Author Topic: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)  (Read 1163750 times)

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Offline UncleBob

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4000 on: April 25, 2019, 10:21:29 AM »
Who thought Thanos was empathetic?

He was a crazy villain who needs to be stopped.  That simple.

Is it hand waving to say the crazy guy's plan is crazy?

Like, if they introduce Reed Richards and he comes up with this really high level, detailed plan, would it be hand waving to say "smart guy's plan is smart"?
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Offline ejamer

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4001 on: April 25, 2019, 10:58:31 AM »
I just feel like it's a missed opportunity to have Thanos - in some sense the ultimate villain, who has a plot fated to succeed - and then choosing to gloss over the many weak points, to avoid making him a strong character, all in favor of hollow action scenes that mostly don't do justice to the characters involved.

MCU doesn't really give value to their one-and-done villains, always seeming to move to the next film without concern. But this was the one - the epic, two-part, six+ hour blockbuster that had been hinted at repeatedly for a decade. This was the villain who would succeed in reshaping the world according to his vision. Not giving us any meaningful characterization is (in my opinion) a huge missed opportunity and leaves the film in a much worse state than it otherwise would have been.

But hey, I know for many fans that the movies can do no wrong. And for many fans, the Avengers is all about crazy fan service with as many heroes as possible making cameos and sharing the screen - everything else comes secondary. That's what the film offers, and in that respect I think it succeeds. I just hoped for something more...
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4002 on: April 25, 2019, 11:15:22 AM »
I've yet to meet one of these fans who believe the franchise can do no wrong.  Do they even lile Dark World?
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Offline ejamer

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4003 on: April 25, 2019, 11:18:27 AM »
I don't know if I watched that one... (obviously, I'm a very casual fan at best).

But one thing I wanted to mention: Infinity War was only 2 hours 40 minutes!  I could have sworn it was over 3 hours. It felt like it was over 3 hours.  I guess that Endgame is right at the 3 hour mark... so I kind of assumed that both were at least that long.

So yeah, maybe I'm asking them to do too much with the plot from Infinity War. Clearly they cover a lot of ground and have a lot of characters to manage. Maybe I'm just being too harsh. It's not like the movie bombed or anything, and people are clearly *thrilled* for Endgame - so maybe ignoring my opinion here is best.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4004 on: April 25, 2019, 11:34:26 AM »
Who thought Thanos was empathetic?
The directors, Anthony and Joe Russo. Josh Brolin. Possibly Kevin Feige.
Quote
Is it hand waving to say the crazy guy's plan is crazy?
Yes, because that’s reductive. It’s hand waving to flippantly use the word “crazy” as a catch-all explanation. Thanos’ plan isn’t bad because he’s the “Mad” Titan. His plan is bad because it’s stupid and attempting to pass it off as “crazy” is a fundamental misunderstanding of actual mental illness. Marvel seemingly deemed Thanos courting the embodiment of Death as too comic book-y and couldn’t come up with a better alternative. It tried to make Thanos empathetic by attempting to make his cause sound noble even from Thanos’ perspective and framing abuse as love.

Offline UncleBob

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4005 on: April 25, 2019, 12:10:43 PM »
"Crazy" isn't a mental illness.  It's an overly general term that encompasses an insanely (heh) large amount of ideas, concepts, and states of mind.

And I don't thinkmit's "hand waving" to say someone who wants to wipe out half of all life everywhere is crazy.

I don't need to know their motivations.  They crazy.

Imagine if Hitler wanted to explain and justify the holocaust.  Whatever reasons he puts forth, he's crazy and I don't need to know more to know he's the bad guy and needs to be stopped.
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Offline Arbok

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4006 on: April 25, 2019, 12:22:22 PM »
I think people are overlooking the emotional aspect to Thanos, being that he lost his home world. In that instance he had a plan, a fairly crazy plan to kill half the population... but one that oddly would have saved lives in that instance versus the alternative. As a result, people he would have been personally familiar with died as he saw his plan overlooked... I can only imagine what it would be like living through a world that is starving and the apocalypse-like scenario that transpired that caused that world to die.

