Author Topic: A Gamers' Manifesto  (Read 5671 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Shift Key

  • MISTER HAPPY-GO-LUCKY
  • Score: 9
    • View Profile
A Gamers' Manifesto
« on: May 31, 2005, 03:13:11 AM »
http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/games/manifesto.html

I found this to be a funny read, even if he did whinge a whole lot.
That and he mentions crates, so instantly he gets bonus marks.

Favourite quote:
Quote

Instant-Failure Stealth Levels. Ack. This brings back horrible memories of a Goldeneye level where if you tripped an alarm, an infinite number of bad guys poured forth. We knew a man who failed that level 37 times, then got the Infinite Health cheat for it and came back. He intentionally tripped the alarm, the guards rushed out. Laughing maniacally, he proceeded to shoot those ****ers for four hours, killing 1,183 of them - 682 with groin shots - before his thumbs cramped up.Your game should not create this kind of bitterness.


Is he right somewhere among all the ranting? What would you guys change or whinge about?  

Offline Mario

  • IWATA BOAT!?
  • Score: 8
    • View Profile
RE: A Gamers' Manifesto
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2005, 03:17:39 AM »
Ahaha, well he's right about SOME things, however some things he just put in there for the sake of complaining. Such as
Quote

Ammo starvation. I'm looking at you, Resident Evil for the Gamecube. I have a gun. LET ME USE IT. Don't pretend your game is "challenging" because you only give me four bullets to kill eight zombie dogs with.

Resident Evil is a SURVIVAL HORROR GAME, not an action game. If he wants lots of ammo he can just play one of the generic PC FPS's out there and type in the unlimited ammo code.  

Offline KDR_11k

  • boring person
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
RE: A Gamers' Manifesto
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2005, 04:17:27 AM »
Lots of stupid comments in that article, some dev houses are posting this thing on their internal "look what idiots are out there" list. Many complaints, such as "make the invisible walls visible" are badly thought out because then everyone would complain about there being walls everywhere*. AI isn't a trivial problem, either.

*= I love UT2004's method there, in some maps when you leave the map boundaries you get a warning "You have been targeted by an orbital ion cannon". Return to the playing field within five seconds or have a huge beam come down from the sky and obliterate you.

Offline Ian Sane

  • Champion for Urban Champion
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE: A Gamers' Manifesto
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2005, 08:49:03 AM »
"Resident Evil is a SURVIVAL HORROR GAME, not an action game. If he wants lots of ammo he can just play one of the generic PC FPS's out there and type in the unlimited ammo code."

Ironically Resident Evil 4 has demonstrated that lots of ammo does work in a survival horror game.  I don't think being defenseless is needed to create a scary atmosphere and make it hard to survive.  RE's big problem I think is that you can make the game unbeatable for yourself by wasting ammo early on.  I hate save focused games that allow the possibility of forcing you to start the whole game over because of mistakes you made early on.

"Give us A.I. that will actually outsmart us now and then."

I'd say this is case-by-case.  Mario doesn't need Goombas that dodge your jump but games that strive for more realism should have better AI.  I think it depends on the enemy too.  A zombie wouldn't use any strategy but a Navy SEAL would.

I agree with the overall opinion of the article.  The general attitude seems to be that the next generation is looking pretty boring.

Edit: Okay I've now read the whole article and there is one thing that I strongly disagree with.  This guy is clearly a fan of American game design because to him immersion is everything.  I think fun is what matters.  I don't really care if I feel like I'm in a real world.  I agree with him though about how stupid it is when your character can't jump over a f*cking garden hose because the dev didn't want you to go over there.  But I hate that because it's lazy game design, not because it takes me out of the game.

I also strongly disagree with his suggestion that all games have quick save.  Quick save is for lazy PC gamers who abuse it so they can inch by inch go through a game perfectly.  I feel that makes games too easy.  I have no problem with save points provided they aren't stupidly designed.  Save points should be right next to the boss room for example.  I also like the Zelda method where you can save at any time but you don't save the exact position you're in.  The puzzles stay solved and your items remain but you start at the entrance to the dungeon.  I think the "rule" should be "be fair with saving".  Don't make me fight five bosses in a row but don't let me cheat either.  One feature I would love to see though would be the ability for the console itself to do a quick save for when I have to leave real quick or something but then when I resume it deletes my save so I have a quick save for emergencies but I can't abuse it to play a game inch by inch.

