Author Topic: I've figured out Nintendo'd 3rd Party Problem  (Read 5476 times)

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Offline Strell

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I've figured out Nintendo'd 3rd Party Problem
« on: May 20, 2003, 10:18:12 AM »
Note: This is all speculation, it's pretty simple theory that has been hit on in several topics, so if it gets closed, feh, no big deal.  I'm going to try and keep it short and sweet and not too well-written, because I'm kind of tired of being on the computer for the day.

I realized what the problem is with Nintendo and getting third party games on the system.  It's Nintendo fault themselves, in terms of the games on their system.  The problem is that Nitnendo released their own first and second party "must have" games at least one a month (at least), and quite frankly, the average gamer doesn't have enough money to pick all these games AND third party games.  I dunno about anyone else, but I'm lucky to get one new game a month, if that.  I mean, what was probably the last game a lot of GC owners got?  Zelda.  And before that?  Metroid.  And before that?  Mario.  Animal Crossing, Eternal Darkness, Pikmin....the list goes on and on.  The point is that there's always a first or second party title worth owning at all times, including future games - MGS, F Zero, etc.  

There's always some game worth owning from Nintendo.  Of course there are people that won't buy Nintendo's games, but this seems like the minority of GC owners.  Most people have a GC to get Nintendo's games, just as people own a PS2 to get GTA or an Xbox to get Halo.  It's simple exclusitivity.

So when a generic gamer decides on what game to buy, they can either get an AAA title from Nintendo or a generic port from some other company.  Zelda or Freekstyle?  Give me a break.  

So Nintendo can be assured that their games will almost always reach the million mark.

And therein lies the problem.  

Third parties are whining that they can't sell their games on the Gamecube.  ANd why is this?  Because NIntendo beats them at their own game.  Midway wants to make a crappy port of some stupid extreme bike sports game, and they wonder why they can't sell well?  It's like choosing between McNuggets versus filet mignon steak.  Water versus champagne.  The only difference HERE, though, is that the McNuggets and the steak cost the same.  

Honestly.  If you're going to put yourself in direct competition with a thousand other developers, and you're only going to commit to your own proect 10%, and you expect it to SELL?  Are you kidding me?  You couldn't make a console specific game good, what makes you think you can code a port better?

I'm sick and tired of people using this argument against Nintendo.  Miyamoto needs to have a press conference where he says, plainly, "It's not my fault that you suck."  It also doesn't help that we get GOOD third party games also, with Capcom's five, Camelot, Treasure, etc.  So there's another whole WORLD of developers you've got to beat.  And the problem with this is that it takes a lot of polish and good gameplay to overcome such obstacles, and this is something the third parties don't want to do because it would cut into their profits.  Killer 7, Viewtiful Joe?  Versus..what, Backyard Soccer?  If you don't see the logic here, then just give up.

Now I will agree that Nintendo isn't helping the situation.  All the same companies that whine about sales on the Gamecube ARE competing in the same manner with the PS2 and Xbox.  They still have to trump whatever first and second party games Sony and Microsoft will put out, as well as other third parties.  So their facing the same competition minus Nintendo's games, which we've already established create a MASSIVE chasm that they seeminlgy can't overcome.  But why would the games sell better on PS2 and Xbox?  Well, PS2 has a huge userbase, and it's proven that people in ANY market will buy crap, no matter what.  (This is, of course, how Microsoft stays in business, har har.)  So third party games will just naturally sell better there.  Xbox is harder to debate.  Supposedly has a smaller userbase than the GC and "hardcore gamers."  Yea, by that you mean PC gamers, the same people who can play Counter Strike all day and proclaim it the best game ever.  So NATURALLY crummy third party games will sell better there too.

This really only leaves one more factor to discuss - advertising.  I see Sony and Microsoft ads all the time on TV, magazines, the news, etc.  Everywhere.  And it's not just that, it's that they are advertising third party games also.  We all know Nintendo has a massive advertising problem with their OWN software.  But they pretty much refuse to advertise third party games, telling them that it's their OWN game, THEY do the advertising.  (Additionally, this is how they expect online gaming to pan out.)   That's Nintendo logic and understanding with advertising - you made the game, you advertise it.  

