Author Topic: Aonuma: Ocarina of Time "Not Very Good" Nowadays  (Read 11265 times)

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Offline Mop it up

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Re: Aonuma: Ocarina of Time
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2009, 07:22:14 PM »
@MegaByte - Actually it's all the FMV that required disc space, not the textures.
Okay, it was FMV that made it require FOUR discs, but there's no way the textures from that game could have fit on even the largest N64 cart.
The largest one that was actually made, probably not, even though Resident Evil 2 was pretty impressively managed on a 64MB cartridge. The actual size of a cartridge was limited to what a company was willing to spend.

Though I think the issue would be more with the system itself. It has a small limit on the number of pixels which a single texture can contain, and I believe the PlayStation has a larger limit. This is why Nintendo 64 games are labeled as "blurry" because usually textures are heavily stretched onto large objects. Clever programmers used multiple textures to create larger textures in order for games to look more smooth. I still prefer the look over the PlayStation's pixelization.

At least, I think that's how that works. I try to learn about the technical aspects of the Nintendo 64 but some of it doesn't make sense to me.

Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Aonuma: Ocarina of Time \
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2009, 07:46:43 PM »
Quote
Though I think the issue would be more with the system itself. It has a small limit on the number of pixels which a single texture can contain, and I believe the PlayStation has a larger limit. This is why Nintendo 64 games are labeled as "blurry" because usually textures are heavily stretched onto large objects. Clever programmers used multiple textures to create larger textures in order for games to look more smooth. I still prefer the look over the PlayStation's pixelization.

To me this is like comparing green poop to brown.

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Re: Aonuma: Ocarina of Time
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2009, 07:57:10 PM »
You gotta taste both.
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Re: Aonuma: Ocarina of Time
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2009, 08:10:44 PM »
The largest one that was actually made, probably not, even though Resident Evil 2 was pretty impressively managed on a 64MB cartridge. The actual size of a cartridge was limited to what a company was willing to spend.
And the consumer who isn't going to pay a huge premium.  ROMs are way more expensive than CD-ROM.  And probably physical cartridge space to jam those chips in.

It has a small limit on the number of pixels which a single texture can contain, and I believe the PlayStation has a larger limit. This is why Nintendo 64 games are labeled as "blurry" because usually textures are heavily stretched onto large objects. Clever programmers used multiple textures to create larger textures in order for games to look more smooth. I still prefer the look over the PlayStation's pixelization.
You're right; the N64 did have a small texture cache.  But the blurriness was also because the N64 had interpolation and the PlayStation (and annoying, the DS) didn't.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2009, 08:16:12 PM by MegaByte »
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: Aonuma: Ocarina of Time
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2009, 02:02:27 AM »
Is it just me or does this seem like stating the obvious? Of course Ocarina of Time isn't very good from a technical standpoint when you compare it to the games of today, but then again, what game is? Sure, if people played Twilight Princess before Ocarina of Time, they probably wouldn't like it as much. But I'll bet they'd still play through the game, because it is entirely playable today. There wasn't anything technically wrong with it when it was first released, so there isn't anything technically wrong with it now.

Aonuma is delusional if he thinks he can create something with as big change as Ocarina of Time, sorry to be so blunt. Going from 2D to 3D was a huge change in and of itself, and if you think about it, the game really isn't much more than the 2D Zelda games in 3D. If it had a top-down perspective then I'll bet almost all of the game would still be playable. But switching to 3D added a new perspective to the old which made it new and exciting once again. A switch like that happens only once in a lifetime, we're never again going to experience anything that is such a dramatic change.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 06:16:53 PM by Mop_it_up »

Offline mac<censored>

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Re: Aonuma: Ocarina of Time
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2009, 02:30:26 AM »
Sure, if people played Twilight Princess before Ocarina of Time, they probably wouldn't like it as much. But I'll bet they'd still play through the game, because it is entirely playable today.

Oddly enough, I actually did play OoT after TP.  I got the bonus GC port of OoT with WW, but had never played it (I never had it for the N64 at all); after I finished TP, I wanted more Zelda Action, so just popped OoT in right away.

My first reaction, as you might expect, was "yuck!" but that feeling pretty quickly faded and I enjoyed the game very much.

I don't agree that nothing can equal the 2d-3d change -- you even point out yourself how similar in feel the 2d and 3d games are, and I think there are many changes that could dramatically alter that while still retaining other elements of the Zelda formula.

