Topic: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker

[oohhboy]

I'm sure someone here already posted that video of that same phenomenon in the prequel trilogy.

This is not a good thing if you are doing prequel level mistakes decades later or didn't learn anything from the last movie. If their aim is to make the prequels look good they are doing a smashing job.

[pokepal148]

[BlackNMild2k1]

I wish any of this appealed to me at all..... this trailer seriously does nothing for me.
the last few movies (I didn't watch Solo yet) really do absolutely nothing for me.

But it's supposedly selling 45% more than Endgame on Atom Tickets, so carry on.

Those two fighting gifs though. LOL.
That's part of my immersion problem. LOL

[Adrock]

The lightsaber criticism applies to every lightsaber duel even in everyone’s beloved original trilogy. Watch Luke and Vader just clash laser swords in Return of the Jedi. They’re not even trying to try to hit each other. Luke is supposed to be a Jedi Master but he’s just wildly swinging all over the goddamn place. It’s admittedly silly when you zero in on it and slow it down.

Point being, if you already have an ax to grind, it’s easy to find fault in something. However, it’s disingenuous to ignore that fault in a thing you like then criticize it in a thing you don’t like just because you like the one thing and not the other thing. This is pretty much why I can’t most criticisms of the sequel trilogy seriously. Once you point out the same **** in the original trilogy, people start rolling out the excuses cart.

[oohhboy]

Your first paragraph is BS you know right? The sword master they had would take serious issue with you. The first clash they are in each other's face and Vadar needs to do a close block.

Luke rages out on the first few swings before he closes on the second part. Luke is trying to anticipate where Vadar who is in near constant retreat and feints movement. Once he runs out of space at the railings it's all over. Mark Hamil's greatest bit of input for the sword fights is that he always double grip as he uses it like a heavy sword, he over swings a lot reflecting his lack of skill.

When both aren't within range but still within half sword length they have short taps rather than swings because they know they aren't in range and are testing each other before locking into a sword push.

The problem with the TRoS clips is it is so damn egregious, they are so far away they are slap fighting like two kids. The prequels had the decency to be within strike range. If this was a stand alone movie with zero legacy the action would still be roundly mocked. Your underlying defence is vaporous because of this as "What about this" isn't a defence. Mistakes elsewhere does not excuse mistakes made here. It's like saying some other person did this crime so I can do the same crime.

[oohhboy]

I wish any of this appealed to me at all..... this trailer seriously does nothing for me.
the last few movies (I didn't watch Solo yet) really do absolutely nothing for me.

But it's supposedly selling 45% more than Endgame on Atom Tickets, so carry on.

Those two fighting gifs though. LOL.
That's part of my immersion problem. LOL

The tweet is lies, damn lies and statistics.

https://twitter.com/tvisgreat/status/1186452503942045696

That’s because Atom Tickets is actually working tonight unlike the morning Endgame came out.

[Adrock]

Your first paragraph is BS you know right? The sword master they had would take serious issue with you. The first clash they are in each other's face and Vadar needs to do a close block.

It isn’t. Nice though. I’m not willing to discuss this at length with you because you’re, you know, you on these boards. I’ll go as far as posting some gifs when I get home. I can’t make them on my phone.

[broodwars]

I find Threepio's line about "saying goodbye to my friends" rather eye-rolling considering how little screentime he's shared with any of the characters in the new trilogy. I guess Threepio's relationship can be filed alongside Rey's Jedi training in the realm of character growth occurring completely off-screen.

As for the trailer, it's a Star Wars trailer. I'm not sure we've ever had a bad one, regardless of the quality of the end product.

[oohhboy]

I re-watched it just to type up the response. You don't need to post them and if you have to make them the errors didn't warranted it unlike the other movies. No one has to make a prequel gif given how ubiquitous they are. The clips are cut and looped to perfection.

You can't dodge the fact that your underlying defence is bunk and posting comparisons isn't going to help you. It's garbage in, garbage out.

You keep thinking I go around looking for this stuff but I don't have to. I am not even shooting fish in a barrel, it's getting served up on a plate.

[UncleBob]

>It's garbage in, garbage out.

This perfectly sums up any attempt at a conversation regarding movies with oohhboy.

