Author Topic: Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On  (Read 23826 times)

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Offline ActorJ

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Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2003, 09:10:57 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: EggyToast

So, if these games have a huge 1.8 dvd-type format, how are they going to save games?  The PSP is going to write to these discs, too?  Better not bump it while recording your game!  Better have a good few minutes to wait while the game accesses the right portion of the disc and writes to the disc and updates the TOC file!

Cartridges are beautiful for quick and easy gameplay.


The system has a memory stick slot. It wiall save to the memory stick.

Can we all stop being fools here? Better yet, can we stop taking sony for a fool? It's really quite stupid.


Offline ActorJ

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Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2003, 09:13:49 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: aoi tsuki
i believe it was PS2 IGN that stated that save data would be handled by Memory Sticks. Magic Box had a picture comparing a regular CD/DVD disc and a PSP disc. There was no case.



Uh, look again. There most certainly was a case. Or read all the press releases which specifically mention that the dics is housed in a cartrige.

Offline NWR_Lindy

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Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2003, 12:45:16 PM »
Great discussion guys.  My thoughts...

- Nintendo should switch media to a proprietary disc format to match Sony.  It's time.  They don't want the GameBoy to become the portable N64 - developers flocking over to Sony's machine because the format is cheaper to develop for and offers more storage capacity.  Handheld GameCube anyone?  It's a perfect candidate, they just need to shrink it (and it's already pretty darn small).

- There is no disadvantage to having more storage capacity.  The whole "ROM is better because it forces developers to do more with less" philosophy is pure Nintendo propaganda.  Good developers will make good games regardless of format, bad developers will make bad games regardless of format.  But given a choice, developers will always choose the format with more storage space because its one less problem to code around.  It also lets them add more bells and whistles.  I can hear it now: "We could develop this game for GBA, but with the PSP's extra storage space we can add a Tony Hawk-style stereo soundtrack.  That would be cool."

- Remember that the PSP discs are proprietary.  If the PSP directly accepted PSOne CD-ROMs that would be scary, because it would immediately have a built-in library of 400+ games with no porting development necessary.  The PSP's use of proprietary 4.5" DVD-ROMs cuts down on its immediate access to the PSOne library.  This works in Nintendo's favor because only so many games can be imported at once (and they'll no doubt be upgraded for the PSP, adding more time to the porting process).

- I highly doubt Nintendo will dump backwards compatibility even if it does switch media.  Like you guys have said, I'm sure they'll do something like have a GBA cartridge slot double as a memory card slot.  Backwards compatibility is one of the GameBoy's biggest strengths and a huge market differentiator.

- Don't underestimate the power of the Playstation brand.  The mainstream will buy pretty much anything with the Playstation name on it.  Playstation is perceived as "cool" and "hip".  Don't forget that.  Brand loyalty is one of the reasons Nintendo dominated the 80's and early 90's.

- a 2005 worldwide launch of the GameCube and GameBoy successors would be great.  Attack on both fronts and give Sony no room to move.

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Offline Jollus

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RE: Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2003, 01:20:47 PM »
Check out this article over at C-Net
http://news.com.com/2100-1043_3-1001675.html?tag=fd_top

Look down near the bottom.

Quote

Nintendo of America Vice President Perrin Kaplan didn't seem too concerned during an interview at E3. "We really don't know that much about it, and it's going to be 18 months before anyone sees one," Kaplan said of the PSP. "A lot can happen in 18 months."


Does that just sound like a huge tease to anyone else?
You know what Sony has done to me?  Gotten me Hyped about the new GAMEBOY not their PSP.  

Offline mouse_clicker

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Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #54 on: May 15, 2003, 01:45:43 PM »
Perrin Kaplan, ever the Jedi Master with her Mind Tricks.
"You know you're being too serious when Mouse tells you to lighten up... ^_^"<BR>-Bill

Offline ActorJ

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Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #55 on: May 15, 2003, 01:50:38 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Jollus
Check out this article over at C-Net
http://news.com.com/2100-1043_3-1001675.html?tag=fd_top

Look down near the bottom.

Quote

Nintendo of America Vice President Perrin Kaplan didn't seem too concerned during an interview at E3. "We really don't know that much about it, and it's going to be 18 months before anyone sees one," Kaplan said of the PSP. "A lot can happen in 18 months."


