Topic: Episode 341: Breaking the Fifth Wall

[Crimm]

We dive into a huge pile of games with BB Action.

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/rfn/34798

Guillaume is out with laptop problems this week (don't worry, we still talk about 2D platformers). This means we did a shorter episode to help Jonny edit, but also that we had an open seat for Billy Berghammer to occupy. He was actually on for a little while last week, but... things happen. Now Billy is on the show for real, launching us into a quasi-free-form New Business show with PS3's The Last of Us and Animal Crossing: New Leaf. Jon follows with a return to Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate, and for once, he has someone on the show to share in the conversation. James somehow finds a way to draw comparisons between Fable 3 and Kid Icarus: Uprising. As far as we can tell, the only thing they have in common is that James dislikes them. On the other hand, Jonny absolutely adores New Super Luigi U, and Billy has been trying it too. We then jump back to Jon and his attempt to resume Dragon Quest IX after a few dormant years, which also leads us into whether and how Dragon Quest X could ever be released outside Japan. The show wraps up with a few observations from Jonny on what it's like to do a podcast in a professional recording studio.

We plan to take a vacation for the 4th of July next week, but hopefully you'll get a recording of the Famicast Live event that just went down. Help make our eventual return more successful by filling up that there email receptacle with questions, comments, and RetroActive game nominations!

[TheFleece]

If you have the Island unlocked you can go to there with guests and play lots of mini games, they are different every day and have different difficulty levels. You can also just grab fruit, swim, fish or hunt bugs for as long as you want. The island has items that you can only get with the medals you earn from playing the games. You can also do all that stuff solo.

[AdmanAbou]

Definitely need some Radio Trivia in my life

[Enner]

Yay! Billy!

I will try not to repeat too much the back-and-forth over Kid Icarus: Uprising. While I wholly enjoyed the game, I recognize and understand the criticisms and complaints raised against it (though I am saddened by the conviction with which they are held). I'm some what dismayed that James too was unable to control the difference between walking and running. I ran in to initial troubles with it, but was able to determine what the game was looking for between walking and the dash that leads to running. It is highly reminiscent of Super Smash Bros. (which is referenced in the video tutorial of walking and running) and I spent a good amount time controlling the difference between the running and sprinting in that game.

Regarding the aiming of the third-person shooting segments, I must admit that even I never felt truly comfortable and confident with it no matter how much time I spent with the settings and training. With very high aiming sensitivity and high friction on the screen movement, I was able to achieve a level of performance and comfort that I could manage. However, it never felt as perfect as a keyboard and mouse or as predictable as a dual-stick controller. Speaking of which, Johnny shows a lack of imagination (or any notion that Uprising's TPS segments can be redeemed) that a traditional control set-up wouldn't make the aiming and movement of the game better. Better controls won't fix the level and enemy encounter design, but it would make the aiming far more manageable. The floating reticle can become fixed and the dash-to-sprint can be assigned to the Shift key or a shoulder button.

Oh, the game doesn't have a lock-on in its controls assists. That is relegated to a power-up that is activated by touch or up on the D-pad. There are control options to use the face buttons for aiming (while have the touch screen available as well), vertical auto-tracking on enemies, and auto-fire.

Japan's track record with third-person shooting action is spotted. From the convolutions of Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots to Lost Planet 2's frequent animation delays, it is to be expected that Kid Icarus: Uprising is in with its peers. While I was able to enjoy the divisive part of Uprising, I cannot deny that there are severely problematic issues that forced myself to overcome.

Great to hear about the visit to the recording studio that is used by Weekend Confirmed. I found it fascinating!

[azeke]

On Kid Icarus:

Interestingly, comparison to Kid Icarus to SSE works in more ways than one. I remember how i couldn't, just couldn't get out of the well in with Link in time before platforms you activate by button vanish. In general Sakurai games require some accurate stick movement and that's sometimes beyond what i can do. But i felt that Kid Icarus had less finnicky control than Smash games, despite that Circle pad is worse than sticks.

Last year when i still had original 3DS i used finger stylus and it controlled fine, because you could easily access most of the touch screen with you thumb.

Year and one lost 3DS after when i came back to game i found that i can't play the game with finger stylus anymore because touchscreen on XL got too big.

Now i alternate between using a stand and crouching on a chair with regular stylus and lying on a bed while putting a big pillow under my chest. I realise fully how ridiculous this sounds, but hey it works.