So I have to at least acknowledge that the third parties have a significant and valid excuse here, and it's really apparent when Nintendo doesn't advertise games like Splinter Cell, which is supposed to be really good (I don't know, I haven't played it).  Sony, of course, had a pretty massive blitz for it, relaunching the commercial and making it KNOWN that there were enhancements to the game.  Nintendo, however, just stuck the GC logo at the end and nothing else.  Not even a "also on Gamecube."

So it boils down to this:  Third parties whine that they don't sell well, so they cut back on GC support.  This is caused by a few factors: Nintendo's own stellar games, excellent third party games to contend with, making no effort to port well or even make a DECENT console-specific game, and the advertising problem.

In short what it amounts to is that Nintendo is always going to have less third party support because, well, they simply make games that drive away the competition.  Nintendo is out for a profit, they want their games to sell.  They don't want people to see some third party's game on tv and PAY for it, they'd rather blitz their own games and maximize their own income.  That might be a hard pill to swallow, but it's pretty dead-on and true.  I hate myself for saying it, but let's not sugarcoat the truth - Nintendo makes the biggest profits.  They don't do it underhandedly, they do it with excellent games.  But they will continually alienate third parties because of their own innate excellence.

Bottom line: Nintendo's games will always sell because they rock, and this will always put third parties in the shadow of their greatness.  Since the gaming industry is SO competitive these days, this is going to cause disdain between the companies, and they will simply cut their losses and pull out support for Nintendo.  Sad but true.  Combined with Nintendo's refusal to advertise third parties and the fact that Sony and Microsoft can offer better incentives (due to the fact that they are not JUST video game companies), it's only going to continue.  The only way Nintendo could combat this problem would be to A) make worse games, B) advertise third parties, C) be more competitive with Sony and Microsoft on the publishing/licensing level, and/or D) spend money to encourage more third parties to bring their games over.

But you know what?  Screw them.  I'd rather see Nintendo put their money towards second parties and expanding themselves.  Out of the 11 games I own, 2 are third party.  And that suits me just fine.  

-Strell

 
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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I've figured out Nintendo'd 3rd Party Problem
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2003, 10:32:54 AM »
*thumbs up*

The only 3rd party games I have are Rogue Leader, Super Monkey Ball, Beach Spikers (multiplayer you CANNOT live without!), both Resi's, and Burnout 2.
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Offline The Omen

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I've figured out Nintendo'd 3rd Party Problem
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2003, 10:39:52 AM »
I agree for the most part.  There is one thing Nintendo may be able to do, and thats collaborate with the 3rd parties, which they have started doing this generation.  If Nintendo is involved in any way, it'll automatically sell better.   Like Geist, for instance.  Knowing they are involved makes it much more appealing to me, simply because you know it won't be a rushed piece of crap.
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Offline Hostile Creation

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I've figured out Nintendo'd 3rd Party Problem
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2003, 12:26:20 PM »
Exactly.  You've hit the problem on the head.  Or whatever.

3rd party?  I have. . . um. . . Gauntlet: Dark Legacy, and that was only fun until I beat it (in less than a week.  Some friends came over and we played seven hours in one day, four players, so that basically did it in.  Was fun, though).  All the rest are made by Nintendo, or had Nintendo helping make them/watching them carefully.
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Offline Ninja X

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I've figured out Nintendo'd 3rd Party Problem
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2003, 01:05:43 PM »
Interesting.

In my opinion, Nintendo should focus on more original games rather than franchises.  It could start new franchises new-generation gamers can relate to like GTA and it gives third-parties a chance to sell more copies of their software, which would benefit Nintendo as well.  

As for why Nintendo needs third-parties...

