Topic: Which was better: GameCube or Wii?

[Evan_B]

A game- especially a Japanese one, goodness gracious- like SMG that was well-received even by Western reviewers means that it could generally be well-liked. Again, your opinion on controls or content doesn't make a game memorable to anyone else. Your condescending tone actually implies that you're incredulous as to why someone else would enjoy the game- at least, that's how it appeared to me. That's just my opinion, though, and I'll respect you for disagreeing with how I perceived your writing style.

[Luigi Dude]

Sales back up my opinion.  The hype industry backs yours.  I'll trust my opinion on this one.

Mario Galaxy 1 has sold over 10 million copies and Galaxy 2 over 7 million.  If sales are what you're using to determine whats a classic then you've already destroyed your own argument.

[treecko1111]

You could show a game wall of text for each one to prove one is better, but obviously Mario is better on Wii, I personally enjoyed TP over WW (and, bonus, we got SS!)

Sorry, if I point out the obvious, but, Twilight Princess was originally only for the Gamecube, although it was a good game to start out with on the Wii.
As for the Mario comment, my opinion is that Sunshine is better, but I am rather biased towards the Gamecube as a generation seeing as though I grew up with those games.
But, Sonic is better (in my opinion) on Gamecube, because Sonic Adventure DX Director's cut was much better (and has better controls (and no werehog)) than Unleashed, Colors, Black Knight, or Secret Rings. Also, It had Chao. Enough said.
I think that the Gamecube and the Wii each have their high points, But to me, the Gamecube was better. Everyone has their own opinion, we should stop arguing over menial things such as this and just play.
 

[marty]

Sales back up my opinion.  The hype industry backs yours.  I'll trust my opinion on this one.

Mario Galaxy 1 has sold over 10 million copies and Galaxy 2 over 7 million.  If sales are what you're using to determine whats a classic then you've already destroyed your own argument.

That's not what I said but you still seem to have a hard time coming up with a reason why a series that trended downward is somehow becoming more and more popular.  Hint: It's not. 

[NWR_insanolord]

Sales mean nothing. Pretty much anyone who played them will tell you Galaxy 2 is just as good or better than the first one. There are lots of reasons it might have sold worse than the first.

[SixthAngel]

You could show a game wall of text for each one to prove one is better, but obviously Mario is better on Wii, I personally enjoyed TP over WW (and, bonus, we got SS!)

Sorry, if I point out the obvious, but, Twilight Princess was originally only for the Gamecube, although it was a good game to start out with on the Wii.

It was never originally only for the Gamcube, it was originally planned for the GC.  What system something is developed for at first has no bearing to what system "owns" the game.  It's development started out for the Gamecube but it was originally released on the Wii followed by the Gamecube release.  The Wii version was released first.  GC has no claim over Twilight Princess, although I think it is pretty much a wash since they both got them in a short amount of time.

I can't help but laugh at Marty.  The Wii is going to have a lot of classics that people look back on in the future.   The system released with a pack-in game that is going to be remembered as a classic.  I think these people troll other gaming websites too much cough:neogaf:cough and start to believe the small minority of extremely vocal Wii haters they see.

[Ian Sane]

WW had the most boring and loooong chore of a quest ever when it came to finding the triforce pieces.  You even had to get money to pay to read them before fishing around the world.  Nothing else comes close.  When speaking of cutting corners it also had dungeons obviously entirely cut out.

A person who likes the GC output more than the Wii either has nostalgia goggles on or they hate motion controls to such a degree that it is more important to them than the Wii's superior lineup in all types of games.

WW's chore quest was boring but it wasn't hard or frustrating to play.  In SS if you made one flub in a guardian section, tough ****, do the ENTIRE THING over again.  The Triforce quest in WW are impossible to fail at, you just have to put the time in.  I can see players getting outright stuck on the guardian bits.  And they do that **** FOUR TIMES.  I dreaded every single time I knew one of those was coming up.  It's one thing to stick useless filler in a game but it's even worse if you make it difficult and allow zero margin of error!  Oh and SS also had this annoying bird flying quest that I had to complete to continue that I had to get my brother to beat for me because I couldn't accomplish **** with the broken ass motion controls.  It was the fuckin' manta ray level from SMG only you could not skip it and proceed like you could in Mario.  I'm not a big WW fan, it just never truly pissed me off like SS occasionally would.
 
