Topic: GameCube Price Drop and New Specs for Japan

[KDR_11k]

I won't cry over that. Why? Well, there's zero support for that port in the PAL regions, anyway. I don't know whether PAL even theoretically allows for progressive scan. Hell, I've noticed the interlacing only once and that was on our widescreen (I'm still thinking they should have gotten a normal 4:3) 100Hz TV. Because the thing apparently draws each frame multiple times, it can draw different frames at once and you can see both showing different images if there's fast movement on screen.

Canuck: You've been told like 10 times already, it's technically impossible to have a game run on Dolby Digital due to decoder delays. Those claiming DD support only have it during cuscenes (when you can predict sounds) and use Pro Logic for the rest of the game. Hell, with PLIIx games your Cube outputs a 7.1 signal! Your expensive home theatre should be able to handle that signal and give you the "entertaining experience" you desire so much.

[anubis6789]

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Originally posted by: joshnickerson
My GOD I think you people are over-reacting a bit.
Think about it for a second. Exactly how many game players do you know who have over $10,000 worth of progressive scan TV and equipment? Most of these game systems are more than likely plugged up to the smaller TV in the household, in the rumpus room or whatever it's called, probably a good chunk are still using the RF adaptor.
You are jumping to conclusions and whining just like I'd expect from IGNCube. Boo-frickity-hoo. GET OVER IT.

First off, Just because you don't use it does not mean others don't. What if because only 1% or so of people use the BBA or modem so Nintendo decided to get rid of that, or maybe they decide that not enough people use the second memory card slot, ect.

Second, people do not have to spend $10,000 to use a component cable, I use them on my analog TV for better picture, and I hope that there will be a day were I will be able to use the progressive scan feature.

Maybe some of us are over-reacting, or jumping conclusions, but look at it from both sides before you call someone a whiney baby.

[anubis6789]

KDR_11k, you do know that the Xbox has an internal DD decoder in it right, so it is very possible to have DD during gameplay, maybe not for the PS2 or GCN (for obvious reasons) but the Xbox can.

If you have a reliable link that proves me wrong then I will concede.

[KDR_11k]

Well, if you decode it inside the machine you don't output a DD signal anymore, right? And that means you wouldn't have to encode it in first place (as the game itself only delivers directions, not an output signal), right? I'd guess the delay happens in your speaker-controller-thingy (is that the amp?), not the console itself, as the console could be built in a way to avoid that lag.

[manunited4eva22]

The soundstorm does decode DD, and it can convert so that it can use DD on a theatre set, but honestly, the mechanics involved lower the sound definitions to not much over PL2, so I really don't give a damn.

Again though, I have a higher end set picture wise (Apple cinema DVi monitor), and very very close to you in sound (7.1 THX certified), so please don't throw the "you just don't know until you've been there" idea, as it's baseless.

NOA is doing stupid, but I doubt they will stand against NCL, if NCL wants new cables, they will offer the new cables.  

[evilnate]

Here's my take on this, and I think others might agree.  With a wife and kid to take care of, I only have the money for one system and games for that system.  I chose Nintendo, partially because I enjoy their games, and partially because I know that I'll get visuals and audio comparable to the other systems.  I know that I'll get a decent selection of third party games, even if it's not as good a selection as other systems.

That being said, I'm beginning to agree with those which say that this might be my last Nintendo console, if this "cost cutting measure" is any indication of Nintendo's direction.  It's not just this one thing, it's this in connection with statements out of Japan about how "good graphics aren't important" or people "want simpler games with simpler gameplay".  This all may be true - to a certain extent.  As much as I love a simple game, "Luigi's Mansion" for example, I also want to play a complex fighting game, or a good sports game, or even a sim-type game.  I want variety, and I want good graphics and sound.  I used to be confident that I'd get that from a Nintendo console, but now...?

The thing about this announcement, is that it's one more reason for third parties to give the Cube lackluster support, or at best poor ports.  "We wanted our game to be graphically superior", game developers will say, "That's why we chose not to support the Gamecube, with it's lack of Progressive scan."  It might be a lame or flimsy excuse, but you know it will be used.