That experience made Thanos obsessive and misguided, to the point he sees himself the savior by transplanting his idea on a universe scale. Similarly, he has become so obsessed he is able to shut out serious critiques to his plan, likely bore from feeling it was people opposed to his original plan on Titan that were eventually the problem that led to the planet dying.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4007 on: April 25, 2019, 01:40:52 PM »
"Crazy" isn't a mental illness.  It's an overly general term that encompasses an insanely (heh) large amount of ideas, concepts, and states of mind.
In this instance, “crazy” is directly invoking the subject’s mental well-being or lack thereof since we’re discussing a character often referred to as “The Mad Titan.” Personally, “crazy” is a term I try not to use because it can be viewed as insensitive to people with mental health issues. I digress. I’m also not interested in arguing semantics. I stand by my original point. Regardless of how “crazy” was being used to describe Thanos, his plan is bad because it’s mathematically unsound, half-baked, overly simplistic etc. etc.
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I don't need to know their motivations.  They crazy.
Thanos is an effective villain because Josh Brolin is good at his job and also because his actions threaten the heroes in a way they never encountered before. He keeps beating them which creates more conflict and continually ups the ante. So sure, he needs to be stopped because he’s evil and acting directly against the efforts of over a decade’s worth of clearly defined heroes. Thanos is also the protagonist of Infinity War because his actions propel the story forward. So yeah, I need to know his motivations because the filmmakers decided this is Thanos’ journey. The protagonist need not be noble or empathetic. Marvel decided to go that route, and I didn’t think it quite got there. Audiences don’t have to agree with Thanos’ goal, but they should understand how he gets there and why he wants to accomplish said goal, and it’s the writer’s responsibility to make that clear.

Walter White is the protagonist of Breaking Bad, and a villain in his world. He has clearly stated motivations (“I do it for my family.”) even if he finally admits the truth in the last episode (“I did it for me.”). Walter was empathetic in the beginning because dude got cancer and worried about leaving his family with nothing as the only working member of his family. As the series went on, I didn’t agree with his methods (e.g. poisoning kids, murdering a bunch of people, almost everything he did to Jesse etc.), but I understand; and I should. Otherwise, why would I follow this protagonist for five seasons? If Walter White was all, “I need to cook meth because it’ll cure my cancer,” I would’ve stopped watching because that doesn’t make sense (unless the show was rebranded into a comedy in which case, I may have stuck around for a bit just to see where that goes).

Offline UncleBob

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4008 on: April 25, 2019, 01:57:05 PM »
> his plan is bad because it’s mathematically unsound, half-baked, overly simplistic etc. etc.

Like the plan a crazy person would come up with?

>Breaking Bad,

I don't watch something like Avengers for the same reason I watch something like Breaking Bad.  It's like... the first Human Centipede movie.  It's a load of fun - but if you're goin to watch it to analyse the crazy doctor's plans, well... you aren't going to enjoy it.
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4009 on: April 25, 2019, 02:39:56 PM »
I think people are overlooking the emotional aspect to Thanos, being that he lost his home world. In that instance he had a plan, a fairly crazy plan to kill half the population... but one that oddly would have saved lives in that instance versus the alternative. As a result, people he would have been personally familiar with died as he saw his plan overlooked... I can only imagine what it would be like living through a world that is starving and the apocalypse-like scenario that transpired that caused that world to die.

That experience made Thanos obsessive and misguided, to the point he sees himself the savior by transplanting his idea on a universe scale. Similarly, he has become so obsessed he is able to shut out serious critiques to his plan, likely bore from feeling it was people opposed to his original plan on Titan that were eventually the problem that led to the planet dying.

We got none of that. What we got was Thanos rambling and a screen shot from a completely untrustworthy narrator.

It was clearly an FTL capable civilization that should have been or near post scarcity. Whatever killed the planet couldn't have been artificial other than war and even then they would have off world colonies. Reduction in food output can take decades if you are still growing it naturally, more than enough time to come up with solutions. It's not like this was set anywhere near the heat death of the universe. Even then you have devices that can reverse entropy rendering that moot.

The BIG reason why we have to examine his "Plan" is because we don't buy his character or what little there is. His plan comes up nothing. If neither of those work what is left about him? Nothing but a punchman target.

There are some half bakes hand waves about how killing half somehow improves things but to avoid endorsing genocide they don't show anything. If there was some justification, something to show us his plan "Worked" or improved life one could see him as a monster instead of the biggest purple dumbass of the universe. It really doesn't help that the creators tried to play both sides by trying to have us "Feel for him" which rang completely hollow just like his character.

Killing people for Death would have worked perfectly fine if a little saucy given we have stories like Helena of Troy.

^^^

Walter White is the go to example of how to write a compelling protagonist villain that you can understand and relate even after he crosses your personal moral event horizon, truly becomes a villain, a villain with a believable path he took to get there. His journey isn't complete though as now we look to his comeuppance his twists and turns to avoid this. Yet he still does good here and there to stop his character from collapsing into a villain black hole which would take the show with it as you fully disconnect. There is some small hope that he will stop himself.

His intelligence and education gives him the means. His impending death gives him nothing to lose and motivation. He gains clear material benefits for himself and family. His plans are believable. His motivations are clear at every point. His choices aren't crazy, they are amoral, horrifying, logic taken to the extreme, done for attainable needs and wants.

Calling him crazy is outright wrong let alone reducing him to this.

