Author Topic: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...  (Read 18326 times)

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Offline Khushrenada

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Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« on: April 28, 2020, 02:29:37 PM »
Thought about resurrecting the old "Sony Getting Hit Hard Lately" thread but they're only partially involved. Seems to me that it would be more prudent to start a different thread highlighting some of the news from the competition of non-Nintendo developers. As much as Nintendo fans will complain about the products from Nintendo such as not having all the Pokemon in Sword and Shield or making Metroid Prime: Federation Force, there's a lot more crap happening on the other side of the fence. Lootboxes, unfinished products, Cooking Mama: Cookstar and more have contributed to a lot of developers looking pretty cruddy these days.

The latest disaster comes from Naughty Dog. Over the weekend, someone working on The Last of Us 2 decided to leak a lot of info and the game and spoil the major story beats. This has caused Naughty Dog to announce that they will be releasing the game very soon now in June. Meanwhile, the leak seems to have caused a pretty negative reaction from those who've read the details and the hype for the game seems to be deflating fast. As for why the leak was done, I haven't seen anything confirming it but it seems to be from a disgruntled employee (is there ever any other kind in a situation like this) who is either upset at Naughty Dog with-holding or taking their time in paying their staff, upset at the crunch-time of development, upset at the direction of the game and story and cancel-culture in Naughty Dog or all of the above.

The crunch time on Last of Us 2 development has already been reported on earlier and the article ended with this tidbit:

Quote
Yet there are also those developers, some of whom still work at Naughty Dog today, who say that there’s a part of them that actually wishes this game would fail. A critical flop might help show Naughty Dog that this isn’t the best way to make games, that this level of sacrifice isn’t necessary, that maybe the project isn’t worth losing all of these people. That perhaps, no matter how many Game of the Year nominations they win or how high their Metacritic scores climb, all the individual hairs on Joel’s eyebrows or the grains of sand in a burlap sack just aren’t worth the cost.

Welp, there's a good chance they may get their wish. However, with the way this has been leaked, I'm not sure the takeaway will be less crunch time so who knows how the fallout of this will play out. Jason Schreier, who wrote the Naughty Dog crunch story, posted this on Twitter yesterday: "Just catching up on this Naughty Dog story and man, no matter how angry you are about your workplace conditions or your pay or whatever else, leaking your whole game just hurts all the other people who were in the trenches with you. So many better ways to channel that rage". True enough.

What a mess.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2020, 03:48:17 PM »
I cancelled my $80 Collector's Edition preorder after the leaks hit. Took one look at what Naughty Dog did with that story, and I wanted no part of it.

I'll be curious to see who Sony fires as a result of all this. Naughty Dog's management being incompetent is pretty open knowledge at this point.

As for Schreier, he made a CAREER out of being the "press sneak ****" who reported leaks from developers, so his outrage here is more than a little suspect.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 04:03:49 PM by broodwars »
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Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2020, 05:39:34 PM »
On a different note, there is the oddity about today's Indivisible release with the publisher putting out an older version of the game missing features such as co-op and New Game+. There was no promotion of the launch and people who backed it on Kickstarter are now trying to get their codes to download the game since they weren't readied for this sudden release. Faint echoes of Cooking Mama: Cookstar in this but different situations between the two.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2020, 05:55:41 PM »
On a different note, there is the oddity about today's Indivisible release with the publisher putting out an older version of the game missing features such as co-op and New Game+. There was no promotion of the launch and people who backed it on Kickstarter are now trying to get their codes to download the game since they weren't readied for this sudden release. Faint echoes of Cooking Mama: Cookstar in this but different situations between the two.

Suffice it to say that Indivisible wasn't the best-executed crowd-funded game in general. I played the PS4 version back when it came out last October, and it was missing several playable characters that were funded, modeled, & animated. The story also feels like it was thrown together at the last minute & held together by 2nd-hand scotch tape. I don't know if the missing characters were ever added back in like they were supposed to, but I doubt it since Shovel Knight was one of the characters and I would have seen something if he'd been put in. They only recently put out the Co-Op & New Game+ patch, 6 months after everyone stopped caring about Indivisible.

It's like Playtonic putting out that N64 Model DLC for Yooka-Laylee 3 years & 1 sequel after everyone played it: "cool, but who cares at this point?"

I can recommend Indivisible, as kind of broken & utterly unfinished as it is, since the combat is genuinely entertaining...but that launch sale price should be the regular price.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 05:57:13 PM by broodwars »
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Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2020, 05:59:24 PM »
It's like Playtonic putting out that N64 Model DLC for Yooka-Laylee 3 years & 1 sequel after everyone played it: "cool, but who cares at this point?"

Did Playtonic actually do that or are you just trying to illustrate the Indivisible news in a different way to explain it?
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2020, 06:11:19 PM »
It's like Playtonic putting out that N64 Model DLC for Yooka-Laylee 3 years & 1 sequel after everyone played it: "cool, but who cares at this point?"

Did Playtonic actually do that or are you just trying to illustrate the Indivisible news in a different way to explain it?

No, they really did put out that DLC in a patch a month or two ago.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/playtonic/yooka-laylee-a-3d-platformer-rare-vival/posts/2807593
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2020, 06:19:36 PM »
Point taken though I still care about Indivisble. Valkyrie Profile gameplay with Skullgirls art. It’s like this game was made out of my dreams. I’m a little disappointed in the news since I crowdfunded it for $60, and I haven’t received an email regarding when I’ll get the game. As stated in the Talkback thread, I may just get the PS4 version. It was on sale not too long ago so I expect it to go on sale again before the end of the year.

Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2020, 06:41:51 PM »
It's like Playtonic putting out that N64 Model DLC for Yooka-Laylee 3 years & 1 sequel after everyone played it: "cool, but who cares at this point?"

Did Playtonic actually do that or are you just trying to illustrate the Indivisible news in a different way to explain it?

No, they really did put out that DLC in a patch a month or two ago.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/playtonic/yooka-laylee-a-3d-platformer-rare-vival/posts/2807593

Hahaha! Oh wow! I never heard that. I actually just started playing Yooka-Laylee. I had started it a couple months ago and but wanted to finish some other stuff and have just gotten back into the past two days. When I first played it, I did unlock the 64 tonic and tried it for a few seconds. I would say it gave me slight bemusement of seeing what this game could have looked like in the past but then I turned it off and went back to playing it in its HD glory. I just assumed it was always a part of the game. Definitely an irrelevant addition to be making years later. Nothing I would return to the game for to play through with. Weird. At least it shows Playtonic still cares about the product they've put out, I suppose.
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Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2020, 11:08:17 PM »
I cancelled my $80 Collector's Edition preorder after the leaks hit. Took one look at what Naughty Dog did with that story, and I wanted no part of it.

I'll be curious to see who Sony fires as a result of all this. Naughty Dog's management being incompetent is pretty open knowledge at this point.

As for Schreier, he made a CAREER out of being the "press sneak ****" who reported leaks from developers, so his outrage here is more than a little suspect.

What about the story made you want to cancel your preorder?
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2020, 11:19:55 PM »
I cancelled my $80 Collector's Edition preorder after the leaks hit. Took one look at what Naughty Dog did with that story, and I wanted no part of it.

I'll be curious to see who Sony fires as a result of all this. Naughty Dog's management being incompetent is pretty open knowledge at this point.

As for Schreier, he made a CAREER out of being the "press sneak ****" who reported leaks from developers, so his outrage here is more than a little suspect.

What about the story made you want to cancel your preorder?

Don't really want to go into it, but suffice it to say I didn't think anyone would be stupid enough to try to do Metal Gear Solid 2 all over again.
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Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2020, 02:11:26 AM »
I cancelled my $80 Collector's Edition preorder after the leaks hit. Took one look at what Naughty Dog did with that story, and I wanted no part of it.

I'll be curious to see who Sony fires as a result of all this. Naughty Dog's management being incompetent is pretty open knowledge at this point.

As for Schreier, he made a CAREER out of being the "press sneak ****" who reported leaks from developers, so his outrage here is more than a little suspect.

What about the story made you want to cancel your preorder?

Don't really want to go into it, but suffice it to say I didn't think anyone would be stupid enough to try to do Metal Gear Solid 2 all over again.

So it is just the switching part and what happens in the story that caused the switch?
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2020, 07:28:45 AM »
I cancelled my $80 Collector's Edition preorder after the leaks hit. Took one look at what Naughty Dog did with that story, and I wanted no part of it.

I'll be curious to see who Sony fires as a result of all this. Naughty Dog's management being incompetent is pretty open knowledge at this point.

As for Schreier, he made a CAREER out of being the "press sneak ****" who reported leaks from developers, so his outrage here is more than a little suspect.

What about the story made you want to cancel your preorder?

Don't really want to go into it, but suffice it to say I didn't think anyone would be stupid enough to try to do Metal Gear Solid 2 all over again.

So it is just the switching part and what happens in the story that caused the switch?

That, plus the theme of the game is rather trite for this setting. Suffice it to say that I'm getting a real "Mass Effect 3" vibe from this game now, and I'd rather not go through that again. Combine that with the general mismanagement issues reported by Jason Schreier over there at Naughty Dog, and I think it's probably time for Sony to fire Neil Druckmann and reorganize management in general. It would be nice if they could get Amy Hennig back, considering Druckmann allegedly forced her out.
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Offline Luigi Dude

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2020, 03:59:39 PM »
So I looked up the spoilers to see what all the fuss was about.

Wow, I'm surprised Sony even allowed that in the first place.  Broodwars comparing it to Metal Gear Solid 2 and Mass Effect 3 is too nice if you ask me.  This game legit wants the players to outright hate themselves.  The first game took place in a miserable world but there was still a heart to it that engaged the player.  This game looks to be pure misery porn for those that enjoy being depressed. 

I guess you got to hand it to the director.

https://www.gamesradar.com/we-dont-use-the-word-fun-says-the-last-of-us-2-director-neil-druckmann/

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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2020, 04:47:38 PM »
I've never played Last of Us and am not really that interested so I took a look at the spoilers at a high level.  That's like the sort of **** that damages the previous game in retrospect.  Ha!  That's terrible!  MGS 2 is a good comparison but I also get Alien 3 (movie, not game) vibes as well.

Offline broodwars

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2020, 04:51:42 PM »
So I looked up the spoilers to see what all the fuss was about.

Wow, I'm surprised Sony even allowed that in the first place.  Broodwars comparing it to Metal Gear Solid 2 and Mass Effect 3 is too nice if you ask me.  This game legit wants the players to outright hate themselves.  The first game took place in a miserable world but there was still a heart to it that engaged the player.  This game looks to be pure misery porn for those that enjoy being depressed. 

I guess you got to hand it to the director.

https://www.gamesradar.com/we-dont-use-the-word-fun-says-the-last-of-us-2-director-neil-druckmann/

When he said he didn't want players to have fun, he truly meant it.