I still enjoyed the game a lot. Talking didn't bother me, it makes appreciate the game more on replays when suddenly i hear a new piece of dialogue (cause it changes sometimes) or some line i missed on earlier playthroughs.

It's Sakurai's style i guess, lots of audio- and video- noise all thrown into your face.

On Super Luigi:

In both NSMB Wii and U there are stars that require you to use penguin suit to crush bricks.

Time limit also turns me off Super Luigi. I like to take my sweet time through the level.

Your description of the levels reminds of hidden levels from main NSMBU. Most of them featured elements that for some reason ONLY appeared in this levels (like jumping walrus or giant flying turtles). And levels in Super Star world are like that too. Some really cool ideas that are occur in one level.

[Evan_B]

Wow. A lot of Kid Icarus hate.

The controls aren't bad- they're just very sensitive. And if you can't grasp the concept of spinning a globe, I guess the whole thing won't work for you. But citing the dialogue as a negative point? From James Jones, the king of hailing over-the-top experiences?

[luciobar1980]

I absolutely loved KI:U and had close to zero issues with the controls.  :

[NWR_Neal]

Kid Icarus: Uprising is, to me, one of the best games on 3DS. The controls have a learning curve, and I'm sorry for anyone who couldn't get past it. You missed what was likely the best game of 2012 that originally came out in 2012 (I'll concede Xenoblade as being better than KI:U, but it's technically a 2010 game, which is equally baffling).

[Jonnyboy117]

I'm fully aware that some people have no problem with KI's controls, but can we please move past the assertions that people who dislike them just aren't good enough or didn't spend enough time trying to learn? Let's chalk it up to a matter of taste. Just because my opinion is stated bluntly doesn't mean I don't accept disagreement on the subject.

[Pixelated Pixies]

Can I just say how cathartic it is to hear people express anything other than adoration for Uprising (which I purchased at launch and thought was ill-conceived from top to bottom).
 
I would also just like to say to Neal, for me it wasn't a learning curve issue and I certainly didn't miss the best game of 2012. I learnt to deal with the controls and I played the game through to completion. I still thought it was a terrible game.
 
It's not a matter of learning or 'getting past' the controls. For me the controls were just one issue amongst many that Uprising had going against it. As has already been said though, It's a matter of taste.

[azeke]

I'm fully aware that some people have no problem with KI's controls, but can we please move past the assertions that people who dislike them just aren't good enough or didn't spend enough time trying to learn?

Some very same people from this very thread once told me i am a truly sorry man and a fraud for daring to go against popular opinion ;)

At least, Kid Icarus is very recent game so its' fanbase doesn't suffer from hurt nostalgia.

While some will enjoy a good catharsis session from validating his opinion through a podcast, i will enjoy me some irony.

[NWR_Neal]

Well, my blunt statement is I loved Kid Icarus: Uprising. It's not blind adoration. I played the crap out of that game and dug it. I'm aware the controls are difficult, but they worked really well for me. It's a case where I hear people struggling so much with the controls and I feel like I played a different game (and I'm a lefty to boot who eventually learned how to play the game right-handed on the XL).

So just as easily as everyone is like "How could anyone get past those controls?", I don't understand how people couldn't get past those controls.

[Jonnyboy117]

Cross-posting from GAF due to similar, parallel discussions:

I coped with those controls for over ten hours. I do agree that replacing the controls with something more familiar probably wouldn't alleviate my problem with the game (and tried to state this very clearly on the show). I think the game has more intrinsic design problems that are independent of the control scheme, though some are perhaps exacerbated thereby. My main issue with KI is that even in the moments where I wasn't fighting controls (including the flying segments), I wasn't actually enjoying it very much and would become frustrated with various other things, such as the level design and weapon systems.

I've been on the other side of this kind o debate with games like Fluidity. In that case, I freely admit that the controls are difficult to learn and don't always provide the precision I'd want (though there are some advantages, arguably) -- I just felt happy to deal with any control gripes because the underlying game is so perfectly attuned to my tastes. Kid Icarus is not. So this obsession with controls really overlooks what I think are other, equally serious problems with that game, which are rarely discussed.

[azeke]

All the criticisms about Fluidity's controls i read was about jumping put on a waggle which is simply baffling because it is completely fine.