Offline nickmitch

  • You can edit these yourself now?!
  • Score: 82
    • View Profile
    • FACEBOOK!
RE: A Gamers' Manifesto
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2005, 03:52:05 PM »
Ian: So, you mean like a sleep mode for console games like the one for LoZ:LTTP and Metroid Fusion? I'd be for that because I got stuck on Fusion and forgot that I had to go to church and the sleep mode really helped me out there.  
TVman is dead. I killed him and took his posts.

Offline Ian Sane

  • Champion for Urban Champion
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE: A Gamers' Manifesto
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2005, 05:30:23 PM »
Not sleep mode because then the console is still on.  I'm thinking like a save state only when you load up the game it deletes.  So you can save whenever you want but it's just to keep your place.  You can only load it up again once to continue where you were.  Think of it like a bookmark for a game so that you can put a game down between save points.

Offline Don'tHate742

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE: A Gamers' Manifesto
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2005, 06:12:26 PM »
That'll work quite nicely actually.

I have to disagree with something you said earlier though: "This guy is clearly a fan of American game design because to him immersion is everything. I think fun is what matters."

I understand that point, but what you don't understand is the varying levels of immersion. In Metriod Prime, the game was only slightly better due to the addition of water that rolled down your helmet while running through a waterfall. Same goes with your ability to see your hand while in X-ray mode. These things don't make the gameplay any better, and I think that is what you meant by your comment Ian. But Immersion doesn't exactly have to do with graphics, and its ability to draw you in, only part of it. An immersive controller is far more important.

It is very important to feel like your in the game; we play our best when we can control our charachter as we would control ourselves.  No amount of graphics can achieve that (bringing you into the game). You can feel like your in the game world through graphics, but it's FAR more important to feel like you are the charachter of that world. His sword is your sword, his sheild is your shield. That concept is vital to any and every game.

The most fun any game can bring is when you feel like you are the one doing all these incredible things. Chucking grenades, being chased by the police, defeating a gaint Octorok are all examples of intense gameplay. However, the gameplay is only as good as the controls. If you can't turn your controller transparent, then you will not have fun at all. You will accidently throw a grenade at yourself; get hit and flipped over by 4 squad cars; and that Octorok will claim your life. Immersive/intuitive controls are soooo very important.

In a way, I agree with you Ian. If I were making a game, this would be my priority list.

1. GamePlay
2. Immersive/Intuitive controls
3. Graphics
4. Story

I think his main complaint was that games didn't draw you in enough, but he went on the wrong tangent.

"lol in my language that means poo" - Stevey

"WTF is your languange" - Vudu

Offline Myxtika1 Azn

  • The Master of the Fists
  • Score: 2
    • View Profile
RE:A Gamers' Manifesto
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2005, 06:33:59 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Not sleep mode because then the console is still on.  I'm thinking like a save state only when you load up the game it deletes.  So you can save whenever you want but it's just to keep your place.  You can only load it up again once to continue where you were.  Think of it like a bookmark for a game so that you can put a game down between save points.




Nintendo already did that a la Majora's Mask.  To be honest, I liked playing the game like that and I do not understand why some other people hates it so much.
500 years ago, I shook the Pillars of Heaven.  Why should I fear a runt like you?

Offline nickmitch

  • You can edit these yourself now?!
  • Score: 82
    • View Profile
    • FACEBOOK!
RE: A Gamers' Manifesto
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2005, 07:13:07 PM »
But with what you're saying, Ian, if the console is on then it would overheat (eventually). It would only work if you could turn off the console or have it go in to a power-saving mode (on but not really on). I'm just saying that you have to have a catch or it defeats the purpose of the argument.

Edit: Ok it'll work like this:
One: You're playing Metroid Prime 3 on your Rev.
Then: You get stuck and begin forming a headache.
So: You use this "Shut 'n' Save" feature. (Let's call it that for now.) This makes your Rev shut down but allows you to boot back up and it's as if you had mearly hit pause.
Later: You've come back from getting an advil, a sandwich, and a little gamefaqs help. and you turn on you're Rev and get right back to it.
Note: You won't be able to just put in another game 'cause that'll erase the data.
TVman is dead. I killed him and took his posts.