I didn't want to outright spoil the plot or cover my post in spoiler tags, so I was trying to be a bit vague.

But yeah, this yet another product where some pretentious asshole has decided he wants to take a beloved property and focus on "subversion" rather than giving the audience what they want or what they don't know they want. It's a vanity project that's probably sent actual Naughty Dog devs to the hospital. And the people making the game KNOW it's bad. Troy Baker gave an interview a month or so ago where he "hoped fans had an open mind", a phrase that's so often associated with quality.  :rolleyes:

And yes, Alien 3 is a good example, too.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2020, 04:56:41 PM by broodwars »
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Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2020, 05:32:32 PM »
I cancelled my $80 Collector's Edition preorder after the leaks hit. Took one look at what Naughty Dog did with that story, and I wanted no part of it.

I'll be curious to see who Sony fires as a result of all this. Naughty Dog's management being incompetent is pretty open knowledge at this point.

You are not alone in that feeling. I'm not sure I've seen a positive comment about the spoilers yet. On my side, I've got no personal investment in this. I've never played the first game, had no intention to ever play it and never had any interest in the sequel. My interest is merely from the scandal of it all with someone willing to put themselves in hot water by releasing it and how much the fans seem to be rejecting the game from the leaks.

I do think it also shows some of the big issues in the business of Gaming. I think about how many years in a row after an E3, people would often comment on how so many games look the same. It's still an issue that pops up today with post-apocalyptic worlds or generic fantasy rpg number nine. For a long time, it was always about first-person shooters and how they all seemed to blend together. That problem still exists but it doesn't seem as pronounced as it used to be perhaps because of Fortnite and Overwatch changing up some of that aesthetic. In any case, all these similar products have often caused many gamers to complain about developers not taking risks or trying new things. Having taken some time to understand just what it is that people are upset about from the leaks, a part of me appreciates that a developer was willing to take some risks with a property and story particularly a costly big-budget "AAA" type game. That said, I totally get why people are put off by the plot being revealed. From my understanding and to put it in movie terms, it feels like this is an Aliens to Alien 3 situation. Has there ever been a case where that strategy has worked? EDIT: Dang it! I thought I was going to be the first to use the Alien 3 comparison but I took too long typing this all. Also thought referencing Alien 3 might be seen as a spoiler for people as I think it would be easy to correlate what that could mean as a reference. Taking a risk and having it fail, which seems to be where this outcome may be leading, could result in other companies using it as proof to keep playing it safe and churning out the same content. But that's why it is called a risk.

Going back to the budget part of it, that is another issue that this whole thing highlights. As Sony and Microsoft keep trying to push more and more powerful consoles from the PS3/360 to PS4/XB1 to PS5/SEX, so many third parties are killing themselves in trying to keep up in this graphics arm race. We haven’t posted much in the Games Industry Death Watch thread but so many developers were shuttered in the past decade from trying to put out a big HD game that flopped in sales and thus never recouped the cost of development. These long development times have also resulted in a lot of developers slowing down the output in the number of games they’ve released in this decade compared to the past decade. It has resulted in companies basically putting all their eggs in one basket with no back-up plan (aside from porting stuff from their back catalogue in between and hoping to create a bit more cashflow from that).

I think about film studios. There have been times that a movie went way over budget and had a huge troubled development. Sometimes, the studio was able to survive the release of the movie because box office sales were high enough and sometimes studios shuttered when they flopped. However, one advantage that movie studios have or had to survive even when films flopped that were expensive but not outrageously so like a Waterworld or Heaven’s Gate is that they also had other films to release during the year that could be profitable and make up for a loss from a different film. Usually a film studio shutting down was from putting out multiple stinkers in a row so that the losses piled up faster with nothing to offset them. If a game developer has multiple games releasing in the year then it may be that they can overcome some losses if they want to take a risk on some titles but when they put years and years into one title and it has to sell enough to cover costs of development and provide income for the next development cycle then I don’t see how taking any risks can be justified when it comes to the reception of the product.

From 2007 – 2020, we’ve seen Wii dominate as market leader then PS4 and now Switch has taken off. Two of those consoles were weaker in graphics than their competition. (The Nintendo ones obviously.) Graphics are nice but they clearly aren’t the deciding factor for a lot of people. With a larger userbase like Wii and Switch is getting, developers have the potential to sell a large amount of product and they can do so without trying to be on the cutting edge of graphical prowess. With how the industry has gone in the past 15 years, Iwata’s decision that Nintendo was not going to try and pursue a graphics arm race with the competition is looking more and more like one of the best business decisions the company ever made. By cutting down on development time from trying to push a new standard gaming graphics, developers could start lowering the costs sunk into games which could allow them to take more risks and maybe even churn out a few other crowd pleasers in the same generation to help mitigate some risk.
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2020, 05:58:26 PM »
Videogames were a lot better before big corporations discovered they were a thing.  In the past you had classic games being made by a handful of guys, sometimes literally in a basement if they were just starting out.

But that was going to happen eventually because videogames are too much damn fun to remain a niche hobby so they were going to eventually generate revenue that would interest the corporate world.  And improving the hardware was the most obvious way to justify a new console or to help new PC or arcade games stand out so eventually it was going to get to the point that the amount of work involved would require large movie-sized teams and large budgets.  It's annoying that we're there now but we were going to end up here no matter what.  I feel Iwata was just pushing back on the inevitable, stretching out as much time as possible for Nintendo before the market would demand that they make big budget games as well.