The thing is, despite this being billed as a "cost-cutting measure", it may end up costing Nintendo far more than they save.  High definition is here to stay, heck, I just bought one three months ago!  If people - meaning here, in America - see that Nintendo's console doesn't support their shiny new HDTV, while the Playstation 2 (or 3) and the Xbox (2) does, which way do you think they'll lean?  I'm thinking of leaning the same way myself.  I'll miss Mario and Metroid, but at this point that may not be enough.

[Bill Aurion]

Ok, that makes no sense...Picking HD over great gameplay?  And you call yourself a gamer...

"I also want to play a complex fighting game, or a good sports game, or even a sim-type game."

If you want these games, get a different system...I hate all three of those genres, so I'm in heaven with the GC's lineup...

[anubis6789]

I don't think that makes any sense, because PL2 goes through way more proccesing then a DD signal, and if it is the reciever(amp) then those that run a video signal through them would also have a small delay on video as well. I'm sorry, but I just don't understand what you mean.

[KDR_11k]

Anubis: Well, I only heard it second hand from one of the local tech masters (GN or TRSF, I believe).

evilnate: A complex fighting game can very well be controlled with two or three buttons, just because capcom went completely overkill with buttons doesn't mean noone else can do it (Virtua Fighter: Kick, Punch, Guard; Soul Calibur: Vertical, Horizontal, Kick, Guard). A sim (especially flight sims) is impossible to play with ANY kind of gamepad, a joystick, throttle control and maybe a keyboard are required for getting all of those controls mapped somewhere. Sports games don't need complex controls, either. Back on the C64 we had ONE button and that was sufficient for sports games!

[jalman64]

Here's my take:

I have a home theater system.  Maybe not worth many thousands of dollars, but enough for a cool experience when I play games.  Having surround sound and large image projected on a wall does make a difference when playing Gamecube games.

XBox, and to a lesser extent GC, are probably the first consoles to my knowledge to have certain developers explore the full possibilities of a home theater-type experience on a console w/high resolutions and surround sound for games.  While XBox may go all the way with high definition and Dolby Digital support, the many GC games having progressive scan and Pro Logic II isn't bad either.

While I'm not exactly happy to see the digital AV port go (did Nintendo ever plan to use something for the "A" part), as long as the Cube can still support progressive scan and there will be cheaper cable options, it's not a huge deal.  Yes, I'm also one the "old" Cube owners.

[jalman64]

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Originally posted by: Bill
Ok, that makes no sense...Picking HD over great gameplay?  And you call yourself a gamer...

I don't think anyone here has said that.   HD (or even 480p) and great gameplay aren't mutually exclusive.  Some of us gamers enjoy a nice looking AND playing game.

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"I also want to play a complex fighting game, or a good sports game, or even a sim-type game."

If you want these games, get a different system...I hate all three of those genres, so I'm in heaven with the GC's lineup...

Soul Caliber II and Super Smash Bros Melee aren't "complex fighting games?"

Madden 2004 and NBA 2K3 aren't "good sports games?"

Believe it or not, just because the Gamecube doesn't have the largest selection of games from every genre doesn't mean the games already available completely suck.

[mouse_clicker]

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Believe it or not, just because the Gamecube doesn't have the largest selection of games from every genre doesn't mean the games already available completely suck.

He never said they sucked, just that he didn't like them, and that it's convenient that he doesn't like the very genres the Gamecube is lacking in.

[Shecky]

This somehow reminds me of the PS1 and the parallel port on the back.
Although the PS1 was actually removing functionality IMO.
                                                                                                                           
This is all just a pin-out folks, of which 4 are used for the regular A/V cables
- so they just need to employ 3 more and bam, you have your component out.
(the S-video stuff likely uses some other pins as well, but I'm not sure
how many)
                                                                                                                           
If you ask me, this is how the cube should have been done the first time
around.  Right now it's overly complicated as you need both cables to get video
and sound.  I much rather have it that you only need one cable that plugs into
the A/V port with 5 RCA plugs for a component solution.
                                                                                                                           
Since they've been keeping this pin-out consistent over their product line the
new cable will probably even work with the next system... if anything this is a
pseudo confirmation of exactly how the gamecube's successor will do component
output.  Also, yeah you could plug this cable into your SNES and N64, but
you'll only get sound.
                                                                                                                           
And if I had a component setup with an older cube and it died, the first thing
I would do is call up Nintendo and negotiate a trade up of the old to new cable
version.  It might be a little bit of a headache, but nothing to the degree
that's made out on this board and definitely not as big of a headache as my
cube dying in the first place.