Does that just sound like a huge tease to anyone else?
You know what Sony has done to me?  Gotten me Hyped about the new GAMEBOY not their PSP.




That's Nintendo greatest problem. They do not generate hype! They sit on everything fro ever and ever until the last minute, but by that time, everyone is already hyped for the competetors prodouct. While I certainly do antitcpate the next gameboy, I anticipate it with a sense of nervousness, that it may be another N64, rather with a sense of excitement. That's not good.

Well, I think there is one thing we can all agree on:

Sony's anouncement is about a year early. While I disagree with some people
who belive that Sony threw this together overnight, I also don't think that
Sony has a working protype yet either.

Ok, now. Sony obviously has a very good idea of what the final system will
be. They know exaclty what the screen will be like. They know what type of
porcessor they will use, they know what 3d techonologies they will emply.
They know what the sound system will be capable of. They have designed an
all new media, which is no doubt been optimized for this very application.
The know that it will have a USB 2.0 port, and a memory stick interface. The
know basically everything short of details, like clock speed.

Now, it should be clear to everyone, that based on the above, and the
rumours that have been going around for nearly a year, that Sony has been
working on this for a long time. While it would seem they have not yet
finalized the physical design of the unit, nor the control scheme, they
definitly know where they are going with it.

That's said, they anounced a product a year and a half before they expect to
release it, which serves only one purpose, as others have said, to take the
steam out of Nintendos GBA sales, and create a buzz. I do not know if they
will succeed with the former, but they certainly have accomlished the
latter. I, as a devout Gameboy fan, can stop thinking about the PSP and the
possibilities in entails. The PSP is the talk of e3, and has spawned for
than a dozen pages long threads on this forum alone. Every major news media
outlet covered the story. As Sony continue to throw a bone now an then
throughout the months ahead, people will become more and more hyped and
excited about the product. Sony will have carved out a user base, as with
the PS2, before the product even hits the market. Watch and see.

Now, I wonder what the market it that Sony is trying to reach. If you ask
me, it is actyally not the gameboy market. In fact, I do not belive Sony is
planning to go after the traidtional handheld market at all, sony is
planning to chnage what the handheld market is. Sony is certainly not
planning another gameboy clone, like the wonderswan, or the neo geo pocket.
Sony is planing something all new. Sony is planning to chnage the way we
think about portable games, and revolutionize the portable market, a market
that in my mind, has been stagenent for a LOOOOONG time. Like it or not,
Sony are the real innovators in the games industry. nintendo likes to think
they are, but as much as I love Nintendo, I have to admit that Nintendo
would rather not innovate, short of making quirky games that appeal to a few
out of many. Remeber back to 1994 when we first heard whisper of a Nintendo
CD add on for SNES? Remeber how that played out with Nintendo hemming and
hwaing, and eventually abandoning the project altogether, and returning to
carts, this, as the entire PC industry was embracing CD rom, and sega and
sony were leading the way in the console realm.

Nintendo, like it's hardcore fans, hate change. They fight against it, and
even turn thier noses up at people who embrace it. Portable games should be
short, and simple they say, while at the same time every GBA game review
under the sun closes with "if we had one complaint, it is that the game is
too short". I want my 2d, 3d has no place on a handheld! Well, I have news
for you, I like 2d games too. Some games just work better in 2d, like
castlevania, for instance, or strategy games, and so on. But who can argue
that the wind waker is a lot more fun that Link to the past?

The Gameboy's days are not numbered. Yet. But Nintendo does have some
choices to make. They can do what they have always done, or they can grow
with the times, and that includes gorwing in the portable market, which is
about the chnage big time. They cannot underestimate the imapct that Sony
will have on the handheld market. And they cannot count on thier core
audience od 10-13 year olds either, because this is the group that is the
MOST suseptable to hype, and the most lustful over the "most powerful"
system.





Offline mouse_clicker

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Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #56 on: May 15, 2003, 01:57:27 PM »
"That's Nintendo greatest problem. They do not generate hype!"

18 months is a bit early to start hype- I'll bet you even the PSP will be absent from most people's minds in a few months. I agree Nintendo should starting working the hype machine earlier than they usually do, but this is far too early to pass judgement.
"You know you're being too serious when Mouse tells you to lighten up... ^_^"<BR>-Bill

Offline ActorJ

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Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #57 on: May 15, 2003, 02:17:26 PM »
maybe. But i would bet that we will see sony keep the PSP on peoples minds througout the next few months, stringing peple along bit by bit.