Nintendo needs them because these third-parties have big franchises that sell well, such as Final Fantasy and Metal Gear Solid, and attracts gamers, especially older gamers which Nintendo needs.
Not only that, but Nintendo's games are not selling up to expectations.  Nintendo just cannot keep relying on their franchises, and it seems sales are showing that.  I think that is the main reason why Nintendo is contending with a newcomer for second-place, which is bad for a company who is reputed to have helped pioneered videogames into the multi-billion dollar industry of today.  
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Offline John Squire

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I've figured out Nintendo'd 3rd Party Problem
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2003, 01:10:40 PM »
I think your first reason is the biggest.  People bought the GC for Nintendo games.  They just don't buy third party games (there are exceptions).  Monkey Ball 1 & 2, Sonic games, Resident Evil games, Rogue Squadron.. what else has sold well?  It seems third party games have to either a launch title, f'ing amazing, or a huge franchise in order to sell on the GC.  This is a big difference compared to the N64 where many third party games sold more than PSX games did.  True, the N64 had less games, but there has to be more to it than that.  

So, what's different between the N64 and the GC?  Well, Nintendo had a better rep going into the N64 generation and it had a huge userbase from the start thanks to Mario 64.  However, it was also seen as the multiplayer console.  Goldeneye brought in a lot of ppl who may not necessarily be interested in Nintendo type games, but rather, they are interested in FPS and Western developed games.  So, many ppl who were into FPS, multiplayer, and western games bought the N64 (because of Goldeneye).  Since the userbase had a large amount of these ppl, the kind of the games that cater to them (mostly third party) flew off the shelves.  

Now, fast forward to this generation.  Halo is the new Goldeneye.  These same ppl who bought an N64 for Goldeneye are buying the Xbox for Halo.  Western developers are flocking to MS's machine.  Xbox is obviously seen as the western, fps, and possibly multiplayer console.  It also is the most powerful system (another trump that the N64 had).  So Nintendo has lost the people who bought N64 third party games while still retaining the fans of their own software.  Remember, it's mainly western developers that are whining because 1. their games sold well on the N64; and 2. they aren't selling on the GC.  There actually wasn't much Japanese support for the N64 (if I remember correctly); it was THE western console of the time.      

Frankly, I can't see any way Nintendo can fix this for the current generation.  It's too late.  The PS2 is the mainstream console.  The Xbox is the western console.  The Gamecube is the Nintendo console.  


Offline joeamis

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I've figured out Nintendo'd 3rd Party Problem
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2003, 04:33:55 PM »
rightfully said
i.e. you're absolutely correct.

I see the same thing next generation that's happened this generation
so the figures will again be:
1  PS 3
2  Xbox 2
3  GC 2

note: I own PS2 and GC, and HATE M$!

.

Offline KDR_11k

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RE: I've figured out Nintendo'd 3rd Party Problem
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2003, 07:07:32 AM »
So, basically Nintendo is driving away crappy games? Sounds positive to me. I don't know why you complain about sales figures, but that might be the famous glass-half-full-half-empty view.
The "We don't advertise others" stance is fully understandable. After all, isn't it the job of the publisher to make the game public? That would be like M$ advertising "get Windows, you can play those games with it:"
What do we need more third party support for? To swamp the market with cheap games hoping for the big bucks? To get sequels that are just a mere shadow of the great original title? I honestly cannot see what more third parties would give us the current ones aren't already.

Offline ThePerm

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I've figured out Nintendo'd 3rd Party Problem
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2003, 07:57:27 AM »
hahah hostile creation you own gaunlet dark legacy...i couldnt get past the framerate....ugh
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Offline Cube323

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RE: I've figured out Nintendo'd 3rd Party Problem
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2003, 08:18:55 AM »
Dark Legacy looks a hell of a lot better on GC than it does on ps2.  I have played both.  It seems almost everything that comes out on both ps2 and GC, looks far better and loads faster on GC.  


Offline Ninja X

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I've figured out Nintendo'd 3rd Party Problem
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2003, 09:18:32 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: KDR_11k

What do we need more third party support for? To swamp the market with cheap games hoping for the big bucks? To get sequels that are just a mere shadow of the great original title? I honestly cannot see what more third parties would give us the current ones aren't already.