[thecubedcanuck]

" it's technically impossible to have a game run on Dolby Digital due to decoder delays."

False

" Ok, that makes no sense...Picking HD over great gameplay? And you call yourself a gamer..."

He never said that, you again read only what you want to read. For me personally, I will not buy a next gen system that does not support DD and HD. As for great gameplay, there are planty of games on both the PS2 and X-box that are as good or better than any Nintendo made game.

"Exactly how many game players do you know who have over $10,000 worth of progressive scan TV and equipment? Most of these game systems are more than likely plugged up to the smaller TV in the household, in the rumpus room or whatever it's called, probably a good chunk are still using the RF adaptor. "

You dont need a 10k system, you can get a home theater in a box for under $200. I highly doubt MOST are hooked up to the smallest TV in the house anymore either, and the RF comment is really laughable. Read something other than these forums and you will find many gamers have elaborate systems to enjoy their games on. Read the AVS forums, with 150,000+ members and tell them your theory.

"If you want these games, get a different system...I hate all three of those genres, so I'm in heaven with the GC's lineup... "

good for you, but you are clearly in the gaming minority.

[mouse_clicker]

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For me personally, I will not buy a next gen system that does not support DD and HD.

How is that not choosing a hard drive or DD over great gameplay? You're basically telling us that you'll ignore any console that does not have a hard drive or DD available regardless of games for it. In the process of trying to counter Bill you just proved him right.

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that again is a crock of chit. I love the games as well,  but that doesnt mean that  they shouldnt offer the most entertaining experience possible, especially when your direct competitors do.

You fell into the same trap you claim Bill did- you only read what you wanted to read. I never said Nintendo shouldn't offer such features, just that it doesn't make ANY difference that they don't from a gamer's standpoint. All those extra features are nice, and do enhance the game yes, but there's a reason they're called extra features and not essential features. I'm not arguing that Nintendo removing these features is a good thing- far from it, Nintendo should be piling the features on. What I'm trying to get across to you an Ian is that complaining about the loss of some completely superfluous feature is akin to complaining that you dropped a penny.  If having digital output and the highest possible quality video is required for you to like games, Cubed, then you have some serious issues to sort out. And if that is the case, yes, you are being superficial.

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You you can call it superficial all you want, I believe color TV was once laughed at and called supficial as well.

You ever watch I Love Lucy? Perhaps the Dick Van Dyke Show? What about The Honeymooners? Maybe you've seen Fleischer Studios' Popeye cartoons? Or Psycho? Certainly The Haunting? ANY Charlie Chaplain movie? Hell, even Young Frankenstein?  ALL of these are cinematic masterpieces, and ALL of these are in black and white. If you can't even recognize the beauty of such television shows and movies (some of which actually work better in black and white), then I believe I have every right to call you superficial.

   

[thecubedcanuck]

"How is that not choosing a hard drive over great gameplay? You're basically telling us that you'll ignore any console that does not have a hard drive regardless of games for it. In the process of trying to counter Bill you just proved him right."

HD = high Def not Hard drive.  I dont feel NINs games are any better than anyone elses, so when I make my decision, I base it on many factors, Sound and visuals being important, the games being foremost, and from my point of view NIN doesnt  offer me what I want in any of the three catagories.