Offline Mop it up

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Re: Aonuma: Ocarina of Time
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2009, 02:37:00 AM »
I don't agree that nothing can equal the 2d-3d change -- you even point out yourself how similar in feel the 2d and 3d games are, and I think there are many changes that could dramatically alter that while still retaining other elements of the Zelda formula.
Well, I meant that more from a design standpoint. All they had to do was take their 2D game concepts and move them to 3D. Games like Super Mario 64, Zelda OoT, Metroid Prime, etc. are all like this. Finding something unique and interesting without any major change in hardware is going to be very difficult, and I just can't imagine anything having that same "wow" factor as Ocarina of Time did, at least for me.

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Re: Aonuma: Ocarina of Time \
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2009, 03:35:29 AM »
I also think that there are bigger changes that could happen to Zelda than 2D to 3D because OoT is a glorified 3D version of Link to the Past.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: Aonuma: Ocarina of Time \
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2009, 10:41:26 PM »
Care to elaborate on what such a change might be?
Saying that Ocarina of Time is Link to The Past in 3D is oversimplifying it. I'm sure this next Zelda could also be called Twilight Princess with better sword control, or whatever other gimmicks they'll come up with.

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Re: Aonuma: Ocarina of Time
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2009, 11:37:13 PM »
This big change will probably be something like Link having wings throughout the entire game.

I'm not expecting anything drastic...I feel like Zelda is Nintendo's Dragon Quest now.  God forbid the formula is changed or the faithful will end up rioting.
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Offline Peachylala

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Re: Aonuma: Ocarina of Time
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2009, 12:55:09 AM »
This big change will probably be something like Link having wings throughout the entire game.

I'm not expecting anything drastic...I feel like Zelda is Nintendo's Dragon Quest now.  God forbid the formula is changed or the faithful will end up rioting.
Ironic that those same riot freaks caused Twilight Princess to look and play the way it did.

I still stand on the thought that Wind Waker would've kicked massive amounts of ass if Nintendo gave EAD more time. I love Celda (lol c wat i did thr?), it's a shame it's stuck to just portable titles.
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Offline stevey

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Re: Aonuma: Ocarina of Time
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2009, 01:13:31 AM »
By insulting OoT, Aonuma by extension insult Malon! VENDETTA! :ph:

Sure, OoT is fugly by today's standers and there aren't millions of enemies attacking at once, but that doesn't make it less fun for anyone who playing it for the first time now or then. Now if you where to replay it for the ten-thousandth time it would start to lose it's fun game play. Zelda games are about adventure and discovery. If you seen and did it all before then there is not much more you can do (without multiplayer). The problem with Zelda games is that the items and puzzles are stagnant (Lock on and use latest item to solve the puzzle) and the over-worlds hasn't changed at all (Open nothingness>>Town>>Dungeon>>Open nothingness). Throwing away nearly all the old items/puzzles and reinventing the over-world would complete bring a much needed new experience to the Zelda series. Show me something I've never seen in the same style as Zelda (adventure and discovery), not the last Zelda with synonyms replacing the same parts of the old games or a rip off the competitors best selling games, and the fan will love it. That is how you reinvent Zelda Nintendo. Changing how you push a block onto switch from a D-pad to thumb stick to Wiimote to the motion plus doesn't change the fact that you are still just pushing a block onto a switch. That's not innovation, it's just repetition of the same thing.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 01:26:30 AM by stevey »
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Offline Luigi Dude

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Re: Aonuma: Ocarina of Time
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2009, 03:15:03 AM »

Ironic that those same riot freaks caused Twilight Princess to look and play the way it did.


This is why Aonuma's recent comments make me very excited.  Back when Twilight Princess was in development, all he did was praise Ocarina of Time and talked about how Twilight Princess would be just like it in order to please the Ocarina fanboys who hated Majora's Mask and Wind Waker.  But now he's actually criticizing parts of the game and he sounds kind of annoyed with the Ocarina fanboys, it looks like Aonuma really wants to do something different with the series.

Not to mention the long development cycle makes it obvious something big is going to happen.  The development of this new Wii Zelda started sometime around the end of 2006/early 2007.  The earliest this new game could come out is the end of 2010 which means this game will have around 4 year development lifespan at least.  In comparison, Ocarina of Time started development sometime in 1995 and came out at the end of 1998.  Majora's Mask started development at the end of 1998 and first came out May 2000 in Japan.  Wind Waker started development around the end of 2000/early 2001 and first came out December 2002 in Japan.  Twilight Princess started development early 2004 and came out at the end of 2006.