When I said Nintendo doesn't hype, I don't just mean now. They NEVER hype. Not even with the gamecube. They stupidly marketed the performance of the GameCube using real world number. Very honourable of them sure, but helpful to them? not in the least. the average system buyer doesnt know that the Xbox can actually do 100,000 polygons per second only if the game has no sound, no UI, no textures, and no effects. That doesn't matter to them. All they see, is Xbox 100,000, GC 12,000.

Hmm.

Nintendo has to play the game.

Offline mouse_clicker

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Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2003, 02:49:33 PM »
Yeah, Nintendo does need to advertise more, that's a fact, but that doesn't pertain to the situation at hand if you didn't mean they should be hyping now.

And even Sony won't advertise the PSP 18 months before release, if it will indeed be released at the end of 2004 (where did you guys hear that?). I doubt we'll see anything about the PSP in the public eye util at least next summer at the very earliest.

And people, please realize that simply making a really powerful handheld is not a surefire way to gain success in the industry- it doesn't even work well in the console industry (look at the N64's sales compared to the PSX's, or Gamecube and XBox sales compared to the PS2's). It seems a lot of people think Nintendo's in trouble soley because of a spec sheet Sony's released.
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Offline oohhboy

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RE: Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2003, 06:09:31 PM »
The market has not been stagnet. You need to wait for the technology to catch up so you can implement it. Could you seriously imagine 2 years ago whether such a hand held would be fesiable without carrying a car battery? Power saving, cool chipsets are not on the cutting edge of th RnD dollar. Speed and size and heat is. If ROM technology really can compete with disc based sysytems on the handheld, then say go for it. If within 2 years you can get close to 2 gigs on a ROM at comparable prices like within $1/$.50 of discs, good. We already know that Nintendo has invested in technology that quadrupues(?) the amount of space on a ROM. The thing is why have two slots when you can have one? Phyiscally it can be done. It sure beats having two lots, we are talking about a handheld here people. Not the next SNES import adapter.
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Offline ActorJ

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Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #60 on: May 15, 2003, 08:37:10 PM »
I'm sorry, but quadrupling the space on a rom is not enough. That STILL only gives us 130mb tops. Yeah, that is a lot more than what we have today, but if you honeslty belive that that will be as cheap to manufacture as an optical dics, you are seriously dreaming. Fruther to that, to go up against an optical media with 1.8gb of space from a marketing standpoint is asking for trouble.

Offline oohhboy

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RE: Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #61 on: May 16, 2003, 02:16:06 AM »
What are you on actor. Current average size is 128Mb. The larges for a N64 ROM is 512Mb. There is no "limit" as to how big it is, it's a soft-limit. Course if you were to quad existing tech(1999), you still only get 256MB. The reference to one slot is in another thread where I state that you can have mem and the disc in a cartliage all in the one unit and use the old connector to write to mem and play old games.
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Offline NWR_Lindy

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Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #62 on: May 16, 2003, 09:04:36 AM »
I'm with ActorJ on this one.  There's no way that Nintendo can put a ROM-based GameBoy up against a disc-based PSP and convince the public that their system is cutting-edge.  It's just not going to happen...the public is too smart (or too ignorant, depending on how you look at it).

People used to say "It's all about the games", but it's really coolness factor first, the games second,  that sells a system.  What's the first thing that people say about the GBA SP?  "That looks SO cool!"  They don't say, "That looks like it plays GREAT games!"

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Offline ActorJ

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RE: Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #63 on: May 16, 2003, 09:18:46 AM »
1 megabyte =  8 megabits.

N64 roms are not up to 512mb, they are up to 512mbits, which is 64megabytes.

GBA roms are up to 256mbits, not 265mbytes. 256mbits is 32mbytes.

It is not a soft limit, as GBA can only address a block of 32mbytes or smaller. flash carts that have more than 256mbits actually use two banks of 256mbits to get around that problem.

Even with Quad tech, that means the largest a rom size can be is around 128mbytes. Which is the same number I gave above, except i rounded it off to 130. I accept your apoligy for talking out of you ***.