Especially compared to control method (cloud) you get about 70% into the game which was absolutely broken and counter intuitive. They even had to add option about these controls and neither option felt good and natural.

I would have understood if people rightly complained about that. But unfortunately, all i see: "hurr durr motion controls", "hurr waggle durr".

[Evan_B]

What's wrong with the level design? It demands precision, and that requires mastering the controls. It's an action game, and a more successful one than most because the controls allow it to be breakneck and wild. There are some that have no patience for adjusting to that style of gameplay, and that's fine- maybe action games aren't for you. But the excess of slow, clunky beat-em-ups in recent years has weighed heavily on my heart, personally, so games like Uprising, and to cite another example- Bayonetta are refreshing to me.

It sounds to me like it's just not your kind of game, Jonny. That's perfectly fine, though- but for someone like me who loved the controls and level design and multiplayer, saying it should have stuck with being a rail shooter is a stab in the heart.

[Enner]

Having played a lot of first-person and third-person shooters, the design of the ground levels are at best tolerable and at worst confusing. In combination or due to the simplicity of the controls and the field of view given, there's not a whole lot to do besides walking, peeking, shooting, and dodging. The design of the enemies can introduce frustrating moments where Pit is turned around or ambushed. Also, the vehicles and auto-jump platforming aren't fun.

Regarding the weapons, the lack of weapon switching within a level can be seen as a negative. Practically speaking, it is best to stick to weapon types you're comfortable with. The game cares not if you never use clubs, claws, or other close-range weapon types. However, that is such a waste for some players who want to use all the different weapons in their most advantageous conditions. I think the Select button or down on the D-pad do nothing so there were buttons available to assign weapon switching.

On MMOs and Monster Hunter grinding:
With MMOS, there is a financial incentive to have low drop-rates for critical items and materials. Making those things rare might lead players to play more and subscribe for more time. As for Monster Hunter and games that don't have subscription fees or a cash shop, I can only assume that the design comes from a misguided notion that players who put in more time or are more lucky to be rewarded.

[azeke]

Well after being inspired by podcast and this discussion i stayed up to 3am last night and finally finished the game. And then played some multiplayer.

What's wrong with the level design? It demands precision, and that requires mastering the controls.

Honestly, i agree that level design could have used more work. It's just got annoying when you fall off a platform for the tenth time. I can concede that it was my own fault cause i'm not good with analog control (i'm even worse in Smash games), but it's still annoying.
Especially when there are entire levels all built around very intense tests for your skills in 3d platforming, like Pandora's Confusion Labyrinth and others.
Also when i played yesterday, i got stuck on Dark Pit chapter, i forgot what to do here (i originally played it a year ago and i vaguely think i got lost the first time as well) and just roamed it back and forth. After 15 or so minutes or aimless walking around the level, Palutena even asked me if i got lost and gave some directions. Too bad it was too fast and text didn't stay for long.

But the excess of slow, clunky beat-em-ups in recent years has weighed heavily on my heart, personally, so games like Uprising, and to cite another example- Bayonetta are refreshing to me.

I'm playing Bayonetta this week and it's nothing mindblowing in terms level design.
So far into the game (i think, chapter 5?) level design is limited to "come to the arena, we fill it with baddies, you kill them, we open next arena". From what i understand that is endemic to entire genre.

But what you're right saying that Uprising and Bayonetta both deliver in action gameplay department.

I played two rounds of multiplayer yesterday for the first time properly. It turned out to be surprisingly fun. I won one round of Dark vs Light and lost another. I think i used some kind of overpowered drill that i got in story mode. It gave ridiculous boosts to my speed, attack, melee and still had some bonus effect like confusion and something else i don't even remember.

I guess for the second round people changed their gear accordingly. Or maybe i lost cause AI put me in the role of angel in the middle of the match and i just couldn't understand what am i supposed to do and i lost my OP drill cause angel has different loadout.

Lots of love for Kid Icarus i think comes from the fact it is, as a whole package, manages to tick off all the checkboxes of modern "AAA game":

• third person shooter
• strong, entirely voice acted, story
• loot system
• online competitive multiplayer

It's really hard not to appreciate such a rare occasion coming from Nintendo PLUS the usual Nintendo/Sakurai tropes, like putting gameplay on top, giving ridiculous arcade points based difficulty options and having a signature wall of achievements to fill.