So yeah, if the new game was going to be like the other 3d Zelda's it would have come out by now.  The fact that the game is in development for so long show that Nintendo is quite serious about doing something different this time.
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Offline Plugabugz

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Re: Aonuma: Ocarina of Time
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2009, 09:38:17 AM »

Ironic that those same riot freaks caused Twilight Princess to look and play the way it did.


This is why Aonuma's recent comments make me very excited.  Back when Twilight Princess was in development, all he did was praise Ocarina of Time and talked about how Twilight Princess would be just like it in order to please the Ocarina fanboys who hated Majora's Mask and Wind Waker.  But now he's actually criticizing parts of the game and he sounds kind of annoyed with the Ocarina fanboys, it looks like Aonuma really wants to do something different with the series.

Not to mention the long development cycle makes it obvious something big is going to happen.  The development of this new Wii Zelda started sometime around the end of 2006/early 2007.  The earliest this new game could come out is the end of 2010 which means this game will have around 4 year development lifespan at least.  In comparison, Ocarina of Time started development sometime in 1995 and came out at the end of 1998.  Majora's Mask started development at the end of 1998 and first came out May 2000 in Japan.  Wind Waker started development around the end of 2000/early 2001 and first came out December 2002 in Japan.  Twilight Princess started development early 2004 and came out at the end of 2006.

So yeah, if the new game was going to be like the other 3d Zelda's it would have come out by now.  The fact that the game is in development for so long show that Nintendo is quite serious about doing something different this time.

Long development cycles can potentially mean a lot of things. Look at Metroid Prime: the whole thing was scrapped initially meaning it took longer. The end result was definitely worth the scrappage but at the same time other games like Duke Nukem Forever+1, for instance, which just nothing happened over and over.

The long cycle of nothing to date can implies to me that they started from scratch from what they had before or are redoing something significant to justify the long wait.

Offline Dropkik

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Re: Aonuma: Ocarina of Time
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2009, 11:31:05 AM »
Wind Waker is probably my favorite Zelda, but I'd say Majora's Mask is better then Ocarina.  The plot is better, the world and characters were more interesting, and it had some genuinely powerful moments.  Majora is a game that deserves a whole episode of RFN devoted to it.
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Offline Peachylala

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Re: Aonuma: Ocarina of Time \
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2009, 12:38:51 PM »
I second that.
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Re: Aonuma: Ocarina of Time
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2009, 07:04:08 PM »
I wouldn't toss Duke Nukem Forever out there as any sort of example of anything regarding game development, good or bad.  In order to be used as an example of development cycle, the development cycle has to actually end, and the game has to ship.  DNF was a disaster from start to...well, I would say finish, but that didn't happen.

I really need to finish Majora's Mask.  That game lost me half-way, it just became too obscure and cumbersome to play.  I really felt like it required a strategy guide to play through with its seemingly completely random time-based puzzles; I pretty much hated it.  If you weren't in the right place at the right time looking at the right thing, you'd be completely lost.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Aonuma: Ocarina of Time
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2009, 09:12:32 PM »
None of it's random.  Gotta find clues, as with any Zelda made after Mario Kart 64.
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Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: Aonuma: Ocarina of Time
« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2009, 09:30:40 PM »
@MegaByte - Actually it's all the FMV that required disc space, not the textures.
Okay, it was FMV that made it require FOUR discs, but there's no way the textures from that game could have fit on even the largest N64 cart.

FF7 doesn't even use many textures; most of the polygonal models are garoud (flat) shaded. There are some exceptions in the battle scenes, though. The rendered backgrounds are just compressed JPEGs (that look quite terrible now).
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Offline Peachylala

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Re: Aonuma: Ocarina of Time \
« Reply #44 on: November 29, 2009, 09:44:27 PM »
I will second that. Playing the game on a flat screen makes the game look hilariously bad, and the awful translation is just the topping on the cake.


None of it's random.  Gotta find clues, as with any Zelda made after Mario Kart 64.
Exploration is made easier in Majora's Mask by using the Reverse Song of Time.





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Re: Aonuma: Ocarina of Time
« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2009, 10:16:38 PM »
I will second that. Playing the game on a flat screen makes the game look hilariously bad, and the awful translation is just the topping on the cake.


None of it's random.  Gotta find clues, as with any Zelda made after Mario Kart 64.
Exploration is made easier in Majora's Mask by using the Reverse Song of Time.







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Re: Aonuma: Ocarina of Time \
« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2009, 10:25:30 PM »
Pro seems like the kind of guy who would already know that.
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