Offline nickmitch

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2020, 08:17:30 PM »
So, what's the fix for "crunch culture"?  I've seen people want to see an end to that and better treatment for developers, but what's really the fix?  You can't work on a game forever, that doesn't work because you need some revenue to keep things going eventually.  Publishers could raise the price on games, a suggestion I've seen, which would make sense because it reduces a lot of risk if the demand for the game evens out.  The market already doesn't like the DLC model and the "episodic content" model also didn't seem to pan out, so the thing that makes the most sense is to raise game prices.  Games could also try to cut costs by reducing the scope of big titles.  Does a "AAA" game need so many hours of 4K content?
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2020, 08:22:13 PM »
The Last of Us Part IIâ€s plot twists may have worked out better if people played it instead of read some spoilers. Thematically, I understand what Naughty Dog was going for even if I don’t necessarily agree. Admittedly, I’m not that invested in the IP so I’m not upset either way nor do I particularly care. I know what happens in the original and it didn’t really seem like a game that needed or even lent itself to a follow up (my understanding is Joel saves Ellie and and potentially ends any chance at finding a cure to the infection). With that ending in mind, I didn’t get the impression Naughty Dog was merely trying to subvert expectations. A better move would have been to just not make a sequel. That wasn’t going to happen because Sony likes money so zagging when everyone expects you to zig isn’t the worst idea. You just have to zag in a way that resonates with people, and maybe not get leaked all over the internet.
So, what's the fix for "crunch culture"?
Developers have to form unions and/or people have to stop buying games from developers forced into crunch. Send a message to publishers that crunch is unacceptable. That’s a lot of organizing which makes it unlikely so yeah, the answer is to form unions.

Offline broodwars

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2020, 08:30:34 PM »
So, what's the fix for "crunch culture"?  I've seen people want to see an end to that and better treatment for developers, but what's really the fix?  You can't work on a game forever, that doesn't work because you need some revenue to keep things going eventually.  Publishers could raise the price on games, a suggestion I've seen, which would make sense because it reduces a lot of risk if the demand for the game evens out.  The market already doesn't like the DLC model and the "episodic content" model also didn't seem to pan out, so the thing that makes the most sense is to raise game prices.  Games could also try to cut costs by reducing the scope of big titles.  Does a "AAA" game need so many hours of 4K content?

I've worked in the games industry in a minor, QA, capacity, so I'm not about to say it's realistic that we can ever really get rid of crunch. However, the amount of crunch that has to be done can be managed by having competent management with a clear development plan and realistic goals that take into account that the train's going to derail at some point. If your plan bakes in time to get the train back onto the tracks, you can minimize crunch.

The problem is that the inmates run the asylum over at Naughty Dog, so the only solution I can think of is for Sony to fire the management and restructure the company. There's just too much of a perfectionist, direction-less culture there right now, and I suspect that they aren't as profitable as Sony wants people to believe they are. Sony had to bail out both Uncharted 4 & The Last of Us 2 with significant delays when they languished in development hell for years, and even despite that the crunch was still horrendous.
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Offline Luigi Dude

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2020, 10:43:07 PM »
I feel Iwata was just pushing back on the inevitable, stretching out as much time as possible for Nintendo before the market would demand that they make big budget games as well.

I'd say the Switch shows Nintendo is still fine doing there own thing.  Nintendo software sales are higher then ever right now even though their own games aren't trying to be AAA movies like the top sellers on other systems.  I mean the closest Nintendo has in terms of production value would be Breath of the Wild, but even then, the story and voice acting is much smaller then what other open-world games are offering.  But despite that, the gameplay is selling the game in a way no other Zelda has sold before.

So Nintendo shows there is a successful middle ground between dirt-cheap smartphone games and mega-expensive AAA games.
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2020, 09:53:58 AM »
I read the spoilers. This sounds like trash.

Offline broodwars

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2020, 10:18:41 AM »
So, apparently the reason why The Last of Us 2 was leaked has come out on reddit: apparently, Naughty Dog had contractual bonuses for the game that would be released 6 months after launch. However, the game kept getting delayed at the last minute & then Covid-19 broke out, resulting in furloughs. Allegedly, the leaker went to management requesting an advance on their bonus to help them support themselves during the Covid-19 furlough. Management not only denied this request, but threatened them with termination.

The punch line in all this is that, again allegedly, the senior staff at Naughty Dog (including Neil Druckmann) had all previously requested and received advances in their bonuses. In order to force ND to release the game and open up the bonuses, the leaker released the game online.

As noted, this comes from reddit so take it with a grain of salt, but it lines up with what we know about ND's corporate culture. I've said it before, but Sony needs to fire the management over at Naughty Dog & rebuild the company.
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2020, 11:39:10 AM »
So, what's the fix for "crunch culture"?  I've seen people want to see an end to that and better treatment for developers, but what's really the fix?  You can't work on a game forever, that doesn't work because you need some revenue to keep things going eventually.  Publishers could raise the price on games, a suggestion I've seen, which would make sense because it reduces a lot of risk if the demand for the game evens out.  The market already doesn't like the DLC model and the "episodic content" model also didn't seem to pan out, so the thing that makes the most sense is to raise game prices.  Games could also try to cut costs by reducing the scope of big titles.  Does a "AAA" game need so many hours of 4K content?