"You ever watch I Love Lucy? Perhaps the Dick Van Dyke Show? What about The Honeymooners? Maybe you've seen Fleischer Studios' Popeye cartoons? Or Psycho? Certainly The Haunting? ANY Charlie Chaplain movie? Hell, even young Frankenstein? ALL of these are cinematic masterpieces, and ALL of these are in black and white. If you can't even recognize the beauty of such television shows and movies (some of which actually work better in black and white), then I believe I have every right to call you superficial."

Yes, I have seen most of them and cant stand them, They are not my cup of tea, nothing to do with superficial, I just dont enjoy watching them.

"You fell into the same trap you claim Bill did- you only read what you wanted to read. I never said Nintendo shouldn't offer such features, just that it doesn't make ANY difference that they don't from a gamer's standpoint. All those extra features are nice, and do enhance the game yes, but there's a reason they're called extra features and not essential features. If having digital output and the highest possible quality video is required for you to like games, Cubed, then you have some serious issues to sort out. And if that is the case, yes, you are being superficial."

I dont think these are extra features, I think SOUND and VISUALS are keys to enjoyment of a game, and the better they are, the better the experience. To say that is superficial sounds like simple jealousy because you dont have the luxury of them, so you dont feel they matter.

[Ian Sane]

"I never said Nintendo shouldn't offer such features, just that it doesn't make ANY difference that they don't from a gamer's standpoint. All those extra features are nice, and do enhance the game yes, but there's a reason they're called extra features and not essential features."

Progressive Scan is an essential feature.  Why?  Because the other consoles have it and therefore the Cube should have it too.  I wouldn't say that it's required for a good game but I would consider it a requirement for a good console.  And this is different than not including a feature.  It's REMOVING a feature which is much worse.

I would say that yes good games are more important than compatibility with high end equipment.  But there's NO EXCUSE to not have both.  Right now we have both and it's pretty sweet.

One thing I've noticed a lot of you do is take a "well it's good enough" attitude with Nintendo.  As long as they have great games there's this attitude that they're allowed to make stupid mistakes.  Well "good enough" is not sufficient.  When I buy a console I want it to be "as good as possible".  That means that features that the competition have are matched.  That means that a really serious effort is made to attract as many third parties as possible and as many key games.  That means flexibility in genres and themes.  That means the option to use modern technology like progressive scan or online gaming.  That means that as many options as possible should be available to the userbase.  With all of their other consoles (including the N64) Nintendo put 110% into their consoles and did whatever they could (ie: the N64 was limited by the cartridge issue) to make it the best it could be.  This "good enough" approach that they've taken with the Cube is the VERY REASON they're being matched by Microsoft, a console newcomber.

"Good enough" is not good enough and we shouldn't tolerate it.  I want 110% effort from Nintendo not 80%.

[mouse_clicker]

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HD = high Def not Hard drive.

My mistake, sorry- still works for me, though.

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I dont feel NINs games are any better than anyone elses, so when I make my decision, I base it on many factors, Sound and visuals being important, the games being foremost, and from my point of view NIN doesnt offer me what I want in any of the three catagories.

This isn't about Nintendo- you said you wouldn't buy ANY console not offering HD or DD. You're probably not going to buy Nintendo's next console regardless of what features they offer, which is perfectly fine, but it shouldn't be for anything like whether or not it offers HD or DD. Cubed, you're saying yourself that unless you can play the next round of consoles with the highest possible quality sound and the highest possible quality picture, you will not play them at all. Please, explain to me how this is not being shallow?

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Yes, I have seen most of them and cant stand them, They are not my cup of tea, nothing to do with superficial, I just dont enjoy watching them.

Once again, Cubed, you have entirely missed the point of my post- I was not asking you whether or not you liked them personally but whether you were able to look beyond their lack of colors. I brought them up in your response that it was wrong for people to claim color TV was superficial, but if people honestly won't watch something because it's in black and white, then they ARE being superficial.

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To say that is superficial sounds like simple jealousy because you dont have the luxury of them, so you dont feel they matter.