Don't be so narrow-minded.  Reasons exist on why we need support, the most important of them all is to giving GCN a chance of fighting Sony for the next-generation.

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Offline yellowfellow

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RE: I've figured out Nintendo'd 3rd Party Problem
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2003, 08:44:11 AM »
i agree with john squire and strell completely.  the problem is not a problem of maturity (as we all once thought), i mean we have mature games now, good ones.  the problem is a problem of nintendo.  people buy GC for the simple reason to play nintendo games. the reason why everyone though nintendo had a poor e3 showing is because the company (nintendo) did not show anything, did not announce anything, did not surprise with anything.  it's as if they stepped back and allowed the third parties show off their stuff.  the games were there: MGS: TS, FF: CC, FZero GX, RE: 4, RL III, Soul Calibur, Prince of Persia... all games taht probably would have been overshadowed by a nintendo AAA title.

i mean, why did Sony and MS have better showings? sure they had some good games, but they were all thrid party as well... but that's all people expected.  there were no game announcements by the two companies and no one was expecting any.  people in the nintendo camp need to realize this.

and here lies the problem as to why nintendo will never be mainsteam and why 3rd party games don't sell on nintnedo systems.  john squires last sentence summed it up best: GC is the nintendo console.  and that's really what it is, people buy nintendo consoles for nintendo games.  3rd parties know this, they know that nintendo gamers are SO jaded that if a camera isn't tight enough, if control isn't perfect enough, if anything isn't nintendo enough it;s dismissed as simple rubish.  not to say that alot out there isn't rubish, but much is overlooked.
unless nintendo does something different, they will never be the mainstream console.  they will always be the nintendo console.  unless nintendo makes the next system, partnered, with say sony they won't be a mainstream console. the big N knows this as well, why does GC have no DVD capabilities, why did they emphasize the lower price point? because nintendo knows that everyone and their mother has a PS2 and they wanted everyone and their mother to have a GC as well.  fromt he start nintendo was never competing with sony, they were trying to coexist with sony.  they used this generation to build 3rd party alliances while trying to get into peoples homes to remind them that nintendo games are fun.

frankly, i'm fine with my GC.  i bought it to play nintendo games and exclusives that intice me.  i think everyone needs to realize that nintendo is unique and really are not in competition with anyone else.  they have their own little nintendo market and are slowly ebbing into other areas.  simply put, nintendo will never relase a GTA and if you complain that you're "giving up on nintendo" then f ucking give it up and go get a damn PS2.

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Offline RickPowers

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RE: I've figured out Nintendo'd 3rd Party Problem
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2003, 09:56:30 AM »
The problem is that Nintendo is a GAMES company, and a very good one at that.  They raise the bar with nearly every release.  Gamers are choosy, and a GameCube owner faced with buying a Nintendo title that they can be reasonably assured is high-quality, or something else ... they'll usually pick Nintendo.

For Sony and Microsoft, they have fewer first-party titles, so there's more room for third-parties to shine.
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Offline Kellk

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I've figured out Nintendo'd 3rd Party Problem
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2003, 10:08:07 AM »
So none of these problems come from lack of online capability and DVD playback?
Also, I don't believe the theory adequately explains why excellent sports titles from EA and Sega don't sell well on Gamecube.  It must be more than just the quality of the third party titles.

Offline Plugabugz

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I've figured out Nintendo'd 3rd Party Problem
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2003, 01:05:44 PM »
Well here at least, the problem lies with lack of outward identification, and they're release dates are *extremely ungrateful* European PAL release of high-profile games.

USA and Japan get releases months before we do in the UK.
The lack of advertising - Xbox announced their price drop to £129 and there is visible non-audible advertising all over the place saying so.

Nintendo release Zelda, and there is nohing apart from small adverts on TV. I see nothing about the gamecube, or any second or third party games. Basically, I would like to see and hear Nintendo all over the place. Make them visible.

Visibility = Increased Sales = Increased Profitibility?