I'm basing this on PC game development since console development historically was largely Japanese so we don't get as many behind-the-scenes in English about them.  Anyway, if you go back to game designed by small teams and they'll often talk about putting in 16 hour days and sleeping at the office and such to get the game done.  But this is a small team of people passionate about the project so you get the sense that putting in this much time is somewhat voluntary.  Like this is their baby and if they don't work on it it doesn't get done.

I wonder if some of that just remained as the companies grew.  So it starts as the founders putting in crazy hours.  Then it's the founders and a handful of employees that they've become friends with and then eventually it's a huge company with all sorts of employees that have no real creative input into the game that are to just do what they're told.  It goes from volunteering to asking your friends to help you out to mandating crunch time from employees that you don't even necessarily know.

I haven't done game development but I have made a few indie films and I've put in crunch time on those, simply because if I didn't it would drag it out for months or even years.  Now I haven't made other people do that but I also haven't had anyone to boss around either.

And of course if other teams are doing crunch time then you're that developer where games take twice as long to develop as everyone else.  It's the competition of it.  You can't take twice the time or have games with half the production values and expect people to buy your game over others.

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2020, 03:31:15 PM »
Some crunch time is probably inevitable, and not such a big deal when people are rewarded appropriately with time and money afterwards.

Continuous crunch time is a real problem though, and usually an indication that management has no clue what they are doing. Something on the project has to go significantly off-track, whether that's over-promising for content and delivery times or actual development issues that couldn't be easily foreseen.


That said, I feel like games being increasingly large and complex makes the whole development cycle more taxing. Teams are larger and more spread out, and the likelihood of unexpected problems cropping up during development are much higher also. Trying to accurately scope the time and resources that a large project will need is really difficult, and when mistakes happen it can affect a lot of people depending on how much pressure the company is under to live up to early commitments.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 03:32:58 PM by ejamer »
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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2020, 04:52:36 PM »
I read the leaks because I doubt I'll get around to playing these games and it just sounds super bizarre. Like an extra bad season of Walking Dead. But maybe I just never understood what the first game was about, as I thought it was a survival horror game where you played as a father protecting his daughter (or a girl he found and becomes a father figure to). All this relationship stuff just sounds like a bad CW teen-zombie show, but again, maybe I just never understood what the original product was.

As for developer crunch, it happens in other tech orgs, but you seem to find better variety there and even some options that just work with a better Work Life Balance. I have deadlines to meet for my apps, but it won't impact my company's revenue stream if I hit a roadblock and get delayed. I can go home and turn off work because I don't fear being terminated if I fall behind.

I suspect it has something to do with typical work culture in game studios. I'm sure the type of product also plays a role on that as well. Epic's Fortnite team has a better WLB that someone putting out an annualized "AAA" million dollar game because Fortnite's platform is built with a tool for revenue while continuing development of additional content. Most big-budget games have one-time fees that come after +80% of the work has been done, and that puts strain on timelines working out with budgets. Its why paid DLC and micro transactions creep into these games as it is additional revenue beyond the initial ticket price.

If we are being honest, games are under priced in some cases at $60 considering inflation. It also doesn't help that the market for games promotes steep discounts due to aggressive sales, especially on digital platforms like Steam. Its so common to undervalue a game I've run into people offended that Nintendo refuses to drop the price on their flagship games like Breath of the Wild and Mario Odyssey years later. They think it is a right to buy a game at a lower price if it is 6 months old or more. And can you blame him? I've learned to not buy Ubisoft games even if they are good until at least a month or later because they will drop in price very quickly. And with all of the post-release support most games receive in the way of bug fixes, new features, performance enhancements, and balance patches, it almost makes sense to wait for a price drop.

So the games industry has backed themselves into a bit of a catch-22 situation and they work their teams harder to compensate.
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Offline Luigi Dude

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2020, 06:49:51 PM »
I think the biggest issue is literally every major gaming company that isn't Nintendo is controlled by people with no experience in the creation of actual videogames.  They don't realize how the design process works, and so they have no problem asking for unrealistic development cycles that lead to horrible treatment of employees and the quality of the games suffering as a result.  It reminds me how interviews from former Rare employees who originally thought being bought by Microsoft was going to be great and they'd have so much more freedom, but then realize just how wrong they were.

Nintendo might have been strict on certain things, but was more willing to delay a title if they felt the quality needed it.  The supervisors from Nintendo would also give advice to Rare when game were having issues to help create a better vision that would help with development as well.  They did the same with Retro where it was Miyamoto who told them to make it First Person when they were having trouble getting the gameplay to work right in third person, and Miyamoto said a first person view would accomplish what they wanted to do better.

In comparison, Microsoft basically set deadlines for when a game had to be ready and if there was trouble with development there was no higher ups that could come in to give guidance.  So this would put a lot more stress on the employees since they now had to put in more work trying to create a clear vision for the game while still getting it done in time.  As development cost have gotten way higher and team much bigger, it's no surprise this kind of attitudes from many of these companies has less to the messes we've been getting.
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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2020, 07:54:28 PM »
I think the biggest issue is literally every major gaming company that isn't Nintendo is controlled by people with no experience in the creation of actual videogames.  They don't realize how the design process works, and so they have no problem asking for unrealistic development cycles that lead to horrible treatment of employees and the quality of the games suffering as a result.
Nah, man. I’m not giving them that, particularly Sony. It has been in the gaming business for over 25 years. The people who run Sony Interactive Entertainment and its subsidiaries such as Naughty Dog know how it all works. This is simply prioritizing immediate profits at the cost of human suffering. The people in charge can either delay the game and make the same profits months later, or pay people for optional crunch time.