Are you serious? You're actually claiming I'M jealous of YOU. You're also being rather arrogant, Cubed. I own a 20" flatscreen TV. I have my Dreamcast, Gamecube, PS2, and satellite receiver hooked up to it via S-video cables. It has component inputs, but I know that component isn't much better than S-video on a TV that is not high definition. I plan on buying an HDTV as soon as their prices get a little lower- I'm very frugal and don't like paying a lot of money for something only to find out afterwards that I could have paid much less. I'm also planning on setting up surround sound in my room, again, once I find a good quality reciever and some speakers that aren't unecessarily expensive. Hell, I paid $130 for a metal Dance Dance Revolution pad. Don't claim you know me- you'll only come off even more pretentious than you already are. Yes, I do enjoy the luxury of ALL these things, but luxury is not essential, Cubed, and can only add to the experience when present, not take away from it when absent. Like I said, up until recently I played all of my consoles on my 15 inch 8 year old TV via the crappiest R/F cables you could possibly imagine (or on another TV that's even older than I am and has a faulty composite jack), but that didn't stop me from enjoying my games, and it wouldn't stop me if I had to give up everything I have now and go back to it, and it shouldn't stop you, either. You've become too wrapped up in all of your little extras, so much so that you actually refuse to buy a console that doesn't offer them next generation. I recognize the value of luxury, Cubed, I'm just not as obsessed with it as you are.

   

[thecubedcanuck]

"This isn't about Nintendo- you said you wouldn't buy ANY console not offering HD or DD. You're probably not going to buy Nintendo's next console regardless of what features they offer, which is perfectly fine, but it shouldn't be for anything like whether or not it offers HD or DD. Cubed, you're saying yourself that unless you can play the next round of consoles with the highest possible quality sound and the highest possible quality picture, you will not play them at all. Please, explain to me how this is not being shallow?"

I dont think its shallow at all. I refuse to support a company that thinks I should settle for second rate gear because they dont feel like including it when competiton does. I also dont think Nintendo's games are good enough anymore to warrent making that sacrafice. Call it shallow all you want.

"Once again, Cubed, you have entirely missed the point of my post- I was not asking you whether or not you liked them personally but whether you were able to look beyond their lack of colors. I brought them up in your response that it was wrong for people to claim color TV was superficial, but if people honestly won't watch something because it's in black and white, then they ARE being superficial."

Again, no it isnt superficial. Who the hell decided what people should and shouldnt like or watch for whatever reason they want. I hate LUCY, not because its in black and white, but becuase I find the humor to be intollerable. You seem to be putting TV and gaming on a pedastal (sp?), I look at them as entertainment, nothing more.

"Like I said, up until recently I played all of my consoles on my 15 inch 8 year old TV via the crappiest R/F cables you could possibly imagine (or on another TV that's older than I am and has a faulty composite jack), but that didn't stop me from enjoying my games, and it wouldn't stop me if I had to give up everything I have now and go back to it, and it shouldn't stop you, either. You've become too wrapped up in all of your little extras, so much so that you actually refuse to buy a console that doesn't offer them next generation."

Again, I dont feel that NIN's games are good enough for me to make the sacrafice of buying an inferior product. The games on all 3 consoles are fairly equal, so I will choose the console that gives me the most of what i want out side of the games. As for the extras as you call them, I like them and CHOOSE to be wrapped up in them, their job is to entertain me, and the extras help in that regard.

"Are you serious? You're actually claiming I'M jealous of YOU. You're also being rather arrogant, Cubed."

I am sorry if it came off that way, not intended.

[evilnate]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane<brProgressive Scan is an essential feature.  Why?  Because the other consoles have it and therefore the Cube should have it too.  I wouldn't say that it's required for a good game but I would consider it a requirement for a good console.  And this is different than not including a feature.  It's REMOVING a feature which is much worse.

I would say that yes good games are more important than compatibility with high end equipment.  But there's NO EXCUSE to not have both.  Right now we have both and it's pretty sweet.

Exactly.  I can't speak for anyone else, but IMO, this whole thing is entirely Nintendo's fault.  They claim that only 1% of the user base uses the digitial out and component cables (which is something that I find hard to believe).  The thing is, how many people would be using them if they had been available on store racks, not just on some hard to find page on their web site?  So rather than making the cables more widely available, in order to get more people to use the cables, they cut the port altogether, to save what?  A quarter on every Gamecube produced?