[oohhboy]

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/other-sports/news/how-real-was-the-swordsmanship-in-the-star-wars-movies/8nbimfd40ku019fdcqb4iz462

RotJ relevant quote:

The Luke-Vader fights of "Empire" and "Jedi" were directed by Bob Anderson, without doubt the greatest sword choreographer of all time. He also did "The Lord of the Rings," "Highlander," "The Princess Bride" and "Mark of Zorro," to name but a few, and was an Olympic fencer. He actually wore the Vader costume for some of the fighting, because Dave Prowse couldn't master the moves. Bob was a true sword master and could depict any style, but his personal training was in European sabre, and it shows in the fights.

Bob's fights are for me the perfect blend of realism and showmanship. The sword movements tend to be a little exaggerated for visual effect, but they always have a martial purpose. The beat/disengage reverse cut that Vader uses to take off Luke's hand is, in my opinion, the best move in cinema sword history. It's not only technically great, it's a move that would only really work with a lightsaber.

The rest of the article is a good read. It also ends with this gem

I haven't seen the new one yet. I'm going on Sunday, but the cross-guard lightsaber already has me a little worried.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Well, I'm not trying to derail any HYPE from anyone regarding the SW series, but I've watched all the theatrical releases, outside of Solo, and I"ll likely watch this new one as well, maybe even in the theater, but the series just does not capture me. at all.
The movie will go on to make over $1B and most fans will hopefully be happy with it, but I've realized that SW just isn't my thing

The tweet is lies, damn lies and statistics.

https://twitter.com/tvisgreat/status/1186452503942045696

That’s because Atom Tickets is actually working tonight unlike the morning Endgame came out.

LOL. When I first saw the "news" I was thinking "Well, Fandango hasn't said ****, and I'm sure they dwarf Atom tickets....

besides, every site was crippled by traffic on the release of Endgame. I didn't hear anything about any of that for this movie... but I also didn't know when the tickets went on sale, so it's possible I just missed the HYPE train all together.

[Adrock]

Yeah, I rewatched it as well. And quite honestly, this:

if you have to make them the errors didn't warranted it unlike the other movies.

is some of the weakest **** I’ve ever seen from you. Just because someone hasn’t made the gifs yet doesn’t make the point invalid. The fact that you’re even trying to conflate them is sad.

You keep thinking I go around looking for this stuff but I don't have to. I am not even shooting fish in a barrel, it's getting served up on a plate.

You do though. And we’ve caught you numerous times flat-out unwilling to do a simple google search to fact-check claims you make. That’s as far as I’m going to take that particularly if you truly believe in your heart that you don’t.

You’ve brought up my “underlying defense” twice now so let’s address that:

If this was a stand alone movie with zero legacy the action would still be roundly mocked. Your underlying defence is vaporous because of this as "What about this" isn't a defence. Mistakes elsewhere does not excuse mistakes made here. It's like saying some other person did this crime so I can do the same crime.

1. I’ve stated numerous times that I like but don’t love Star Wars. I don’t care about its legacy. If I think something is worthy of criticism, I’ll criticize it. This has been my MO for 13 years on NWR alone. We’re on a Nintendo message board. Who hasn’t criticized that company here? Don’t come at me with that you-would-mock-it-if-it-wasn’t-Star-Wars nonsense. That is demonstrably untrue.

2. I’m not defending it at all. I’m indifferent, ambivalent at best. I very specifically said:

The lightsaber criticism applies to every lightsaber duel even in everyone’s beloved original trilogy. Watch Luke and Vader just clash laser swords in Return of the Jedi. They’re not even trying to try to hit each other. Luke is supposed to be a Jedi Master but he’s just wildly swinging all over the goddamn place. It’s admittedly silly when you zero in on it and slow it down.

To me, it’s silly in all the movies (Vader murdering fools in Rogue One notwithstanding as it wasn’t a duel). I’m here for the ride so I live with it. The frustrating bit to me is selective criticism which was the entire point of the post you’re taking umbrage with.

[oohhboy]

Given how close to the wire with the massive reshoots, the astronomical premium for short order VFX/CGI I wouldn't be surprised the movie alone cost $500 million. $1B at the box office isn't going to be enough. "Normal" sequel drop off is most certainly in play and TLJ factor is clear with Solo.