No offense to you. I don’t mean this as an indictment on what you wrote. I just have no patience for the lack of common decency from these execs running people into the ground and taking advantage of the non-hourly pay structure. Maybe I’m spoiled by having followed Nintendo for so long. As you mentioned, it’ll just delay a game. Most recently, Nintendo delayed Animal Crossing out of 2019 entirely to avoid what other companies call crunch time. To Nintendo, crunch time involves hiring more contractors/increasing headcount rather than increasing hours of employees. This is, of course, in addition to stories like Satoru Iwata taking a 50% pay cut rather than laying off employees after a particularly bad fiscal year. There’s just no universe in which I give a company a pass for treating employees and contractors poorly. Responsibility starts at the top.

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2020, 02:21:57 AM »
Apparently Sony claims that they know where the leak came from and it didn't come from inside the company somehow. I am curious about how that's supposed to make sense

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2020, 09:08:02 AM »
Apparently Sony claims that they know where the leak came from and it didn't come from inside the company somehow. I am curious about how that's supposed to make sense

You know the situation is bad when Sony would rather say they were hacked AGAIN (this is, what..the 3rd time now) rather than admit that they have no control over Naughty Dog. Because really, unless Sony wants to claim that someone literally broke into Naughty Dog's offices & stole a dev kit (which SOMEONE would have noticed), that's the only other way this could have gotten out.

I mean, they could claim that someone at the mastering plant leaked it, except that The Last of Us 2 hadn't gone gold yet, so they wouldn't have had it yet.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2020, 09:10:31 AM by broodwars »
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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2020, 01:54:39 PM »
You know the situation is bad when Sony would rather say they were hacked AGAIN (this is, what..the 3rd time now) rather than admit that they have no control over Naughty Dog. Because really, unless Sony wants to claim that someone literally broke into Naughty Dog's offices & stole a dev kit (which SOMEONE would have noticed), that's the only other way this could have gotten out.

Not defending Sony here, but I'm not sure if a hack or theft is the most obvious conclusion to draw here? Various builds of games pass through many (internal & external) offices before ever reaching market. Warner Bros. managed to hold a focus group and somehow still have someone leak video from their upcoming Harry Potter game. Information is difficult to control (luckily so, imo).
[EDIT: Spoke to soon perhaps? Schreier reports a hack may have been the case after all.]

I agree someone within Sony (a massive corporation) or Naughty Dog would be obvious candidates, especially if speculation about a disgruntled employee is correct. Naughty Dog has repeatedly relied on crunch development (not just on Last of Us 2, but also on Uncharted). That's bound to burn people out, especially if no compensation is offered.

This is the same company which allegedly tried to covered up internal sexual abuse by having Sony HR step in and offer the victim $20,000 of shush money. The following is speculative, but if HR is clearly not on the side of the employees, what avenue do employees have to resolve conflicts?

Honestly, we're doing Sony a favour by turning this into a witch hunt for the suspected leaker. That distracts from what seems to be the underlying problem, a terrible work culture. For the workers, you can bet this leak will result in a long internal investigation. That could exacerbate internal distrust, and purposefully isolates people a bit from each other. Sony/ND can spin this in such a way that the search for the leaker becomes their lightning rod for a while, and wave that as an excuse to not treat their employees better.
Fans may even take corporate's side on this because they don't want their precious game spoiled.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 12:17:31 PM by Steefosaurus »

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2020, 06:10:53 PM »
According to Jason Schreier, the cover story regarding The Last of Us 2's leak is that someone "hacked" Naughty Dog's development servers via the online multiplayer of an older title. If this sounds like bullshit, that's probably because it's likely bullshit.

In other Naughty Dog news, apparently someone claiming to be affiliated with Naughty Dog and/or Sony is going around issuing copyright takedown strikes on not only Youtube channels that discuss the leaks, but also those that discuss that the leaks occurred at all (without discussing what was in those leaks). Lovely.
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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2020, 10:15:06 PM »
So, what's the fix for "crunch culture"?
Developers have to form unions and/or people have to stop buying games from developers forced into crunch. Send a message to publishers that crunch is unacceptable. That’s a lot of organizing which makes it unlikely so yeah, the answer is to form unions.

I'm for developers having unions, but what do they ask for? A limit to the number of hours per week?  Guaranteed overtime pay?  I'm not sure, but publishers will still have to find a way to break even on any deal they make with unions.  Either make cuts, increase prices, or change the model.

I've worked in the games industry in a minor, QA, capacity, so I'm not about to say it's realistic that we can ever really get rid of crunch. However, the amount of crunch that has to be done can be managed by having competent management with a clear development plan and realistic goals that take into account that the train's going to derail at some point. If your plan bakes in time to get the train back onto the tracks, you can minimize crunch.

The problem is that the inmates run the asylum over at Naughty Dog, so the only solution I can think of is for Sony to fire the management and restructure the company. There's just too much of a perfectionist, direction-less culture there right now, and I suspect that they aren't as profitable as Sony wants people to believe they are. Sony had to bail out both Uncharted 4 & The Last of Us 2 with significant delays when they languished in development hell for years, and even despite that the crunch was still horrendous.

Agreed.  I don't think you can get rid of it completely.  The game has a deadline and unless you're finishing early, there's gonna be a push to the end.  And like you suggested, the competent management can minimize the amount of crunch with proper planning.  I come from an industry where we have the same thing, but we call it "busy season".  It's generally accepted that you can work 80+ hours per week for a while, but you get a pretty flexible schedule outside of that.