It extends beyond that as well.  If there isn't going to be a component cable option available in the US, and the recent comments by NOA don't give me any reason to think otherwise, then I'm willing to bet that third party support for the option will dry up.  And, if Metriod Prime 2 or Wind Walker 2 aren't Prog Scan compatable, I will be very pissed.  As a next-gen console, the Gamecube (and it's games) should support as many next-gen features as possible.  One of the reasons I decided to buy an HDTV in the first place was to allow my games to look as good as they could.  The Gamecube has allowed this, so far...

[mouse_clicker]

Cubed: All I'm asking you is to look beyond the surface- don't ignore great games simply because you can't play them in with the best sound and picture. And I'm not talking about Nintendo- if you honestly don't like Nintendo's games, then I see absolutely no reason for you to buy their next console. It would be a waste of money. But, like I said, I'm not talking about Nintendo- forget Nintendo for a moment. If Sony were to not offer DD or HD on the PS3, would you ignore it as well, despite the all but certainty that you would love many of the games on the console? You said yourself you would not buy any console that didn't offer DD or HD. You continually miss my point, Cubed- I wasn't saying you SHOULD like I Love Lucy, or any of the other examples I mentioned, just that anyone who ignores them BECAUSE they're in black and white IS being superficial. I understand your desite for extra features- I share that desire, if only on a smaller scale- but don't complain when you lose them because you didn't need them in the first place.  

And yes, I do place entertainment on a pedestal, because without entertainment we would all be sitting here twiddling our thumbs, except that's a form of entertainment as well.

[thecubedcanuck]

Mouse,

If only 1 console next gen offered the features I want, then that would be the only console I would buy. I dont have the time to play 3 consoles anyway. This gen was an experiment of sorts, I have never owned anything othan a NIN console for the last 15 years, so I was curious to try the rest.

Like I say, I can find enough games on any of the three to make me happy, meaning features will make the biggest factor in my buying descision.

"Progressive Scan is an essential feature. Why? Because the other consoles have it and therefore the Cube should have it too. I wouldn't say that it's required for a good game but I would consider it a requirement for a good console."

The problem is this. My TV is a state of the art HD display device and has huge screen. It reproduces source material very, very accuratly. Crappy source = crappy picture, on a big screen this is really magnified. Games look great in 480P,  and look brilliant in 720P, but in 480i they look like chit, even when upconverted via the TV. So it does take away from the experience and makes the game less fun to play. Afterall, fun is what it is about, isnt it?

[mouse_clicker]

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Afterall, fun is what it is about, isnt it?

You keep giving me easy stuff to use, Cubed. Yes, fun is what it's about- if you'll ignore fun because it doesn't look or sound as good as possible, then yes, you are being shallow. I've really said all I can say, Cubed, and I'm guessing you've said all you can say- let's not spam this thread any more than we already have.

[evilnate]

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Originally posted by: thecubedcanuck
Mouse,
The problem is this. My TV is a state of the art HD display device and has huge screen. It reproduces source material very, very accuratly. Crappy source = crappy picture, on a big screen this is really magnified. Games look great in 480P,  and look brilliant in 720P, but in 480i they look like chit, even when upconverted via the TV. So it does take away from the experience and makes the game less fun to play. Afterall, fun is what it is about, isnt it?

Make sure your sharpness is turned all the way down when you're playing a 480i game.  I had the same problem, and turning the sharpness to 0 really helped.  They still don't look as good as a game in 480p, but at least they're playable, instead of being a pixilated mess.

[thecubedcanuck]

"Make sure your sharpness is turned all the way down when you're playing a 480i game. I had the same problem, and turning the sharpness to 0 really helped. They still don't look as good as a game in 480p, but at least they're playable, instead of being a pixilated mess."

My set is ISF calibrated and It doesnt help. On most HD sets shapness adds noise at 50% or higher, 50% or lower will cause dullness, on Toshiba sets that number is about 35% as per ISF guidelines.