[Fiendlord_Timmay]

Having also just played Kid Icarus, I also have to disagree with most of what was said about it on the show. While I agree that the controls are awkward and unwieldy (which I really think everyone agrees on) it didn't significantly diminish my experience. I think the reasons I enjoy this game are exactly the same reasons somebody else might dislike it.

For example, the goofy dialogue and the chatter among the characters gave the universe a very unique (and in my opinion charming) flavor. However, I am fully aware that this style of humor is not for everyone and I will admit that it did get a BIT excessive at times, but I vastly prefer the constant conversation to dead silence. Because let's be honest, the gameplay is pretty repetitive and doesn't require THAT much strategy or concentration, so the banter between the cast (and the pretty environments) is truly what make each level unique and memorable.

I also disagree that the majority of the level design of the on foot sections is "bad." A few levels (such as Pandora's Labyrinth and that tower with all the wind currents) are very frustrating and I did not enjoy those very much, but those cases all have one thing in common: they try to shoehorn platforming into this game, where it really doesn't belong. Other than that, I really can't think of an on-foot level that I disliked.

saying it should have stuck with being a rail shooter is a stab in the heart.

Also this. Nintendo already has Sin and Punishment and Star Fox as their pure rail shooter series. In my mind, the inclusion of the on-foot sections really justifies this game's existence. Otherwise it really is just a Sin and Punishment reskin. And as someone who is largely indifferent towards that genre, I think I would have enjoyed the game significantly less if that was all it had to offer.

[/size] i got stuck on [/size]Dark Pit chapter[/color][/size], i forgot what to do here (i originally played it a year ago and i vaguely think i got lost the first time as well) and just roamed it back and forth.

Really? And here I thought one of the major complaints about the level design was going to be that it was too linear. I mean, there are glowing green arrows pointing you in the right direction all the time. Although I believe there is an option to turn that off in the options, so maybe you did that and forgot about it?

Some other random thoughts:

There is a control option to use ABXY to aim the cursor during the on foot sections, which I found a bit more manageable, as it eliminated the whole "spinning a globe" concept that I couldn't quite wrap my head around. It's still slow, clunky and certainly not ideal, but I found it ever so slightly more intuitive than the stylus controls.

Ultimately, I've come to the conclusion that the reasons I like this game really have nothing to do with the gameplay. I think this game has certain intangible qualities that make it more than the sum of its parts (in my opinion at least). To me, it was about a goofy, quirky, lighthearted ride that was just an enjoyable experience.

I know as Nintendo fans, we're drawn to games that put an emphasis on gameplay, and we jump all over people who praise games like Heavy Rain and say "It's a GAME isn't it? Shouldn't it be gameplay first, everything else later?" Although such games may not be my favorites, I can still enjoy them for the things they do bring to the table. But again, it's all a matter of taste, and those same qualities that I enjoy may turn somebody else off.




BUT ANYWAY, I really enjoyed your appearance on Weekend Confirmed, Jonny. When I saw the picture on Facebook of you with the crew, I immediately downloaded the episode and started listening. A crossover between my two favorite podcasts?! HELL YES.

I hope they invite you back sometime, but with fewer other guests so you can be on the whole show. I also couldn't help but feel that their ignorance of Nintendo held you back from your full potential. Conversation on this show is the best when you guys can bounce off of each other and get into the minutiae, whereas on that episode, I couldn't help but feel you were almost educating the others on Nintendo.

Regardless, I thought you did well and I thought you were very composed. I was surprised at the end when you said that you were really nervous. I hope that you have convinced some Weekend Confirmed fans to listen to RFN now, so they can hear some really good, meaty, passionate Nintendo discussion.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

Hmmm, let's see here. I agree that the Kid Icarus controls are clumsy at best, but I put up with it because I enjoyed the banter and overall roller coaster ride of locales you visit during the course of the story mode. I've had very little desire to go back to it after completing the main story, though--I'm not a big score-attack fan, and am not really interested in attempting to master the game's systems for multi-player. So basically, I enjoyed its presentation enough to outweigh its flaws, but the criticisms expressed in this episode are perfectly valid. I often get annoyed with all the meaningless blather in Japanese games / anime, but usually it's because of (1) taking itself overly seriously with heavily stilted terminology or (2) repeating the same audio clips over and over again. Kid Icarus doesn't take itself seriously, and the scripted dialogue means it doesn't repeat itself. I like those things. But I can see others getting annoyed by the inane tangents they go on....