I don't have nostalgia goggles on.  I fall into the category of those the hate motion control.  It isn't like some spiteful bias.  I legitmately find the imprecise, awkward, wishy-washy, slippery and prone-to-go-off-when-you-don't-want-it-to nature of motion controls seriously damaged every single game I played that had it and did not provide traditional controls as an option.  I'm used to playing Mario where you push the button and he does what you want.  Having him sometimes not do the move I told him to do or sometimes do the move when I don't is NOT FUN and is clearly inferior to what I had before.  If you're to make me learn something new it better be superior to what it was before.  I learned to use the analog stick in Super Mario 64 and the clicky analog triggers in Super Mario Sunshine because that improved the control I had over Mario.  But something that is just a different and less precise way to do what I did before?  **** that.  If someone showed you a car with a new way to steer that provided zero advantage over a steering wheel and was actually less responsive would you want to switch to driving in that manner?  I highly doubt it.
 
I think years from now when Nintendo starts re-releasing the old Wii titles they'll put in normal controls in the games that should have offered it and anyone who plays it will wonder why they ever put up with waggle at all.  The pointer games will likely hold up favourably but the waggle games will be snickered at like cheesy FMV is made fun of today.

[marty]

Sales mean nothing. Pretty much anyone who played them will tell you Galaxy 2 is just as good or better than the first one. There are lots of reasons it might have sold worse than the first.

If sales mean nothing, go tell that to the folks in the sales thread.  Sales mean a lot more than a review score.  To suggest otherwise is to ignore the fact that games get made to be sold, not to generate nice words.  Do you think Ubisoft really cares what the metacritic scores for the Just Dance games are?


SMG didn't generate interest in more SMG, that's why SMG2 didn't sell as well.  It has nothing to do with review scores or which game people think is better.

[Luigi Dude]

That's not what I said but you still seem to have a hard time coming up with a reason why a series that trended downward is somehow becoming more and more popular.  Hint: It's not. 

So now it's if the latest game sold less it's not classic and the first one isn't a classic either?  So by your logic Ocarina of Time isn't a classic since Majora's Mask sold far less.  Pokemon Red/Blue isn't a classic since Gold/Silver sold less.  The original Super Mario Bros can't be a classic since Bros 2 and 3 sold far less on the same system.

Do you see just how flawed your logic is getting.

[marty]

That's not what I said but you still seem to have a hard time coming up with a reason why a series that trended downward is somehow becoming more and more popular.  Hint: It's not. 

So now it's if the latest game sold less it's not classic and the first one isn't a classic either?  So by your logic Ocarina of Time isn't a classic since Majora's Mask sold far less.  Pokemon Red/Blue isn't a classic since Gold/Silver sold less.  The original Super Mario Bros can't be a classic since Bros 2 and 3 sold far less on the same system.

Do you see just how flawed your logic is getting.

you don't read what I write and if you do, you clearly don't understand it.  It's annoying.  YOU are annoying.  Go troll sixthangel, he made a prediction that the Wii will have many classic games.  Or go play some "classic" Wii Music or whatever.

[NWR_insanolord]

Sales mean nothing. Pretty much anyone who played them will tell you Galaxy 2 is just as good or better than the first one. There are lots of reasons it might have sold worse than the first.

If sales mean nothing, go tell that to the folks in the sales thread.  Sales mean a lot more than a review score.  To suggest otherwise is to ignore the fact that games get made to be sold, not to generate nice words.  Do you think Ubisoft really cares what the metacritic scores for the Just Dance games are?


SMG didn't generate interest in more SMG, that's why SMG2 didn't sell as well.  It has nothing to do with review scores or which game people think is better.

Super Mario Galaxy 2 didn't sell well because it was released in 2010. There were a lot more gamers buying Wii games in 2007 than 2010. It probably didn't help that on the surface it looked like a rehash; you needed to play it to appreciate what new stuff it did. It was also released in the first half of a really stacked year, which meant it got less consideration in the busy holiday season, and only a few months after another Mario game, which most likely cannibalized its sales. As I said, there are a lot of reasons it might have sold less.

Regardless of that, sales don't matter at all in the context of this discussion, pertaining to what makes a game a classic. Pikmin 2 sold like ****, well worse than the first, but you'll find tons of people calling it a classic because the sales are irrelevant, what matters is what people who played it thought of it.