Some crunch time is probably inevitable, and not such a big deal when people are rewarded appropriately with time and money afterwards.

Continuous crunch time is a real problem though, and usually an indication that management has no clue what they are doing. Something on the project has to go significantly off-track, whether that's over-promising for content and delivery times or actual development issues that couldn't be easily foreseen.


That said, I feel like games being increasingly large and complex makes the whole development cycle more taxing. Teams are larger and more spread out, and the likelihood of unexpected problems cropping up during development are much higher also. Trying to accurately scope the time and resources that a large project will need is really difficult, and when mistakes happen it can affect a lot of people depending on how much pressure the company is under to live up to early commitments.

Being in stuck in it for months on end really sucks because it takes a toll on both your physical and mental health pretty quickly.  But to your last point, I think part of the answer is scoping games down.  At some point, I think the $60 model is going to stop being profitable for big games, and I think we might be getting there pretty quickly.
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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2020, 11:02:59 PM »
Timely. Lab Zero announced their 1st (?) piece of post-launch Indivisible DLC, which is a set of platforming & combat challenges (ever the go-to favorite of lazy DLC. Control and Star Wars Jedi Fallen order recently got those, too). The DLC comes out this week on PS4, and who knows when (if ever) it will hit the new Switch version. At least it offers new trophies, so along with New Game+ there's at least some reason to go back to Indivisible. Snark aside, the platforming gauntlets were my favorite sections of the main game, so I could maybe see a replay for this.

https://www.playstationtrophies.org/news/news-30755-Indivisible--Razmi-s-Challenges--DLC-Arrives-This-Week-with-New-Trophies.html

And no, backers were not told this was coming, and I highly doubt backers will get codes for this.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 11:07:21 PM by broodwars »
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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2020, 02:15:58 PM »
I'm for developers having unions, but what do they ask for? A limit to the number of hours per week?  Guaranteed overtime pay?  I'm not sure, but publishers will still have to find a way to break even on any deal they make with unions. Either make cuts, increase prices, or change the model.
Ask for a fair compromise. Companies are taking advantage of salary pay loopholes. If a publisher can’t release a game without mistreating its workers, it shouldn’t be in business. To me, exploitation is the line.

My understanding is developers are not being compensated for excessive mandatory overtime. To start, overtime ever being mandatory is ridiculous on its face. If it’s mandatory, it isn’t overtime anymore; it’s just the time. And since it’s mandatory, workers are being threatened with insubordination for not working OT and possibly being fired. What kind of asinine logic is that? If a company is going to keep workers away from their homes/families, the least they could do is pay them for the personal and interpersonal stress that overtime causes.

Crunch time is an unfortunate reality of the games industry. I understand the need to release products by certain dates. I’m in favor of just delaying the game because if it’s worth a damn, it’ll make money anyway. If delaying a game isn’t possible for whatever reason, just don’t be a dick about it. These publishers clearly cannot be trusted to not be dicks so a union that keeps them in line would be beneficial for worker rights.

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2020, 02:50:22 PM »
I think the extra hours leading up to the release is something that's unavoidable.  They're gonna need all hands on deck for extended hours for at least a few weeks.  But unions could certainly demand more flexible hours during other time frames and more guaranteed bonuses.  I'm sure actual programmers have more specific wants, but that's what I'm thinking.  Something that at least puts them in line with other industries that have that type of work cycle.
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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2020, 03:17:40 PM »
Crunch is something that is just unavoidable as you near release, ESPECIALLY when your game is I'm certification and one of the platform holders finds a must-fix rare crash bug that all the wagons have to be circled for in all departments to get locked down.

Or when hypothetically Nintendo of Japan decides that system friend names aren't being immediately displayed correctly in the first second that a leaderboard is refreshing once you cross over 100 names. Not that I ever ran into such a ridiculous bug, one so ridiculous that even NoA and NoE would have to step in to tell NoA to knock it off.

On an unrelated note, Nintendo certification can **** off, at least as it was during the Wii's life cycle. It's just the most insanely convoluted, hierarchical, lovecraftian nightmare.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 03:20:18 PM by broodwars »
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Offline pokepal148

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2020, 03:44:29 AM »
And now Sony has been caught blatantly inflating The Last of Us 2's user score on the PSN store with hundreds of 5 star scores.

Offline broodwars

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2020, 06:54:48 PM »
In other Naughty Dog news, apparently someone claiming to be affiliated with Naughty Dog and/or Sony is going around issuing copyright takedown strikes on not only Youtube channels that discuss the leaks, but also those that discuss that the leaks occurred at all (without discussing what was in those leaks). Lovely.

In a hilarious follow-up to this (which has been getting incredibly ridiculous), Sony today posted a new official trailer for The Last of Us 2 today...which was promptly copyright-stricken by...themselves.  :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/PlayStation/status/1258131429936021507
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Offline ejamer

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2020, 09:31:27 AM »
In other Naughty Dog news, apparently someone claiming to be affiliated with Naughty Dog and/or Sony is going around issuing copyright takedown strikes on not only Youtube channels that discuss the leaks, but also those that discuss that the leaks occurred at all (without discussing what was in those leaks). Lovely.

In a hilarious follow-up to this (which has been getting incredibly ridiculous), Sony today posted a new official trailer for The Last of Us 2 today...which was promptly copyright-stricken by...themselves.  :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/PlayStation/status/1258131429936021507

This made me laugh out loud. Thanks for sharing - wouldn't have seen it otherwise.
What a debacle.
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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2020, 11:46:52 PM »
Quote from: a guy on Twitter.
Naughty Dog claimed animal-loving players could complete Last of Us II without having to kill any dogs.