By defending/accepting Thanos as a "Mad" titan only confirms how poorly written he is. Just because it's a punchman movie doesn't mean you lower your standards and excuse whatever is dumped in front of you. You should demand better, anything less is a disservice to yourself and entertainment as a whole.
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4010 on: April 25, 2019, 02:55:40 PM »
>By defending/accepting Thanos as a "Mad" titan only confirms

...the exact description Marvel has used for him for years.

If only Marvel used all 58+ hours of movis to focus only on developing Thanos instead of the dozens of other charaters, we could have had a fleshed out villain like what we got in 62 hours of Breaking Bad.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 03:00:19 PM by UncleBob »
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4011 on: April 25, 2019, 03:01:02 PM »
Marvel failed to write a believable character. It's that simple. He is absolutely the weakest part of the movie, a movie where he is suppose to be the foundation of.
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4012 on: April 25, 2019, 03:02:30 PM »
If only Marvel used all 58+ hours of movis to focus only on developing Thanos instead of the dozens of other charaters, we could have had a fleshed out villain like what we got in 62 hours of Breaking Bad.

You're being disingenuous making false equivalences.
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4013 on: April 25, 2019, 03:33:20 PM »
lol.  I'm making false equivalents by comparing 62 hours worth of television that was primarily focused on building a single character to Marvel's 58 hours of movies that has been designing an entire universe of characters?

I apologize for ever bringing up Breaking Bad to begin with.  Sorry to have offended you by doing so.

(Fun fact, earlier, I got lectured because I wasn't emotionally inveted in entertainment providers being true to years of established character work.   Here, I am being lectured for pretty much the exact opposite, calling Thanos the Mad Titan.. but I'm sure that's just another false equivalent)
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4014 on: April 25, 2019, 03:51:07 PM »
The key take away from Breaking bad example is not the absolute time we spent with the character. That is the disingenuous and false equivalence part.

Walter is an example of what makes a compelling villain. Whether your character is a hero or villain the basic elements are the same and believability is key. You didn't need 50 hours to make Tony Stark as a believable character. Loki didn't need 50 hours to be a believable villain.

If you have a believable character want them to succeed or fail. You buy into the show, you're invested. Marvel failed to do this with Thanos.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4015 on: April 25, 2019, 03:56:29 PM »
> his plan is bad because it’s mathematically unsound, half-baked, overly simplistic etc. etc.

Like the plan a crazy person would come up with?
No, like the plan a stupid person or a child would come up with.

In the comics, Thanos killing half of all living beings served his motivation and end goal (impress Death, “senpai, please notice me.”). In the MCU, Marvel changed Thanos’ motivation and end goal yet kept the whole kill-half-of-all-living-beings thing except this doesn’t really accomplish his end goal of checking life in a universe of finite resources. The weird thing is it almost does for his purposes; he just needs to kill more people. Is this not still “crazy”? You’re defending inadequate writing for what would amount to some rewritten lines of dialog. “With a snap of his fingers, Thanos intends to reset all worlds and wipe out 99% of all sentient life.”

This is a problem Marvel created when it made these changes and decided Thanos’ would be Infinity Wars’ protagonist. If it wants to completely change Thanos’ motivation, that still has to work narratively, and it can’t just be filed under “crazy” because he was “crazy” in the comics, and his motivation and end goal for killing trillions made sense there (or as much sense as impressing Death can be).
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 04:31:39 PM by Adrock »

Offline Arbok

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4016 on: April 25, 2019, 04:37:38 PM »
We got none of that. What we got was Thanos rambling and a screen shot from a completely untrustworthy narrator.

If we are saying Thanos was untrustworthy when he was talking about Titan, then we don't have much to go by in terms of character. In my mind, much of his motivation comes from that scene. I personally enjoy the character, and thought it was well handled.

From his little speech I was able to gather that his planet was overpopulated, that he offered an, again, crazy solution that actually probably would have helped... and ultimately the harsher reality came to pass. He probably feels vindicated based on Titan, but has lost his ability to approach this rationally. The reason being his experience dealing with critics when he actually had a plan that was more based on the problem at hand and likely dealing with the traumatic, emotional experience of seeing people he knew pass away under probably horrible circumstances (if the problem was lack of resources, I imagine a lot of infighting). I felt this trauma is often overlooked, although expressed in a single line:

Thanos: They called me a madman. And what I predicted came to pass.

Doctor Strange: [sarcastically] Congratulations. You're a prophet.

Thanos: I'm a survivor.
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4017 on: April 25, 2019, 04:46:06 PM »
Iron Man's first movie primarily focused on developing his character for about two hours.  Any side character work was generally focused on developing Iron Man/Tony Stark.  Even the primary villian of the movie's origins are a direct result of tying to develop a character we like over the course of two hours.  Contrast that with Iron Monger/Obadiah Stane.  He had virtually no devlopment, his motivations were flat, and even Pepper called him insane.  Thanos is the Iron Monger of Avengers Infinity War.