Offline yellowfellow

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I've figured out Nintendo'd 3rd Party Problem
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2003, 01:58:48 PM »
i don't think that that interest really exists in most nintendo gamers minds (sports games).  i believe that if you were to tally the number of nintendo owners interested in most sports games, it would probably not be as high a percentage as say PS2.  additionally, if you were to tally how many multiple platform owning gamers, who are interested in sports games, would buy the GC version over other versions, i'm sure the stat would be low as well (controllers not condusive to sports games, less features normally).  these i think are the reasons why sports games do not sell on nintendo platforms.

as for online and DVD, i feel online is hardly and issue as many gamers think it's cool, but nothing more and DVD playback, well half think it was stupid and half don't... my PS2 has a DVD player so i'm glad that the GC was cheaper...

like rick said nintendo is a very good games company... that is their stance.  that was their motive all along, to sell games... not push the advent of DVD like sony and not to invade your living room like microsoft.

edit: and i'm totally not disagreeing with you too, i'm just elaborating on those factors  
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Offline Kellk

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RE: I've figured out Nintendo'd 3rd Party Problem
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2003, 02:22:54 PM »
Don't necessarily disagree.  I'm just explaining that there are more factors that affect why 3rd party software doesn't sell so well on Gamecube.

Offline GoHuskers

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I've figured out Nintendo'd 3rd Party Problem
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2003, 03:13:33 PM »
I'm glad EA makes NCAA Football for the gamecube, but I just wish that they would make a college basketball game for it too. They wouldn't even have to worry about people buying sega's NCAA bball game because sega doesn't make any sports games for the gamecube anymore.

Offline Samwise Gamgee

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I've figured out Nintendo'd 3rd Party Problem
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2003, 08:04:31 PM »
you are so right! i agree with everything you sed! gamecube owners have it for nintendo games! why do you think sonic sold so well? b/c every1 who owned the council loved sonic vs mario back in the day! and sonic on nintendo sold like crazy! same if all of a sudden nintendo went 3rd party and sold on other systems! mario would kill on ps2!

but when i think now, nintendo can secure a cuncil to be #1 if they went second party! like say microsoft bought nintendo, i think they would have a good chance of takin the buisness! same as if nintendo became second party to sony, there is no chance microsoft would survive!
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Offline nolimit19

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I've figured out Nintendo'd 3rd Party Problem
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2003, 08:27:41 PM »
there is no way i am reading all that, but i agree with the 1st sentence....chances are that i have heard it all before, and its probably true. i have a whole lot of 3rd party games though. i am not one of the people that only buys nintendo games. i do think they have made the best games ever, and still do so, but there are other companies that have good games too. i have like 7 nintendo 1st or second party games, and like 14 3rd party games...and i have sold 3(for a total of 17). i am happy with the cube though...and about half of my 3rd party games are exclusive. i would say thats a pretty good mix. nintendo should just keep making great games and get some good 3rd party exclusives everynow and then. to me there game line up right now, is as good as it needs to be. the only thing seperating it from first place is image.
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Offline Strell

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I've figured out Nintendo'd 3rd Party Problem
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2003, 09:20:21 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kellk
So none of these problems come from lack of online capability and DVD playback?
Also, I don't believe the theory adequately explains why excellent sports titles from EA and Sega don't sell well on Gamecube.  It must be more than just the quality of the third party titles.


Yea, I forgot, EA and Sega are making lots of movies these days...

As far as online goes, NIntendo said "let the companies do what they want."  Nintendo doesn't want to put up a billion dollar network and then lose several million a month.  

Sports.  Ps2 = more users = more sales (I already said this).  Xbox is a bit harder to judge, but I'm guessing that if most XBox gamers own a PC, and they can get the (*cough better*) PC iteration of a game, they can save money towards sports games that play better on consoles.  Plus the Xbox crowd is supposely "hip" and "cool" and "old," so that might have something to do with it.  And besides, if you've bought one iteration of Madden, you've played them all.  So then you have Madden version 2.0293029823 alpha omega bettar+graphics versus Zelda.  No contest.



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Offline John Squire

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I've figured out Nintendo'd 3rd Party Problem
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2003, 08:06:45 AM »