Beyond just the box office money TRoS far more importantly has to bring back the brand which is undeniably wounded. They need to get merch moving, people to go to the SW shopping mall, to be the evergreen money tree Lucas had. TRoS would have to be the most absolute masterpiece, the literal greatest movie released since the invention of movies, like transcendent, make the Sistine chapel look like trash. So not happening in any universe.

RE: light sabres

I literally posted the article and relevant quote regards to OT from a relevant professional. Are you telling me one of the, if not the greatest sword master/choreographer of the time had Vadar and Luke swing around like the idiots in PT or sequel? Read the article, it has some good insights.

How many decades has the internet had to make said gifs and be available one google away? Posting PT sword loop is a copy paste away. As neigh infinite as the internet is, not only did someone had to care enough to do that, others had to perpetuate it. The context to it is so wide spread it doesn't even a caption. Shorty spoke of it and pokepal148 posted it less than 30 minutes later.

Instead of "Make my own gifs" I am sure if the light sabre problem with OT was that significant there would be a legit video or article out there with relevant professionals a google away for you to bring up.

The bad action in the sequels and shown again in TRoS is indicative of the lack of quality, the sloppiness. This applies to any movie. You have stunt people just dying of embarrassment from the TLJ fight. I can post the video if you like with the relevant time stamp.

[Adrock]

I literally posted the article and relevant quote regards to OT from a relevant professional. Are you telling me one of the, if not the greatest sword master/choreographer of the time had Vadar and Luke swing around like the idiots in PT or sequel? Read the article, it has some good insights.

That’s not what I’m telling you at all. And what is it about some you and instructing me to do homework in order to continue a conversation? Y’all have some weird expectations about having nerd discourse on the internet. The tweet you originally linked to stated:

they’re not even aiming for one another’s bodies they’re aiming so far away why am i laughing so hard

Again, this has happened in all lightsaber duels. It kind of has to sometimes because sword fights are really hard to pull off convincingly. Even one of my favorite sword fights in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon does this at times if for no other reason than Ang Lee thought it looked cool. Again, I’m in it for the ride, and I can suspend my disbelief. The times in movies in which body parts were aimed for typically results in stabbing or (especially in Star Wars) dismemberment. In the article you quoted:

The sword movements tend to be a little exaggerated for visual effect, but they always have a martial purpose.

Yep. When the movements are exaggerated, it loses some of that martial effect since a professional wouldn’t do that in a real duel. That’s okay. Surprise, movies have to cheat sometimes. I accept it, and it’s fine. I’m not going to take three seconds from a fucking trailer without context and slow it down then drag a movie I haven’t seen for it.

And since you keep bringing this up, I wanted to post some gifs to point out very specific moments in the Vader/Luke duel in which the characters are clearly not aiming for each other’s body instead of posting a video and saying, “Look at 0:46 and 0:54.” You, as expected, condescended and insulted me for wanting to provide an easier visual for you because for some reason, you can’t have a normal conversation with other people.

[Shorty McNostril]

The tweet is lies, damn lies and statistics.

https://twitter.com/tvisgreat/status/1186452503942045696

That’s because Atom Tickets is actually working tonight unlike the morning Endgame came out.

I knew there must have been something else to that.  I expect this will do well but I don't think it'll end up anywhere even close to Endgame. Unless this turns out to be a seriously amazing movie and has serious legs.  I do very much enjoy Mr Abrams's work but I don't think any movie maker out there would be able to fix what was broken and wrap it all up in the same movie.

[oohhboy]

Bob's fights are for me the perfect blend of realism and showmanship. The sword movements tend to be a little exaggerated for visual effect, but they always have a martial purpose.

You can't cut a quote like that. The first sentence is inseparable from the second.

Which brings us to

The Darth Maul three-way duel in Phantom looks nice, is partially based on wushu, particularly toward the end, but is martially ridiculous. There are about 20 moments in the fight when one of the combatants has a clear unopposed opportunity to bop someone else on the head and instead twirls a blade behind their back (a lethal mistake in a real fight) or spins it in their wrist. Most of the blows seem aimed at each other's weapons, rather than parts of their bodies. Pirouetting attacks become the norm.

