "to buy" list. But since I am unemployed my budget for gaming at the moment is non-existent.
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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2009, 12:43:58 PM »
I've seen about 50 Dead Space Wii commercials on Hulu.

I never knew if it was a different story than the original.  It must not have sunk in.

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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2009, 12:52:41 PM »
Fair enough Pap.

As far as Muramasa and Spyborgs sales comparisons go maybe it has to do with the genre. Spyborgs is a co-op beat em' up and Muramasa is an action game. Maybe it has to do with popularity of genre.
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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2009, 12:56:32 PM »
I think I need to see some games released on other consoles that sold just as poorly as Spyborgs did with the same level of advertising and visibility before I'll believe that this isn't a problem unique to the Wii.
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Re: TALKBACK: NWR Round-Table 3: 500 Copies Sold
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2009, 01:09:56 PM »
I think I need to see some games released on other consoles that sold just as poorly as Spyborgs did with the same level of advertising and visibility before I'll believe that this isn't a problem unique to the Wii.

Trust me, there are flops on the 360 and PS3. For example, Bionic Commando Re-Armed flopped hard, even though the game receive a lot of support from Capcom. The game was heavily advertised, the original game was re-made and released on the 360 and PS3, and it still sold like crap cakes.

Little Big Planet is another example. The game was HEAVILY marketed as a truly special game on the PS3. It gained a lot of support before release, it was highly praised, and the game was everywhere. And yet, it under-performed. Sure, it eventually made some money, and it was successful enough that Sony kept supporting it after released. But at the time, the game sold less than expected, even if it was a heavily hyped FIRST PARTY title on the PS3.
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