Offline Bloodworth

  • Phantom
  • *
  • Score: 2
    • View Profile
RE: A Gamers' Manifesto
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2005, 07:43:49 PM »
Haven't any of you played Fire Emblem?  It's constantly saving everything you do, so frequently that you can't even reset when you make a wrong move because you'll be right back where you turned it off.
Daniel Bloodworth
Managing Editor
GameTrailers

Offline Ian Sane

  • Champion for Urban Champion
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE: A Gamers' Manifesto
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2005, 09:23:40 PM »
"Nintendo already did that a la Majora's Mask."

No they didn't.  You could temp save at save points.  I was in a dungeon when my parents asked me to help them get some lumber.  I had to pause the game and leave the N64 on for a couple of hours while I helped out.

TVman you're overcomplicating the idea.  The console gets turned off.  The "bookmark" is saved to the memory card or hard drive or whatever the console uses for permanent storage.  You can swap games out all you want.  The console recognizes what game is what.  When it loads a game it checks to see if a bookmark exists for it and a message comes up asking if you want to continue from the bookmark.  Pick "yes" and the game loads up where you left off and deletes the bookmark.  Pick "no" and the bookmark remains in storage and is ignored until you reset the game.

Offline nemo_83

  • Dream Master
  • Score: -1
    • View Profile
RE:A Gamers' Manifesto
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2005, 11:08:15 PM »
There were some funny parts, but mostly this was a massive bitchy rant.  He has some points about AI needing to develop, but I doubt he has any new ideas about how to make these virtual robots seem alive.  Personally I was only impressed twice this generation with AI.  Once when I first played Halo, and once in a temple in WW when a hand caught something I threw at it and it threw it back at me.  I froze in disbelief and got hit by the object I threw.

I liked how the enemies flooded in in Goldeneye.  Yeah it was kind of crazy, but I have spent long periods laughing while I shot enemies while cheating on Bond.

Life is like a hurricane-- here in Duckburg

Offline Caillan

  • Token New Zealander
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE:A Gamers' Manifesto
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2005, 02:42:07 AM »
Overall I think this article is pretty stupid. He's just another gamer who's become bored with what's currently available and is bigoted enough to think he knows what can fix it.

Quote

This guy is clearly a fan of American game design because to him immersion is everything. I think fun is what matters. I don't really care if I feel like I'm in a real world.


I completely agree. Buzzwords are the mosquitos of the industry. They won't bugger off. And right now the dominant buzzword is Immersion.

I've read a few (American) books about game design and I was not particuarly impressed. In the 'meat' of the books, regarding actual design, they usually state the obvious (rock-paper-scissor patterns for 'balance' etc) or are overly dogmatic in approach. A fair portion of the books is spent talking about realistic goals, good working environments, and how to deal with publishers. But games are still new and we should be more romantic in approach. Treasure could come only out of Japan.

Quote

Personally I was only impressed twice this generation with AI. Once when I first played Halo. . .


What? Perhaps I missed something because I've only ever played it once and not for long, but doesn't the AI in Halo completely suck? Like, enemies that run into walls or don't react when you shoot the guy beside them? To be honest I don't care much about AI either. It's cool when a hand throws something back at you or an enemy runs for cover, but it doesn't change the game. I remember some idiot in a game store trying to sell me a Playstation on Medal of Honor and trying to sell me Medal of Honor on the fact that gurads would kick back grenades thrown at them. With exactly the same animation each time. What's the point?

Offline nemo_83

  • Dream Master
  • Score: -1
    • View Profile
RE:A Gamers' Manifesto
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2005, 12:31:25 PM »
I tried to respond earlier, but my computer went crazy so I'm gonna try to keep this brief.

I liked how in WW and Halo enemies would act affraid sometimes rather than everyone of them being mindless machines.

It is hard to define what is real AI though.  Preprogrammed imperfections in characters can make them seem to be thinking, but is it really AI when the X response was programmed to happen when Y event happens.
Life is like a hurricane-- here in Duckburg

Offline KDR_11k

  • boring person
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
RE: A Gamers' Manifesto
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2005, 09:58:52 AM »
It is hard to define what is real AI though.