[Ian Sane]

I'm guessing this sales logic is that a game's sales don't truly reflect popular opinion of it because numerous people might have bought it and disliked it.  If the sales for the sequel are significantly lower it would suggest that a fair amount of people didn't like the first game enough to buy future games with the same style of gameplay.

Personally I don't care about sales.  A game's legacy is largely based on how it is regarded years after its release.  Sometimes crap games sell and good games don't.  But ten years later that same good game might be considered a classic while the high-selling crap game is regarded as a joke or has just been forgotten.

[marty]

Sales mean nothing. Pretty much anyone who played them will tell you Galaxy 2 is just as good or better than the first one. There are lots of reasons it might have sold worse than the first.

If sales mean nothing, go tell that to the folks in the sales thread.  Sales mean a lot more than a review score.  To suggest otherwise is to ignore the fact that games get made to be sold, not to generate nice words.  Do you think Ubisoft really cares what the metacritic scores for the Just Dance games are?


SMG didn't generate interest in more SMG, that's why SMG2 didn't sell as well.  It has nothing to do with review scores or which game people think is better.

Super Mario Galaxy 2 didn't sell well because it was released in 2010. There were a lot more gamers buying Wii games in 2007 than 2010. It probably didn't help that on the surface it looked like a rehash; you needed to play it to appreciate what new stuff it did. It was also released in the first half of a really stacked year, which meant it got less consideration in the busy holiday season, and only a few months after another Mario game, which most likely cannibalized its sales. As I said, there are a lot of reasons it might have sold less.

Regardless of that, sales don't matter at all in the context of this discussion, pertaining to what makes a game a classic. Pikmin 2 sold like ****, well worse than the first, but you'll find tons of people calling it a classic because the sales are irrelevant, what matters is what people who played it thought of it.

The Wii was still sold out at times in 2009, to say that the peak number of potential sales had passed by 2010 makes no sense--most people that bought a Wii did so after 2007.  Everyone knows CoD games ARE rehashes and that doesn't stop 20+ million sales every year (with increasing sales every year), if SMG isn't outsold by 2, it's because people didn't want more SMG 1, rehash or not (and if it's not, well, name it something else).  SMG2 and NSMBWii are 2 totally different games, to suggest that someone played a 2d mario game and that satisfied their desire to play a 3d mario game doesn't hold water.  NO 3d mario game has ever sold like a 2d mario game, people clearly understand that they're 2 different genres.


Classics are games that remain relevant and even gain relevance as time goes on.  It has nothing to do with being well regarded in the company of its contemporaries (although it might help find the game an audience)-- like most well rated and even good selling games.  I'd hardly call the Band Camp/Guitar Hero games classic since the music genre has pretty much died out after a few years and I don't know anyone who still buys or even plays those games anymore.  People raved about how good Okami was but it still helped put Clover out of business.


Sales matter because it give a game an initial base who the game might stay relevant to.  The Pikmin games were never relevant.  I'm not saying they're bad games but, unless some future Pikmin game becomes some smash hit, I don't see them springing back out of irrelevance.  I mean, is Chibi Robo a classic?  1080 Avalanche?  No, they were just okay games that most people didn't play when they were new, aren't playing now, and never will.  It's not some terrible curse, they just aren't classics.

[NWR_insanolord]

But I know if I did a poll on these forums on whether Pikmin 2 was a classic the result would be overwhelmingly in favor of yes. In the same way that Radiant Silvergun is regarded as a classic despite being on the fucking Saturn and selling 14 copies, low sales don't prevent something from being a classic.

You're making far too many assumptions for why Galaxy 2 sold the way it did. And even if you're right, 7 million people still wanted another Galaxy game, which seems like plenty of people.

I'm sorry you don't like the Galaxy games, but you are in the minority. Many people will regard it as a classic, and ten years from now when sites are doing retrospectives on the Wii they will be listed as games to go back and play, because they are great games. History will be on my side.

[Kairon]

Van Gogh had practically zero initial base for his work when he died. Now his paintings are so revered they needed to post a security guard to keep my mom away from one of 'em.

Or if you want videogames, think of the small but fervent fanbases still carrying torches for Psychonauts or Beyond Good & Evil. Or even Nintendo's own beloved, and according to NOA, unbankable, Mother series. Just because a game is unsucccessful at launch does not mean it won't be inaugurated into the pantheon of "classics" that exists in gamerdom.