128mebytes, although fairly sizable, is nowhere even close to 1.8gb. it only a tiny fraction of that space. Certainly not enogh for  cd quality soundtrack, et al.

But the big issue is the expense. Like I say, developers do everything they can to squeeze there game into the smallest cartridge they can. nearly all GBA games come on 8mbyte cartidges, even though 16mb, and 32, mb carts are availble. WHY? Cost. Rom memory is expensive. Very expensive. you start getting into the larger sizes, let along quad tech sizes, and you are looking at a cost of 10-20 dollars just for the cartridge.
That is the reason why N64 games were so insanely expensive next to Playstation games, the one and only reason. Also the same reaosn why N64 never saw a greates hits style re-release program, it just was not cost effective. The profit margin on N64 games was so low, that it was almost not worht it for third parties from a busuiness standpoint.  Ghis is why we saw great game coming from Nintendo, while nearly everything from third parties was shovelware. The same issue is happing with the GBA, although it is less apparent because Nintendo has since lowered is license fees. But we still only see high quality games from the big players like Konami and Capcom, and sega and Nintendo itself, and shovelware crap from everyone else.


Roms cost money, no matter which way to slice it. And this is the reason why it is time to give them up.

I mean, in a perfect worl our PC's would not have to have hard drives, we could just put 40gigs of ram in there. But none of us want to pay 10,000 dollars for a PC.


The historic problems with CD based media  are nearly irradicated. No longer are load time a huge problem, (most GC games have close to Zero load times, eh?), the newset drives are incredibly energy efficient too.




Offline NWR_Lindy

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Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #64 on: May 16, 2003, 11:04:04 AM »
Yeah, ROMs suck.

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Offline Jollus

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RE: Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #65 on: May 16, 2003, 11:35:24 AM »
I realize that it is now a forgoten tech, but a few years ago there was a bunch of hype about these tiny little discs that they were going to use in MP3 players.  The tech was called DataPlay, and it was only about as big as a quarter.  I think they came in 256meg, 512meg, and maybe 1gig sizes.  It took them to long to get it to market and HD Mp3 players came out first.  So it just kinda died.  I think there was only one or two players that supported it.

That would be a killer medium for a handheld game system though.  Just make sure that there is hardware support for mp3 decoding or some other good audio compression, that way you don't have the whole disc full of music.

Offline ActorJ

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RE: Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #66 on: May 16, 2003, 06:45:11 PM »
yep. lots of options for nintendo. just not carts again, dammit.

Offline oohhboy

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RE: Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #67 on: May 16, 2003, 06:56:07 PM »
You noticed the little b's and the big B's? Damn man... I have never heard of that hard limit of how much the GBA can access. Even if true, you have already given a solution to that problem. Also you used a little b meaning bit not Bytes. Be carefull with your b's and B's will you. It makes a world of difference. Also don't round like that. That is just bad habit.

As for small load times for GC games, it's up to the developer. You have not played Turok yet have you?
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Offline ActorJ

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RE: Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #68 on: May 16, 2003, 09:06:50 PM »
no, have not played turok. ick.

Of course it is up to the developer, but that vast majority of GC games have minimal load times, or velverly disguised load times.

Solution to that problem? Hardly. Don't be so stubborn. Roms for the forseeable future will continue to be dramatically more expensive than optical media, especially in large sizes, such as 256mbit and higher. There is no way aroudn that. none.

 

Offline oohhboy

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RE: Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #69 on: May 17, 2003, 05:49:31 AM »
Though unrelated to current debate. Funny that optical disc media could one day move on to mem sticks like those found in Star Trek? That would lead back to a form of the cartliage, but that is just me thinking.

Ok, ROMs arn't usable for next gen. Big IF here, just speculating. Nintendo say pulls something out of the hat? say a 1.8 GB ROM close to the same price. Slightly higher? competetivly so. Not saying it will happen. Just saying IF. Would it matter anymore?

Another thing in the air. The mem stick. Why have one? Why not have a build in chip with the disc to save games? The chip coul also double as game code holder for faster loading times.
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Offline ActorJ

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RE: Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #70 on: May 17, 2003, 09:36:04 AM »
well, if you built something into the disc-cartridge to save games, then not only do you require a more comlicated drive, because you would need some way to read the chip as well as the media itself, you reintorduice something that makes roms more expensive in the first place, a EEPROM. Did you happen to notice how mnay publishers cheaped out and went with password save early on? Furthermore, if it was takena stepp further, as you suggest, and used as a game code holder, or a cache, then it would need to be fairly large, again cancelling out the cost savings over a rom. It would be pointless too, because you could simply put the cache memory inside the system, and then it can be used by all game, instead of giving each game its own, which is really quite loony....