And yes, I am one of those voices that criticizes Fluidity. I bought that game after hearing about it on RFN and I just couldn't get into it. I never got the feel for jumping. I wouldn't call it a "waggle" problem. I just couldn't get the feel for the physics, a cognitive disconnect I couldn't get past. I'm sure there's clever level design in this game but I wasn't appreciating it so I stopped playing. When I went back to give it a second chance a year later, I ran into the same barriers to entry, unfortunately.

[Pandareus]

I'm not sure how much of a spirited defense of Kid Icarus Uprising I could have provided, given that I haven't played it in months. I don't understand the complaints about the dialog, though: yes, it's a Saturday morning cartoon. And that's awesome. How is that not way better than 99% of games out there? The banter between Palutena and Pit is genuinely amusing, and it flows as well as in games with similar banter-during-gameplay such as Uncharted, Batman: The Brave and the Bold, and LEGO City Undercover.

Hearing about the Week-End Confirmed experience was pretty cool. "Everyone, including Arthur, was really nice to me", hahaha. I love that you single him out as being a potential asshole.

I listened to that episode and you did a great job, but I'm really not a fan of the show. Some of the guests were really obnoxious, especially the guy who wouldn't shut up about Charles Martinet's stereotypical Italian impressions. Garnett Lee is alright, but honestly I always idolized Jeremy Parish more than him. 1up yours was my third favorite 1up podcast after Retronauts and Good Grief...

This is not me tooting my own horn but speaking as a fan of RFN before I was on it: RFN is a better podcast than 1up Yours was.

[Jonnyboy117]

Not sure if this was clear on the show, but I enjoyed the banter in KI far more than James and consider it a key part of the overall presentation that is the one part of the game I really do like. That's why I said that I'd like to just watch the game rather than play it. I didn't expect Billy to agree with James about the writing, and I didn't have a good chance or a strong argument to oppose their stance, though I do disagree with them on that point.

[Leon S Kennedy]

I enjoyed hearing the details on the workings of Weekend Confirmed.  Thanks for the insider information.  Keep up the great work on the podcast.

[Crimm]

The difference is I just played a game with ACTUAL funny banter in Asura's Wrath. I think it is unquestionably better at making fun of itself and providing characterization than Kid Icarus. It also doesn't deviate into inanities at the same rate I draw breath. It doesn't have to break character or shatter reality to get a joke in. The banter goes with the action in ways the writers of Kid Icarus would find themselves dazzled by. It also knows when to shut up. I have an absurd tolerance for this ****, I've sat through hundreds of hours of the notoriously chatty Tales games, but I've never had a game talk this much. I've never had a game make me think "will you please shut up."


And I did playing Kid Icarus. I was actually taken aback by the though. It was jarring that I "went" there mentally. I stopped and thought about what was about this use of chatter that drove me to think this way. It was the volume of fire and the depths of pointlessness the game heaped upon me.


As for the controls, I will tolerate no defense of them. They're ****. They just are. They have more in common with a hidden item game (pan the screen around like a globe and point your pointer on the object) than a shooter. Any argument that involves any kind of "you just didn't take enough time to get used to them" is self-defeating. I've beat the game. I've played multiplayer rounds. I am an undeniably competent and broadly-experienced video game player. If, after this much time, I still don't "get" the controls then any argument that they're competently designed is totally flaccid. It isn't a matter of "getting" them. I've beaten the game. They don't feel good. They're imprecise. They're not tight. Me playing the game more isn't going to remove the floatiness from the aim.

[lolmonade]

I won't argue the dialogue points of Kid Icarus: Uprising.  I think it's a bit cringeworthy, but I know that's more a matter of taste.
 
What I can't understand is how anyone would defend the control scheme.  The stylus controls are completely miserable, and the primary cause of why I returned it a week after I bought it.  I can appreciate how someone could work through the controls to appreciate the core game if this style of game was in your wheelhouse, but it just wasn't a hurdle I could see tolerating, which was disappointing, since it's such a great looking 3DS game.
 
 

[Pandareus]

I'll go as far as saying I enjoy the controls. I think they work well for the type of game this is. But I'm also against the homogenization of controls. I despise the fact that 95% of games out there all seem to control the same. There is something to be said for familiarity and using "what works", but I also believe that we're losing something in terms of experimentation with game design.