No it isn't. Real AI is capable of independant thought and can learn without constraints. It doesn't rely on scripts or other tricks. It uses a neural network. THAT is REAL AI. The kind of AI that might decide mid-game "Hey, we're better off if we just start to negotiate!".

Offline nickmitch

  • You can edit these yourself now?!
  • Score: 82
    • View Profile
    • FACEBOOK!
RE: A Gamers' Manifesto
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2005, 08:11:53 PM »
But, Ian, isn't that just a quick save?
TVman is dead. I killed him and took his posts.

Offline Ian Sane

  • Champion for Urban Champion
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE: A Gamers' Manifesto
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2005, 08:20:57 PM »
"But, Ian, isn't that just a quick save?"

If you want to call it that go ahead.  The crucial part is that the save is automatically deleted after loading so you can't abuse it.  The deleting part is pretty unique.  Aside from Fire Emblem nothing really does anything like that.  Fire Emblem's method is very game specific.  This would a console feature that works on every game like the save state in an emulator.

Offline nickmitch

  • You can edit these yourself now?!
  • Score: 82
    • View Profile
    • FACEBOOK!
RE: A Gamers' Manifesto
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2005, 08:27:28 PM »
Oh I get it now. What you're saying is that you can start from the save but if you made a mistake then you couldn't go back to it. I see it now.
TVman is dead. I killed him and took his posts.

Offline Caillan

  • Token New Zealander
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE:A Gamers' Manifesto
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2005, 08:28:51 PM »
Quote

This would a console feature that works on every game like the save state in an emulator.


Save states and quick saves aren't a good edition to most games. They encouage you to augment the gaming experiece so you don't lose, so that you don't feel much of a threat and won't play the game as seriously as you would otherwise. They will ruin a game unless you train yourself to use them sparesly or not at all. (For me, quick saves were the worst part about Baldur's Gate 2.) A game called Oriental Express, which I've never played but would love to, has a feature where you can actually wind back time if you want to try something different. That's the sort of creative and solid alternative to quick saves I'd like to see.

EDIT: Sorry about that, I read your new posts containing the phrases 'quick save' and 'save state' and homed in to a rant.

Offline Ian Sane

  • Champion for Urban Champion
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE: A Gamers' Manifesto
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2005, 09:12:52 PM »
"Save states and quick saves aren't a good edition to most games. They encouage you to augment the gaming experiece so you don't lose, so that you don't feel much of a threat and won't play the game as seriously as you would otherwise."

What part of "the save is automatically deleted after loading so you can't abuse it" isn't clear?  You can't augment the gaming experience so that you don't lose because you can only load the save once.  A quick save allows you to save after every step so you can keep reloading the same save everytime you make a mistake and have a perfect run.  You can't do that here.  It only allows you to save at any time so you can turn your console off and return exactly where you left off.

Offline KDR_11k

  • boring person
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
RE: A Gamers' Manifesto
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2005, 09:32:39 PM »
I've seen quite a few games, from portable (Game & Watch Gallery Advance, anyone?) over GC up to PS2 using "read once" quicksaves. It's DEFINITELY not new.

Offline TMW

  • The Man Whore, if you're wondering.
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE: A Gamers' Manifesto
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2005, 07:42:03 AM »
But having that built into the hardware so you can do it on any game is a new concept, I think.
Jesus saves! Everyone else, roll for damage.<BR><BR>Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there's not an invisible monster about to eat your face off.

Offline vudu

  • You'd probably all be better off if I really were dead.
  • NWR Junior Ranger
  • Score: -19
    • View Profile
RE:A Gamers' Manifesto
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2005, 09:27:36 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
The crucial part is that the save is automatically deleted after loading so you can't abuse it.  The deleting part is pretty unique.  Aside from Fire Emblem nothing really does anything like that.  Fire Emblem's method is very game specific.
 I'm sorry, but you're wrong.  Fire Emblem doesn't have a quick save that automatically deletes when you reload the game up.  Fire Emblem automatically saves the game after every turn.  But you always have the option of returning to the beginning of the battle.

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance has the type of quick save option you're discussing.  You can save anytime you want to, but the save deletes itself when you start playing again.  At least that's how I remember it.
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!