Polygon has confirmed this was a lie, as an unavoidable QTE sequence forces you to murder a dog, then watch a flashback where that same dog happily plays fetch.

What the **** https://t.co/HfRUyUdCTV


link

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2020, 11:54:46 PM »
Quote from: a guy on Twitter.
Naughty Dog claimed animal-loving players could complete Last of Us II without having to kill any dogs.

Polygon has confirmed this was a lie, as an unavoidable QTE sequence forces you to murder a dog, then watch a flashback where that same dog happily plays fetch.

What the **** https://t.co/HfRUyUdCTV


link

The Last of US 2 reviews have been interesting. To quote someone on Twitter: "every last of us 2 review is going to be "it's miserable. it's not fun. playing it actively sucked and i hated every single moment. that's why i'm going to give it a 10/10. ebert was wrong. finally i can show my parents how grown up my job is."

Hit that nail right on the head. Every review I've seen of the game has gone into great detail about how miserable an experience playing it is, & how they hate playing it...and then they turn around & give it a high score. I was actually willing to give the game a 2nd chance if the reviews basically confirmed that the leaks were out of context & the story DOES work in context, but just about every one that's gone near the embargoed subject has confirmed that the story is just as awful, miserable, & full of despicable characters as the leaks made it appear.

So instead of gearing up for Last of Us 2, I'm replaying Ratchet & Clank 2016 right now. It feels...cathartic.
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Offline pokepal148

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2020, 02:49:54 AM »
I'm watching a stream of the game. There is literally 15 minutes of Elle walking followed by a QTE, a bunch of cutscenes, and walking for another 10 minutes, than she throws a rock at a window and does some basic parkour, and than there's 25(!) minutes of walking and cutscenes before he uninstalled the game out of shrer frustration.

Offline Luigi Dude

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2020, 02:12:09 PM »
That said, I feel like games being increasingly large and complex makes the whole development cycle more taxing. Teams are larger and more spread out, and the likelihood of unexpected problems cropping up during development are much higher also. Trying to accurately scope the time and resources that a large project will need is really difficult, and when mistakes happen it can affect a lot of people depending on how much pressure the company is under to live up to early commitments.

Being in stuck in it for months on end really sucks because it takes a toll on both your physical and mental health pretty quickly.  But to your last point, I think part of the answer is scoping games down.  At some point, I think the $60 model is going to stop being profitable for big games, and I think we might be getting there pretty quickly.

Looks like Shawn Layden, former chairmen of Sony Interactive Entertainment Worldwide Studios, in a recent interview agrees.

https://venturebeat.com/2020/06/23/shawn-layden-interview-the-man-with-the-crash-bandicoot-t-shirt/view-all/

Quote
Layden: I still remember when games would cost $1 million to make. Those days are long gone. The cost of creating games has increased. Some studies show that’s gone up 2X every time a console generation advances. The problem with that model is it’s just not sustainable. Major triple-A games in the current generation go anywhere from $80 million to $150 million or more to build, and that’s before marketing. It’s a huge up-front cost. Extended over time, it takes three or four or five years to build a game while you’re not getting any return on the investment. You just continue to pay into it looking for the big payoff at the end.

I don’t think, in the next generation, you can take those numbers and multiply them by two and expect the industry to continue to grow. The industry as a whole needs to sit back and think, “What are we building? What’s the audience expectation? What is the best way to get our stories across, to say what we need to say?” That’s going to cause the industry to look at the kind of games we’re doing, where we go from there, and what we’re putting into them. It’s hard for every adventure game to shoot for 50 or 60 hours of gameplay. That’s going to be so much more expensive to achieve.

Quote
Layden:  How can we look at that and say, “Is there another answer?” Instead of spending five years to make an 80-hour game, what does three years and a 15-hour game look like? What are the costs around that? Is that a full experience? Personally, as an older gamer now, I would welcome the return of the 12-15 hour game. I would finish more games, first of all. Just like a well-edited piece of literature or a movie — I’ve been looking at the discipline around that, the containment around that. It could get us tighter, more compelling content. It would be something I’d like to see a return to.
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2020, 07:18:43 PM »
You know how in other mediums there are only a handful of major publishers?  There's the big three labels, the big five movie studios, and the big five book publishers.  It isn't like that in videogames... yet.  We don't have as many publishers as we used to have but we still aren't down to only a handful.  If the budget of game development keeps increasing then it will shrink the amount of publishers that are still in the business.  But for the biggest publishers that may be worth it to narrow the competition down to an oligopoly.  Controlling the market in that manner might be worth the investment.

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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2020, 01:23:55 PM »
At least in gaming there are some factors that level the playing field. Indies have built a string following and being all-digital for most of their efforts also lowers cost of entry, and the fact that there are over a dozen sales ecosystems also helps (Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Steam, GOG, Epic, etc).

Other industries may not have similar focuses on indie output. Indie film festivals are the only thing that comes to mind. Amazon has really got a stranglehold on the book scene.
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Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2020, 08:59:38 PM »
I really liked that interview, and I'm glad he touched on smaller scale games, which is what I'd like to see. He talked a lot about costs and revenues, but I don't think he mentioned price increases? He mentioned $60 being the norm, but I think games one TLOU2's scale may run up to $80.
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