That is one of the big differences between OT and PT/ST. TRoS is so slack they can't even be bothered to hide it. You put your best footage in the trailer and if that is the best they have, it is going to be dire. The quality gap is massive. PT/ST is bad, trying to rubbish OT to make them look better is bad.

The guy is not above pointing at errors in OT

Both fighters are cagey and spend more time probing and watching each other than swinging their swords around. Obi Wan does one ridiculous back-turning pirouette, but otherwise it's all pretty solid, and heavily reminiscent of Kurosawa's samurai movies.

The stickiness of the blades was noticeable in "A New Hope," but became more pronounced as the movies progressed, although it was not applied consistently. Another thing that was not applied consistently was the implied weight of a lightsaber, which seemed tiny in "A New Hope," quite heavy in "Return of the Jedi," and then became light again for the prequels.

If the error is them whiffing a swing he would have said so.

And since you keep bringing this up, I wanted to post some gifs to point out very specific moments in the Vader/Luke duel in which the characters are clearly not aiming for each other’s body instead of posting a video and saying, “Look at 0:46 and 0:54.” You, as expected, condescended and insulted me for wanting to provide an easier visual for you because for some reason, you can’t have a normal conversation with other people.

It was never going to help you because your assessment is not going to trump expert testimony. You need to bring equally strong evidence to the table.

OT isn't above criticism but the sabre fights aren't where the flaws are. If you were going to post an error at least use the "Force kick". I found it within 10 seconds because it is an significant error/goof.

https://preview.redd.it/ambzn45nh8u21.gif?format=mp4&s=56e4172cf6300bd59300ffd645cd2dbf15da7c02

[ThePerm]

I was reading some Orville stuff earlier in this thread, and I'm going to side with Ooohboy here. Which, is odd because in the Orville thread we're totally at odds. The first 2-3 episodes of had more sophomoric humor but then the show really got its sea legs down and really has great writing.

As far as light sabers go. This is a PG or PG-13 movie right? Maybe it doesn't matter so much. The fencing and sparing are going to be more fantastical. Here's what a more realistic fight looks like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJcqtaHuQaU

Though I think they should have more severed limbs in the Star Wars movies.

[Adrock]

You can't cut a quote like that. The first sentence is inseparable from the second.

I can and I did. "Bob's fights are for me the perfect blend of realism and showmanship." Why should I care if the writer believes this? You're really using someone's opinion to back your claims. K.

It was never going to help you because your assessment is not going to trump expert testimony. You need to bring equally strong evidence to the table.

Visual proof from the movie itself that describes the exact thing in the tweet you posted is not strong evidence for you? K.

You've been telling me I'm wrong before I even do anything. Do you know how ignorant that is? Maybe you don't? Regardless, since you are not willing to have a civil discourse here, this is a waste of my time. I've said my piece. If your best move is to basically say "You're wrong" and not actually address things I've written, we're done here. Best of luck to you.

[oohhboy]

If your conviction regarding the gifs are that strong post them and point out why it was a whiffle. Someone of that calibre would not make such obvious mistakes as egregious as PT/ST. With ESB/Jedi if it was left in there was a good reason. Skill level, emotional instability, confidence, physical ability, endurance, focus are factors that are shown on screen.

He gives expert opinion coupled with expert insights and he clearly makes his case. I defer to an expert in their field every time over myself and given the opportunity ask for clarity. Expert opinion can be used in court as evidence if the expert's credibility can be established. Do you really think I would take your opinion over his unless you presented something equally strong? If something was so obviously wrong I would have pointed it out myself.

I knew there must have been something else to that.  I expect this will do well but I don't think it'll end up anywhere even close to Endgame. Unless this turns out to be a seriously amazing movie and has serious legs.  I do very much enjoy Mr Abrams's work but I don't think any movie maker out there would be able to fix what was broken and wrap it all up in the same movie.

I smelled a rat, your gut feelings served you well. 45% over Endgame was an absurd number factored with everything we know. So I looked for additional information to parse the number as statistics vast majority of the time don't come with any parameters especially when it comes to marketing. It took a minute.