Loki.  That's who you want to use as an example of good character development?  His motives shift and chane based on what the movie calls for.  In Thor, he wants to rule Asgard or maybe be Thor's equal.  He can't decide.  The next time we see him, he's acting as Thanos' lackey (because that's what self-declared rightful kings do) because he wants to rule Earth (why not ask to rule Asgard instead?  You know, his goal in the first movie?)  His role in every movie is, basically "do crazy **** to surprise the audience and/or move the plot along".

All this compred to Thanos.  Thanos had probably less dedicated screen time than Terrance Howard in Iron Man one.  Combined with squeezing what, over two dozen other characters into the movie?

The only real way to have developed Thanos in any real capacity would have been to have had a dedicated Thanos movie.  Which is unnecessary because he's the mad titan and he needs to get his magical macguffins and the good guys need to stop him because the movie is called Avengers, not Thanos.

I'm just done with this.  You want deeply developed villians in your summber popcorn blockbusters.  Good luck and I hope you get what you want in the future.  Maybe you should start an online petition.
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Offline BranDonk Kong

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4018 on: April 25, 2019, 05:57:22 PM »
In the theater right now...3 min to go.
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Offline BranDonk Kong

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4019 on: April 25, 2019, 09:57:38 PM »
Wow.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4020 on: April 26, 2019, 01:51:59 AM »
I await the post Endgame analysis of Thanos' Mad plan.


Google also has an easter egg for the MCU

google search Thanos, then click the gauntlet. leave the sound on :D
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 02:10:42 AM by BlackNMild2k1 »

Offline oohhboy

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4021 on: April 26, 2019, 03:02:42 AM »
I guess throwing your hands up and accepting Marvel somehow can't write villains is the easy option because hey what are standards?

You don't need a dedicated movie to create a well constructed character. Besides, wasn't Thanos suppose to be our protagonist? If he is isn't IW his movie?

Hans Gruber, one of the greatest villains didn't need a movie to develop him before he attacked Nakatomi Plaza. He is just as well developed as John. Examples of excellent villain with low screen time? Vadar. Even less? The Emperor.

How many of the heroes don't have their own movie? Nick Fury doesn't have one yet from his first appearance he steals the show. Cable in DP2 gets set up in 1 minute, we now know who he is, what motivates him, his methods and tools.

We got none of that. What we got was Thanos rambling and a screen shot from a completely untrustworthy narrator.

If we are saying Thanos was untrustworthy when he was talking about Titan, then we don't have much to go by in terms of character. In my mind, much of his motivation comes from that scene. I personally enjoy the character, and thought it was well handled.

From his little speech I was able to gather that his planet was overpopulated, that he offered an, again, crazy solution that actually probably would have helped... and ultimately the harsher reality came to pass. He probably feels vindicated based on Titan, but has lost his ability to approach this rationally. The reason being his experience dealing with critics when he actually had a plan that was more based on the problem at hand and likely dealing with the traumatic, emotional experience of seeing people he knew pass away under probably horrible circumstances (if the problem was lack of resources, I imagine a lot of infighting). I felt this trauma is often overlooked, although expressed in a single line:

Thanos: They called me a madman. And what I predicted came to pass.

Doctor Strange: [sarcastically] Congratulations. You're a prophet.

Thanos: I'm a survivor.

How much information were we actually given? His bedrock event and we got nothing with a run time of nearly 3 hours.

You had to fill in pretty much everything about Thanos the writer didn't do and even that is very incomplete with a lot of hand waving. It's why Thanos is so empty. The exchange gets overlooked because we have no point of reference, predicted what? How did you survive? Why did you fail? What were the solutions at the time?, it's just banter otherwise.
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Offline BranDonk Kong

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4022 on: April 26, 2019, 06:50:39 AM »
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Offline Adrock

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4023 on: April 26, 2019, 09:32:12 AM »
I await the post Endgame analysis of Thanos' Mad (not that i read most of the current analysis, but curious to see if anything changes. LOL) plan.
UncleBob left the chat, however I’m currently here:

1. I loved Infinity War but had a few issues with the writing. Thanos’ plan is bad because it doesn’t accomplish his goal. It isn’t asking a lot that any story, summer blockbuster or otherwise, adhere to the most basic for character building.
2. I am willing to wait until Saturday to see if my opinion changes post-Endgame. Still, I’m skeptical of a sequel being used to correct the failures of its predecessor.

Unrelated: Does Endgame have a mid-credits and/or post-credits scene or is it safe to **** off during the credits? I read that there wasn’t a mid-credits and/or post-credits scene but wasn’t sure if someone was just messing with people.

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)
« Reply #4024 on: April 26, 2019, 10:55:36 AM »
No post scene of any kind.
The first set of credits are a tribute to characters over the last decade, but no additional scenes.