PLus, the memory stick is very flexible. Not only can it be used to save games, but if the unit has extra features, ala PS2, and we know it will, you could load MP3s onto the mem stick, or any other various things sony has thought of that we cant yet imagine.

Addtionally, a memory stick for save games would mean that it would be easy to copy the save files to your PC, and keep them safe. That way you don't have to keep buying memory sticks either, as you fill them up.

 

Offline Ace

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Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #71 on: May 17, 2003, 10:51:04 AM »
I'm not sure what type of media this is classified under, but Nintendo could use these for their next game boy.  Btw, does anyone know if Constellation 3D is still around?

Edit: I checked Nasdaq and it turns out the company went bankrupt.  Does that mean the technology is up for grabs? And if not who owns it?  They could use this same type of media for the next home console or even license it out to movie companies.  But I highly doubt the last part.  That's not NIntendo's style

Edit 2: This same kind of technology can also be used on the next GC.  On the clear discs they use, the information is layered which is why it can hold so much information.  They state that a 20 layer disc can hold 95GB and when using a blue lazer, a terabyte is possible.  That's a lot of space.  That info can be found here
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Offline PIAC

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RE: Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #72 on: May 17, 2003, 02:24:48 PM »
that would be a very feaseable idea for the next gameboy...
if backwards compatability is that important, keep your gba/sp, i wont be that disapointed, and i think pretty much everyone in the world has owned a gameboy of some description at some time, so not like there would be a shortige of gb's if you wanted to relive some nostalgic fun.

Offline oohhboy

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RE: Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #73 on: May 17, 2003, 11:55:41 PM »
Not inside the GB. Just the disc. You see, the current gameboy has a cartiage slot right? So you keep the slot but it also doubles as the interface for the chip, GBA games and a disc cartliage holder so you don't need a lid. And no I don't think you would use so thing as silly as EEPROM. Why not uses Mag RAM or FE RAM to save? Nice and cheap, non-volititle to 10 years and speed is not an issuse as you are only saving your game. Another thing, what if you don't have a computer? You would force customers to buy more sticks/delete games for a handheld. Ok for a console as your not going anywhere with it. As for that game code cache thing, just throwing ideas around.

EDIT: Had look at that link and DAMN!###! Who needs discs! Throws everything said out the window! and the tech is 2000, so more that likely to be usable TODAY! The hell with BLUERAY. But, big but, the company seems to have droped off the radar. But the tech is there. Who has it now?
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Offline EggyToast

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RE: Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On
« Reply #74 on: May 18, 2003, 12:36:32 PM »
Nintendo has already basically announced what they're goign to use for the next GB:

Here's a link to N-philes (I only found it because I remember posting in the thread when it came out.  I read it on numerous sites, though, and it's not "faked"):
http://forums.n-philes.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8497

Nintendo has already invested a LOT of money in high-density, low-cost media.  It's the same media type that Ace mentioned above -- it's stacked vertically, to keep down on size as well as maximize space.

Here's a link to Matrix Semiconductor's description of their main product (the one Nintendo would use):
http://www.matrixsemi.com/industry.shtml?8

They're one of the few companies who have patented a process for making the things at a very low cost with a high enough volume to satisfy manufacturing needs.

And, as is well known, non-moving parts will always last longer than moving parts (spinning discs).

So none of this "memory stick is for game saves" crap; looks like Nintendo is sticking with the cool factor and will probably simply issue a small cardslot for entire games in the next GB iteration.  "memory sticks for entire games!"  The argument could easily be "Sure, you could buy an oversized system with oversized discs that produce a lot of noise from the disc spinning up, or you could buy a small, practical system with entire games on one tiny, quiet card."

And do you know how much even Sony's memory stick costs?  They're still charging $70 for the 64mb "magicgate" version, which is designed for smaller devices.  Sure, it's a lot of space, but they don't make them in smaller sizes anymore. "hmm, 2 games, or 1 memory stick to save the games..."