The task is literally impossible, the narrative irrecoverably broken. Then you have the shattered audience. The higher ups with their demands and contractual obligations. Mo money means mo problems as he effectively has infinite budget. The deadline. JJ might not even give a damn anymore as he is going to DC RIP. This is as far from normal as you can get.

[ThePerm]

I don't think JJ will be in charge of DC, just Superman. DC isn't going to try to do the Marvel thing anymore. The adaptation they've evolved is "Things are only connected if it's convenient" As time goes on these studios are going to be less reliant on theaters. Direct to home blockbusters are going to be force of reckoning in the future. Because of that the continuity model is going to become more like comics...or porn. There's going to be something for everyone.

[pokepal148]

There are plenty of inconsistencies and goofs in the original trilogy, including with the lightsaber duels.

Some of them were actually corrected in the special editions.

The Force Kick was especially amusing.

[nickmitch]

Star Wars threads stop being fun so quickly around here.

[BeautifulShy]

Star Wars threads stop being fun so quickly around here.

Its sad really.  I mean this series is suppose to bring people joy and enjoyment of a world that could be and about the underdog beating an oppressive regime.  Now it seems to be that people are upset because the series isn't directly catering to them or some pointless thing like fight mechanics in the movies.     But let me throw this out here have any of you that are critizing the lightsaber duals ever think that these Jedi and Sith are at the top of their game using the force and reacting quicker than needed so they are dodging where the lightsaber would have been? 

[oohhboy]

As far as light sabers go. This is a PG or PG-13 movie right? Maybe it doesn't matter so much. The fencing and sparing are going to be more fantastical. Here's what a more realistic fight looks like

Though I think they should have more severed limbs in the Star Wars movies.

The attention to detail the sword master brought in OT made it stand out, it gave it gravitas. Even as a kid that was something I could appreciate despite not being able to actualise it. PG 13 isn't an excuse to slack off.

The poor stunt guys as well as Daisy and Adam who couldn't keep up with the action in TLJ. They couldn't prep them enough, just shoved out there to dance. Stunts forced to do their thing in real time rather than being able to adapt to the actor's limitations off screen. Rian didn't give a ****.

Action in movies in general is pretty poor these days. Funny thing is of all the Marvel movies(DP excepted) the one I actually like has the most realism with The Winter Solider. That is Chris Evans going at it in the elevator, no CGI punchman in sight. The actors working hand in hand with stunts. This pretty much just gushing on WS.

https://youtu.be/bAxmIxGXMOY

John Wick has everyone put in the effort no matter who they were. As messy Atomic Blonde was Theron was putting herself out there. Berry smashed it in JW3. Tom Cruise speaks for himself. People can tell when they put the effort in, you are all like "DAAMMNN, that gotta hurt".

I don't think JJ will be in charge of DC, just Superman. DC isn't going to try to do the Marvel thing anymore. The adaptation they've evolved is "Things are only connected if it's convenient" As time goes on these studios are going to be less reliant on theaters. Direct to home blockbusters are going to be force of reckoning in the future. Because of that the continuity model is going to become more like comics...or porn. There's going to be something for everyone.

You are not going to have enough mass replication of theatre equivalent setup to push them aside. The mini theatres these days are pretty good but they can't overcome physics. It distorts well before the bang is a bang, it's just loudness which others are not going to appreciate. Screens can't match the projector other than resolution as it's all digital projection. We have a looonnng way to go before there is any reckoning like what happened to TV.

Star Wars threads stop being fun so quickly around here.

Its sad really.  I mean this series is suppose to bring people joy and enjoyment of a world that could be and about the underdog beating an oppressive regime.  Now it seems to be that people are upset because the series isn't directly catering to them or some pointless thing like fight mechanics in the movies.     But let me throw this out here have any of you that are critizing the lightsaber duals ever think that these Jedi and Sith are at the top of their game using the force and reacting quicker than needed so they are dodging where the lightsaber would have been? 

It's the lack of care to the point of flippant disregard. The Force is a terrible excuse, it's not a get out of jail free card. It's not just a "Star Wars" thing. If you did the same in another show people would react just as poorly. If the film maker doesn't care everything suffers.