The truth is that only time will tell what games survive in our hearts and minds ten years from now. Some games that sell millions will vanish completely (for example, who was Antonio Salieri?). Others games ignored at their release, just like Van Gogh's Sunflower paintings were, could survive the ages to finally win widespread acclaim and appreciation. For example, Phoenix Wright finally hit it big when he got ported to the DS, his entire history as a GBA series is more or less forgotten.

Until the years do their work on both deserving and undeserving examples though, your guess as to what will end up what is as good as mine.

[Chozo Ghost]

you are in the minority.

I'm not taking either side in this SMG debate, but I just want to say that even though 7 million people may have bought SMG2 there was still 7 billion (give or take) people who did not, so its kinda debatable what can be considered a minority or majority here.

Also, just because a game sells well doesn't necessarily mean people love it. Millions of people bought Wii Play and it was the best selling non-pack in title on the Wii, but that doesn't necessarily mean people loved it or that it is classic material.

[NWR_insanolord]

By minority I of course did not mean of the entire population of the planet, but rather of the people who played the games.

[Ceric]

By the Planet definition me being a White Male is a Minority.  Where are my Handouts and Large sway?

[marty]

But I know if I did a poll on these forums on whether Pikmin 2 was a classic the result would be overwhelmingly in favor of yes. In the same way that Radiant Silvergun is regarded as a classic despite being on the fucking Saturn and selling 14 copies, low sales don't prevent something from being a classic.

You're making far too many assumptions for why Galaxy 2 sold the way it did. And even if you're right, 7 million people still wanted another Galaxy game, which seems like plenty of people.

I'm sorry you don't like the Galaxy games, but you are in the minority. Many people will regard it as a classic, and ten years from now when sites are doing retrospectives on the Wii they will be listed as games to go back and play, because they are great games. History will be on my side.

Your definition of a classic is basically: if 1 person thinks a game is a classic then it's a classic.  Why bother even arguing such a thing then?  The vast majority of Wii owners passed over SMG 1 and even more ignored SMG 2.  Invent whatever reason you see fit to think that's a good thing for a games legacy.

[NWR_insanolord]

Virtually every game ever released was passed on by the vast majority of people who owned the system. The only real exception is stuff like Super Mario Bros. or Wii Sports that was packed in with the hardware.

A classic can't just be from one person, but you can be one with a lot less than 7 million.

[Chozo Ghost]

By minority I of course did not mean of the entire population of the planet, but rather of the people who played the games.

But the people who played the game and the people who bought it are largely one and the same, and there's no way to determine how many of those 7 million liked or disliked it.

You say that poster who disliked it is in the minority, but how do you really know that? I'm assuming he bought the game so he would be counted in that 7 million figure. Its very possible there are others who share his sentiments.

[NWR_insanolord]

I'm going to go ahead and assume that if a statistically significant proportion of the game's owners disliked it there probably would have been at least one of the 88 reviews the game got that gave it less than a 9.

I don't doubt that there are people who fit that description, but I've never personally run into one myself, since marty claims to have never played it.

[Luigi Dude]

Your definition of a classic is basically: if 1 person thinks a game is a classic then it's a classic.  Why bother even arguing such a thing then?  The vast majority of Wii owners passed over SMG 1 and even more ignored SMG 2.  Invent whatever reason you see fit to think that's a good thing for a games legacy.

The only videogames in history to sell to a majority of their console userbase is the original Super Mario Bros and Wii Sports because like insanolord said, they were packed in with the hardware.  But both games had sequels that sold much worse which by your previous logic with Mario Galaxy, means those games can't be classic either. 

So basically no game is a classic then.  According to your own definition, in order for a game to be considered a classic it has to sell to a majority of the systems userbase and have a sequel that sells just as good or better.  Since no game has ever done something like that, nothing can be a classic by your own words.

Once again, do you not realize how flawed your logic is?  Your saying nothing on the Wii will be considered a classic, for reasons that would make it impossible for any game on any system to be considered a classic.

[NWR_insanolord]

Yeah, Super Mario Bros. 3 only sold 18 million copies, which is less than half the 40 million that Super Mario Bros. sold. Clearly most people didn't like them very much.

[Evan_B]

GUH.

This argument. It is ridiculous.

What will be considered a classic will be the games that Video Gaming Opinion Eds ten years from now will put on their "Best Games of All Time" lists.